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Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid poll.


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Poll: Best and worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid. (506 member(s) have cast votes)

Who´s the best wheel to wheel racer on the grid?

  1. Vettel (24 votes [4.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  2. Webber (12 votes [2.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.37%

  3. Alonso (95 votes [18.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.77%

  4. Massa (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  5. Button (28 votes [5.53%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.53%

  6. Perez (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  7. Räikkönen (214 votes [42.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.29%

  8. Grosjean (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  9. Rosberg (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  10. Hamilton (117 votes [23.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.12%

  11. Hulkenberg (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  12. Gutierrez (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  13. Di Resta (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  14. Sutil (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  15. Maldonado (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  16. Bottas (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  17. Vergne (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  18. Ricciardo (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

  19. Other (2 votes [0.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.40%

Who´s the worst wheel to wheel racer on the grid?

  1. Vettel (22 votes [4.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.35%

  2. Webber (9 votes [1.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.78%

  3. Alonso (4 votes [0.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.79%

  4. Massa (24 votes [4.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  5. Button (5 votes [0.99%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  6. Perez (155 votes [30.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.63%

  7. Räikkönen (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  8. Grosjean (102 votes [20.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.16%

  9. Rosberg (7 votes [1.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.38%

  10. Hamilton (16 votes [3.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.16%

  11. Hulkenberg (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  12. Gutierrez (14 votes [2.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.77%

  13. Di Resta (5 votes [0.99%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  14. Sutil (3 votes [0.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.59%

  15. Maldonado (125 votes [24.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.70%

  16. Bottas (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  17. Vergne (1 votes [0.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.20%

  18. Ricciardo (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. Other (10 votes [1.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.98%

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#301 MaxisOne

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 14:32

Best, Hamilton and Raikonnen. But they have different styles of getting the job done. I will admit however Hamilton did get his reputation dinged with the Massa debacle.. .. on the other hand it takes two to tango and Massa was just not yielding when he should have. Raikkonnen is always clean and will set you up unwittingly.. as will Hamilton.. but Hamilton will be just a bit more aggressive when necessary.

 

Worst, Definately Maldonado by far with Perez a close second. I think Grosjean is getting a bad rap due to Hungary and his history of bad starts.. What i am evaluating is overtaking during the race.. not the free for all at the start.



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#302 Elissa

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 15:04

I am not underestimating that curve and I have seen drivers go side by side there many times. I also saw Sutil turn his wheel towards Kimi, making the contact. Why you can not see that is a mystery, in car video was posted. But my main issue is that you drag up incidents that has nothing to do with wheel to wheel racing in this thread, like nose-to-gearbox. The Sutil incident is valid here, but the others not.

 

You're making out that Sutil callously/maliciously turned into Kimi, I see two drivers fighting for position who when they've realised they were touching moved away from each, more so Sutil considering he had more track to move over. The steering inputs are minute. You're aruging the toss over something that's insignificant. If that's how you enjoy your time on these boards, you crack on. I've been very fair in saying you're entitled to your own opinion, you seem to be unable to let this go until I agree with you, I'm not going to agree as I don't see either one more guilty than the other (same as the Stewards).

 

As for the other incidents, AGAIN your opinion, I've explained how your definition of 'wheel to wheel' has grey areas, yet you've completely ignored it (post #295). I've made it perfectly clear anyone is entitled to their own opinions and interpretations of 'wheel to wheel' within reason, you seem to be unable to accept anything but your own opinion. Who's the unreasonable one here?........think about it. 

 

In future I'll stay out your way and likewise I expect the same. 


Edited by Elissa, 19 September 2013 - 15:34.


#303 ardbeg

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 16:19

The steering inputs are minute.
In future I'll stay out your way and likewise I expect the same.

Minute? That is a quite a decent amount in a F1 car but what's more important, the "minute" movement is in the wrong direction, intended to give Kimi less room. He succeeded and there as contact. I guess you stay out not only my way, but also every discussion where your claims can be easily refuted by footage.



#304 Jimisgod

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 16:53

Raikkonen or Alonso is best.

Hamilton has matured, but pre-2012 he was one of the worst offenders. You could bank on him being involved in a crash back then.

Vettel has yet to convince me.

As for worst. Grosjean or Maldonado. Something dumb always happens with them nearby.

#305 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 17:16

As some say Hamilton has matured a lot in this aspect. Not only regarding awareness, but also decission making and he´s way more clean now.

 

His decission making is way better. He doesn´t seem to be sending 50/50 moves anymore. It made him spectacular (Monza 2007, a ton of moves in Brazil 2007) but it wasn´t effective. He was failing to pull these moves often. But I can´t see him anymore doing nonsense stuff like Brazil 2007 turn 4 attempt. He has learned a lot about how to pick his fights.

 

And as I said, he´s cleaner. Long time since he gives people unnecesary squeezes (like in Spa 2011, Japan 2011, Monza 2008 on Webber and then Glock) or weaves down a straight.  

 

Kudos to him, he´s getting much better.



#306 AnR

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 18:16

Raikkonen and Alonso.

 

Hamilton and Vettel is getting there, why should Massa yeild?



#307 derstatic

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 18:42

Can't choose between Räikkönen and Alonso. Button just behind them. Then Hamilton, Vettel and Webbo.

 

I'm always nervous with Perez around other cars, same with Maldonado even if he seems to have improved. Grosjean also improved his performance.


Edited by derstatic, 19 September 2013 - 18:44.


#308 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:25

One of the mods voted for Raikkonen along with two others as the worst wheel to wheel racer. Thats kinda funny  :p



#309 DILLIGAF

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:50

Best: Hard to choose between Alonso or Raikkonen
Worst: Perez & Maldonado

#310 ANF

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:51

you do realize massa is driving the red car and he is pushed in the wall by senna?

:p
I realise they were coming up to a right-hand kink and that Senna was on the racing line. Not very clever of Massa to stick his nose into that closing gap.



#311 ardbeg

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:22

:p
I realise they were coming up to a right-hand kink and that Senna was on the racing line. Not very clever of Massa to stick his nose into that closing gap.

You are joking, right?



#312 ANF

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:31

You are joking, right?

No, I'm not.



#313 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:39

One of the mods voted for Raikkonen along with two others as the worst wheel to wheel racer. Thats kinda funny  :p

 

;-)

 

Yea, but seen that he voted for Maldonado as the best wtw-racer, one could safely guess that he got his vote mixed....



#314 f1motogp

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:57

The best is Raikonnen.
The worst is Webber.

Considering he is the oldest on the grid with many examples of crashing in to others Webber takes the cake off the hands of Maldotardo and Grosjean.
Massa, Maldotardo, Gros, Perez and Ricciardo have voted themselves as the best ones. :rotfl:

 



#315 Zoetrope

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:48

Best wheel-to-wheel action by a driver ever  :smoking: Or wheel-for-wheel is more accurate?

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=IxiV5WPCyLU



#316 LewDaMan

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:43

Hamilton best, from Alonso.

 

Worst? You can make a case for any of Perez, Grosjean or Maldonado. In the end I plumped for the latter because of both the amount of incidents he has had, wheel-to-wheel, and the sadly spectacular nature of a number of thos collisions. He seems an odd bloke too. Something about his eyes hints at an unpredictable character.

 

Actually, I'd be glad to see all three of Perez, Grosjean and Maldonado out of F1. I'm getting fed up with how often one or more of them causes an avoidable collision, to the point where it is detrimental to F1.



#317 ViMaMo

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 15:04

Maldonado's craziness wins :up:



#318 Hayden1

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 14:20

got the answer today- and i sounds like KIMI MATHIAS RAIKKONEN   hail to the king  :clap:



#319 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 18:58

Not coincidence that everytime Räikkönen and Button bump into each other in a racetrack something great happens. Awesome fight. Alonso´s start was stunning.



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#320 artista

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:03

agree, definitely not a coincidence. It doesn't matter which one is the one passing and which one is being passed, it's always beautiful to watch.



#321 SpaMaster

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:11

ok, and when was the last time you saw Alonso fail at this..On the contrary, he does it at every race on the first two laps..

Oh God, you don't like Raikkonen getting majority of votes and want to shove Alonso into everyone. Who said Alonso isn't good, it's just that Raikkonen is that extra bit :love: !

 


Edited by SpaMaster, 22 September 2013 - 19:23.


#322 Mauseri

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:18

Best wheel to wheel racer isn't the same as who has most over takes.

I voted Kimi, although he propably has not won most wheel to wheel fights or done most overtaking. But because he does some brilliant overtaking while hardly ever being blamed to a collision, and being not involved in too many either. It takes both skill and brain when to try overtaking and when to stick a move that cannot be backed off.



#323 Vesuvius

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:20

I voted Kimi, although he propably has not won most wheel to wheel fights or done most overtaking. But because he does some brilliant overtaking while hardly ever being blamed to a collision, and being not involved in too many either. It takes both skill and brain when to try overtaking and when to stick a move that cannot be backed off.


Kimi had most overtakings this season before todays race and he did at least four overtakes today(Di Resta,Qutierrez, Bottas and Button and only one was with drs)


Edited by Vesuvius, 22 September 2013 - 19:59.


#324 SpaMaster

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:21

Voted for the McLaren duo. .

:lol:

The same could be said for the Lotus duo as well. Mixed feelings for those teams! :p

 

Indeed and we only have to rewatch Monza to see Kimi get owned by Lewis, yet again, no surprise he'll win this poll as he's the most popular driver but if we look on track he isn't the best imo...

 

Martin Bundle commented during Monza that the Lotus was probably the 2nd best car to have (RBR aside) and yet Kimi got passed by Lewis and watched helplessly as he passed the cars in front too.

A positive inference from your post is: You acknowledge that Raikkonen is the most popular driver in an English forum. :o :smoking:  WOW!

                                                                                                                          (more popular than Hamilton)

 


Edited by SpaMaster, 22 September 2013 - 19:22.


#325 race addicted

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:53

Räikkönen is the best in wheel-to-wheel combats, and I've said that many times, and especially after his comeback actually. His ability to just hang on the outside -not letting go of a rival who's trying to squeeze him - is unrivaled IMO. He always sticks there, taking the long way around and often for a sequence of corners (think Texas last year). Also what he did today with Button, is also something I'm half prepared to call a Räikkönen-trademark; for a few laps he appears to prepare for a late braking maneuver, lining up, but then tucking back again. Then suddenly, he makes his move in a different place. A very old trick, but I think Räikkönen is doing the most.

 

Hamilton is also very good in close action, as is Webber I think (surprised to see him mentioned in the bad-group!)

 

The bad ones in my mind, is first Massa, he always speculates in that the driver he's fighting will have to give up, 'cause he's very happy to just breeze them off. Just a little too dirty too often. Perez has also been very questionable, but apart from his antics in Monaco this year, he's also had some nice fights (with Button among others) so maybe he's getting the hang of things.

...and then you have Maldonado.


Edited by race addicted, 22 September 2013 - 19:55.


#326 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:16

After his display today Raikkonen definitely deserves to be at the top of this poll. Amazing pass on Button.

#327 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 10:33

Not coincidence that everytime Räikkönen and Button bump into each other in a racetrack something great happens. Awesome fight. Alonso´s start was stunning.

 

agree, definitely not a coincidence. It doesn't matter which one is the one passing and which one is being passed, it's always beautiful to watch.

 

After his display today Raikkonen definitely deserves to be at the top of this poll. Amazing pass on Button.

 

Came here to say this but then found it already, basically. Said earlier in this thread how Jenson and Kimi are the top 2 for me in this regard and they didn't disappoint. :up:


Edited by Lights, 23 September 2013 - 10:33.


#328 xmoonrakerx

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:01

Kimi wins :clap: :clap:



#329 michaelmyers

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 15:17

Thought this could be relevant to this topic. The top overtakers followed by the most overtaken. Updated after Singapore. All we need now is a statistic of collisions and we can calculate the percentage of collisions per driver and have a scientificly sound answer to this!

 

Most overtakes:

1. Kimi Räikkönen 46

2. Felipe Massa 45

3. Mark Webber 45

4. Lewis Hamilton 41

5. Fernando Alonso 34

6. Jean-Eric Vergne 29

7. Romain Grosjean 28

8. Adrian Sutil 28

9. Nico Hülkenberg 27

10. Paul di Resta 25

11. Valtteri Bottas 25

12. Daniel Ricciardo 24

13. Nico Rosberg 21

14. Sergio Perez 19

15. Charles Pic 17

16. Esteban Gutierrez 17

17. Pastor Maldonado 17

18. Sebastian Vettel 16

19. Jenson Button 16

20. Giedo van der Garde 11

21. Max Chilton 7

22. Jules Bianchi 5

 

Most overtaken:

1. Valtteri Bottas 47

2. Sergio Perez 46

3. Jenson Button 45

4. Esteban Gutierrez 37

5. Giedo van der Garde 35

6. Max Chilton 33

7. Pastor Maldonado 32

8. Jules Bianchi 32

9. Nico Hülkenberg 28

10. Nico Rosberg 28

11. Daniel Ricciardo 27

12. Lewis Hamilton 23

13. Charles Pic 21

14. Romain Grosjean 21

15. Adrian Sutil 18

16. Paul di Resta 15

17. Jean-Eric Vergne 14

18. Kimi Räikkönen 11

19. Felipe Massa 11

20. Mark Webber 9

21. Fernando Alonso 6

22. Sebastian Vettel 4

 

Statistic: Michele Merlino

 

Source: http://www.ts.fi/moo...kausitilastossa


Edited by michaelmyers, 24 September 2013 - 15:22.


#330 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 15:23

Thought this could be relevant to this topic. The top overtakers followed by the most overtaken. Updated after Singapore

 

Most overtakes:

1. Kimi Räikkönen 46

2. Felipe Massa 45

3. Mark Webber 45

4. Lewis Hamilton 41

5. Fernando Alonso 34

6. Jean-Eric Vergne 29

7. Romain Grosjean 28

8. Adrian Sutil 28

9. Nico Hülkenberg 27

10. Paul di Resta 25

11. Valtteri Bottas 25

12. Daniel Ricciardo 24

13. Nico Rosberg 21

14. Sergio Perez 19

15. Charles Pic 17

16. Esteban Gutierrez 17

17. Pastor Maldonado 17

18. Sebastian Vettel 16

19. Jenson Button 16

20. Giedo van der Garde 11

21. Max Chilton 7

22. Jules Bianchi 5

 

Most overtaken:

1. Valtteri Bottas 47

2. Sergio Perez 46

3. Jenson Button 45

4. Esteban Gutierrez 37

5. Giedo van der Garde 35

6. Max Chilton 33

7. Pastor Maldonado 32

8. Jules Bianchi 32

9. Nico Hülkenberg 28

10. Nico Rosberg 28

11. Daniel Ricciardo 27

12. Lewis Hamilton 23

13. Charles Pic 21

14. Romain Grosjean 21

15. Adrian Sutil 18

16. Paul di Resta 15

17. Jean-Eric Vergne 14

18. Kimi Räikkönen 11

19. Felipe Massa 11

20. Mark Webber 9

21. Fernando Alonso 6

22. Sebastian Vettel 4

 

Statistic: Michele Merlino

 

Source: http://www.ts.fi/moo...kausitilastossa

What would add value to those stats is the number of incidents involved per driver whilst overtaking/being overtaken.



#331 grunge

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 18:02

Räikkönen is the best in wheel-to-wheel combats, and I've said that many times, and especially after his comeback actually. His ability to just hang on the outside -not letting go of a rival who's trying to squeeze him - is unrivaled IMO. He always sticks there, taking the long way around and often for a sequence of corners (think Texas last year). Also what he did today with Button, is also something I'm half prepared to call a Räikkönen-trademark; for a few laps he appears to prepare for a late braking maneuver, lining up, but then tucking back again. Then suddenly, he makes his move in a different place. A very old trick, but I think Räikkönen is doing the most.


Spot on on Raikkonen...its an old trick in the box but Kimi seems to have made it his own..threatening with an outbrake maneuver a couple of times until the rival starts defending the inside line regularly and then pulls off an 'on the outside' move when he least expects it,

A little surprised,Button isn't higher up in that list..I think he's brilliant when it comes to wheel to wheel battles.Last weekend's tussle with Raikkonen was evidence again of that.he made it as difficult for the Finn as was realistically possible in that situation but when the latter did pull off that outside move,Button gave him just enough room to make it through..Id actually loved to see the two go on and on but Jenson's rubber was just too worn out at that stage.

Edited by grunge, 24 September 2013 - 18:04.


#332 techspeed

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 19:22

A little surprised,Button isn't higher up in that list..I think he's brilliant when it comes to wheel to wheel battles.Last weekend's tussle with Raikkonen was evidence again of that.he made it as difficult for the Finn as was realistically possible in that situation but when the latter did pull off that outside move,Button gave him just enough room to make it through..Id actually loved to see the two go on and on but Jenson's rubber was just too worn out at that stage.

The problem is those statistics don't take into consideration what everyone is driving. Look at last weekend, Buttons worn out tyres means he added  5 to the number of times he was overtaken. It did show that Button and Raikkonen are amongst the top wheel to wheel racers, managing to race hard without taking each other off. Being able to race wheel to wheel is different to getting the most overtakes.

 

 

One of the top overtakers last year was Perez :eek:



#333 Avastrol

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 20:16

The thing with stats is to look at it from different approaches - then look at where they converge. Every approach has its share of factors that serve as 'noise.' For example in that table above Massa and Webber are shown to be among the best with 45 overtakes, and only 11/9 times overtaken, while looking at them in races they're clumsy. Doesn't mean that the analysis is junk, it just goes to show that there is no perfect statistical model in which we can fit the stats then show us a perfect result.



#334 scheivlak

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 20:28

The problem is those statistics don't take into consideration what everyone is driving. Look at last weekend, Buttons worn out tyres means he added  5 to the number of times he was overtaken. It did show that Button and Raikkonen are amongst the top wheel to wheel racers, managing to race hard without taking each other off. Being able to race wheel to wheel is different to getting the most overtakes.

 

 

One of the top overtakers last year was Perez :eek:

Yes, and it helps in those overtaking statistics if you don't Q to well   ;)

 

OTOH it doesn't help if you're on pole and make a good start or if you're always in the lead.......



#335 Afterburner

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:29

Thought this could be relevant to this topic. The top overtakers followed by the most overtaken. Updated after Singapore. All we need now is a statistic of collisions and we can calculate the percentage of collisions per driver and have a scientificly sound answer to this!

 

Most overtakes:

1. Kimi Räikkönen 46

2. Felipe Massa 45

3. Mark Webber 45

4. Lewis Hamilton 41

5. Fernando Alonso 34

6. Jean-Eric Vergne 29

7. Romain Grosjean 28

8. Adrian Sutil 28

9. Nico Hülkenberg 27

10. Paul di Resta 25

11. Valtteri Bottas 25

12. Daniel Ricciardo 24

13. Nico Rosberg 21

14. Sergio Perez 19

15. Charles Pic 17

16. Esteban Gutierrez 17

17. Pastor Maldonado 17

18. Sebastian Vettel 16

19. Jenson Button 16

20. Giedo van der Garde 11

21. Max Chilton 7

22. Jules Bianchi 5

 

Most overtaken:

1. Valtteri Bottas 47

2. Sergio Perez 46

3. Jenson Button 45

4. Esteban Gutierrez 37

5. Giedo van der Garde 35

6. Max Chilton 33

7. Pastor Maldonado 32

8. Jules Bianchi 32

9. Nico Hülkenberg 28

10. Nico Rosberg 28

11. Daniel Ricciardo 27

12. Lewis Hamilton 23

13. Charles Pic 21

14. Romain Grosjean 21

15. Adrian Sutil 18

16. Paul di Resta 15

17. Jean-Eric Vergne 14

18. Kimi Räikkönen 11

19. Felipe Massa 11

20. Mark Webber 9

21. Fernando Alonso 6

22. Sebastian Vettel 4

 

Statistic: Michele Merlino

 

Source: http://www.ts.fi/moo...kausitilastossa

 

Wow. What I think these statistics highlight most profoundly is that Macca's race pace this year has been absolute crap. :p
 



#336 trogggy

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 22:30

Wow. What I think these statistics highlight most profoundly is that Macca's race pace this year has been absolute crap. :p
 

It isn't that simple.

 

How many overtakes did Vettel do in Singapore?

Crap car?

 

Maclaren have tended to run longer stints and less pit-stops this year.  You can argue (with some justification) that they've done that because the car's crap, but if they'd done more stops that particular statistic would look very different.



#337 Neolew

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 23:17

I don't struggle with distinctively your opinion, I struggle with the very lose interpretation of "wheel-to-wheel". The expression itself is actually defining what it is all about and therefore I must object when people drag in incidents that has no wheel-to-wheel elements in them. Your example with Sutil is also a good example of how to NOT do it, but here the blame falls on Sutil because he was the one that should have left room but he didn't and no wheel-to-wheel racing occured. Look at Sutils hands, he is actually steering into Kimi. In my opinion a good wheel-to-wheel racer takes up space, but he also leaves room for the other to stay on track.
 

 

 

Maybe Sutil still had bad memories of losing a podium place in monaco 08 when kimi smashed into him, but  kimi is never at fault in the eyes of his army of fans..

 

 

2008 wasn't the best season for kimi, not only did he suffer bad luck such as lewis crashing into him instead of Kubica in Canada he also made many un-iceman like driver errors such as

 

 

Crashing out at spa after the rain affected mayhem with lewis (and nico 01:50!!!)

 

kerb hopping crash in singapore

 

 

I am not bashing kimi here but i don't like how his new post F1 return fanbase propel him to a god like status dismissing his past errors.


Edited by Neolew, 24 September 2013 - 23:23.


#338 Afterburner

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 01:04

It isn't that simple.

How many overtakes did Vettel do in Singapore?
Crap car?

Maclaren have tended to run longer stints and less pit-stops this year. You can argue (with some justification) that they've done that because the car's crap, but if they'd done more stops that particular statistic would look very different.


Maybe, but considering they're among the worst overtakers this year and the most overtaken, it's tough to extrapolate the idea that they have the capability of going forward at all. As you say, one wonders what sort of horrors they'd be in if they had to push their car. :p

#339 trogggy

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 01:23

No, you've missed the point completely.

If the strategy is to make less stops a car can be overtaken loads of times during the race, overtake nobody and still move forward,

 

And that's tended to be Mclaren's approach this year.

That's why this statistic doesn't paint an accurate picture.

Qualify badly, make lots of stops and you look great by this measure even if the finishing position doesn't.



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#340 heineken2008

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 01:42

Kimi and Alonso are pretty much on par Kimi is more fair, whereas Alonso is more ruthless



#341 ZZei

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 03:51

Maybe Sutil still had bad memories of losing a podium place in monaco 08 when kimi smashed into him, but  kimi is never at fault in the eyes of his army of fans..

 

 

2008 wasn't the best season for kimi, not only did he suffer bad luck such as lewis crashing into him instead of Kubica in Canada he also made many un-iceman like driver errors such as

 

 

Crashing out at spa after the rain affected mayhem with lewis (and nico 01:50!!!)

 

kerb hopping crash in singapore

 

 

I am not bashing kimi here but i don't like how his new post F1 return fanbase propel him to a god like status dismissing his past errors.

In none of the videos you posted is raikkonen making any wheel to wheel mistakes. Just driving errors. And I still cant believe people bash him for that Sutil crash in monaco. Had there not been sutil's car in front of him, we would be talking about one of the"saves" of the decade or so :p



#342 Vesuvius

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 06:44

Maybe Sutil still had bad memories of losing a podium place in monaco 08 when kimi smashed into him, but  kimi is never at fault in the eyes of his army of fans..

 

 

2008 wasn't the best season for kimi, not only did he suffer bad luck such as lewis crashing into him instead of Kubica in Canada he also made many un-iceman like driver errors such as

 

 

Crashing out at spa after the rain affected mayhem with lewis (and nico 01:50!!!)

 

kerb hopping crash in singapore

 

 

I am not bashing kimi here but i don't like how his new post F1 return fanbase propel him to a god like status dismissing his past errors.

first of all, Sutil wouldnt have been on podium, because he got penalty for overtaking under yellow flags.

 

2008 for sure wasnt best of seasons for Kimi but spa wasnt his biggest mistake while monaco and singapore were. at spa Kimi was bloody brilliant and had the rain stayed away, he would have easily won the race..when the rain came, he did have fantastic wheel to wheel battle with Lewis and both were on dry-tyres so it was very slippery and both went out, Ferrari was much slower than McLaren on wet that year so it was amazing to see that Kimi could even fight against Lewis and in the end it ended up in to a wall...but on the way Kimi showed fantastic reflecses by avoiding other cars.



#343 Miggeex

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 07:54

Maybe Sutil still had bad memories of losing a podium place in monaco 08 when kimi smashed into him, but  kimi is never at fault in the eyes of his army of fans..

 

 

2008 wasn't the best season for kimi, not only did he suffer bad luck such as lewis crashing into him instead of Kubica in Canada he also made many un-iceman like driver errors such as

 

 

Crashing out at spa after the rain affected mayhem with lewis (and nico 01:50!!!)

 

kerb hopping crash in singapore

 

 

I am not bashing kimi here but i don't like how his new post F1 return fanbase propel him to a god like status dismissing his past errors.

 

You're right that those were really rare mistakes from Kimi but I don't see them as a wheel-to-wheel racing accidents. Maybe someone else does and I don't mind.

 

For me the accident in Monaco just showed how uncomfortable he was in that car when loosing it like that in a bump that everyone knew to be careful with. Shame that Sutil wasn't 1 more second ahead.

 

In Spa 2008 it really was the attitude of "win or nothing". I just watched the race again few days ago just to refresh my memory. It was known by everyone there that Kimi had to win it if he wanted to be in a position where the team won't switch the full focus on Massa. You can see it on lap 1 when he passes Massa and just squeezes him towards the grass to force him to lift a bit. (nasty stuff but had to be done). Then in the second to last lap when he spun and Hamilton passed him it was really no point to get safe 2nd place because it would get nothing to him and we saw how it ended up. Pretty silly mistake though. Must have been frustrating afterwards when that safe 2nd place would've given him the win.

 

Singapore accident was purely his mistake so no one can make excuses of that.

 

OK BUT MY ANSWER TO THE TOPIC ( :rotfl: )

 

IMO Hamilton is great. That year with Massa situations ofc was a small hit to his reputation in this area of skills but i'm not reading too much in those situations. In F1 it's easy to find yourself from this kind of situations where things just begins to go wrong and it's difficult to turn it around. Like those things with Grosjean, at certain point the driver just begins to think that "it's going to go wrong anyway..."

 

Button deserves respect for the close racing. He's a fair racer but he can also commit to very aggressive moves. 

 

Alonso won't collide either with anyone unless the other guys makes a mistake. He also knows the power of red car being in the mirrors of the younger drivers especially. They just get a little nervous when they see that it's Alonso behind and they don't want to do anything silly.

 

Schumi isn't driving anymore but I just had to point out the situation from Interlagos last year when Kimi passed him in T1. He just left enough room and it was crazy how the tyres were placed at that moment. When it happened I was sure that one of the cars will get launched in to air due to tyre contact, but it didn't happen. He was still very sharp in close situations last year   ;)

 

Kimi has been good so far in his comeback. I think he has improved big time his way to think in races. How to set targets etc. Much more patient, and just when you think that "meh, he's too careful to take the risk and try it out there" , he pulls it off. The move on Hulkenberg at Austin was just like that for me.

 

I think that it also counts how the drivers valuate those close moments and tough fights. Before stepping on the podium when the drivers are chatting in that room, it's always great to see some drivers talking about those close fights with pure excitement, even if they had lost it out. There's a connection with the drivers who gets really excited about those situations and the drivers that we rate highly in this category. For me they are the same guys. Some people who are getting all stressed out in those situations often ends up messing it up. I don't know if you've seen the video when Kimi is being interviewed after the Austin race and Button walks by and says to Kimi: "that was fun" and they're shaking hands and laughing. I can remember similar situations of everyone that I listed here: Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Button. I think Vettel has it too but I want to see him "stuggle" through the moves and see him without his helmet after that. It would tell a lot.


Edited by Miggeex, 25 September 2013 - 07:57.


#344 scheivlak

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:24

Maybe Sutil still had bad memories of losing a podium place in monaco 08 when kimi smashed into him,

 

Sutil didn't lose a podium.

 

Yes, he drove a great race but he was 4th at that moment and there's no way he would have caught and passed the top 3 (even apart from the fact that he had to serve a penalty for making a pass under yellow flags).



#345 Afterburner

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 13:31

No, you've missed the point completely.

If the strategy is to make less stops a car can be overtaken loads of times during the race, overtake nobody and still move forward,

 

And that's tended to be Mclaren's approach this year.

That's why this statistic doesn't paint an accurate picture.

Qualify badly, make lots of stops and you look great by this measure even if the finishing position doesn't.

 

No, I haven't missed anything--that's exactly how I interpreted your post. Of course they're going to be overtaken loads of times if they stay out longer to inherit positions while others stop. As you said, if that's the strategy that allows them to get through the race the quickest, then they're going to use it--but that sort of implies that they're doing that because it would be worse to push their car and go for more stops, no? After pushing, their tyres would fall off faster and they'd get overtaken anyway, probably on track a few times--the numbers wouldn't be as exaggerated but they'd probably show the same trend, wouldn't you agree? It's a Catch-22, as far as I can see--and it goes back to having lousy race pace.

 

I was pretty sure we were on the same page. Maybe not.



#346 trogggy

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 13:57

I think we're close.  Too close to argue about it anyway.