37 replies to this topic

[LewDaMan]

Ignore the fact that ERS is coming in next season but what do posters think of KERS and DRS? If you had a choice of having such things or not, what would you decide?

 

I kinda liked of them for a while after they were introduced in 2011 as it did spice up the racing a bit. But now I ultimately think it's all a bit artificial. I've been rewatching some of 2005-2008 and I'm surprised at how happy I was not to see the overtaking aids in play and instead see some "real" overtaking.

 

That being said, you could say it's a bit artificial for a faster car to be unable to overtake a slower car in front, due to the effects of "dirty air."

 

I appreciate that there will never be "perfect" regulations but somehow KERS/DRS and the like now seem a bit cheap.

 

Over to the rest of the forum...

[HoldenRT]

I wish it could be like the sprint format of years ago where they actually push hard for each lap.  It'd make the forum arguements about who is quicker actually mean something more (again).  I wish they'd remove the part how they force you to use both compounds and let the teams customise the car for whatever compound they wish to run.  Some teams might tune it for a 1 stop on the harder tyre and others for a 3 stop on the softer tyre.  I wish they would keep DRS because it's required on some circuits.  It helps to reduce the problem of aero turbulance.  It'd be better not to have it, but what usually happens is that the faster cars usually end up infront.. but sometimes it's not enough even with DRS.. and that's what you want.  Sometimes it helps them overtake and sometimes it doesn't.. but they usually have to earn it.

 

So while not ideal.. it works ok.  If you combined varying fuel loads, plus running different tyres, plus different strategies (1 stop vs 3 stop), and combining that with DRS.. there'd be plenty of overtakes.  And each stint would be like the final stint, where they are on lower fuel so they drive harder and faster and there'd be less stress on the tyres.. therefore less worry about cheese tyres.

 

I agree with you that there was a pure element to 2005-2008 (or earlier), but also there were too many races ruined by Trulli trains.. and DRS helps to avoid that.  The main problem with DRS is that when there is a train of cars, it's up to the car beind to overtake.  If he can't.. it still creates a train, because everyone is on the limiter.  And it's harder for the cars behind to overtake because there is so little space infront.. and there's a high chance of a crash.  It's impossible to overtake 3 cars in one corner, and sometimes the car 3rd in the queue has to wait for the guy infront to make his move before he can make his.  Sometimes they are still able to overtake though.  DRS seems more important on some tracks and less with others.  For Monaco, they may as well not even use it.  But for some tracks literally does help to create overtakes, where usually there wouldn't be any.

Edited by HoldenRT, 21 September 2013 - 03:15.

[LewDaMan]

Interesting thoughts mate. And a lot of good points, althought I can't reply to all of them right now as I must get some sleep!

 

I definitely miss refuelling as it made for some great strategy battles. Although one of the main arguments against refuelling is that is often ruined Q3 of qualifying but still I miss it.

 

I wonder if it would be possible to limit amount of DRS usage per race to a fixed quantity? And would it actually work well in practice? 

 

Too tired to think that out...must sleep!

[eronrules]

no i won't. any sports needs a spectacle, only sports purists will clamor on about the purity of the sport and how it shouldn't be tainted, how it should be fair.

well newsflash, formula 1 is and was never fair. teams with higher budget or clever brains always prevailed. Also, the majority of the fan aren't sports purist, they come here for the show, and the Global TV network and round the clock media coverage has always pushed for the 'entertainment' value to surpass the 'sport' aspect. imagine a season without some sort of controversies, it would be boring, rating would drop and people will get bored. with the coming of modern age, the attention span of regular Joe fans is already short as it is, would be non-existant if the races becomes as spec as the GP2/GP3 serieses.

in short, overtaking aids does contribute to overall racing. it's not just opening a flap or pushing KERS anymore. the teams have to optimize it, strategies it and develop it in order for it to work in the same way as 'Refueling' was in it's day. face it, modern formula one cars are so aerodynamically efficient that without such aids and pirelli high deg tires, formula one would have a slow death like the one facing Scchumacher era.

i know people harp on about RBR domination, but it's these overtaking aids that keeps them honest. it's not like it's a handicap, all teams have it, it's just as a part of the game as tires or fuel is.

rest assured, with the coming 2014 regs, with shallower Rear wing mainplane, the advantages gained from DRS is expected to be a bit less as te drag shedding will be limited. also, the lead driver will have more arsenal in the form of more Auxiliary boost from various energy recovery system and can manipulate it with effect.

[Tron]

DRS NEEDS TO BE REMOVED!!!

 

It's killed off defensive driving and slip streaming overtaking, as well has the drivers waiting for DRS points to overtake instead of exploring the rest of the track. Look at Hungary 1989 when the cars were wider, no DRS, yet the drivers found space just about everywhere.

 

As for Kers soon to be ERS, I'm in favour for, as both the defending and attacking driver can use it, so it's not artificial over taking, but more like an extra boost to the pedal.

 

If F1 wants to improve overtaking, then modify certain parts of various tracks. Problem solved. Less cheaper in the longer run. And true racing.

Edited by Tron, 21 September 2013 - 03:50.

[Velocifer]

This should have been a poll.

[Gyno]

REMOVE DRS and KERS.

Remove 2 compounds per race rule.

 

Teams them self should decide what tire they wanna use at each GP not the tire manufactor.

They need to get more mechanical grip into the cars and remove aero grip.

[dreamer]

I would keep kers but remove drs...

[Vesuvius]

Every driver wants DRS to be removed and so do I.

[Fourjays]

No. But I would alter DRS to use some kind of technological method to make it fairer. For example, having it shut as soon as the overtaking car pulls out of the slipstream/gets within range of car in front/is alongside/whatever. Would give the defending driver a chance to defend, and would stop situations where the DRS is powerful enough to breeze pass and be into the distance before it shuts. I think DRS should help bridge that final gap that aerodynamics prevent them reaching naturally, but it shouldn't complete the overtake.

 

Also, remove the stupid compound rule and allow more flexibility in tyre selection for teams. They haven't used Bridgestones in years, so why we keep the rules designed for them is beyond me.

[KWSN - DSM]

Remove KERS, ERS and DRS. Do not come up with something even more inane.

 

[karlth]

Those who wish for the removal of DRS and KERS should be forced to watch the 2002 San Marino Grand Prix in slow motion and on repeat.

[travbrad]

The use both tyre compounds rule is really the most annoying one for me.  They say they want tyres to play a strategic role in the races, but then they limit the strategic choices that can be made regarding tyres.  I'd also like for them to allow the teams to pick which 2 of the 4 compounds they want to use for a given race.  That way a team that is lighter on their tyres might be able to get away with softer compounds while teams that are harder on their tyres would opt for harder tyres.  It wouldn't require any extra logistics from Pirelli if the teams had to make the choice well ahead of time.

 

I don't really have a problem with KERS.  From a racing/competitive perspective it's perfectly fair because everyone has it, and it's really not that different from turning up the revs or turbo boost which is what they did in the decades before KERS.

 

As for DRS, at the very least they should take the track characteristics into consideration.  Spa or Montreal don't really need DRS (let alone 2 DRS zones), whereas on a track like Budapest it's probably the only way drivers are going to get close enough to pass.

Edited by travbrad, 21 September 2013 - 11:23.

[spacekid]

I would keep kers but remove drs...

 

This. They are two very different devices.

 

Also, KERS can be used to defend as well as attack - there is no defence from DRS with the way some of the zones are set up, in soe cases it simply kills racing as there is no more defensive driving.

 

I would actually go a bit further with KERS and say to the teams - have at it. You can have as much KERS as you can design a system to deliver, and see what they do. I know the big budget teams will end up with better systems, but that is F1, and it would really drive KERS forward. Maybe some teams would have KERS systems that can deliver much more HP, but for a shorter period, or have lower amounts for longer. In days of ever increasing rule homogenisation I'd love to see rules that allow for different implementations - the different solutions can create interesting racing.

[TomNokoe]

Increase KERS allocation and rid of DRS. Or give the car behind 50% extra KERS or something

[LewDaMan]

This should have been a poll.

 

I tried! 

 

Despite using a few forums over the years, this forum software is completely unfamiliar to me and I was also incredibly tired when writing this thread!

 

If a mod reads this, perhaps he or she will be kind enough to add a simple 'yes' or 'no' vote please?

[Wanderer]

I think KERS is good. DRS could be good if implemented differently, in a more 'same for all' way, like 5 seconds per lap or 10 times per race for each driver at any place of the track.

 

Or, if you want to keep the field together, give each driver X seconds of DRS each lap, with X being the position the driver had when he crossed the line. Would be a nice bonus for backmarkers or frontrunners who fell behind for whatever reasons, but the difference between two guys fighting for position would be marginal.

[djparky]

no I would keep the ovcertaking aids- we've all seen what it was like before when all they did was drive round behind each other until an exciting fuel stop overtake happened. F1 finally realised that it also had to be entertainment rather than just a tactical/strategy battle that was really only of interest to the participants not those watching on tv

 

In the old days F1 used to be about managing the equipment as well as being quick- people bitched and moaned about the tyres but that;s how it used to be, along with fuel limits etc

 

if you want to watch mind numbing processions then pick almost any GP during 2000-2009

[bub]

I would keep kers but remove drs...

Me too.

[Clatter]

KERS is OK because a driver can use it tactically, I would prefer the limits on it's use had been increased as per the original proposal when it was introduced. DRS is awful as the defending driver has no option but to let the attacker pass.

[Disgrace]

KERS is OK because a driver can use it tactically, I would prefer the limits on it's use had been increased as per the original proposal when it was introduced. DRS is awful as the defending driver has no option but to let the attacker pass.

 

Pretty much this. DRS has killed defensive driving, but the current tyres also have a say in that. DRS is, however, solely responsible for other unforeseen issues such as turning the pecking order of good circuits completely upside-down, i.e. circuits which naturally lend themselves to overtaking now produce awful races.

Edited by Disgrace, 21 September 2013 - 15:47.

[SenorSjon]

DRS is only viable in a WSR3.5 kind of way They have xxx seconds a race of DRS available, to use at driver's discretion. Both offensive and defensive possible, so you can get a fair fight. I really hate those pre-defined zones and at Spa for instance it shouldn't be used at all.

 

The best overtaking aid is to remove the RPM limit. It is at the drivers own risk if he redlines his engine to much. Also, more power would help. The aero side of cars has been developed constantly, while the engine development is mostly frozen since 2008. Hence RedBull dominance with an aero artist at the helm.

[JHSingo]

I just find it amusing that people honestly believe the racing would be better without DRS or Pirelli tyres or whatever. You must have short term memories or something, because anyone who watched prior to 2011 would know that wouldn't be the case.

 

Before 2011, dry races with Bridgestone tyres (and refuelling for that matter) were often very, very processional. And you honestly want that back? 

 

Take Abu Dhabi 2010 as a case study. Alonso didn't really lose the title through a bad strategy call as is often stated, but simply because he couldn't overtake. And that's when we had durable tyres and no DRS/KERS.

 

I'm by no means a fan of either DRS, KERS or Pirelli tyres, but I also realise if it wasn't for them, the racing would probably be even worse than it is now.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it.

[PayasYouRace]

I'm quite happy with KERS and thought it's usage should be more open, limiting the total energy stored perhaps, but not it's usage over a lap. I guess ERS or whatever next year brings will be similar in sporting concept.

 

DRS is also something that I'm happy with in principle because it is meant to counter the dirty air problem. However its execution has not been perfect. At some circuits it has had no effect and others it has made overtaking too easy. Occasionally we've seen races where it has worked properly, allowing the attacker to set up an overtake into the corner, rather than just driving past along the straight. DRS just needs proper tweaking. I don't think it should be allowed in defence of position, because it is meant to undo the difficulty of following another car. In fact I'm glad DRS still works with backmarkers, as it keeps it more in the realm of track position rather than the race positions.

 

I think the rev-limit should either not apply in top gear to allow proper slipstreaming.

 

Since these systems and Pirelli came along, I haven't seen the need for the 2 compounds per race rule. I think the teams should choose in advance which compounds from the Pirelli selection they want at each race, and can use their allocation as they see fit.

[KingTiger]

DRS passes are horrible, so I really wish it would be removed. It won't though because were talking about F1 here, one of the most corrupt, inept and badly run "sports" in the history of the world.

 

 

I just find it amusing that people honestly believe the racing would be better without DRS or Pirelli tyres or whatever. You must have short term memories or something, because anyone who watched prior to 2011 would know that wouldn't be the case.

 

Before 2011, dry races with Bridgestone tyres (and refuelling for that matter) were often very, very processional. And you honestly want that back? 

 

Take Abu Dhabi 2010 as a case study. Alonso didn't really lose the title through a bad strategy call as is often stated, but simply because he couldn't overtake. And that's when we had durable tyres and no DRS/KERS.

 

I'm by no means a fan of either DRS, KERS or Pirelli tyres, but I also realise if it wasn't for them, the racing would probably be even worse than it is now.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

And why can't they overtake? Because of the horrible aerodynamic focused regulations. 

Edited by KingTiger, 21 September 2013 - 22:46.

[RealRacing]

Get rid of DRS for sure. The moment cars are made right, natural slipstream overtaking will happen and actual fighting for position (along with defensive driving and all that good stuff) will return, passes, position gains and recovery drives will actually mean something and true talent will be rewarded.

 

KERS and ERS? Meh... it's cute but it really serves no function anymore. People saw that it was possible to store kinetic energy, it contributed something to conventional cars, let the automakers continue its development.

[BlackCat]

remove chicanes, runoff areas and mandatory pit stops. real racing follows automagically

[Lee Nicolle]

Get rid of flappy wings, electric motors and 5 lap tyres, Also as others have said limit aero to more simple stuff, rear wing front wing/s. None of this ugly stupidly fussy mad boffins nightmare the cars are now. Some aero though is totally necesary at the speeds they travel.
Then give them wider tyres and free choice of use. With a limited number per event total. eg 12 tyres of their own choice. IF they have to have a control tyre at least make them free choice of compounds.

[MattPete]

I'd only get rid of them if they got rid of the flat bottoms and went with mild ground-effects, ala CART/Champcar.  KERS and DRS are basically band-aids that get around the unintentional consequences caused by the rulebook, specifically rules that encouraged cars that are too aerodynamically sensitive in traffic.

[Nitropower]

A few years ago overtaking battles astonishing, d'you know why? because there were so little that it was amazing when you saw a good one. We forgot about that. I remember some extremely dull season where no one was able to overtake. 2007 anyone?

 

Aids help spice up things and sometimes they can't overtake even if they have DRS. Remove it and there will be NO chance instead.

 

I'd keep them.But I'd alter it someow so it doesn't give such a tremendous advantage in a long straight.

[Cool Beans]

I used to be dead against aids, I think pretty much everyone was. I guess people just slowly got used to the idea of aids and were finally willing to see the tremendous advantages of aids. I just think now that aids has made it's way into F1 we should consider giving aids to the junior drivers too. It's a pretty big step growing up driving without aids and then getting into F1 which has aids. How young is too young for aids? Should we give aids to kids as soon as they start driving or should aids be introduced to them in smaller steps as they grow up? 

[SenorSjon]

I just find it amusing that people honestly believe the racing would be better without DRS or Pirelli tyres or whatever. You must have short term memories or something, because anyone who watched prior to 2011 would know that wouldn't be the case.

 

Before 2011, dry races with Bridgestone tyres (and refuelling for that matter) were often very, very processional. And you honestly want that back? 

 

Take Abu Dhabi 2010 as a case study. Alonso didn't really lose the title through a bad strategy call as is often stated, but simply because he couldn't overtake. And that's when we had durable tyres and no DRS/KERS.

 

I'm by no means a fan of either DRS, KERS or Pirelli tyres, but I also realise if it wasn't for them, the racing would probably be even worse than it is now.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

This again? Everytime 2010 comes up as a bogey man in defense of DRS and /or Pirelli. We have 60 years of F1 before that and it seems with more rules, the actual racing becomes poorer. The engines, starting with the v8, are limited due to the same RPM for everyone and hardly any development. 2004 is still the fastest F1, those records pop up once in a while.

Edited by SenorSjon, 22 September 2013 - 04:11.

[CoolBreeze]

Yes I would. Unfortunately this means going back to v10s and less aero. Less powerful brakes too.

[pingu666]

id consider playing around with drs before binning it - reduce slot gap, using it in different zones (so the guy can suck up), and mandate a 7th gear

 

scrap the two tyres must be used, but still bring 2 types. and scrap start on same tyres you qualified on too, thats entirely not worked.

 

id sumerise a drs passes as

guy i like =

guy im indifferent about

guy i dont like

guy i like getting passed easily

 

and a underlining feeling of   to all of it

[InfectedPumpkin]

Delete DRS and KERS.

I don't enjoy when driver 'overtaking' using DRS. It such disaster. No fun at all. No skill required.

And KERS. Well, it is not as bad as DRS, but still, it is bad to racing. In the past driver have no such things and racing were amazing.

Get rid all of them.

[stanga]

Remove DRS. Keep KERS.

[Gyno]

Those who wish for the removal of DRS and KERS should be forced to watch the 2002 San Marino Grand Prix in slow motion and on repeat.

 

Imola GP 2002 and 2003 was ALOT more exiting to watch then ANY of this past few years races.

People were at the edge of their seat for the entire race.

 

Today you dont get that.

They just push a button and fly by the other car.

Like NaScar, the overtakings MEANS NOTHING.

[pingu666]

depending on the track it can mean alot in napcar, or not much