38 replies to this topic

[Forma1]

Just remember May when Paul said: "Unless you all want us to give Red Bull the tyres to win the championship. It's pretty clear. If we did that, there would be one team that would benefit and it would be them."

 

Pirelli was forced to change the tyres in Barcelona, in Germany and Hockenheim and not to mention that they went into a cautious mode and bring everywhere much harder tyres they wanted beforehand. 

 

Interestingely RB started showing dominant and superior form from Germany. That's the time when Lotus and Ferrari massively lost from their tyre management.

 

[sv401]

They were already leading the championships before the German race, where the final modifications to the tyres were not even made anyway. Also, Ferrari struggled already in Silverstone, even though they were predicted (from Barcelona form) to dominate at that track. Red Bull simply had better mid-season development. It is easier to make a fundamentally fast, but - because of "too much" downforce - tyre eating car conserve tyres better, than to make a car that simply does not have enough downforce fast. Over the season, the "Pirelli lottery" tends to end eventually, as the teams find out how to manage the tyres the best. The current, allegedly more durable (although in fact the compounds are still the same 2013 ones) tyres should have suited Mercedes as well, so I am not sure why Red Bull is singled out as the favored team.

Edited by sv401, 21 September 2013 - 21:05.

[Atreiu]

Hum... no.
It was never supposed to be in Pirelli's hands to controle the competitiveness. They should simply worry about making tyres safe for F1 speeds/demands.

Red Bull has the best car, let them enjoy it while the others catch up.

[Cool Beans]

I voted yes, as in Red Bull benefited the most from the new tyres but saying Pirelli handed them the title is stupid.

[fhaneef]

Yes, they had a spec that teams developed their car against. Changing tyres mid way through the season handed the advantage to philosophies that worked their tyres harder.

Pirelli should compensate Lotus, Ferrari, Force India on loss of points. You cant change car philosophies midway through the season. Pirelli are a spec tyre meaning the spec should stay the same throughout the year!

Edited by fhaneef, 21 September 2013 - 21:12.

[drag]

I think they are best team again no matter the tyre change, after mid season usually they find the grip with tyres.

So maybe this change helped them a bit but as they say fastest car always win especially through the whole season. 

Though my opinion is that they should not change such a key component for a racing car at the middle of the season,but what is done is done and lets be honest Silverstone race was scare.

[Lucass]

Whatever Pirelli would have done Red Bull would still have won this championship.

The other teams lack the car and/or the driver to challenge them this year

[Jimisgod]

All the moaners who whined about "cheese" tyres gave the title to RBR.

I remember the collective tantrum after Spain, and that was a race where you really couldn't be sure of a winner until the midway point. Now Vettel runs away with the win from lap 1 and I'm yet to see that level of moan.

You got what you deserve.

[Wanderer]

You had me convinced that it's all down to Newey and now you tell me it's Hembrey's doing.

 

I'm confused. 

Edited by Wanderer, 21 September 2013 - 22:00.

[fhaneef]

All the moaners who whined about "cheese" tyres gave the title to RBR.

I remember the collective tantrum after Spain, and that was a race where you really couldn't be sure of a winner until the midway point. Now Vettel runs away with the win from lap 1 and I'm yet to see that level of moan.

You got what you deserve.

Your dead on, not to mention the british press who were rallying this cause after seeing their golden boy drop down the field.

Vettel so confidence of pole position and race win he doesnt even have to try for a second go!

[sv401]

I remember the collective tantrum after Spain, and that was a race where you really couldn't be sure of a winner until the midway point.

 

A dominant win by Alonso with even Massa finishing on the podium is of course much more exciting than if Red Bull does the same. Too bad Ferrari could no longer do that by Silverstone, even though the tyres were still the same old cheese ones. Perhaps it is the incompetence of the rivals (upgrades that do not work, chronic wind tunnel calibration issues, etc.) that gives RBR the title ?

[Sin]

Just remember May when Paul said: "Unless you all want us to give Red Bull the tyres to win the championship. It's pretty clear. If we did that, there would be one team that would benefit and it would be them."

 

Pirelli was forced to change the tyres in Barcelona, in Germany and Hockenheim and not to mention that they went into a cautious mode and bring everywhere much harder tyres they wanted beforehand. 

 

Interestingely RB started showing dominant and superior form from Germany. That's the time when Lotus and Ferrari massively lost from their tyre management.

 

You forget that Ferrari was all pro new tyres too...

 

also we didn't even race in Hockenheim in 2013

 

Ferraris problems aren't the tyres... Lotus and Force Indias problem are the tyres or the fact that they lost the old ones, which their cars were able to handle better than the other cars, but Ferrari made some upgrades to the car that didn't work and had to remove those upgrades again... all in all they just failed to bring their car forward

Edited by Sin, 21 September 2013 - 22:15.

[Atreiu]

Nevermind thousands of hours or work developping the car, Pirelli hand picked Red Bull and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

[Mc_Silver]

No

[KingTiger]

Ferrari and Lotus were very lucky that those horrible flawed tires managed to last half the season. If I was the FIA I would've forced Pirelli to change the tires as early as China. It was a joke how bad those tires were. 

[Sin]

The problem was that the old tyres weren't safe, them constantly breaking was a risk for all drivers... I'm bummed for Force India too who are one of my favorite teams... however what could they have done? The tyres simply weren't safe

 

also I'm pretty sure RBR still would be leading WDC & WCC even with the old tyres

Edited by Sin, 21 September 2013 - 22:58.

[Der Pate]

The new tyres helped Mercedes as well (probably the most)! Is there anyone who says, that Pirelli handed the vice-WCC to Mercedes?

[travbrad]

I think RBR would have probably won the championship no matter what happened, but the tyre changes certainly gave them that extra edge to make it much easier.

[bourbon]

I agree the specs should not change for tyres in general, but when they are flying apart and ruining the race by ruling the show with their requirements, something has to be done. 

 

It didn't just benefit Red Bull; Ferrari, Mercedes and McLaren had their tyres peel away.  If I remember correctly, only Lotus of the top teams escaped that phenomenon - but I may be misremembering in regard to the Enstone team.  Nonetheless, all of the teams demanded safer tyres - including the drivers (remember the threat not to race?)

[CatharticF1]

What is very clear is that the principle of making tyres marginal on wear / grip has been abandoned. The tyre struggles we saw earlier in the season are gone, and that cannot be anything other than deliberate.

When the tyres were considered more difficult to manage - there were two teams with far better tyre management than RBR.

 

As in previous seasons: my advice to Ferrari and Lotus is to design a car that works the tyres as hard as possible and then win the political case to have tyres that suit your car chosen for any given circuit. This political tactic has been won every year for the past decade or so, not least because tyre manufacturers have no appetite for the appearance of their tyres being fragile. Tyre management doesn't win championships, and any gain is diminished as the season unwinds.

Edited by CatharticF1, 22 September 2013 - 01:51.

[Kelateboy]

Similar to 2012.

 

We had 7 different winners from the 1st 7 races - utter lottery. The next 13 races were dominated by Red Bull and McLaren once the teams got grips of the tyres.

[Kelateboy]

You had me convinced that it's all down to Newey and now you tell me it's Hembrey's doing.

 

I'm confused. 

 

He can't make up his mind!

[Winter98]

All the moaners who whined about "cheese" tyres gave the title to RBR.

I remember the collective tantrum after Spain, and that was a race where you really couldn't be sure of a winner until the midway point. Now Vettel runs away with the win from lap 1 and I'm yet to see that level of moan.

You got what you deserve.

Vettel and RBR were ahead even though the Ferrari was considered the best car up to that point.

 

Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

[HoldenRT]

Redbull weren't having the same failures that Lewis and Massa were having.. in terms of DNF's or race ruining pitstops, trundling back to the pits for half a lap.  So what's worse, being out of the points due to failures or having the extra pace?  I guess it depends on which circuit it is, in terms of how many fast corners it has and if these failures are happening regularly or not.  But they were happening quite frequently on those tracks.

[TecnoRacing]

All the moaners who whined about "cheese" tyres gave the title to RBR.

I remember the collective tantrum after Spain, and that was a race where you really couldn't be sure of a winner until the midway point. Now Vettel runs away with the win from lap 1 and I'm yet to see that level of moan.

You got what you deserve.

 

 

So the only choices are tedious domination, or artificial randomness (+trundling around at 70% pace) then?

 

The tires rules are still all screwed up now, by the way...

[Kingshark]

In hindsight, Paul Hembery was right. Pirelli have not necessarily gifted Red Bull the championship, but made their job much easier than it should have been.

[DarthWillie]

Op is à bit obsessed with red bull putting up all this threads trying to prove red bull is superior, not their driver.

Remember silverstone? Tires failling quite spectacular, that demanded changes, not à team

[Dozer]

I voted yes, as in Red Bull benefited the most from the new tyres but saying Pirelli handed them the title is stupid.

 

Read my mind, voted as such

 

Mercedes did gain equally imo too but Pirelli did warn that Red Bull had the best car and the cheese tyres were stopping them accessing their full potential (or words to that effect) and we're seeing that now I'd say.

Edited by Dozer, 22 September 2013 - 07:17.

[sopa]

You had me convinced that it's all down to Newey and now you tell me it's Hembrey's doing.

 

I'm confused. 

 

Next it's Bernie E., because he is friends with Horner.

[vista]

I think it is outrageous that Hembery can say things like that. All the fault lies with Pirelli who ultimately didn't do a good enough job in the first place. And since 2012 his comments has been a farce. The biggest variable in the sport right now is the tyres. Pirelli made it easy for Red Bull to win this year as they have the fastest car again. With cheese tyres it was much more exiting and interesting although Red Bull probably would win anyway.   

[Module]

Next it's Bernie E., because he is friends with Horner.

 

Why?, WHY?, WHYYY did you go and give an idea for the next poll?

 

Actually there would be room also for the "is RBR winning because they cheat" (flexi, enginemaps and whatever..) and my favourite "is Vettel winning because they sabotage Webber". You could also start a poll about "is it fair to the bestest driver ever (insert Kimi, Alonso, Button, Webber, Hamilton) that he looses to a worse driver in a superior car"

[Sin]

I want a poll about the hottest driver :o and only girls and gay guys are allowed to vote !

 

But yeah really Formas polls seem to all be anti RB.... *sigh*

Edited by Sin, 22 September 2013 - 09:13.

[Zava]

So BalazsF1, what you are saying is that pirelli produced tyres deliberately against red bull in the first part of the championship, but the silverstone farce forced them to abandon their plan?

Nice of you, feeling for RBR because of pirelli acting against them...

[Gorma]

I voted yes, as in Red Bull benefited the most from the new tyres but saying Pirelli handed them the title is stupid.

I voted No, as in do I like motor oil on my pancakes. Why would you make up your on question? That makes polls more useless than they alreadu are.

Tyres should not be changed midseason that is not fair to anyone. It was a poor decision. Pirelli did not hand the win to RBR, it was the other teams.

[Wanderer]

Pirelli made it easy for Red Bull to win this year as they have the fastest car again.

 

So now it's Pirellis job to level the field by deliberately impeding the fastest car? There are easier ways to do so, like putting ballast on the cars like they do in other series, if that is what you want. Toying around with the tyres so that they can't even stand some curbs is probably a little unsafe.

[olliek88]

Voted no.

 

Alternatively it could be view that, maybe, just maybe, Red Bull have the best package after developing their car better (again) than everyone else. It was already a damn good car early on in the season and now, in the hands of Vettel at least, its the best overall package on the grid. I think even if we still had 3-4 stop races they'd still have a similar level of performance, a fast race car is a fast race car and love him or loathe him Seb is maximising his opportunities and not putting a single foot wrong. That's why (and it bloody pains me to say this) he's about to be a 4 time WDC. 

 

At the end of the day all the teams have the same tyres available to them and Red Bull, as shown over the past 5 years, are one of, if not the, best at developing a car. That progression is relatively clear over the year and it not like Lotus or Ferrari's performance fell off a cliff when the new spec tyres were introduced either, Kimi finished P2 in both Germany and Hungary while Alonso has finished P2 in Monza and Spa. Its just that pesky German kid who has done a better job.

[travbrad]

Similar to 2012.

 

We had 7 different winners from the 1st 7 races - utter lottery. The next 13 races were dominated by Red Bull and McLaren once the teams got grips of the tyres.

 

Except this year the teams didn't get to grips with the tyres.  The tyres got to grips with the teams (RBR and Mercedes especially)

[mardmarium]

Voted no. I cannot help thinking it´s not Red Bull fault that the others cannot catch up

[sv401]

The tyres got to grips with the teams (RBR and Mercedes especially)

 

That does not explain why those two teams were already at the top from about Monaco (compare Ferrari's performance at Barcelona vs. Silverstone in particular - same tyres on demanding tracks). There is only so much Pirelli can do to hobble fundamentally better cars. Eventually, the tyres are figured out, some compromises are made on the cars/setup, and the better package still prevails. It is not like you see many seasons won by a car that does not have the raw pace and is lacking downforce, but is easy on the tyres. Also, I doubt Ferrari and Lotus deliberately sacrificed downforce in favor of tyre management, more likely they simply inherited the already existing characteristics of their 2012 cars.