44 replies to this topic

[Forma1]

Just a quick question. Which credit could given to him? Is he really that good?

[Maustinsj]

which one?

[MikeV1987]

Yeah, Vettel IS that good, Newey isn't the only one who works on the cars, and he certainly doesn't drive them. 

Edited by MikeV1987, 21 September 2013 - 21:02.

[JohnCooperF1]

As well intentioned as this thread may be, my few days on the forum have served to show this one can only end in division with name calling and driver bashing...not to mention the title does not match the vote options.

[rasul]

As well intentioned as this thread may be, my few days on the forum have served to show this one can only end in division with name calling and driver bashing...not to mention the title does not match the vote options.

I assure you the user has no good intentions whatsoever.    It's his/her yet another Red Bull/Vettel bashing thread.

[Lucass]

Surely Sebastian is the 'all time best' (whatever that may be)

He never went for more than 2 years without a title unlike Newey who had quite a dry spell

 

Seb Vettel for all time best

[LewDaMan]

Without Vettel 2009-2013, it is near certain that Red Bull would still have won multiple titles with, say, Alonso, Hamilton and perhaps Raikkonen and Button.

 

Without Newey 2009-2013, it is near certain that Red Bull would have zero titles, whomever was driving for them during that time.

[Wanderer]

Vettel or Newey? They're both all time greats so I think it's fair to click yes.

[Wanderer]

Without Vettel 2009-2013, it is near certain that Red Bull would still have won multiple titles with, say, Alonso, Hamilton and perhaps Raikkonen and Button.

 

Without Newey 2009-2013, it is near certain that Red Bull would have zero titles, whomever was driving for them during that time.

 

Maybe you should call yourself NewDaMan. Why do people root for drivers when they rate designers to be so much more important?

[Racer3]

Polling question and options are so unintelligent that we can only hope for a moderator to have pity with us.

[JohnCooperF1]

Without Vettel 2009-2013, it is near certain that Red Bull would still have won multiple titles with, say, Alonso, Hamilton and perhaps Raikkonen and Button.

 

Without Newey 2009-2013, it is near certain that Red Bull would have zero titles, whomever was driving for them during that time.

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

The only certainty I can see is that between 2009-2012 Red Bull have won multiple drivers and constructors championships with both Newey and Vettel.... nothing else other than this fact is certain.. only speculation or wishful thinking.

[LewDaMan]

Maybe you should call yourself NewDaMan. Why do people root for drivers when they rate designers to be so much more important?

 

Because designers are largely the behind-the-scenes nerds/brainboxes...whereas the drivers are the young and talented risktakers. And Newey is a fantastically brilliant man, whom the UK should be immensely proud of.

 

And I also share the same first name as Mr.Hamilton, which is part of my (light-hearted) username...

[sennafan24]

Newey is stronger variable, as there are a select very few drivers who could have won the titles that Vettel did in the RB, however I do not think anyone could do as good a job as Newey in building the RB car. However, Newey did need backing, resources and a competent team in RB behind him. So it is not as simple as say, get Newey and start winning.

 

RB is the best machine in F1,and Newey is the best at his job, Vettel is not far off the best at his as well.

[LewDaMan]

I respectfully disagree.

 

The only certainty I can see is that between 2009-2012 Red Bull have won multiple drivers and constructors championships with both Newey and Vettel.... nothing else other than this fact is certain.. only speculation or wishful thinking.

 

First sentence...that is obviously fair enough. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

It's worth remembering, though, that five drivers have won WDCs in Newey's cars long before Vettel got to drive one. Inclusive of two whom many would have down as "weaker" WDCs i.e Hill and Villeneuve.

 

As I've also said in a recent post that such was Mansell's dominance in 1992 that he fairly obviously would have won in the 1993 Williams. The same is true t'other way around of Prost 93 and 92 Williams. Senna would also have won 2 x WDCs in the 92/93 Newey cars, for sure.

[Wanderer]

Because designers are largely the behind-the-scenes nerds/brainboxes...whereas the drivers are the young and talented risktakers. 

 

But what's the talent good for when it's all the cars? As for the age being a popularity factor, Seb is the youngest of the champions so you might reconsider him. 

[JohnCooperF1]

First sentence...that is obviously fair enough. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

It's worth remembering, though, that five drivers have won WDCs in Newey's cars long before Vettel got to drive one. Inclusive of two whom many would have down as "weaker" WDCs i.e Hill and Villeneuve.

 

As I've also said in a recent post that such was Mansell's dominance in 1992 that he fairly obviously would have won in the 1993 Williams. The same is true t'other way around of Prost 93 and 92 Williams. Senna would also have won 2 x WDCs in the 92/93 Newey cars, for sure.

 

 

Speculation is a wonderful aphrodisiac.... and as such is to be savoured... I freely admit to basking in it's warm glow myself when I review past seasons, but it remains pure speculation never the less.

[Cenotaph]

Imho, without vettel red bull would never make the leap into a big team and without that status would any other top driver even drive for them?

[JohnCooperF1]

Vettel proved very fast (too fast as I recall) on his debut with BMW Sauber, scoring points in his first race in a non Newey car... OK he then went STR in a Newey machine (I think) but his team mate a four time open wheel champion could not manage to beat the rookie and I believe it was Vettel that won that teams only win to date... Vettel then goes to the RBR team which had Newey as designer since 2006 yet it was only when Vettel joined did they also get their first win... indeed in his first season with the Newey/RBR team Vettel helped the team to finished 2nd in the standings along with himself and has every season since won the both championships.

 

Now there is no doubting Newey is extremely talented with to date 9 championship winning cars potentially a 10th this season, but to claim Vettel's success is purely down to Newey is ludicrous.

 

However I accept that despite the fact it is a ludicrous claim it will not prevent the fallacy from being repeated Ad nauseam... C'est la vie  

[sennafan24]

 

 

, but to claim Vettel's success is purely down to Newey is ludicrous.

 

 

Who is claiming that?

[Diablobb81]

Both.

Another quality thread brought to you by Forma1.

[Module]

Both.

Another quality thread brought to you by Forma1.

 

What's the point in the question?

 

There are now 3 Vettel/RBR-bashingtreads from Forma with polls of wich 2 I don't get... Couldn't atleast all these be merged to one tread where we can argua about how exceptional the car is and its only the car and newey and pirelli and ecclestone just help them and anybody could win in that car... You know the usual stuff....

[apoka]

Vettel or Newey? They're both all time greats so I think it's fair to click yes.

 

I did the same. They are probably both "all time bests" - depending on what that means exactly (the OP didn't bother to explain). The poll should at least say who is meant and whether he refers to something like "top 10 all time best" or "THE best ever" etc. It's so ambiguous, that I hope the thread will be either closed or properly restarted for discussion.

[LewDaMan]

But what's the talent good for when it's all the cars? As for the age being a popularity factor, Seb is the youngest of the champions so you might reconsider him. 

 

It's not "all" down to the car, but it is largely down to the car. Hence Vettel isn't crucial to Red Bull but Newey is.

[DarthWillie]

Vettel AND Newey!  The combination simply works. Newey is a great car designer but let us not forget his cars didn't win a championship between 1999 and 2010. So to simply say every driver can win in a Newey car is nonsense

Vettel would not win the WDC in a Caterham, that is also quite sure.

 

Vettel, Red Bull and Newey seem to have created a great enviroment, what makes them a winning combination.

[Sin]

It's not "all" down to the car, but it is largely down to the car. Hence Vettel isn't crucial to Red Bull but Newey is.

 

.... you been making those posts all day saying stuff you don't have a proof for... many drivers including former champions, including who seems to be your favorite Lewis Hamilton, including Niki Lauda, including Prost (who said Seb is better than him) said Seb is one of the best... and you say he isn't

 

my dear couch hero, how do you come to that assumption?

[LewDaMan]

Speculation is a wonderful aphrodisiac.... and as such is to be savoured... I freely admit to basking in it's warm glow myself when I review past seasons, but it remains pure speculation never the less.

Aphrodisiac!? Whatever floats your boat matey!

 

If Vettel was the first to deliver a WDC in a Newey car then Vettel's claims to greatness would be increased. However, Vettel is merely the sixth driver to do. So Newey is clearly the consistent factor and therefore Red Bull's most important employee.

[LewDaMan]

.... you been making those posts all day saying stuff you don't have a proof for... many drivers including former champions, including who seems to be your favorite Lewis Hamilton, including Niki Lauda, including Prost (who said Seb is better than him) said Seb is one of the best... and you say he isn't

 

my dear couch hero, how do you come to that assumption?

 

Eh, say what!?

 

Where have I said such things? Hint, I haven't. In fact I've been very flattering about Vettel, which seeing as you claim to be familiar with my posts, you should be aware of.

Edited by LewDaMan, 21 September 2013 - 22:31.

[Wanderer]

It's not "all" down to the car, but it is largely down to the car. Hence Vettel isn't crucial to Red Bull but Newey is.

 

But it's weird that there are so few threads about and fans of the crucial people in F1.

[Tron]

Where's the third option, Pirelli?

[KingTiger]

All credit should go to Newey and the Milton Keynes staff. Any mediocre driver would've won the titles in those beastly cars. 

[JohnCooperF1]

All credit should go to Newey and the Milton Keynes staff. Any mediocre driver would've won the titles in those beastly cars. 

 

17 posts... at that is the level of your contribution... I am reliably informed you opinion will see you fit it very well on the Forum

[rhukkas]

They day teams start selling engineering roles, like they do with driver positions, is the day we can say engineers don't clearly have the greater competitive importance.

 

geeky engineers don't sell magazines and they don't get people watching on TV. What gets people watching is drivers because they are the ones thrust in front of their camera. But ask any team on the grid who they would rather have Newey or Vettel... and well we know what the answer will be.

 

That doesn't diminish Vettel's talent, but obviously Newey is the reason RBR are so dominant. But we should also give credit to the whole RBR team, it's NOT just Newey.

 

But again, I will repeat... you CAN'T buy a role in the engineering team of a Grand Prix race car... you CAN buy a race seat. That tells you ALL you need to know about value of personnel. And the reason guys like Newey don't get paid more is probably because they don't have all the agents and managers drivers enjoy.

 

But this is the F1 game. The whole reason people watch is to debate as to whether it's car (which it is) or driver. Vettel has only ever had mediocre at best team mates... so naturally this will always come up.

Edited by rhukkas, 21 September 2013 - 22:46.

[ensign14]

The question seems to be whether we consider one (or more) of Vettel and Newey to be an all-time best, or whether we think neither of them is.

 

In which case the answer from pretty much everyone has to be yes. 

 

Obviously, a better poll would be which.

[sennafan24]

All credit should go to Newey and the Milton Keynes staff. Any mediocre driver would've won the titles in those beastly cars. 

This is where I have to step in. Presuming Vettel wins 2013, the 4 Championships he won would have only been won by 2 other drivers on the grid if they had the same set of variables (i.e team, teammate and car) Those drivers are Lewis and Alonso. Even if Lewis had his form drop in 2011 in the Red Bull he may have scrapped it based on it being a car that he could put on pole and stay out of trouble in if he got enough decent starts.I think he would have just scrapped it.

 

So just 2 drivers out of the field could have done what Vettel has done in my view. Kimi, Jenson and others who I consider better than average I do not think would have won all 3/4 Championships Vettel has won.

[SPBHM]

All credit should go to Newey and the Milton Keynes staff. Any mediocre driver would've won the titles in those beastly cars. 

 

yes, just ask Mark Webber

 

it's the combination, Red Bull is delivering amazing cars, cars that work extremely well with his driving style, I think Vettel deserves a lot of praise for doing it so consistently, he is definitely the right guy for the job (of driving the best F1 car) at the moment, and I also think he is making the difference in many situations.

[LewDaMan]

They day teams start selling engineering roles, like they do with driver positions, is the day we can say engineers don't clearly have the greater competitive importance.

 

geeky engineers don't sell magazines and they don't get people watching on TV. What gets people watching is drivers because they are the ones thrust in front of their camera. But ask any team on the grid who they would rather have Newey or Vettel... and well we know what the answer will be.

 

That doesn't diminish Vettel's talent, but obviously Newey is the reason RBR are so dominant. But we should also give credit to the whole RBR team, it's NOT just Newey.

 

But again, I will repeat... you CAN'T buy a role in the engineering team of a Grand Prix race car... you CAN buy a race seat. That tells you ALL you need to know about value of personnel.

Great post.

 

It's worth remembering that Ferrari have been after Newey for years but Adrian doesn't fancy living in Italy.

 

But I've still got a sneaking suspicion that Newey might fancy one more challenge before he even considers retirement. So maybe Ferrari afterall?

 

Or, fingers-crossed please-please-please, ending his career by turning the much-loved Williams team into front-runners once again!? Wishful thinking that one I'm sure but I'd love to see Newey at Williams again.

[KingTiger]

This is where I have to step in. Presuming Vettel wins 2013, the 4 Championships he won would have only been won by 2 other drivers on the grid if they had the same set of variables (i.e team, teammate and car) Those drivers are Lewis and Alonso. Even if Lewis had his form drop in 2011 in the Red Bull he may have scrapped it based on it being a car that he could put on pole and stay out of trouble in if he got enough decent starts.I think he would have just scrapped it.

 

So just 2 drivers out of the field could have done what Vettel has done in my view. Kimi, Jenson and others who I consider better than average I do not think would have won all 3/4 Championships Vettel has won.

 

I think even someone like Heidfeld or Kubica would've won the titles, if they had the complete backing of Red Bull like Vettel does (and Webber does not). 

[JohnCooperF1]

They day teams start selling engineering roles, like they do with driver positions, is the day we can say engineers don't clearly have the greater competitive importance.

 

geeky engineers don't sell magazines and they don't get people watching on TV. What gets people watching is drivers because they are the ones thrust in front of their camera. But ask any team on the grid who they would rather have Newey or Vettel... and well we know what the answer will be.

 

That doesn't diminish Vettel's talent, but obviously Newey is the reason RBR are so dominant. But we should also give credit to the whole RBR team, it's NOT just Newey.

 

But again, I will repeat... you CAN'T buy a role in the engineering team of a Grand Prix race car... you CAN buy a race seat. That tells you ALL you need to know about value of personnel. And the reason guys like Newey don't get paid more is probably because they don't have all the agents and managers drivers enjoy.

 

 

There is nothing obvious about it unless you wish to simply ignore what you don't like... it a option for sure, after all many take such a option....  people are free to believe whatever they wish, I cannot force you to be right.

 

As for salaried staff... I think that you will find that Vettel has at no point in his F1 career paid for his seat, indeed he has been in demand and his salary reflect the teams opinion of his worth...

 

Sorry if this truth is at odd with your own view but there you have it.

[Wanderer]

But again, I will repeat... you CAN'T buy a role in the engineering team of a Grand Prix race car... you CAN buy a race seat. That tells you ALL you need to know about value of personnel. 

 

Why not? There's surely no reason for anyone to buy an engineering role but I doubt any team would have a problem finding a desk with a CAD computer if they'd get the same amount of money as for a race seat in return.

[JohnCooperF1]

I think even someone like Heidfeld or Kubica would've won the titles, if they had the complete backing of Red Bull like Vettel does (and Webber does not).

 
Ah see there you go.... your credibility has now been compromised.... it was a brief run but it was always going to end sooner or latter.... it seems the former won out.

Edited by JohnCooperF1, 21 September 2013 - 22:55.

[rhukkas]

You're missing my point.

 

In terms of value, engineers are higher than drivers. This is proven by the fact a driver can buy a seat in a midfield to front running team now, that's a fair possibility. However, an engineer can not buy his way into a team, and that's across the board. Generally, there is a higher standard required of engineers in F1.

 

With regard to Vettel. It's a simple fact that this game is 90% car. Is vettel the second coming of jesus? Well, it's hard to judge because his team-mates have never been better than mediocre. Not that it's important, but until he removes himself from Newey's bussom and performs with less highy rated engineers...then there'll always be questions marks.

[KingTiger]

 
Ah see there you go.... your credibility has now been compromised.... it was a brief run but it was always going to end sooner or latter.... it seems the former won out.

 

I thought this topic was about the importance of Vettel vs Newey, not whether I need 38 posts to have credibility in the eyes of JohnCooperF1. 

[rhukkas]

Why not? There's surely no reason for anyone to buy an engineering role but I doubt any team would have a problem finding a desk with a CAD computer if they'd get the same amount of money as for a race seat in return.

 

errr... what? Engage your brain.

 

The driver has an active input in the performance window of a car. No engineer can have that SAME level of input at ANY price. No engineer could tell any design team on the planet. Here's 25 million I just want to make some alterations to you front wing and rear diffuser. it simply has NEVER happened and never COULD happen.

[LewDaMan]

There is nothing obvious about it unless you wish to simply ignore what you don't like... it a option for sure, after all many take such a option....  people are free to believe whatever they wish, I cannot force you to be right.

 

As for salaried staff... I think that you will find that Vettel has at no point in his F1 career paid for his seat, indeed he has been in demand and his salary reflect the teams opinion of his worth...

 

Sorry if this truth is at odd with your own view but there you have it.

 

[Mandzipop]

Until there is a clear question and topic to discuss then this topic is closed.