87 replies to this topic

[Forma1]

I think today we can claim the F1 separeted into two fields: Formula RB and our Formula-1. It was a good race between Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus and with the safety car McLaren came into the picture as well. In Formula RB Vettel won, he was actually 2-3 seconds faster than the driver in Formula-1. The only excitement in Formula Red Bull was when Rocky scared Seb about possible brake failures.

 

I think the last time anyone had such a margin over the rest was in Hungary 2010, of course it was the RB.

[engineblock1]

I remember Monaco GP 2007. McLarens lapped the entire field bar Felipe Massa who was P3

[Kingshark]

Brazil 2007, Ferrari had 1 minute over the rest of the field. I don't remember such a big margin since.

[DarthWillie]

I think today we can claim the F1 separeted into two fields: Formula RB and our Formula-1. It was a good race between Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus and with the safety car McLaren came into the picture as well. In Formula RB Vettel won, he was actually 2-3 seconds faster than the driver in Formula-1. The only excitement in Formula Red Bull was when Rocky scared Seb about possible brake failures.

 

I think the last time anyone had such a margin over the rest was in Hungary 2010, of course it was the RB.

really? strange Webber couldn't even drive on P2 today.

[slmk]

In the Pirelli era, I think that this level of domination has never been seen.

[MortenF1]

Probably Ferrari and Monza in '02 or '04....

[DutchQuicksilver]

It's probably more Formula Vettel vs the rest, because Webber in the same car is level with Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus. Don't count Vettel and we have a cracker of a championship each year combined with cracking races.

[alfa1]

I think today we can claim the F1 separeted into two fields: Formula RB and our Formula-1.

 

 

Its not just the RB car.  Webber is a half decent driver but there was no way he was going to stay with Vettel on this day.

Therefore: to just say "its the car" is a bit simplistic.

[Dalton007]

Vettel is in another league. Webber can't touch him. Same car. 

[mlsnoopy]

Vettel is in another league. Webber can't touch him. Same car. 

 

Interesting that Weber's car blew up but Vettel's didn't.

[Spillage]

I find the question difficult to answer because of the performance of Webber, who showed no such extraordinary pace over the weekend. A really dominant car is one in which both drivers can cruise to victory, as was the case for Mclaren at Monaco 2007, for instance.

[Forma1]

You can take Mark as reference point. No driver ever born in the world is able to lap TWO sec faster than the rest. Seb did a solid job, but that rough speed has come from RB.

[chrcol]

vettel appeared to have the pace to lap the field, it is a huge advantage.

 

newey seem to have found something before the monza race.

 

also its my view vettel has a better car than webber, reliability wise they far from equal, and however good vettel may be, his pace was very different to webber.  Given webber announced retirement, its plausible the pre monza upgrades werent put on his car.

Edited by chrcol, 22 September 2013 - 14:39.

[Kingshark]

Why do people use Webber as a benchmark? Does Kovalainen finishing 7th in the 2008 F1 world championship prove that Hamilton won the WDC in the 4th best car? An unmotivated 37 year old bloke that was never top to begin with is about as accurate of a benchmark as Damon Hill in 1999.

 

The RBR was probably the most dominant car since Ferrari in 2004 today, apart from perhaps a few races in 2007, such as Monaco or Brazil.

Edited by Kingshark, 22 September 2013 - 14:40.

[Coral]

F1 has become a depressing one-man show. I hate saying this but what's the point of even watching now? The races have become a foregone conclusion...Vettel can do staggeringly fast laps seemingly at will.

 

I'm glad that Webber is retiring as I never thought he was much good...unfortunately I don't think Ricciardo will be much better. I really wish Red Bull had put a top driver in that car alongside Vettel, someone that could really challenge him...but they won't do that, of course.

 

I'm really hoping that the new regs in 2014 will make the cars more equal...but I wouldn't bet on it.

[sopa]

Remember Brazil 2006. Schumacher took almost a full lap back after puncture.

[Kingshark]

Hungary 2010 is another potential choice, with Red Bull being 1.5-2 seconds faster than the nearest competition of Ferrari, around a relatively short lap.

[Risil]

There's something about the handling of the current generation of Red Bulls -- perhaps the blown diffusers, however it's achieved -- that Vettel seems to "get" and Webber doesn't.

 

I doubt Red Bull are falling over themselves to help Mark get on top of it, but the solution is a young driver with fewer set ideas on how an F1 car is supposed to be driven. Ricciardo's a step in the right direction but who knows if he's got the raw ability to match Vettel.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Germany 2003 with Montoya springs to mind. As does Monaco 2007 with McLaren and Brazil 2007 with Ferrari.

[sopa]

There's something about the handling of the current generation of Red Bulls -- perhaps the blown diffusers, however it's achieved -- that Vettel seems to "get" and Webber doesn't.

 

I doubt Red Bull are falling over themselves to help Mark get on top of it, but the solution is a young driver with fewer set ideas on how an F1 car is supposed to be driven. Ricciardo's a step in the right direction but who knows if he's got the raw ability to match Vettel.

 

Interesting view. Maybe that's why Red Bull thought Kimi is "too old", because the feature of Red Bull being a special car means it needs to be driven in a special way too - it has unique characteristics to make it dominant. And younger drivers can adapt better.

[Group B]

Its not just the RB car.  Webber is a half decent driver but there was no way he was going to stay with Vettel on this day.

Therefore: to just say "its the car" is a bit simplistic.

 

Indeed; Webber's no mug, but Vettel's just in an uber groove at the moment.

[Group B]

Interesting that Weber's car blew up but Vettel's didn't.

 

Yeah, RB & Renault did that on purpose in order to waste some money and piss away constructors points

[SR388]

Bill Elliott, 1985 at Talladega. Car was two laps down at one point. Came back to win it. 

[HP]

It's probably more Formula Vettel vs the rest, because Webber in the same car is level with Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus. Don't count Vettel and we have a cracker of a championship each year combined with cracking races.

Really? Then more or less it would have been a Formula Alonso.

[sheepgobba]

Bill Elliott, 1985 at Talladega. Car was two laps down at one point. Came back to win it. 

 

Not sure this is the response the OP had in mind

[dau]

Yeah, RB & Renault did that on purpose in order to waste some money and piss away constructors points

Was the only chance they had to stop Webber from catching up and challenging Vettel for the win. Read all about it in the WEB vs. VET thread as soon as karne has calmed down enough.

[HP]

Well it doesn't happen every race. BTW I was rather impressed that these days any driver could create such a huge gap against the rest of the field so he could comfortably make another pitstop.

 

I'm really hoping that the new regs in 2014 will make the cars more equal...but I wouldn't bet on it.

Actually next year might be more loop sided than this year, as regulation changes tend to widen gaps. And contrary to many I think aero will become more important as they need to become even better at optimizing it. The engines will be a talking point only until they are more or less equal to each other.

[DanardiF1]

What Red Bull seem to do is make sure that Webber has a car that scores decent points for most of the season... this guarantees that he takes points off WCC rivals and seals the championship for Red Bull, but Vettel's car is the one with all the bells and whistles on it that can steamroller the competition.

[joshb]

Vettel's speed was frighteningly quick today. You don't often see someone 2-3 secs faster than everyone in a dry race

or any race for that matter

Edited by joshb, 22 September 2013 - 15:20.

[fastwriter]

What Red Bull seem to do is make sure that Webber has a car that scores decent points for most of the season... this guarantees that he takes points off WCC rivals and seals the championship for Red Bull, but Vettel's car is the one with all the bells and whistles on it that can steamroller the competition.

I will tell you a secret: Only Vettel is in a Newey designed Red Bull. Webbers car was designed bei the Intern at RBR.

[topical]

Webber is a washed up has been with no motivation, he is no indicator of the car's pace. The tragedy is that Red Bull have chosen a useless driver in Ricciardo to replace him, rather than taking someone who can challenge Vettel. I wouldn't mind the RBR dominance so much if there was a good interteam battle like in 2010. But it's pretty much Schumacher-Irvine territory.

[CHIUNDA]

I find the question difficult to answer because of the performance of Webber, who showed no such extraordinary pace over the weekend. A really dominant car is one in which both drivers can cruise to victory, as was the case for Mclaren at Monaco 2007, for instance.

 

Do these two even use the same car? The performance difference is like from two different planets!

[George Costanza]

I think Monaco 2007 and Brazil 2007 are good examples.

 

As well as Japan 2002 with Michael Schumacher.

[Timothy]

Webber is a washed up has been with no motivation, he is no indicator of the car's pace. The tragedy is that Red Bull have chosen a useless driver in Ricciardo to replace him, rather than taking someone who can challenge Vettel. I wouldn't mind the RBR dominance so much if there was a good interteam battle like in 2010. But it's pretty much Schumacher-Irvine territory.

 

What do you mean "has been", he's never fought for the WDC outside these recent Neywey rocket ships

and we are meant to believe he's some kind of a benchmark?

[George Costanza]

Really? Then more or less it would have been a Formula Alonso.

 

Alonso in a Red Bull? Scary..... That's scary.

[TomNokoe]

Didn't McLaren finish 1-2 after qualifying 23-24 many moons ago?

Edit: at Long Beach, and it was 22-23!

Edited by TomNokoe, 22 September 2013 - 16:21.

[pRy]

Brawn GP's first year car was probably the last time prior to Redbull. That car was untouchable.

[fed up]

My guess is they have different cars. No way can one driver be 2 seconds a lap faster than his team mate in the same car.

 

I can remember a story once where Jonny Herbert claimed that there was no way he could drive Schumacher's car in the same team. I think one had TC the other didn't.

 

In the current climate of spec engines, spec tyres and cost cutting, something is not quite right with Vettel's pace. He's good but not that good.

 

Oh well

[George Costanza]

Brawn GP's first year car was probably the last time prior to Redbull. That car was untouchable.

 

yeah. Brawn's first half of 2009 was like Schumacher in 2002, 2004.

[rhukkas]

People using Mark Webber as a yard stick for performance

 

 

 

[fabr68]

Vettel is in another league. Webber can't touch him. Same car. 

 

I don't think Webber drives the same car since Multi 21

[Cyanide]

Sebastian Vettel to Motorsport-Magazin.com:

 

"While the others are going home to soak their testicles in their swimming pools, we are working on the car, trying to squeeze everything out of it."

 

Source: http://www.motorspor...er-in-den-pool/

[bub]

You can take Mark as reference point. No driver ever born in the world is able to lap TWO sec faster than the rest. Seb did a solid job, but that rough speed has come from RB.

I agree. Vettel is one of the best right now, maybe the best but I doubt he'd be able to do what he did this weekend in any of the other cars, especially if one of the other top drivers was in the Red Bull. Webber seems to be in Massa/Button-2012-slump kind of form.

Edited by bub, 22 September 2013 - 17:17.

[jjcale]

Vettel is in another league. Webber can't touch him. Same car. 

 

I was asking myself during the race .... do they really have the same car?

 

Its not possible for SV to be pulling away by more than a second at will and MW to be back in the pack making up the numbers.... even if SV is really good, it would also need MW to be really bad to account for that.... even after taking into account that the car was probably designed to run at the front and does not work as well in traffic.

 

What we saw today requires a rethink in order to explain it.

[krobinson]

 

Indeed; Webber's no mug, but Vettel's just in an uber groove at the moment.

You are joking right? Webber is one of the worst drivers on the grid at the moment. Red Bull was easily over a second per lap faster than any other car today, often at least 2 seconds faster. Webber is unmotivated, old and a joke, whose place is not in F1 anymore. A complete mug. 

Vettel is doing nothing special, anyone can win in that car. Put someone more talented like Hamilton, Kimi or Alonso in that car and vettel will be shown the way. 

He is nothing more than a newey-passenger, just like Hill was.

[jjcale]

People using Mark Webber as a yard stick for performance

 

 

 

 

I know what you mean .... but even MW is not that bad ,,, as someone said about, not only would he have to be rubbish but he would have to be having a JB 2012 style slump to explain how SV could lap at least a second a lap faster than the rest at will but he was struggling back in the pack.... this does not compute.

[krobinson]

yeah. Brawn's first half of 2009 was like Schumacher in 2002, 2004.

No, it was not. Some cars were often close to them and overall in 2009, Red Bull was the best car. Had RB had the luxury of having someone like Alonso or Hamilton in that car, they would have taken the WDC already that year. Sadly for them, they were stuck with someone far less talented.

[Vesuvius]

People using Mark Webber as a yard stick for performance

What's wrong with that? Same people who laugh to that use Massa as a yard stick for the greatness of Alonso...

[F1Champion]

What I don't understand is that RB started off the same as everyone else for at least 4-5 races. After that they are quicker and even with everyone else developing their cars, They are now 1 second a lap quicker than others. That just doesn't make sense. Are you saying Lotus, Ferrari, Mercedes are sitting on their arses. They ain't but RB blows them away. That amount of difference in season is unprecedented. I can understand if they start the season 1 second quicker. But not when they are level with others and end up a second quicker.   

 

Exhaust blow diffusers have ruined F1. The aero under the car and out of the diffuser should be from natural air flow not from exhaust gases. F1 would look totally different and better for it. The FIA made a huge mistake.

[Vesuvius]

No, it was not. Some cars were often close to them and overall in 2009, Red Bull was the best car. Had RB had the luxury of having someone like Alonso or Hamilton in that car, they would have taken the WDC already that year. Sadly for them, they were stuck with someone far less talented.

Brawn was dominant for the first half and only when RBR got same diffusor they were the best.