492 replies to this topic

[manodemono]

Undoubtedly Vettel is a great driver. Yet I am unable to think he is better than Michael Schumacher ever was but then Schu also had stratospheric cars in many of his campaigns.

 

If we were to add up their combined world titles (3 + 7) when did they actually have cars that were only “just there or thereabouts”?

 

Compare Vettel’s & Schu’s achievements to Senna or even Alonso who has narrowly missed the championship in all but one of the years he’s been at Ferrari in spite vastly inferior machinery.

[Diablobb81]

Compare  Schu’s achievements to Senna or even Alonso who has narrowly missed the championship in all but one of the years he’s been at Ferrari in spite vastly inferior machinery.

 

You might need to rewatch 15 or so seasons because your history is faulty.

[squall1981]

bit of both, if the car so so great why isn't webber second in the championship instead of 6th? why ha webber never ended rup in the championship? why is it  13-0 in qualy to vettel?

 

the car is great but so is the driver. imo Vettel is the best driver in f1 atm and only Alonso is anywhere near him.

 

Hamilton had the best car 2007,2008, 2012 and equal best in 2013 yet only has 1 title. Vettel maximises what  he is given

[Vesuvius]

Credit to the ones it belongs, Vettel and Red Bull are doing the best job and that's the fact...there is no point to compare Vettel and Schumacher.

Vettel had thereabout car 2009 (silver) and Schumi had thereabout car 96,97,98,99 just like Alonso had 2010 and 2012.

[sennafan24]

 

 

Hamilton had the best car 2007,2008, 2012 and equal best in 2013 yet only has 1 title. Vettel maximises what  he is given

I have to disagree about 2012 and 2013, the best car means nothing when your team makes loads of mistakes. As covered here

 

http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/

 

The McLaren was wildly inconsistent, strong one weekend and weak another. The Red Bull was not the best at every track, but was always there or there about's in the latter 2/3rds of the year.

 

2008 I thought the Ferrari was tad better than the McLaren as well, I can maybe agree on 2007 though.

 

Vettel has been the best driver on merit this year, but he also has had the best all round car if we are being honest.

 

Schumi won the title in 1995 when his car was not the best, he was racing in a depleted field of drivers, but he made the difference. 2000 Schumacher won on pure driver merit as well. his Ferrari was at the least only on par with the McLaren.

Edited by sennafan24, 22 September 2013 - 17:14.

[TomNokoe]

Hamilton had the best car 2007,2008, 2012 and equal best in 2013 yet only has 1 title. Vettel maximises what he is given

[krobinson]

 

 

Hamilton had the best car, 2012 and equal best in 2013 yet only has 1 title. Vettel maximises what  he is given

That is where people stopped taking you seriously.

 

Red Bull has been the dominant car since second half of 2009. That they lost the WDC in 2009 and almost lost it in 2010 and 2012 is a testament of how much a  newey passengers Vettel and Webber are.

 

Vettel is like Hill. Lucky to be in the best car for a long time, except the Red Bull has been even more dominant than the Williams was when Hill drove.

[squall1981]

whats funny?

 

2007 obviously fastest car, Alonso and Hamilton took pts from each other and Hamilton made many mistakes at the end

2008 kova made it look slower than it was but it was at least equal with Ferrari

2012 McLaren were the fastest car, they won more races in the second half of season, just because the car broke a few times doesn't make it slower, after all 2009 red bull was unreliable but people make out it was fastest

2013 fastest qualifying car easy has more poles from both drivers.red bull were struggling earlier in the season vettel still managed to take decent points and keep himself in contention and brilliantly defending from the 2 faster lotus cars for one win, the red bull has only been the outright fastest for the past 2-3 races, mercedees started faster, I would say they have been about equal so far

[sanW10]

 

Stratospheric Vettel or is it Newey’s cars?

I'd say combination of both.

Vettel & Webber have same car, but only one of them consistently maximizes the potential.

[Knot]

Car, team and driver have been very nearly faultless all year.

 

I have to disagree about 2012 and 2013, the best car means nothing when your team makes loads of mistakes. As covered here

 

http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/

 

The McLaren was wildly inconsistent, strong one weekend and weak another. The Red Bull was not the best at every track, but was always there or there about's in the latter 2/3rds of the year.

 

2008 I thought the Ferrari was tad better than the McLaren as well, I can maybe agree on 2007 though.

 

Vettel has been the best driver on merit this year, but he also has had the best all round car if we are being honest.

 

Schumi won the title in 1995 when his car was not the best, he was racing in a depleted field of drivers, but he made the difference. 2000 Schumacher won on pure driver merit as well. his Ferrari was at the least only on par with the McLaren.

 

Yep, that sums it up for me.

Edited by Knot, 22 September 2013 - 17:20.

[sennafan24]

whats funny?

 

 

2012 McLaren were the fastest car, they won more races in the second half of season, just because the car broke a few times doesn't make it slower

Again its performance varied, the class of the field one weekend and struggling for points another. Again I point you towards - http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/

 

The second half of the year was where the car varied most, so those stats are pretty non-reflective

 

It may have been the fastest car, but it was a unpolished diamond and far from the best package for a driver to have at their possession.

Edited by sennafan24, 22 September 2013 - 17:20.

[squall1981]

Again its performance varied, the class of the field one weekend and struggling for points another. Again I point you towards - http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/

 

The second half of the year was where the car varied most, so those stats are pretty non-reflective

 

It may have been the fastest car, but it was a unpolished diamond and far from the best package for a driver to have at their possession.

whats the difference between mcclaren 2012 and red bull 2010 then? seems like double standards

[krobinson]

 

2012 McLaren were the fastest car, they won more races in the second half of season, just because the car broke a few times doesn't make it slower, after all 2009 red bull was unreliable but people make out it was fastest

2013 fastest qualifying car easy has more poles from both drivers.red bull were struggling earlier in the season vettel still managed to take decent points and keep himself in contention and brilliantly defending from the 2 faster lotus cars for one win, the red bull has only been the outright fastest for the past 2-3 races, mercedees started faster, I would say they have been about equal so far

2012 - RB was the fastest car easily. McLaren were as fast in some races, but overall RB was on a different planet. 

2013- Mercedes are close to RB in qualifying, but in racepace, due to their tyre problems, they are not even close to RB. Only some mega laps from their drivers, especially Hamilton have gotten them some poles.

Red Bull only outright fastest in the last 2-3 races?    Jesus. Just no words.

There are maybe 2 races overall this season where RB has not been the car to have.

[JohnCooperF1]

5..... 4..... 3.... 2.... 1....

 

[jedioriginal]

I think it is both. There is something in Seb's driving style that suits extremely well to Newey's cars.

[Vesuvius]

2012 - RB was the fastest car easily. McLaren were as fast in some races, but overall RB was on a different planet.
2013- Mercedes are close to RB in qualifying, but in racepace, due to their tyre problems, they are not even close to RB. Only some mega laps from their drivers, especially Hamilton have gotten them some poles.
Red Bull only outright fastest in the last 2-3 races? Jesus. Just no words.
There are maybe 2 races overall this season where RB has not been the car to have.

2012 are you kidding? McLaren was the fastest car but it unreliable, RBR was hardly ever from different planet that year.
2013 there is no doubt RBR has been overally best car and last three races it has been clearly the best....but there has been lots of races when Mercedes,Ferrari and Lotus has been better cars.

[squall1981]

Only some mega laps from their drivers, especially Hamilton have gotten them some poles.

 

,.................

 

this would be more believable if it weren't for rosberg getting his share of wins/poles. surely with such a dominant car webber would be doing likewise

[pizzalover]

There are multipliers when you're the fastest car/driver combination. You're relaxed and confident, your rivals are left to fight over scraps.

[rhukkas]

There isn't a team on the grid who would rather have Vettel over Newey.

[Knot]

Actually, guys, this is all my fault.

 

I'm being made to pay for the unmitigated glee I exhibited when Schu ran away from the field from 2000-2004.

 

 

History repeats itself. Excellent car + excellent driver = unstoppable.

[RockyRaccoon68]

Seb is a phenomenal talent but so are the other top drivers out there.  You don't dominate the way he has without phenomenal cars, particularly when you're up against someone like Fernando Alonso.

[sennafan24]

whats the difference between mcclaren 2012 and red bull 2010 then? seems like double standards

Massive difference.

 

Red Bull in 2010 has a efficient team that did not make as many gaffes as the Mclaren did in 2012. Even if you were to give me a blanket stat that showed that both had the same mechanical DNF's, this does not account for slow pit stops, differing performances and suspension hindering (all of which Lewis suffered in 2012)

 

Look above and you can see I am not just arguing for one side in this debate.

[krobinson]

2012 are you kidding? McLaren was the fastest car but it unreliable, RBR was hardly ever from different planet that year.
2013 there is no doubt RBR has been overally best car and last three races it has been clearly the best....but there has been lots of races when Mercedes,Ferrari and Lotus has been better cars.

2012 - no. McLaren was not as fast as Red Bull. I looked over the situations from last year and it is no contest, RB was far better.

2013 - Lots of races? Really? Lotus sometimes matches them in racepace (australia and The ring), but they are far worse in qualifying. Ferrari was better in Spain. That is it. 

Edited by krobinson, 22 September 2013 - 17:30.

[Diablobb81]

There isn't a team on the grid who would rather have Vettel over Newey.

 

Are you sure? Because Newey is a terrible driver.

[F1Champion]

Hamilton had the best car 2007,2008, 2012 and equal best in 2013 yet only has 1 title. Vettel maximises what  he is given

 HA HA HA. Are you serious? McLaren was better over the season than RB in 2012? Equal to RB in 2013? Yeah whatever you say. 

 

There is no doubt that Vettel is a good driver but he would be nowhere without Newey's rocket ship. Put him in a Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes and you get no WDC's......its not hard to see.

Edited by F1Champion, 22 September 2013 - 17:34.

[discover23]

Seb is a phenomenal talent but so are the other top drivers out there. You don't dominate the way he has without phenomenal cars, particularly when you're up against someone like Fernando Alonso.

Well said

[squall1981]

Massive difference.

 

Red Bull in 2010 has a efficient team that did not make as many gaffes as the Mclaren did in 2012. Even if you were to give me a blanket stat that showed that both had the same mechanical DNF's, this does not account for slow pit stops, differing performances and suspension hindering (all of which Lewis suffered in 2012)

 

Look above and you can see I am not just arguing for one side in this debate.

but it isn't always someone elses fault though. who's fault was it when Hamilton pitted in the wrong spot? or the past couple races/quali's where even Hamilton admitted he wasn't fast enough? im not saying Hamilton isn't a good driver but vettel seems to get everything perfect 99% of the time and that makes a difference - he maximises what he has, apart from maybe Alonso there is no other driver who is anywhere near as consistant. I mean I couldn't imagine him having a season like hamiltons 2011 crashfest could you?

[Vesuvius]

2012 - no. McLaren was not as fast as Red Bull. I looked over the situations from last year and it is no contest, RB was far better.
2013 - Lots of races? Really? Lotus sometimes matches them in racepace (australia and The ring), but they are far worse in qualifying. Ferrari was better in Spain. That is it.

2012 show some evidence...
2013 Lotus has been better car than RBR at melbourne, nurburgring,hungary,spain,china, close at bahrain...Ferrari was better at melbourne,spain,china and close at bahrain

[prty]

With 2+ seconds a lap in the dry, there cannot be even a discussion about whether it's the car or the driver.

[Vesuvius]

With 2+ seconds a lap in the dry, there cannot be even a discussion about whether it's the car or the driver.

But not the whole difference comes from the car ;)

[bub]

Vettel has probably been joint best driver in the past few years overall but has had overall better cars and luck.

2013 and 2011 he drove brilliantly was probably the best driver but definitely had the best car. 2012 I'd say he was joint best driver with Hamilton and Alonso but had better luck/team/car combination. 2010 I'm not sure, was probably one of the best drivers but not necessarily better than everyone else. Vettel has driven as well as anyone and deserves his WDC's but 2 of them were very close (luck played a part) and 1 of them he had a clear car advantage. I think Vettel is as good as anyone out there but I don't think he's better or much better than everyone else as 3, possibly 4 consecutive WDC's might make it appear.

Edited by bub, 22 September 2013 - 19:59.

[maverick69]

I dunno. But it has been a long time since I've sat there looking at the live timing and seeing a driver constantly pulling away at 2-2.5 secs per lap in "normal", like for like conditions.

 

Seb is  a great driver. Without doubt one of the very best......... But he's not 2 and a bit seconds a lap quicker than his top-level peers...... and his teammate for that matter.

 

Red Bull have defiantly made a massive gain with their farty-poppy mapping and EBD. Because there is not another performance differentiator on the car that will give you those kind of gains.

[sennafan24]

but it isn't always someone elses fault though. who's fault was it when Hamilton pitted in the wrong spot? or the past couple races/quali's where even Hamilton admitted he wasn't fast enough? im not saying Hamilton isn't a good driver but vettel seems to get everything perfect 99% of the time and that makes a difference - he maximises what he has, apart from maybe Alonso there is no other driver who is anywhere near as consistant. I mean I couldn't imagine him having a season like hamiltons 2011 crashfest could you?

I have always held Lewis responsible for his dismal 2011 efforts, but you cited 2012 when it was not Lewis's performance that was to blame. The wrong pit stop was 2013, it has no relevance to 2012 which we are debating, and it is not relevant to who has the best car this year.

 

Vettel does make few mistakes and is a cracking driver indeed, I am not debating that with you.

Edited by sennafan24, 22 September 2013 - 17:40.

[Group B]

In answer to the OP, it's obviously a bit of both; great car paired with top driver in uber groove.

[squall1981]

but I don't think he's better or much better than everone else

 

..............

 

your post confuses me, first you state he was the best driver in 2011, joint best in 2012 and best in 2013, then you say this?

 

3 years is a fairly large period of time to guage the pecking order.

[nosecone]

BOTH

[manodemono]

With 2+ seconds a lap in the dry, there cannot be even a discussion about whether it's the car or the driver.

 

This is exactly what I meant. There have been many, many races when Vettel's car has had this level of superiority in the past 4 SEASONS! No other car has been anywhere near RB's level these past 4 years.

[krobinson]

2012 show some evidence...
2013 Lotus has been better car than RBR at melbourne, nurburgring,hungary,spain,china, close at bahrain...Ferrari was better at melbourne,spain,china and close at bahrain

 

Why don't you show some evidence about McLaren being better than Red Bull in 2012?

 

2013 - I will take it one by one.

Lotus:

Melbourne - Possibly, possibly not. Fact is that Red Bull was over a second faster in qualifying. 

China - No. RB themselves messed up their strategy.

The ring - Even if Red Bull was not faster in the race, it was much better in qualifying, just as always. That was enough.

Spain - Probably yes.

Bahrain - did you even watch the race? Red Bull was far better, it was very dominant. 

Hungary- no. Vettel himself messed up his qualifying and then simply sucked in the race. Red Bull was faster than Lotus there and even RB guys said they should have won that weekend.

 

Ferrari-

Melbourne - no. They were equal there.

Spain - yes

China - They were equal there.

Bahrain - No proof to that.

[Lights]

Red Bull is simply unmatched in mechanical grip and ride quality, particularly in the second half of the season, year on year. This aids a lot of confidence and consistency in driving.

[krobinson]

But not the whole difference comes from the car ;)

Yeah, probably the Red Bull drivers are masking the true performance of the car. Alonso would have probably lapped everyone in that car today.

[chrcol]

Red Bull is simply unmatched in mechanical grip and ride quality, particularly in the second half of the season, year on year. This aids a lot of confidence and consistency in driving.

 

I agree, they seem to develop more than other teams later on and I think this year webber isnt getting the upgrades likely due to him not been there next year.  However good vettel may be I dont think his skill is a 2+ sec gap per lap.

[1Devil1]

please lock that

[1Devil1]

Yeah, probably the Red Bull drivers are masking the true performance of the car. Alonso would have probably lapped everyone in that car today.

 

You are so much fun, you anti-Vettel agenda, haters from both sides are in this thread, hilarious  

[HamiltonFanboy]

Vettel is obviously an extremely talented driver but the ease that he pulls away at the start of the races and after safety cars says it all for me. That is the true pace of the Red Bull when they are not managing tyres or faking brake issues to slow him down. The car is just something else, you can see it from the onboards at the final corner of Singapore, it looks like it has 15% more grip than anything else out there. It probably has more of an advantage now than it ever did in 2010 or 2011. Webber is also a very bad benchmark for the car because he is constantly botching his starts and getting stuck in traffic but take nothing away from Vettel he is doing the job perfectly. He is also no superhuman though and we saw that at the beginning of 2012 when the car wasn't 100% balanced he found it very hard to compete at the front.

 

The sad thing is he could of finished 60+ seconds ahead of everyone today in a clean race. And there's no way anyone is telling me that Vettel is 60 seconds faster over a race distance than Alonso. No way at all so my vote goes to the car being supreme. Newey cars do have a habit of making very good drivers look absolutely unstoppable.

[nosecone]

please lock that

 

this thread will be full of people with pseudo-scientific arguments... And soon it wil run crazy. Nobody will agree that he was wrong.

 

A car doesn't drive without a driver. A driver doesn't drive without a car.

[George Costanza]

These threads are getting old fast...

 

It's like Schumacher and Brawn.

 

That is where people stopped taking you seriously.

 

Red Bull has been the dominant car since second half of 2009. That they lost the WDC in 2009 and almost lost it in 2010 and 2012 is a testament of how much a  newey passengers Vettel and Webber are.

 

Vettel is like Hill. Lucky to be in the best car for a long time, except the Red Bull has been even more dominant than the Williams was when Hill drove.

 

 

Danon Hill had Michael Schumacher battling with him, and plus, Ayrton had died.... Now, if Ayrton lived, would anyone be debating the Newey and Senna combination? Senna would have probably been a 5-7 time world champion if he stayed with Willaims forever.

 

Had Senna lived, I think Schumacher would have been in a Newey car, and would anyone be complaining then?

Edited by George Costanza, 22 September 2013 - 17:58.

[Timantti]

There isn't a team on the grid who would rather have Vettel over Newey.

 

I don't think there's a team on the grid who would rather have Alonso or Hamilton over Newey. Just saying.

[spacekid]

I'm sorry, has F1 only just begun and I imagined all the other seasons I watched?

 

Its both. A top driver in a top car = domination in certain circumstances.

 

I'm tired of seeing this - 'Seb was pulling away 2 seconds a lap, so it must be the car that is amazing and he is a no talent mark', malarky.

 

Seb was pulling away 2 seconds a lap from Nico who was forming a train behind him, for whatever reason, on a circuit that is tricky to get by on. A train that included another Red Bull.

 

Many, many times over the years have I seen the combination of a team, which includes the driver, getting the package completely hooked up and the rest of the pack not being able to live wth them. Its nothing new.

[discover23]

Even during the young driver test , RedBull tops the charts, and that is even before the season starts. During the year that gap against the other teams grows.

[OO7]

Red Bull is simply unmatched in mechanical grip and ride quality, particularly in the second half of the season, year on year. This aids a lot of confidence and consistency in driving.

Agreed.  Seb has been brilliant, but the RB9 is clearly in a league of its own.  As for Mark, he has had some really bad luck, but he has also performed quite poorly in comparison.  He has not out-qualified Seb on one single occasion, even on those final Q3 runs where Seb admitted to making mistakes.  When both have finished a GP he has always finished behind.  I don't know if Malaysia broke him, but he definitely made the correct decision to exit F1 at the end of the year.