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Perez Hulkenberg incident


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#1 dreamer

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:08

Can anyone explain to me why Hulkenberg had to give the position? He was always in front of Perez.



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#2 ANF

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:13

It would be easier to explain why Obama was awarded the Nobel peace prize.



#3 ensign14

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:31

Can anyone explain to me why Hulkenberg had to give the position? He was always in front of Perez.

He only stayed ahead of him by going off track. Had his named rhymed with Bichael Boobacher, he'd've got away with it.

#4 Sin

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:33

He was pushed off the track by Perez.... what should he have done the same as Kimi in Monaco?



#5 Der Pate

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:35

With these stewards F1 is becoming ridiculous...

#6 Paul Parker

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:37

He only stayed ahead of him by going off track. Had his named rhymed with Bichael Boobacher, he'd've got away with it.

Very droll, I like this, very apt.



#7 sopa

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:37

One of the oddest penalties.

 

Basically it gives more power to chasing drivers. From now on instead of overtaking (which could bring a penalty!) they can push drivers in front off the track and get a penalty for the driver in front.:D



#8 skywing

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:38

One of the oddest penalties.

 

Basically it gives more power to chasing drivers. From now on instead of overtaking (which could bring a penalty!) they can push drivers in front off the track and get a penalty for the driver in front. :D

Isn't that what Perez did the whole race in Monaco.



#9 sopa

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:46

Isn't that what Perez did the whole race in Monaco.

 

Aye, I remember that. Alonso was even instructed to give place "back" to Perez.



#10 spacekid

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:56

I thought it was a poor decision. Hulk was ahead the whole time and was essentially driven off the road by Perez in my view. They even made contact.

 

I would have shrugged my shoulders and said - meh, racing - but the stewards this race saw it a different way.



#11 trogggy

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:10

This is the first time in years I've just been bemused by a stewarding decision.  Normally you can see why they've given a penalty, even if it's arguable.  This time I, at least, can't.



#12 Lights

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:11

I missed it during the race. Does anyone have any footage of it?



#13 jedioriginal

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:22

Basic Perez,this dude is a frigging idiot.Kimi was right,somebody should punch him in to face before hi kills someone.I really don't get judges,they side with Perez all the time.

#14 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:44

Wasn't it exactly what happened to Webber (?) a few years ago at the same corner? He maintained the position round the outside of the curb at T7.



#15 midgrid

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 21:20

Wasn't it exactly what happened to Webber (?) a few years ago at the same corner? He maintained the position round the outside of the curb at T7.


Yes, I think it was in 2010 if I remember correctly. This decision was harsh on Hülkenberg, but when I saw the incident unfolding I immediately thought back to the Webber precedent, and assumed that the stewards might do as well.

#16 Kimble

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 21:20

Yes, I'm totally puzzled by this one.  It's as if the stewards didn't see the contact but Hulk has valid grounds to be upset.



#17 Juan Kerr

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 22:07

I thought it was a poor decision. Hulk was ahead the whole time and was essentially driven off the road by Perez in my view. They even made contact.

 

I would have shrugged my shoulders and said - meh, racing - but the stewards this race saw it a different way.

I think the stewards got confused in the heat of the moment, for some reason they imagined that Hulkenburg was making a pass at Perez and pulled it off by going straight on over the exit kerb. Not the case, Perez stuffed his car down the inside, Hulkenburg gave space for him to do this but Perez ran into Hulkenburg's space as he so often does with other drivers nudging him in the process. Hulkenburg ran over the exit kerb whilst gathering the car up, he did not gain a place in order to be able to give one away! Derek Warwick clearly made a retarded decision.



#18 Jejking

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 22:45

Was there a touch or not? That's the main question. I think Perez 'shoved' Hulk off the track actually.



#19 Claudius

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 22:50

I'm pretty sure I saw contact from the overhead camera.

No way was this a penalty for Hulk. I don't know what the stewards were thinking.



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#20 trogggy

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 22:57

100% yes, they touched.  On the overhead you could see Hulkenberg change direction when they did.



#21 redreni

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 22:59

The only two sane decisions available were (1) no action or (2) penalty for Perez for causing a collision. Penalising the Hulk for going off after being hit is right up there with the Montreal Q2 pit-lane-etiquette decision for irrationality bordering on mental illness. Third worst bit of F1 officiating this season, in my judgement.



#22 coppilcus

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:01

It's unclear also if that was an instruction from the stewards or an choice taken by Sauber, earlier in the race someone had to do the same...

#23 scheivlak

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:04

Derek Warwick clearly made a retarded decision.

It'a collective decision.
That said, Warwick has not impressed me as a driver steward, to put it mildly.

#24 Les

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:05

At 6:30 in this video Arnoux clearly takes advantage by going clear off the circuit. A penalty surely?

 


Edited by Les, 22 September 2013 - 23:05.


#25 Wander

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:17

It's unclear also if that was an instruction from the stewards or an choice taken by Sauber, earlier in the race someone had to do the same...

Impossible that it was just a choice made by Sauber. Impossible.



#26 drag

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:25

retarded decision,they are getting on my nerves this stewards .....this one its hard to accept,what he could Hulk do,except give position which eventually did with advise from the stewards  :down:



#27 coppilcus

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:31

Impossible that it was just a choice made by Sauber. Impossible.


It happens all the time... This season happened at Monaco with Alonso and Perez.

#28 Brother Fox

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:43

One of the oddest penalties.

 

Basically it gives more power to chasing drivers. From now on instead of overtaking (which could bring a penalty!) they can push drivers in front off the track and get a penalty for the driver in front. :D

 

Isn't that what Perez did the whole race in Monaco.

 

 

A 'Whiting Pass' as someone here called it.

You stuff it up the inside, knowing that the other guy is smarter than you and will save his car by going off - then bitch on the radio to Charlie Whiting.

He's become the master of it.

 

 

However, I maybe wrong but didn't Grosjean get penalised in Hungary (?) for something very similar?



#29 ANF

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:49



I guess the stewards rather would have had an incident like this than let Hülkenberg leave the track to avoid it.



#30 SPBHM

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:49

At 6:30 in this video Arnoux clearly takes advantage by going clear off the circuit. A penalty surely?

 

 

 

the video is not from 2013, or 2012 or anything near current F1, rules are not the same, for a reason... with the current run-off areas it's a lot easier to gain an advantage by going outside the track limits...

 

 

as for Hulkenberg vs Perez. would Hulkenberg hold the position if going outside the track was clearly slower, like grass? would he decide to go outside the track, without slowing down if he knew it was unsafe or simply go outside if he knew it was slower? I think the punishment was understandable.



#31 weareracing

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 23:57

SPBHM.

Hulkenberg did not decide to go outside the track, contact from Perez once again misjudging a move pushed him off track.

Beginning to think that Carlos Slim and his money are protecting Checo from ANY punishment, he is by far the most reckless midfield driver of 2013.

1st GP Win for Checo ?

Mexico 2014 :smoking:  



#32 SPBHM

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 00:37

SPBHM.

Hulkenberg did not decide to go outside the track, contact from Perez once again misjudging a move pushed him off track.

Beginning to think that Carlos Slim and his money are protecting Checo from ANY punishment, he is by far the most reckless midfield driver of 2013.

1st GP Win for Checo ?

Mexico 2014 :smoking:  

 

yes he made the choice, and also made the choice of keeping his foot down and as a result gaining an advantage while going outside the track limits while fighting for that position.


Edited by SPBHM, 23 September 2013 - 00:37.


#33 coppilcus

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 00:42

SPBHM.
Hulkenberg did not decide to go outside the track, contact from Perez once again misjudging a move pushed him off track.
Beginning to think that Carlos Slim and his money are protecting Checo from ANY punishment, he is by far the most reckless midfield driver of 2013.
1st GP Win for Checo ?
Mexico 2014 :smoking:


Absurd... And every season at F1 he had been punished by the stewards.

#34 ardbeg

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 00:52

I was sure they would give a penalty to Perez, he definitely have earned one this season. I think he has gotten away with everything so far? it was classic Perez, zero respect for the opponent. I despise him.



#35 coppilcus

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 00:55

yes he made the choice, and also made the choice of keeping his foot down and as a result gaining an advantage while going outside the track limits while fighting for that position.


Tough days ahead for Sergio, he isn't helping his own case lately, have to be honest about that one, and has all the press over him... It's hard too change someone's mind about something when you've got everything against you, but putting Perez in the same league as Maldonado and Grosjean is madness, he hasn't put anyone's life at risk.

In this race Kimi squeezed button to the wall and nobody said something, it was buttons choice to not have an accident and that's why everyone is talking about a marvellous move by the Finn, but that incident was more at fault than the incident between Perez and hulk...

#36 Collective

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:10

BS that penalty. But to say Perez deserved a penalty is equally BS.

Have you noticed that Warwick's presence as steward directly correlates with how stupid stewarding decisions are?

#37 pingu666

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:13

its a shame you can force someone off track, and then have them have to give up the place.

imo the rule should be, unless you leave a cars width, then **** off with your bitching, its your own damn fault, you shouldnt gain a place by forcing someone offtrack, or defend a place by doing it.



#38 Wander

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:23

Tough days ahead for Sergio, he isn't helping his own case lately, have to be honest about that one, and has all the press over him... It's hard too change someone's mind about something when you've got everything against you, but putting Perez in the same league as Maldonado and Grosjean is madness, he hasn't put anyone's life at risk.

In this race Kimi squeezed button to the wall and nobody said something, it was buttons choice to not have an accident and that's why everyone is talking about a marvellous move by the Finn, but that incident was more at fault than the incident between Perez and hulk...

 

What are you talking about. When did Kimi squeeze Button?



#39 coppilcus

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:41

What are you talking about. When did Kimi squeeze Button?

On the move for the last step of the podium... Button had to place his car way off the racing line to avoid hitting Kimi.

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#40 Wander

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:09

On the move for the last step of the podium... Button had to place his car way off the racing line to avoid hitting Kimi.

 

No he didn't. He was already off the racing line when he went inside to defend. Kimi also left him plenty of room. Button did not have to hit any walls and in fact the two went through the corner comfortably side by side.

 

This is also an absolutely ridiculous comment, because it isn't like Kimi would've just turned into Button if Button hadn't turned for the corner himself. Kimi took the space, cause it was there to be taken.



#41 CoolBreeze

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:13

Silly decision. Just like the Webber-Alo penalty. 



#42 coppilcus

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:29

No he didn't. He was already off the racing line when he went inside to defend. Kimi also left him plenty of room. Button did not have to hit any walls and in fact the two went through the corner comfortably side by side.
 
This is also an absolutely ridiculous comment, because it isn't like Kimi would've just turned into Button if Button hadn't turned for the corner himself. Kimi took the space, cause it was there to be taken.


Yeah, right... Space you've noticed from your living room, that's ridiculous indeed.

On sky both manoeuvres from Kimi were analysed, on the first one there wasn't space at all, contact didn't happened because of a miracle, and. In the second move on button, the Brit avoid the accident by placing his car way inside the kerb and into the wall... Button decided not to have an accident.

#43 Wander

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:34

Yeah, right... Space you've noticed from your living room, that's ridiculous indeed.

On sky both manoeuvres from Kimi were analysed, on the first one there wasn't space at all, contact didn't happened because of a miracle, and. In the second move on button, the Brit avoid the accident by placing his car way inside the kerb and into the wall... Button decided not to have an accident.

 

Smart cookie. I wonder how many drivers out there would've decided to have an accident.



#44 coppilcus

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:52

Smart cookie. I wonder how many drivers out there would've decided to have an accident.


A few actually... Championships have been lost or won by causing or avoiding accidents.

Do you like it or not, does your living room is the perfect place to watch a race or not, button had to placed his car way off into the kerb and way to close to the wall because Kimi was over optimistic going through the outside on that corner...

Call it what you like to, is cookie stewards suitable?

#45 Wander

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:11

A few actually... Championships have been lost or won by causing or avoiding accidents.

Do you like it or not, does your living room is the perfect place to watch a race or not, button had to placed his car way off into the kerb and way to close to the wall because Kimi was over optimistic going through the outside on that corner...

Call it what you like to, is cookie stewards suitable?

 

Whether you like it or not, Kimi was already ahead going to the breaking zone. It was his line to take. And what exactly is too close to the wall? What I would call over optimistic is Perez at Monaco this year. In this particular overtake there was no contact, no mention from Button = no issue. It was on the edge, but it was perfectly judged.

 

And I don't know what you are implying anyway. That that move required a penalty from the stewards?



#46 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:20

Don't think Perez did anything really that wrong, he had a sniff down the inside that the Hulk defended ably by using the outside line... the exit of that corner if you are intending to respect the track limits is quite tight, and Perez was understeering towards Nico's Sauber just after the apex, so it was common sense for Nico to get out of any danger by moving towards the kerb.

 

Like he then says after the race, those kerbs once you're on them do drag the car over, so he literally had no choice other than to go off track to prevent contact happening. As I've mentioned I don't think Perez was necessarily doing anything 'wrong', but it is becoming a habit of his to put the other driver in varying degrees of compromising positions and then expecting them to just get out of the way.

 

At no point was Perez going to pass Nico there, at no point did Nico stop a position being gained by leaving the circuit, and his actions prevented an incident... so there was no reason for the stewards, Charlie or anyone to tell Nico to give the place 'back'.

 

Stupidity in extremis.



#47 nookie

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:27

He only stayed ahead of him by going off track. Had his named rhymed with Bichael Boobacher, he'd've got away with it.

then kimi should have been ordered to give the position back to bottas as well. and esteban went off track too and gained a position too.



#48 redreni

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:39

In fairness to Derek Warwick, who is a wally, the instruction for the Hulk to let Perez through came from Whiting, who is an even bigger wally. Sauber had the option to disregard Charlie‘s advice in which case it would have been referred to the stewards for a decision. The trouble is, from Sauber‘s perspective, if the stewards look at it and agree with Whiting, they won‘t just say "let him by"; they will issue a drive-through. There‘s no right of appeal. That would have scuppered the Hulk‘s chances of points. Given that the cost of obeying Whiting was only 1 position, they would have had a lot more to lose than they had to gain by allowing the matter to go to the stewards.

#49 Der Pate

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:00

It seems to me, that the McLaren-team is always the first to go crying at race-control after losing a fight on the track. And it also seems to me, that race-control very often decides in favour for McLaren...

 

I was a fan of Perez last season and really was looking forward for his performance at McLaren, but until now he only showed some stupid moves, when he gets himself in pointless fights with various drivers even his teammate.



#50 Rinehart

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:11

Hulk does the sensible thing and gives a bit of room on corner entry to save both of them from contact, and compromised his own corner exit. And gets a penalty for it.

 

20 years ago this sort of racing was commonplace and appreciated. Now all we hear is that standards are not what they used to be... go figure!