240 replies to this topic

[sennafan24]

 

 

I do think part of the reason RBR is so dominant at this point in the season is SV's performance earlier in the year when the RBR was struggling.  By emerging ahead in the WDC, and then winning when the RBR was the best, he had effectively ended the WDC hunt with seven races left, forcing Ferrari and Mercedes' hand into putting their resources towards 2014, rather than trying to compete with RBR this year.

 

Effectively ending the WDC race with seven races to go is an amazing accomplishment considering the RBR was struggling the first part of the season, unlike 2011.

Agreed, Seb has been a pillow of consistency this year. The fact that I consider Hungary his worst performance, and he got a podium there speaks volumes.

 

By far his best year, and a above average year in comparison to other Championship drivers in the not to distant past.

[alframsey]

Not bitter at all.

 

All the other drivers are just sick and tired of the Red Bull dominance, they want seasons like 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012 in which multiple cars had somewhat similar performance.

 

Now its just like the Schumacher era all over again, the only time someone else wins is when they **** up.

Is it though? Until very recently Merc were the quickest car, it is only the past three races that RBR have had a big advantage.

[Rinehart]

He's not that far ahead. Singapore had its context. Its the consistency that is allowing him to dominate the championship. All it would have taken is a couple of DNFs - normal by anyone elses standards and the Championship would be bang on.

[Torch]

I like the computer game analogy.

 

Do you put it on easy and choose the best car?

 

Or you do you put it on extra hard and fight it out to the end.

 

I'm not suggesting Vettel hasn’t done a great job (maybe the best job), but I can understand why someone would PREFER to prove themselves in machinery that is a bit closer to the rest of the field.

 

Also some drivers want/demand a rubbish number 2 team mate, some don't.

[Winter98]

Agreed, Seb has been a pillow of consistency this year. The fact that I consider Hungary his worst performance, and he got a podium there speaks volumes.

 

By far his best year, and a above average year in comparison to other Championship drivers in the not to distant past.

I'm hoping Mercedes can consistently put LH on the front row next year.  LH is clearly one of the quickest drivers in F1, and SV looks like he's going to be bringing his A game for the next few years.

 

No matter who won, a season long battle between SV and LH would be epic.

[ANF]

And all I can say to that is "bullshit".

[ViMaMo]

With words like these, I now understand, why Hamilton is not a champion on the level of his idol Senna.

 

AS loved to dominate the rest of the field, he has 19 start/finish-victories - by far the most of all F1 drivers. He wanted to find the last millisecond every time he stepped into the car. He wanted to annihilate his opposition. That's why he was such a great champion. Maybe Hamilton lacks this kind of motivation.

 

By the way: Senna never got booed for this kind of dominance.

 

I love Senna but doesn't he get booed for crashing into Prost on forums since the internet was born? 

[DrivenF1]

Is it though? Until very recently Merc were the quickest car, it is only the past three races that RBR have had a big advantage.

 

To begin with:

 

Qualifying

 

Mercedes

Red Bull

.

.

.

Ferrari

Lotus

 

Race

 

Lotus

Ferrari

Red Bull

.

.

.

.

Mercedes

 

Now it's:

 

Qualifying

 

Red Bull

Mercedes

.

.

.

Lotus

Ferrari

 

Race

 

Red Bull

Lotus

Ferrari

.

Mercedes

 

All this means is that we no longer have the illusion that anyone can compete with Red Bull. Mercedes used to provide some relief as well as the heavily degrading tyres which caused Red Bull race problems.

Edited by Cult, 26 September 2013 - 16:19.

[jjcale]

Agreed, Seb has been a pillow of consistency this year. The fact that I consider Hungary his worst performance, and he got a podium there speaks volumes.

 

By far his best year, and a above average year in comparison to other Championship drivers in the not to distant past.

+ 1 .... his best season by far IMO

[apoka]

+ 1 .... his best season by far IMO

 

2011 was great. He only lost a single position due a mistake all season long, mastered all the critical phases to maximize points and kept winning when McLaren got close in the second half. One of the best seasons I've ever seen (closer competition than Mansell '92 or MS in '02 and '04 but similar results). It doesn't really get much better than that (well, except that there was no need to be that good to take home the WDC ;) ). However, if he keeps up the consistency this year, then 2013 could indeed become even better.

[Nonesuch]

2011 was great. He only lost a single position due a mistake all season long, mastered all the critical phases to maximize points and kept winning when McLaren got close in the second half. One of the best seasons I've ever seen (closer competition than Mansell '92 or MS in '02 and '04 but similar results). It doesn't really get much better than that (well, except that there was no need to be that good to take home the WDC ;) ). However, if he keeps up the consistency this year, then 2013 could indeed become even better.

 

Right. I remember doing calculations on Vettel's 2011 season in comparison to Schumacher's amazing all-podium 2002. If I remember correctly, Vettel was on course to beating Schumacher's percentage of the maximum points that year. Obviously his DNF in Abu Dhabi put an end to that.

[Cenotaph]

Vettel did a terrific job in all his championships. 2010 was a bit overshadowed by the two crashes he caused but he bounced back and dealt with the pressure like a true champion. And as the youngest ever to win, mistakes are to be expected.

Edited by Cenotaph, 26 September 2013 - 21:30.

[Raven8]

I like the computer game analogy.

 

Do you put it on easy and choose the best car?

 

Or you do you put it on extra hard and fight it out to the end.

 

I'm not suggesting Vettel hasn’t done a great job (maybe the best job), but I can understand why someone would PREFER to prove themselves in machinery that is a bit closer to the rest of the field.

 

Also some drivers want/demand a rubbish number 2 team mate, some don't.

I believe Hamilton, when he says he rather wants to fight than to cruise for a victory. A victory tastes  much sweeter if it was difficult to get. It simply more satisfying to have a real challenge and then finally to succeed, than to have it handed relatively easy to you.

[Tropicana]

You people are missing point here. Certain people hate Hamilton so much it does not matter what he says they will attack him for it. If he had said he wanted a car that was as dominant as the Red Bull those same people would have found a way to attack him for wanting to do things the easy way e.t.c. We all know why certain types of people hate Hamilton. They just would never admit it.

[sennafan24]

You people are missing point here. Certain people hate Hamilton so much it does not matter what he says they will attack him for it. If he had said he wanted a car that was as dominant as the Red Bull those same people would have found a way to attack him for wanting to do things the easy way e.t.c. We all know why certain types of people hate Hamilton. They just would never admit it.

Its true, people have a unhealthy obsession with disliking Lewis. On here it is not as bad as other F1 discussion sites on the web, to be balanced Seb also gets a lot of **** as well.

 

Kimi and Alonso mostly get away with from any serious unjustified abuse.

[Briz]

I like the computer game analogy.

 

Do you put it on easy and choose the best car?

 

Or you do you put it on extra hard and fight it out to the end.

 

I'm not suggesting Vettel hasn’t done a great job (maybe the best job), but I can understand why someone would PREFER to prove themselves in machinery that is a bit closer to the rest of the field.

 

Also some drivers want/demand a rubbish number 2 team mate, some don't.

 

Vettel I think understands very well the concept of F1 being a team sport, it's him plus the team and they are winning F1 on extra hard most probably 4 times in a row. The harder they are beating the rest, the better they are doing it. That's pretty much it from his perspective I think so he must feel great. Wanting to win but not in a dominant way is definitely not the norm, it is a more extravagant choice that can be respected too of course.

[lbennie]

+ 1 .... his best season by far IMO

 

Agreed, Seb has been a monster this year.

[pingu666]

Vettel I think understands very well the concept of F1 being a team sport, it's him plus the team and they are winning F1 on extra hard most probably 4 times in a row. The harder they are beating the rest, the better they are doing it. That's pretty much it from his perspective I think so he must feel great. Wanting to win but not in a dominant way is definitely not the norm, it is a more extravagant choice that can be respected too of course.

 

at some point hes going to want a fresh challenge. well hopefully anyways...

[Raven8]

Agreed, Seb has been a monster this year.

But he has it relatively easy to be so. IMO other drivers are doing an as good job or evem better but they will not be recognised ( smaller teams) , because they have not the machinery to do so

IMOHamilton is doing a monster job, too. Still not feeling comfortable in the car and to have a team mate who is not only a lap dog and

 a test vehicle for new parts to help the nr 1 driver.

This is more impressive than to win the 100rd GP in a rocketship.

[dave34m]

"I don't want to be that far ahead"

I don't think you have to worry about that too much Lewis

[Shambolic]

Its true, people have a unhealthy obsession with disliking Lewis.

 

I'll have you know my obsessive dislike of him is perfectly healthy.

[FerrariV12]

"I don't want to be that far ahead"

 

That's like a footballer saying he'd rather win 1-0 than put 6 or 7 past the opposition.

 

Guess he didn't enjoy winning at Silverstone '08 as much as I thought then.

 

I know safety cars can skew things these days, but I miss margin of victory being used as a measure of accomplishment rather than a measure of "boringness" of the race.

[undersquare]

"I don't want to be that far ahead"

 

That's like a footballer saying he'd rather win 1-0 than put 6 or 7 past the opposition.

 

Guess he didn't enjoy winning at Silverstone '08 as much as I thought then.

 

I know safety cars can skew things these days, but I miss margin of victory being used as a measure of accomplishment rather than a measure of "boringness" of the race.

If you're getting into football analogies - and people generally use analogies round here to distort things   - I'd say it's more like Wayne Rooney saying he gets more satisfaction from putting 1 past City than putting 6 or 7 past Accrington Stanley.

 

A big margin of victory obviously makes the outcome of the race determined earlier, so there's less tension in the spectacle.  I don't know in which old days that wasn't the case.  But anyway they're not alternatives - it's both boring (relatively speaking) and a measure of accomplishment.

[Kobasmashi]

I don't know why some people have brought up the team orders in Malaysia. There's a difference between saying "I prefer to win after a fight, rather than to dominate", and saying "I prefer to lose than to win."   Only blinkered idiots would squish the two together in an attempt to bash Lewis.

[Raven8]

I don't know why some people have brought up the team orders in Malaysia. There's a difference between saying "I prefer to win after a fight, rather than to dominate", and saying "I prefer to lose than to win."   Only blinkered idiots would squish the two together in an attempt to bash Lewis.

Regardless what he says he will always be critzicised from the usual subjects

[joshb]

Agree with those saying its Vettel's best year. I think we've been relatively fortunate that his 2011, Alonso's 2012 and his 2013 (so far) have been 3 of the most complete seasons you'll ever see. i know cars don't break down like they used to and they may be relatively easier to drive and you don't have gravel traps now but those 2 2/3 seasons combined you could count the errors and 'sub 7/10 races' on 1 hand.

 

Surprised Hamilton came out with that line, he seems particularly keen on his legacy and winning by a minute in the wet is seen as one of the best performances ever, so you'd think he would want to destroy the field and be remembered for such a noteworthy race, rather than saying I'd be bored if I was 30 seconds ahead.

[Kobasmashi]

Hamilton's 2012 was flawless too, the standard of those 3 guys is just relentless.

[FastnLoud]

Well i get what he is saying, Seb has an advantage with the car that he just goes around and around not overtaking or fighting with anyone, it ain't boring for Seb but it is easy when the car is that much faster than anything else. I doubt Lewis would complain though if he had that kind of car so he is lying abit but i guess he loves racing not actually cruising to wins.

 

I noticed Seb wasn't even sweating when he got out of the car, shows how easy it was for him. A Past it Mark Webber who was always an average driver can get podiums and challenge for poles with that car.

[FastnLoud]

"I don't want to be that far ahead"

 

That's like a footballer saying he'd rather win 1-0 than put 6 or 7 past the opposition.

 

Guess he didn't enjoy winning at Silverstone '08 as much as I thought then.

 

I know safety cars can skew things these days, but I miss margin of victory being used as a measure of accomplishment rather than a measure of "boringness" of the race.

 

Vettel is like a football team with 10 men who do all the hard work and give him the ball on a plate from one yard out to take all the headlines.

[sennafan24]

Hamilton's 2012 was flawless too, the standard of those 3 guys is just relentless.

Agreed, in terms of consistency that year Lewis had only 2 or 3 races where I thought he could have performed better with what he had. Lewis and Alonso for me were the kings of 2012. Vettel is the standard bearer for this year though.

 

I honestly think whoever has the best car, team and other circumstances between those 3 decides the Championship, their relative performance I think is very close with the variables available to judge from.

[krea]

Sure, it doesn't make a difference if you win with a 10s or 20s lead.

 

But Hamilton shouldn't act like he never enjoyed a clear victory or that his weekend is more work than Vettel's.

[mlsnoopy]

Agreed, Seb has been a monster this year.

 

It's easy. The only car that was able to match RedBull in qualifying destroyed its tyres in the race and the cars that would be able to match you in the race started down the grid, so that once they cleared traffic he was long gone. It would have been a different story if Mercedes was able to carry its qualifying speed into the race.

[sennafan24]

Sure, it doesn't make a difference if you win with a 10s or 20s lead.

 

But Hamilton shouldn't act like he never enjoyed a clear victory or that his weekend is more work than Vettel's.

I do not think that is the point.

 

Lewis just likes having a adrenaline rush along the way to winning, with stuff like wheel to wheel combat. Its not like Lewis or any other driver would slow down or not enjoy a dominant victory, but he clearly enjoys have a good scrap along the way.

 

Remember this is the same Lewis who wishes F1 was a spec series where all circumstances and variables are equal. I would even bet Vettel is the same, the "satisfaction" comment shows he likes to do things on merit and is very ambitious.

[krea]

It's easy. The only car that was able to match RedBull in qualifying destroyed its tyres in the race and the cars that would be able to match you in the race started down the grid, so that once they cleared traffic he was long gone. It would have been a different story if Mercedes was able to carry its qualifying speed into the race.

 

You should check the first half of the season.

 

Alonso could have 4 wins in the first 5 races without his two mistakes (Malaysia and Bahrain) for example. He drove extremly well although the Red Bull wasn't the fastest car for the most races.

Edited by krea, 27 September 2013 - 17:34.

[sennafan24]

It's easy. The only car that was able to match RedBull in qualifying destroyed its tyres in the race and the cars that would be able to match you in the race started down the grid, so that once they cleared traffic he was long gone. It would have been a different story if Mercedes was able to carry its qualifying speed into the race.

You have to give him some credit though, he rarely makes mistakes and has shown great overtaking this year. He even won in Germany when the Lotus were faster, and as others have said has maximized results on weekends when the RB was off pace.

[FerrariV12]

If you're getting into football analogies - and people generally use analogies round here to distort things   - I'd say it's more like Wayne Rooney saying he gets more satisfaction from putting 1 past City than putting 6 or 7 past Accrington Stanley.

 

A big margin of victory obviously makes the outcome of the race determined earlier, so there's less tension in the spectacle.  I don't know in which old days that wasn't the case.  But anyway they're not alternatives - it's both boring (relatively speaking) and a measure of accomplishment.

 

Alonso and Hamilton are no Accrington Stanley though. I'm sure I'd rather win an F1 race by half a second than, say, an MSV F2 race by half a minute, but in an F1 race you beat the same people week in week out, and if i'm going to win i'd rather win by more than less, but yeah, I get the feeling I should probably stop with the footie analogies

 

I never found it boring when someone had a huge lead, partly because people used to actually retire from races back then, but also it was fun to see how much someone could pull away before the end. I know that's not a politically correct comment to please the Hembery generation, but it's how I feel.

[undersquare]

Alonso and Hamilton are no Accrington Stanley though. I'm sure I'd rather win an F1 race by half a second than, say, an MSV F2 race by half a minute, but in an F1 race you beat the same people week in week out, and if i'm going to win i'd rather win by more than less, but yeah, I get the feeling I should probably stop with the footie analogies

 

I never found it boring when someone had a huge lead, partly because people used to actually retire from races back then, but also it was fun to see how much someone could pull away before the end. I know that's not a politically correct comment to please the Hembery generation, but it's how I feel.

Yeah well Lewis was obviously talking about the car wasn't he, just saying he doesn't want one with a huge advantage.  Fair enough, one would think.  They get no more points,  and booing.

 

If someone has a great day and a big margin, that 's something else.

[MightyMoose]

We're getting way off the topic here, it's simple enough. If you can't resist taking it away from the subject line, then this thread will have no more purpose.

 

Discuss Hamilton's quote please.

 

Thank you

[Kyo]

I completely understand Hamilton's comment even though I believe he expressed himself pretty badly.

 

When I go karting  I love to race similar skilled opponents. If everyone else is slower it gets really frustrating and the only way to save the day is going for the fastest lap after fastest lap (which is something stupidly to do in F1). On the other hand when you get a poor kart and have no chance to win the race or beat your own record it is even more frustrating.

[Mr.Wayne]

I'm hoping Mercedes can consistently put LH on the front row next year.  LH is clearly one of the quickest drivers in F1, and SV looks like he's going to be bringing his A game for the next few years.

 

No matter who won, a season long battle between SV and LH would be epic.

To be honest, Mercedes has been consistently on the front row for all of this year. 

The fact that, with the exception of the last two races, they have had the fastest car on qualifying certainly shows they are not as far behind as their media department tries to sell.

[Winter98]

To be honest, Mercedes has been consistently on the front row for all of this year. 

The fact that, with the exception of the last two races, they have had the fastest car on qualifying certainly shows they are not as far behind as their media department tries to sell.

Yeah, that's my take and hope as well.

 

As to the quote, I think a lot of drivers would rather win the championship on the last corner of the last race with a brilliant overtake.  Barring that, I think they would just like to win the championship.

Edited by Winter98, 28 September 2013 - 14:54.