235 replies to this topic

[Winter98]

2010: he made the year hard for himself, as mentioned they dominated load of races, load, load, load of races...

2012: they dominated Bahrain, Valencia, Korea, Szuzuka, India and were always on the pace bar Monza.

 

No, I still like him and I could speak to him in summer and praised him, I am just expressing my frustration against this situation. I still think Ham and Alonso are a bit better driver, it is just painful to see that neither of them won any titles in the past years. In 2010 and 2012 Alonso did something extraordinary with that mediocre car, while Ham was very strong in 2012, only his car's reliability  and team stopped him win the title.I am just a sensitive guy who always wants justice in life.

Team Principles are almost certainly going to vote SV driver of the year, so he will have won three of the last five years.

 

IMO, the best driver won, and justice was done.  But I doubt he will match MS' record.

Edited by Winter98, 20 October 2013 - 16:51.

[Forma1]

In 2010, I agree that they had the fastest car, but Vettel also lost a lot of points due to unreliability (similar to Hamilton in 2012). That's why it was not easy for him (it was easier for Webber).

 

2012: Just picking the first race, you mention: Do you really think Bahran was RB domination? Kimi almost got him and I think RB was not the fastest car, but it was just track position which helped him at the end. A possibly still a bit rusty Kimi and a Grosjean, who was certainly not at his peak, were pressuring him, whereas Webber was half a minute behind him. I would say Lotus was the fastest car at that track. Even if you think RB was faster, it really didn't look like domination.

 

Regarding your frustration: Understandable, but I think you are biased in your analysis because of it. Many of us have some bias, but sometimes it helps to take a step back and look at an argument again.

 

Yeah, Lotus were very strong, but 1) they had more fresh tyres 2) they struggled in qualy.

 

RB's strongest points that they have no weak point. Funny, no? Ferrari SOMETIMES can be fast in races, but you can't take it for granted and in 95 % of the qualies they need to look back to Force India, Toro Rosso, McLaren, Mercedes, Lotus, Sauber (depending on which year and which period of the year we talk about). Lotus are often very strong in the races, but struggle for pace in qualy against Mercedes and RB. Mercedes were incredible in the races till Hungary, but most of the time they were caught out by tyres issues.

 

What about RB? That car has been always there, both in the races and the qualies. Even if they are not the fastest, they can easily compete for a nice podium place bar very-very-very-very few exceptions.

[mnmracer]

Even if they are not the fastest, they can easily compete for a nice podium place bar very-very-very-very few exceptions.

You might as well be talking about Ferrari. They usually win 3 places at the start (both cars), and have better race pace than most.

It's just a single-minded double standard excuse.

[sennafan24]

They usually win 3 places at the start (both cars), and have better race pace than most.

 

Ferrari do have good starts, but only Alonso takes that car to places in race trim. Massa does fade away quite a bit in race pace.

[Forma1]

You might as well be talking about Ferrari. They usually win 3 places at the start (both cars), and have better race pace than most.

It's just a single-minded double standard excuse.

You forget about Alonso's start and first lap miracles. Just look back to Singapure. THat guy is someone special. If he won't make up milion of places at the start, they would be nowhere. And race pace.... Yeah, Massa usually struggles from high deg, while Alonso not. So you can't say it is so easy to get, Alonso must have work very hard around the setup and has to be very smart during the stints when to push and when to save tyres. That is why me and more importantly load of former drivers and team principals consider him the best driver. He may be not the fastest over one lap, but when it comes to racing, he is the best with some nice margin.

[apoka]

And race pace.... Yeah, Massa Webber usually struggles from high deg, while Alonso Vettel not. So you can't say it is so easy to get, Alonso Vettel must have work very hard around the setup and has to be very smart during the stints when to push and when to save tyres. That is why me and more importantly load of former drivers and team principals consider him the best driver.

 

For once, we agree. 

[Gorma]

You forget about Alonso's start and first lap miracles. Just look back to Singapure. THat guy is someone special. If he won't make up milion of places at the start, they would be nowhere. And race pace.... Yeah, Massa usually struggles from high deg, while Alonso not. So you can't say it is so easy to get, Alonso must have work very hard around the setup and has to be very smart during the stints when to push and when to save tyres. That is why me and more importantly load of former drivers and team principals consider him the best driver. He may be not the fastest over one lap, but when it comes to racing, he is the best with some nice margin.

Enough with this same old crap. If the Ferrari car is good at something it is the starts, race pace and tyre deg. I'd like to see Kimi and Lewis at Ferrari. The guy who is best at managing tyres and the best qualifier. At least then we could get over this "it's all Alonso non sense" which isn't even remotely related to the topic of this thread.

Edited by Gorma, 20 October 2013 - 18:48.

[mnmracer]

 

You forget about Alonso's start and first lap miracles. Just look back to Singapure. THat guy is someone special. If he won't make up milion of places at the start, they would be nowhere. And race pace.... Yeah, Massa usually struggles from high deg, while Alonso not. So you can't say it is so easy to get, Alonso must have work very hard around the setup and has to be very smart during the stints when to push and when to save tyres.

Switch the names Alonso with Vettel and Massa with Webber, and race with qualifying, and you might as well be talking about Red Bull.

Conclusion: drivers do make a difference.

 

That is why load of former drivers and team principals consider him...

If you value the opinions of former drivers and team principals, you might want to open your ears to what they have to say about more drivers than just Fernando ;-) .

[Forma1]

 

 

Switch the names Alonso with Vettel and Massa with Webber, and race with qualifying, and you might as well be talking about Red Bull.

Conclusion: drivers do make a difference.

 

If you value the opinions of former drivers and team principals, you might want to open your ears to what they have to say about more drivers than just Fernando ;-) .

 

Webber's only problem that he always gets himself into trouble. Once in free air he can unload the tremendous speed from the RB.
 Vettel is much better him though, he's consistent. My problem is still we can't even mention RB with other cars on the same day cos they are just different league. RB do a fantastic job to provide Seb the overall best car while Seb is doing his own job.

[garagetinkerer]

Webber's only problem that he always gets himself into trouble. Once in free air he can unload the tremendous speed from the RB.
 Vettel is much better him though, he's consistent. My problem is still we can't even mention RB with other cars on the same day cos they are just different league. RB do a fantastic job to provide Seb the overall best car while Seb is doing his own job.

This is what it boils down to... a good car and a good driver coming together to do something great.

 

Consider this:

There are only 3 drivers with 4 or more titles (and Vettel will join their leagues soon enough)

There are only 3 drivers who have won 3 titles or more in a row (it is funny that even for 4 it will be 3 drivers only when Vettel wins this year)

 

The fact that not many drivers have achieved this exemplifies how hard this is to do for both team and its drivers. This is why some people are responding the way they're to your older posts... Vettel is doing what he can... over a year he's been beating Webber quite spectacularly... 130+ points in 2011, 102 points in 2012, and again it looks like it will be a 100+ points gap this year. Then to top it off, Webber isn't a bad driver at all. Suddenly all the hogwash about Alonso/ Hamilton/ Raikkonen conquering worlds in a RBR is seen in a different perspective, especially by those who know a bit about the sport, and can keep their bias in check. There's no guarantee that Alonso/ Hamilton/ Raikkonen would do as good a job, as a car may not suit the driver... it works the other way around too. Anyhoo, we're wasting daylight/ lamp fuel on this unnecessarily. What we can say for sure is, Vettel did great to achieve what he did! I'd say the same about anyone else if it were the case (although, begrudgingly if i didn't like the driver, or thought that he/ she were a prick )

[Forma1]

This is what it boils down to... a good car and a good driver coming together to do something great.

 

Consider this:

There are only 3 drivers with 4 or more titles (and Vettel will join their leagues soon enough)

There are only 3 drivers who have won 3 titles or more in a row (it is funny that even for 4 it will be 3 drivers only when Vettel wins this year)

 

The fact that not many drivers have achieved this exemplifies how hard this is to do for both team and its drivers. This is why some people are responding the way they're to your older posts... Vettel is doing what he can... over a year he's been beating Webber quite spectacularly... 130+ points in 2011, 102 points in 2012, and again it looks like it will be a 100+ points gap this year. Then to top it off, Webber isn't a bad driver at all. Suddenly all the hogwash about Alonso/ Hamilton/ Raikkonen conquering worlds in a RBR is seen in a different perspective, especially by those who know a bit about the sport, and can keep their bias in check. There's no guarantee that Alonso/ Hamilton/ Raikkonen would do as good a job, as a car may not suit the driver... it works the other way around too. Anyhoo, we're wasting daylight/ lamp fuel on this unnecessarily. What we can say for sure is, Vettel did great to achieve what he did! I'd say the same about anyone else if it were the case (although, begrudgingly if i didn't like the driver, or thought that he/ she were a prick )

 

Yeah, it just just waste of time. We could also say di Resta beat Seb as team-mate, but you can say Seb has evolved from that point enormly.

 

Is Schumacher the best of the history? He won 5 titles in a row, he had to fight for the 2001 and 2003 title pretty hard, the others were much easier to get under the belt. THose are pretty hard question.

 

Is there anyone on the earth who hasn't been given the chance to show their talent? Yeah, certainly. For example Luca Filippi has been one of my favourite, he clearly would have deserved a place in F, but never get it. He was shining in Gp2 and now in Indy.

 

Dunno exactly why I put down those sentences. Maybe I just wanted to highlight it's very hard to compare drivers in different cars and in different period of their own carrier.

 

As for the future: I foresaid Vettel would become  multiple champion, that turned out to be true. I said da Costa would be a great driver in F1, now he struggles a bit in World Series, but there was something fishy with his car in the second half of the championship, so let's see if he gets the TR seat. For the distant future there are great talents on the horizont, for example Marvin Kirchhöfer, he comes from my home city, Leipzig, I promise ya he is something to pay attention to.

[sennafan24]

Consider this:

There are only 3 drivers with 4 or more titles (and Vettel will join their leagues soon enough)

There are only 3 drivers who have won 3 titles or more in a row (it is funny that even for 4 it will be 3 drivers only when Vettel wins this year)

 

 

I know we disagree on the value of the raw quantity of stats as the ultimate sign of a great driver, but for me personally its not the titles he has won, or the races he has won that factor in to how I rate Seb, its just observation of what I watch on a Saturday or Sunday if I am honest.

 

His success this year in the context that he has done it has converted me into a believer, that he is at least in the same tier as Lewis/Alonso, I still do not know who is the best out the three, but I am more open to the Vettel argument than I was a year back.

 

If we take away the car performance and the Webber comparison, I would like to point anyone to the pole lap he drove at Korea a few weeks back. Its a marvelous lap, and you can see that even if the car is top-notch that Seb has a lot of skill, the lap is so tidy and smooth, and you can tell Seb has great timing and makes life very easy for himself.

 

So to take this back on topic, its inconclusive as of now whether Seb can beat Schumi's record it partially depends on how the regulations go, if Seb gets the best car or at least something close to it, he does have the talent to get there. I personally am more interested to see how far his driving skills go, and if I can work out in my own head who I think is the best of this era.

[Forma1]

 

If we take away the car performance and the Webber comparison, I would like to point anyone to the pole lap he drove at Korea a few weeks back. Its a marvelous lap, and you can see that even if the car is top-notch that Seb has a lot of skill, the lap is so tidy and smooth, and you can tell Seb has great timing and makes life very easy for himself.

 

Lewis commented his onboards and said Vettel doesn't even need to drive on the limit, so it can easily look smooth. He said it after Singapure, but that kind of drivability could be observed in Korea as well or before Singapure.

 

Just to emphasize, it is not my, but Lewis' opinion.

[sennafan24]

Lewis commented his onboards and said Vettel doesn't even need to drive on the limit, so it can easily look smooth. He said it after Singapure, but that kind of drivability could be observed in Korea as well or before Singapure.

 

Just to emphasize, it is not my, but Lewis' opinion.

Yeah, bit of a difference between Singapore and Korea.

 

I tend to ignore the Singapore win, as it is sort of a grey area in terms of discussion.

[garagetinkerer]

Yeah, it just just waste of time. We could also say di Resta beat Seb as team-mate, but you can say Seb has evolved from that point enormly.

 

Is Schumacher the best of the history? He won 5 titles in a row, he had to fight for the 2001 and 2003 title pretty hard, the others were much easier to get under the belt. THose are pretty hard question.

 

Is there anyone on the earth who hasn't been given the chance to show their talent? Yeah, certainly. For example Luca Filippi has been one of my favourite, he clearly would have deserved a place in F, but never get it. He was shining in Gp2 and now in Indy.

 

Dunno exactly why I put down those sentences. Maybe I just wanted to highlight it's very hard to compare drivers in different cars and in different period of their own carrier.

 

As for the future: I foresaid Vettel would become  multiple champion, that turned out to be true. I said da Costa would be a great driver in F1, now he struggles a bit in World Series, but there was something fishy with his car in the second half of the championship, so let's see if he gets the TR seat. For the distant future there are great talents on the horizont, for example Marvin Kirchhöfer, he comes from my home city, Leipzig, I promise ya he is something to pay attention to.

I could tell you why you made this remark, but you already know i guess... same as others perhaps? may be not...

 

Kimi Raikkonen was not all that much better than Heidfeld in Sauber, but we both know who went on to be the WDC. Di Resta struggled to look any better than Sutil at the start of this year, Sutil who came after a break (something which is very hard to do these days due to lack of testing...). I hope you're not going to say that Sutil could beat Vettel in the same car This is F1... results in lower formula don't always translate into results in F1... but i guess you already knew that.

 

Good to see that you'll have something to cheer for...

[garagetinkerer]

Lewis commented his onboards and said Vettel doesn't even need to drive on the limit, so it can easily look smooth. He said it after Singapure, but that kind of drivability could be observed in Korea as well or before Singapure.

 

Just to emphasize, it is not my, but Lewis' opinion.

Did you see the qualifying lap at Japan.. one car with KERS and another without. Did you notice the difference...? By the by, it was Vettel who didn't have KERS working...

 

His opinion would be worth something if he was working for RBR... but when Mercedes' engineers say that Rosberg was losing well over a second, then his opinion seems as worthless as by some of the posters in internet forums. As this "opinion" had little information to back such a claim, especially in light of what Mercedes' own engineers were saying. Do correct me if i'm wrong...

[Forma1]

Did you see the qualifying lap at Japan.. one car with KERS and another without. Did you notice the difference...? By the by, it was Vettel who didn't have KERS working...

 

His opinion would be worth something if he was working for RBR... but when Mercedes' engineers say that Rosberg was losing well over a second, then his opinion seems as worthless as by some of the posters in internet forums. As this "opinion" had little information to back such a claim, especially in light of what Mercedes' own engineers were saying. Do correct me if i'm wrong...

Japan? That's just another example: if not Vettel grabs the pole, then it was the other Red Bull-guy. It just shows again and again how fraking strong that machinery is.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't dare to dismiss a champion's words. But you should be an expert to realise how hard Alonso, Lewis, Rosberg, etc had to work woth the streering wheel, especially under acceleration into slow, cambered corner, while Vettel was like driving in the simulator. THat is just ridiculous! That RB has tremendous downforce and LITERALLY NO WHEEL-SPIN.

[krea]

Japan? That's just another example: if not Vettel grabs the pole, then it was the other Red Bull-guy. It just shows again and again how fraking strong that machinery is.

 

 

Interesting, it was Webber's first pole since Korea last year (he had also only two poles last year). 

 

And Red Bull had 8 poles this year (7 vs. 1 for Vettel) while McLaren had also 8 poles (5 vs. 3 for Hamilton).

 

Your posts are worthless because biasend. You look at Vettel's result with the premise that's all about the car while you don't do the same with other drivers.

Edited by krea, 21 October 2013 - 08:31.

[mnmracer]

LITERALLY NO WHEEL-SPIN.

[sennafan24]

I can see this qualifying debate from both sides.

 

On one hand, Webber is shopworn, and is on the wrong side of 35, so Lewis and Nico will find it harder to get on pole due to facing each other in the same machinery.

 

On the other hand, Seb is a really good qualifier by any standard, for reasons I mentioned above. He did pretty good against Webber, when Webber was in his prime. He brings the most out of the machinery given to him even if it is the best machinery on the grid.

[Forma1]

 

That is what Lewis, Gian. Minardi, etc told about.

Absolutely no wheelspin, it is reminiscent of the days of traction control.

 

 

THis is Kimi. Unfortunately I couldn't find an onboard of Kimi, Alo, Lewis, etc from qualy, but the car's behaviour was pretty similiar even on low fuel, free air and fresh rubber, I can still remember cos I watched it back then million of times. Later on I will try to fine one footage. So back to this: Kimi is fighting with the car, it has understeer, oversteer at different places, it has wheel-spin while Seb just needs to lay back into the seat and enjoy it. Man, try to understand, I just wanne highlight the differences between the RB and other car. That is just tremendous, that's why it is so hard for me and I guess for millions of people to figure out how good Seb is against Alo or Ham.

[Gorma]

THis is Kimi. Unfortunately I couldn't find an onboard of Kimi, Alo, Lewis, etc from qualy, but the car's behaviour was pretty similiar even on low fuel, free air and fresh rubber, I can still remember cos I watched it back then million of times. Later on I will try to fine one footage. So back to this: Kimi is fighting with the car, it has understeer, oversteer at different places, it has wheel-spin while Seb just needs to lay back into the seat and enjoy it. Man, try to understand, I just wanne highlight the differences between the RB and other car. That is just tremendous, that's why it is so hard for me and I guess for millions of people to figure out how good Seb is against Alo or Ham.

So you picked the worst possible example against Seb. Kimi had a broken back, no running in the practice, setup was all wrong, not to mention that Kimi has been struggling with qualifying and the new tyres. The only thing missing was that he wasn't stabbed before the qualy.

[mnmracer]

I also love how he can see that there is no wheelspin by looking at the camera aimed at an angle at the front wheels.

[apoka]

So you picked the worst possible example against Seb. Kimi had a broken back, no running in the practice, setup was all wrong, not to mention that Kimi has been struggling with qualifying and the new tyres. The only thing missing was that he wasn't stabbed before the qualy.

 

Yes - Grosjean was 1.5 seconds faster and might be a better benchmark. 

 

I always find it difficult to rate laps based on how they look. There are some obvious mistakes, but apart from that you can always argue both ways for the front running cars: If the car looks smooth, then you can argue that it was possibly easy to drive. If it looks ragged, you can argue that the driving and setup aren't perfect, but the car is still good enough to compensate for this.

[garagetinkerer]

Japan? That's just another example: if not Vettel grabs the pole, then it was the other Red Bull-guy. It just shows again and again how fraking strong that machinery is.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't dare to dismiss a champion's words. But you should be an expert to realise how hard Alonso, Lewis, Rosberg, etc had to work woth the streering wheel, especially under acceleration into slow, cambered corner, while Vettel was like driving in the simulator. THat is just ridiculous! That RB has tremendous downforce and LITERALLY NO WHEEL-SPIN.

Kind sir.. i need some pain relief for my head after reading the second part of your post. So you think Hamilton knows better than Mercedes engineers? Let me ask you this, did you even think before posting that? By the by, i mean no disrespect here... The fact that you were willing to throw what Mercedes engineer said about Rosberg losing 1+ second a lap straight to bin is puzzling a bit

[Forma1]

As I menitoned in my previous post, the Kimi onborad was not a good benchmark, but I didn't manage to find a better one, but here you are:

 

 

It yields ya a more accurate picture. You have to work pretty hard with the Mercedes which was a very good qualy car there and with the Ferrari.... it's better to stay silent. I keep on saying Vettel's footage reminds me of simulator game. I had the chance to try Sauber's public simulator recently (they didn't have any real sim in the factory), Vettel's car's behaviour is pretty much the same I experienced. I WANNA EMPHASIZE he is a master, but there is clearly a huge advantage for the RB.

 

Another question you posted to me: nobody can tell whether there is wheelspin or not just by listening to the engine sound, BUT you can see it with the naked eye whether a driver has to fight like hell under heavy acceleration out of slow turns or not. Vettel doesn't need to implement any kinda correction, while the others have to. That is what Hamilton referred to as well.

[mnmracer]

That video shows one slow corner (out of 23) where Lewis had to correct (under the grand stands), but even that was not 'fighting like hell' and judging at the 0.322 second gap between Lewis and Nico, that might as well be down to Lewis making a mistake.

[1Devil1]

As I menitoned in my previous post, the Kimi onborad was not a good benchmark, but I didn't manage to find a better one, but here you are:

 

 

It yields ya a more accurate picture. You have to work pretty hard with the Mercedes which was a very good qualy car there and with the Ferrari.... it's better to stay silent. I keep on saying Vettel's footage reminds me of simulator game. I had the chance to try Sauber's public simulator recently (they didn't have any real sim in the factory), Vettel's car's behaviour is pretty much the same I experienced. I WANNA EMPHASIZE he is a master, but there is clearly a huge advantage for the RB.

 

Another question you posted to me: nobody can tell whether there is wheelspin or not just by listening to the engine sound, BUT you can see it with the naked eye whether a driver has to fight like hell under heavy acceleration out of slow turns or not. Vettel doesn't need to implement any kinda correction, while the others have to. That is what Hamilton referred to as well.

 

Can you please stop use CAPITAL LETTERS, it annyoing like hell, Hamilton is the master of downplaying Vettel's qualifying laps he did it already last year when he was saying that Vettel could miss two or three apexes and would be on pole anyway. Funny that Hamilton - in the super- qualifying car this year - got poles as well and missed apexes. I wouldn't give anything on the opinion from Hamilton on Vettel's one lap performance, he seems to be biased, who wouldn't if you were an opponent - I would definitely - especially if I am regarded as best one lap man by my fans. 

[sennafan24]

That video shows one slow corner (out of 23) where Lewis had to correct (under the grand stands), but even that was not 'fighting like hell' and judging at the 0.322 second gap between Lewis and Nico, that might as well be down to Lewis making a mistake.

I am not sure what happened to Lewis that weekend, he looked great in practice then crap in qualifying. Nico was the opposite, credit to him for performing when it mattered. I am going to guess Lewis just gambled on the wrong set up, but there were reports on Twitter that the Merc did not look that good in practice if you watched the laps, and Lewis was fighting the car to top the timesheets. That said, I did read somewhere that Nico's car suffered in race trim and might have been nearer to Seb's RB without that problem. Lewis and Webber from what I recall where in dirty air, so its hard to say if they had much pace in their pockets.

 

To be honest, Singapore is the exception rather than the rule. I do not think think for a moment that Seb did not have a significant advantage that weekend in terms of the car he had. Now I am not saying RB cheated, that makes no sense given the circumstances, but Seb's RB was dialed in. You could argue he got himself into the position to use his car to the full advanatge thought if we are being fair.

 

If you look at qualifying in Korea or Monza, Seb does not enjoy such a advantage, yet gets the job done. To pick out Singapore as a example is quite unfair to Seb's driving merit, he does not enjoy a advantage that vast every weekend.

[sennafan24]

I wouldn't give anything on the opinion from Hamilton on Vettel's one lap performance, he seems to be biased, who wouldn't if you were an opponent - I would definitely - especially if I am regarded as best one lap man by my fans. 

Maybe this is just me, but was Lewis not dicking around a bit with the TC comment. Him and Seb have a bit of banter going with one another, I think that was a extension of it.

 

I do not think Lewis is biased either, he gives credit where he sees fit. Remember this is the guy he admitted he "drive like an idiot" at Monza, where he could have blamed Sutil.

[V3TT3L]

http://www.jamesalle...mpse-into-2014/

 

Listen to the Podcast ~39:25

[1Devil1]

Maybe this is just me, but was Lewis not dicking around a bit with the TC comment. Him and Seb have a bit of banter going with one another, I think that was a extension of it.

 

I do not think Lewis is biased either, he gives credit where he sees fit. Remember this is the guy he admitted he "drive like an idiot" at Monza, where he could have blamed Sutil.

 

Why shouldn't Hamilton be biased, ask this question, and I am not blaming him for that - he is an opponent. But if I would like to have serious opinion about Seb's Qualifying I wouldn't ask another driver, who's regarded as best in this discipline nor would I ask Horner or Marko. Recently Hamilton started to praise Vettel's performances before that he was one of the members of "damn Vettel is driving a rocketship, he can miss three apexes" bandwagon. Hamilton starts to be more balanced in his views, would I got to read lately - I like that 

[sennafan24]

Why shouldn't Hamilton be biased, ask this question, and I am not blaming him for that - he is an opponent. But if I would like to have serious opinion about Seb's Qualifying I wouldn't ask another driver, who's regarded as best in this discipline nor would I ask Horner or Marko. Recently Hamilton started to praise Vettel's performances before that he was one of the members of "damn Vettel is driving a rocketship, he can miss three apexes" bandwagon. Hamilton starts to be more balanced in his views, would I got to read lately - I like that 

Yeah he will have a bit of bias, but I honestly think he just says what is on his mind.

 

Lewis does not go too far with things if you read what says fully, he still thinks that RB is the best all round car, but says Seb is doing a cracking job getting the most out of it. That is pretty much my opinion in a nutshell.

 

I believe Seb has improved as a driver this year over last, and also think that this year the perception of his merits has gone up in the process. That is not to say I am talking in absolutes, the theory of the car being the sole star is not a 100% true statement before 2013.

Edited by sennafan24, 26 October 2013 - 21:53.

[sopa]

There are a lot of talks about Vettel "needing to prove himself" in another team. Today I was thinking about it and concluded that the argument "he will have to prove himself in Team B to see if he is a match to Alo/Ham/Rai"  is inherently flawed.

 

Why is that? We have got directly two good examples - Alonso and Raikkonen, from 2007. And in Raikkonen's case the whole Ferrari stint.

 

Raikkonen went to Ferrari with a reputation as the fastest driver in F1 in the eyes of many. He underperformed in Ferrari, everyone acknowledges it.

So if Vettel changes teams and genuinely happens to underperform in Ferrari, he will have in no way shown he is worse than Raikkonen - he will have proved about to be a match. Great in one team, not so great in other.

 

Alonso in 2007 switched teams with some fans believing he was so fast only on Michelin tyres in a car that demanded specific aggressive driving style (which Fisichella could not master). Alonso underperformed by his standards and was matched by a rookie.

Now - everyone wants to see Vettel in another team, where the team is not tailored around his needs and he faces a top-notch team-mate. If Vettel doesn't quite meet expectations in such scenario, it doesn't mean he is inferior to Alonso like many claim - in fact once again he will have proved to be about a match based on historic evidence and comparison.

 

So if Vettel goes to Ferrari and isn't quite as sublime as now, he will STILL not look worse than those guys, specifically Raikkonen.

Based on their first stints in their careers, Vettel has been at least as good as Raikkonen in McLaren, Alonso in Renault, Hamilton in McLaren, if not even better. The latter three have switched teams. Let's see, when will Vettel get there. But the accomplishments of those three that they did in their first "big teams", remain in high estimation till this day. In fact, Raikkonen's reputation as a king of speed largely derives from his McLaren stint. Vettel has already made a strong mark EVEN if he underperforms in another team.

Edited by sopa, 26 October 2013 - 18:44.

[Gorma]

I think that is a great post to close the thread!

[bourbon]

Not to worry, someone opened the exact same thread, so you get to try again.