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Sebastian Vettel: More Wins than any Driver on the Grid


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Poll: Will Sebastian reach or surpass Michael's 91 Wins? (211 member(s) have cast votes)

Will Sebastian reach or surpass Michael's 91 Wins?

  1. Yes (44 votes [20.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.85%

  2. No (92 votes [43.60%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.60%

  3. How do I know? (75 votes [35.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.55%

Vote

#51 bourbon

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 19:04

Right and 29% continued winning rate is not easy what with regulation changes and moving teams, etc.  So even with more races on the schedule, it would be very difficult for any driver to attain that many wins.



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#52 Afterburner

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 19:19

Probably not from some, as a fan who does not live and breath on stats and is more interested in statistical analysis, relative performance and what you do with what you got, Vettel has done enough for myself to consider him a great driver. The raw stats are impressive at face value, but they are not the reasons I rate Vettel so highly, Schumi neither.

Some no matter what will look at the most contradictory evidence to their subjective interpretations and always find holes and flaws in what Vettel does. The same happened with Schumacher, to myself there is no going back from Germany 2013 with Seb, that race was what confirmed to me I was watching a great driver apply his trade, his consistency in 2013 is another tribute that confirms his talents further. But some will just dismiss his efforts as "car enhanced" no matter the circumstance or situation.

Its absolute, one-sided and blinkered thinking, that is commonplace mainly towards Vettel and Hamilton sadly. Some peoples brains and attitudes are not developed to appreciate both sides of the argument and see strengths and weaknesses, which is why we get so much absolute opinions about.

Well said. :up:

#53 bourbon

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 03:14

So far, 41 shrugging their shoulders; 46 nodding; and 22 shaking their heads up and down.

 

I didn't think there would even be that many yes votes, but I dig the optimism.



#54 Tsarwash

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:39

"Winningest" is not a word.

Yes it is. just like bestest is a word. It might not be an OED word, but it is a word. The titty-ninth of febuary is a date, just not a very useful one. 



#55 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:52

Schumacher's strike rate is still higher than Vettel's despite those 3 years in the wilderness at 29.6% counting 307 race starts.

 

When he retired first time around it was closer to 35%,

 

Mighty impressive considering that he only had the outright best car for a fraction of his nigh on 20 year career.

 

Sometimes it really is the driver and not just the car. Take note, Vettel critics ;)



#56 sopa

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:10

Till now I was thinking it would be almost impossible for Vettel to catch Schumacher's 91 win record, but now I am ready to reconsider the statement. Of course it means Vettel should stay in a top team for the next 10 years and not get 2013 McLarens.

 

But however I did some calculation.

M.Schumacher  S.Vettel
91   0   0    07    0   0
92   1   1    08    1   1
93   1   2    09    4   5
94   8  10    10    5  10
95   9  19    11   11  21
96   3  22    12    5  26
97   5  27    13    8* 34* (still ongoing)
98   6  33
99   2  35
00   9  44
01   9  53
02  11  64
03   6  70
04  13  83
05   1  84
06   7  91

If Vettel drives until the age of 36, he will reach the 2006 season mark in the Schumacher comparison table. Both started with a part-season in F1 and from there onwards we can actually have a comparison and compare it in future years too.

 

At the moment Vettel has an advantage. Actually Vettel will have an advantage for some years to come, because in 1999 Schumacher was injured and got only 2 wins. So the key years will really be 2016-2020, which compare to 2000-2004 in Schumi's win ratio. Probably 2016 to 2020 also include the period in which Vettel is likely to change the team and how does this affect his wins collecting. Can Vettel resist the challenge?



#57 mlsnoopy

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:15

It depends on the car.



#58 sopa

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:20

It depends on the car.

 

We could get another historical parallel. During Schumi's prime it was said that he had no proper rivals, which enabled him to dominate. Especially when Hakkinen declined/retired and new young guns were still too green.

 

Considering the paydriver issue in modern F1, we also may get to the point, where Vettel is not considered to have proper rivals, enabling him to rack up statistics.



#59 OldSoldier2

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 13:13

We could get another historical parallel. During Schumi's prime it was said that he had no proper rivals, which enabled him to dominate. Especially when Hakkinen declined/retired and new young guns were still too green.

 

Considering the paydriver issue in modern F1, we also may get to the point, where Vettel is not considered to have proper rivals, enabling him to rack up statistics.

I respect your comments sopa but disagree. Vettel does have proper rivals in Hamilton, Alonso, and Kimi. They are each flawed but are, I believe, considered better competition than what Schumi faced. The 2014 Ferrari pair are good for at least 4 more years, and Lewis for 3 or 4 after that. (Yes I am using the 35-37 age bracket as a retirement point.)

 

If the pay driver trend continues Vettel won't face a field of them until late in his career. And there is always the Hulk who I hope stays around for a while and some younger drivers like Bianchi who have major team support.



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#60 Rinehart

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 13:58

I don't think he will. I expect the trend to continue that teams remain in cycles of domination for long periods (Ferrari, then RBR), so as soon as RBR or whatever team he is driving for is not dominating, his strike rate will plummet and the required rate will shoot up. I'm just guessing he's going to hit the end of his streak at some point way before 91 wins. This might happen next year with the new regs, or when he eventually changes team.


Edited by Rinehart, 11 October 2013 - 13:59.


#61 Kyo

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 14:30

I don't think he will. I expect the trend to continue that teams remain in cycles of domination for long periods (Ferrari, then RBR), so as soon as RBR or whatever team he is driving for is not dominating, his strike rate will plummet and the required rate will shoot up. I'm just guessing he's going to hit the end of his streak at some point way before 91 wins. This might happen next year with the new regs, or when he eventually changes team.

Lets say for whatever reason RBR builds a dog of a car and has no perspective to improve after this year. Vettel can just jump to the next best car. He has open doors in every single team. The question is, will he be willing to face another WDC, and if he is how this will reflect in his win ratio. Certainly he is in a much better position than any other driver to keep winning.



#62 Forma1

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 14:40

Just a quick note to Seb. He was praised by Rocky for being patient. Was it for being patient behind a slower car? If yes, then it is the joke of the year. Are we in the kindergarten? Where are heroes like Schumi, Alonso-Kimi (for example their great battle back in 2005), just to mention a few recent great drivers who was praised for their superb perofrmances.. Will Seb be praised for putting his shoes on in the right way?

 

If not, than note could be neglected.



#63 mnmracer

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 14:45

So why even make the note without actually knowing what's going on?



#64 sennafan24

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 14:46

Just a quick note to Seb. He was praised by Rocky for being patient. Was it for being patient behind a slower car? If yes, then it is the joke of the year. Are we in the kindergarten? Where are heroes like Schumi, Alonso-Kimi (for example their great battle back in 2005), just to mention a few recent great drivers who was praised for their superb perofrmances.. Will Seb be praised for putting his shoes on in the right way?

 

If not, than note could be neglected.

Its patience in the sense of knowing when to push and knowing when to cool off I believe.

 

There were times at say Singapore when Seb was patient and did not race as fast as he could have done, in order to save tyres in case of a safety car which would wipe out his lead over other drivers. Seb takes instruction well, if Rocky asks him to cool of for a while he will be patient and do so.


Edited by sennafan24, 11 October 2013 - 14:46.


#65 OldSoldier2

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 14:49

Just a quick note to Seb. He was praised by Rocky for being patient. Was it for being patient behind a slower car? If yes, then it is the joke of the year. Are we in the kindergarten? Where are heroes like Schumi, Alonso-Kimi (for example their great battle back in 2005), just to mention a few recent great drivers who was praised for their superb perofrmances.. Will Seb be praised for putting his shoes on in the right way?

 

If not, than note could be neglected.

You are just being mean. A driver in this era of Perelli needs to be patient with the tires. I will refrain from discussing who here is in kindergarten.
 



#66 Forma1

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 14:53

Its patience in the sense of knowing when to push and knowing when to cool off I believe.

 

There were times at say Singapore when Seb was patient and did not race as fast as he could have done, in order to save tyres in case of a safety car which would wipe out his lead over other drivers. Seb takes instruction well, if Rocky asks him to cool of for a while he will be patient and do so.

Yeah, tht was my second guess. He was struggling with tyre wear in his first stint, but there was heavy taffic around him towards the end, that's why I guessed.



#67 sopa

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 15:35

I respect your comments sopa but disagree. Vettel does have proper rivals in Hamilton, Alonso, and Kimi. They are each flawed but are, I believe, considered better competition than what Schumi faced. The 2014 Ferrari pair are good for at least 4 more years, and Lewis for 3 or 4 after that. (Yes I am using the 35-37 age bracket as a retirement point.)

 

If the pay driver trend continues Vettel won't face a field of them until late in his career. And there is always the Hulk who I hope stays around for a while and some younger drivers like Bianchi who have major team support.

 

I was talking more about in 5 years' perspective. Even if Alonso or Raikkonen hang around in 2018, they are likely not in their prime form any more. Hamilton should still be very good, but the question is - will there be more contenders in addition to a Vettel-Hamilton rivalry?

 

Of course difficult to say at the moment. In 2000 we had Schumacher-Hakkinen, but in 5 years time Raikkonen and Alonso were at the top, who weren't even in F1 in 2000. So it is certainly possible that even despite the influx of lots of paydrivers we might still get some elite drivers into F1 during the next few years. Let's find out. All I am saying the future looks good for Vettel from drivers competition point of view. Now it is just the matter, which cars will he get.



#68 bourbon

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 15:41

I think the competition will remain in full force when some of the drivers decide to retire.  You have Hamilton, Vettel, Perez, Hulkenberg, and possibly Bianchi, plus up and coming promising youngsters on the GP2/F3 horizon.  Although I haven't been following the lower formula as closely these days, there is talent in the pool.  Still, Vettel will forge his own career - it is very unimportant for him to reach or beat Michael's achievements.  He just has to do what he can.  That said, it is a possibility, although I don't think Seb has made it a priority at present.



#69 MikeV1987

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 17:31

It depends what kind of car Ferrari gives him in the future.   ;)



#70 Boxerevo

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 17:34

He is already in a blessed for position for 5 years.

 

More 10 of this ? Good for him but i will not watch the races when it happens...maybe download some and see... Schumacher\Ferrari was already enough for me.

 

He deserves everything but 15 years of ultra competitive cars is... no words.


Edited by Boxerevo, 11 October 2013 - 17:35.


#71 Zeroninety

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 17:55

Yes it is. just like bestest is a word. It might not be an OED word, but it is a word.  

 

And it's a useful word: it's more specific than "most successful," making it clear that the subject is the best at winning. One could correctly say that Grosjean is the most successful driver in F1...at looking like a human rooster. 



#72 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 00:56

http://www.theguardi...singapore-gp-f1

http://www.telegraph...-2013-live.html

http://www.f1fanatic...ace-wins-total/

 

 

Sebastian has surpassed Alonso to become the winningest driver on the current grid, with 33 f1 race wins.  This is a remarkable achievement for a 26 year old.  He has done it with RB cars, his first win in the STRF in 2008 and is 32nd win in the RB9 at Singapore.   The car has been a top contender and often record fast and combined with Sebastian's talent has forged a champion and a championship team. 

 

Michael and Sebastian achieved the same number of wins (32) within the same number of races (113) according to NBC Sports - not terribly reliable, but I figure it is close.  The question is:  Will Seb catch Michael?  That is a very tall order.  What do you think?  Vote!

 

CURRENT GRID - Number of Wins:

VETTEL - 33
ALONSO - 32
HAMILTON - 22
RAIKKONEN - 20
BUTTON - 15
MASSA - 11
WEBBER - 9
ROSBERG - 3
MALDONADO - 1

ALL TIME - Number of Wins:

Schumi - 91
Prost - 51
Senna - 41
Vettel - 33

Alonso 32

 

 

Interesting - motorsportmagazine.com is probing exactly who the fans think is the best of the five leading the all time number of wins:

 

 

Poll

Thank you for voting!
Ayrton Senna  46.63%  (180 votes) 
 
 
Alain Prost  26.94%  (104 votes) 
 
 
Michael Schumacher  11.92%  (46 votes) 
 
 
Fernando Alonso  11.66%  (45 votes) 
 
 
Sebastian Vettel  2.85%  (11 votes) 
 
 
 

 

is the current standings. 

 

Quite interesting, besides Senna leading, which is a given, that Alonso is very close to Michael Schumacher in the fans' perception. And, Seb has not really arrived yet.

Of course, you could say this is motorsport.com, which is read by seasoned motorsport lovers and not youngsters.

 

You can find the poll on http://www.motorsportmagazine.com



#73 zippythecat

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:13

Till now I was thinking it would be almost impossible for Vettel to catch Schumacher's 91 win record, but now I am ready to reconsider the statement. Of course it means Vettel should stay in a top team for the next 10 years and not get 2013 McLarens.

 

But however I did some calculation.

M.Schumacher  S.Vettel
91   0   0    07    0   0
92   1   1    08    1   1
93   1   2    09    4   5
94   8  10    10    5  10
95   9  19    11   11  21
96   3  22    12    5  26
97   5  27    13    8* 34* (still ongoing)
98   6  33
99   2  35
00   9  44
01   9  53
02  11  64
03   6  70
04  13  83
05   1  84
06   7  91

If Vettel drives until the age of 36, he will reach the 2006 season mark in the Schumacher comparison table. Both started with a part-season in F1 and from there onwards we can actually have a comparison and compare it in future years too.

 

At the moment Vettel has an advantage. Actually Vettel will have an advantage for some years to come, because in 1999 Schumacher was injured and got only 2 wins. So the key years will really be 2016-2020, which compare to 2000-2004 in Schumi's win ratio. Probably 2016 to 2020 also include the period in which Vettel is likely to change the team and how does this affect his wins collecting. Can Vettel resist the challenge?

 

Bit too early to say he'll get 92, I think. Golf fans used to assume Tiger Woods would break Nicklaus' record of major championships, before Woods started having injury and domestic problems. There's still a lot that can happen in Seb's life and career to alter the trajectory. But he clearly has a chance, a good one too given that he's just entering what should be his peak years athletically.



#74 1Devil1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:41

Interesting - motorsportmagazine.com is probing exactly who the fans think is the best of the five leading the all time number of wins:

 

 

Poll

Thank you for voting!
Ayrton Senna  46.63%  (180 votes) 
 
Alain Prost  26.94%  (104 votes) 
 
Michael Schumacher  11.92%  (46 votes) 
 
Fernando Alonso  11.66%  (45 votes) 
 
Sebastian Vettel  2.85%  (11 votes) 
 
 

 

is the current standings. 

 

Quite interesting, besides Senna leading, which is a given, that Alonso is very close to Michael Schumacher in the fans' perception. And, Seb has not really arrived yet.

Of course, you could say this is motorsport.com, which is read by seasoned motorsport lovers and not youngsters.

 

You can find the poll on http://www.motorsportmagazine.com

are you kidding yourself less than 400 votes, that's like nothing, What's does this specific vote on a specific site say?, ask a lot of people around the world. senna would be a given. but alonso wouldn't be near schumacher by any means. 



#75 Ikebana

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:38

The driver with the most wins, and the one with the largest amount of years in a dominant (not just competitive) car as well.



#76 CHIUNDA

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:28

I think it will be extremely hard for Vettel or anyone else to achieve this. Despite the last race, F1 is nowadays very close and almost a spec series. On most weekends, in particular early in the season, we can expect 4 or 5 teams to have a shot at the win each race weekend. Not to mention that the grid itself is also very strong with Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Rosberg (Button, Hulk)  as competition.
 
The other reason why this is hard is that Michael just entered his golden Ferrari years at that time, so his stats will be increasingly hard to keep up with.
 
Looking at it from a mathematical point of view: Vettel has won 29% of his races so far. If he keeps this up, he would need 200 more races to achieve 91 wins. Assuming there will be 20 race seasons in the future, that would be 10 years in which he needs to have similar success to what he had so far. Btw. Alonso has 15% win percentage and Hamilton 18%, which would result in 387 more races needed (20 years) and 323 more races needed (17 years). So, it is not completely impossible for him to race 10 more years with 6 wins per season on average, but very challenging. (And I don't even want to imagine the forum threads in 10 years if that actually happens ...)


Good maths. 6 wins per season is good enough for winning the WDC which is pretty much an impossible expectation for the next 10 year. It is unrealistic to expect such domination from Vettel for 14 consecutive years.

#77 CHIUNDA

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:49

After Japan 2004, would anyone have doubted that Michael Schumacher would reach a 100 wins? I suspect few would have bet against him. Yet he did not.
 
In Australia 2007, how many people would have believed that reigning world champion Alonso would only win six races in the next three years? That's exactly what happened.
 
After Brazil 2008, how many people would have accepted the suggestion that Felipe Massa would never win another race? Yet now it seems like that is becoming a reality.
 
In other words - of course Vettel could reach 91 wins. He's a young guy and he's certainly on top of his game, but you can't just project past results into the future. For all we know, Singapore 2013 will end up being his last win.


Yeah starting with KERS issues this morning, history is being made :-)

#78 sopa

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:45



Good maths. 6 wins per season is good enough for winning the WDC which is pretty much an impossible expectation for the next 10 year. It is unrealistic to expect such domination from Vettel for 14 consecutive years.

 

6 wins doesn't guarantee a championship. In 2005 and 2006 both contenders had 7 wins.

However, 6 wins should indicate that at the very least you are a contender for the championship, unless you suffer monumental unluck during the rest of the season. Perhaps even greater than Hamilton in 2012, who had 4 wins and was some 100 points off the WDC.

 

Basically this means Vettel should have either best or joint best car for the next decade. If he has an inferior (in terms of speed) car, he needs to rely on the misfortune of others to capitalize, like Alonso got 5 wins in 2010, several with the help of Vettel's problems. Of course not an impossible scenario either on an odd occasion.



#79 velgajski1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:20

Surpassing Schuey will be hard, but I would bet that he will surpass Prost. 



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#80 JensonWDC

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:45

Interesting - motorsportmagazine.com is probing exactly who the fans think is the best of the five leading the all time number of wins:

 

 

Poll
Thank you for voting!
Ayrton Senna  46.63%  (180 votes) 
 
 
Alain Prost  26.94%  (104 votes) 
 
 
Michael Schumacher  11.92%  (46 votes) 
 
 
Fernando Alonso  11.66%  (45 votes) 
 
 
Sebastian Vettel  2.85%  (11 votes) 
 
 
 

 

is the current standings. 

 

Quite interesting, besides Senna leading, which is a given, that Alonso is very close to Michael Schumacher in the fans' perception. And, Seb has not really arrived yet.

Of course, you could say this is motorsport.com, which is read by seasoned motorsport lovers and not youngsters.

 

You can find the poll on http://www.motorsportmagazine.com

 

That looks very representative...

not :lol: :drunk:


Edited by JensonWDC, 12 October 2013 - 08:46.


#81 V3TT3L

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 15:16

http://www.espn.co.u...ory/130411.html

'I shat myself when I first tested an F1 car' - Vettel

 

"The first time I tested the car, Mark drove in the morning and I drove in the afternoon," he said. "I shat myself for the first couple of laps and I thought, alright, that's for real men, not for me. Then I got used to it and obviously wanted to do more."


Edited by V3TT3L, 16 October 2013 - 15:18.


#82 motorhead

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:38

He will need a few more cars like the Ferrari F2002 or F2004 to achieve 90+ wins, so it seems rather unlikely and improbable. Of course, I'm not a fortune teller.

 

Yep, I remember back then when people were whining how it is all about the the car - sounds familiar  :cool:  . Ferrari was a clearly the best team even compared to RBR dominance today.

 

Ferrari/Schumi dominance (17 races/season)

2000 9 wins, two 2nd places, one 3rd, one 5th, 4 retirements

2001 9 wins, 5 second places, one 4th place, 2 retirements

2002 11 wins, five 2nd places, one 3rd

2003 He had to fight with Kimi in that one

2004 13 wins, two second places, one 7th, one 12th, one retirement



#83 lustigson

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:30

I find it hard to believe that Vettel could catch Schumacher's win record... but I also found it hard to believe that anyone would beat the Prost-Senna-Mansell stranglehold on that list... and look what Schumacher did.

 

Off-topic: I'm kind of sad that this list is losing the nice balance it had. It used to be Prost 51, Senna 41, Mansell 31, and Schumacher has a fitting 91 victories to his name. But now Vettel and Alonso have surpassed Mansell to screw up the list.  ;)



#84 sennafan24

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:25

That looks very representative...

not :lol: :drunk:

Hey, you cannot argue with the winner   ;)

 

It is nice to see Prost get a bit of credit, Vettel has not yet peaked in terms of greatness so give him a few more years before we access where he stands.



#85 mnmracer

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:51

I'm kind of sad that this list is losing the nice balance it had. It used to be Prost 51, Senna 41, Mansell 31, and Schumacher has a fitting 91 victories to his name. But now Vettel and Alonso have surpassed Mansell to screw up the list.  ;)

Thought the same. Ideally, we'd have Alonso go for 61 then, Hamilton for 71 and Vettel for 81.

Can't see Alonso do that though, not Hamilton either really.



#86 Winter98

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 13:05

Hey, you cannot argue with the winner   ;)

 

It is nice to see Prost get a bit of credit, Vettel has not yet peaked in terms of greatness so give him a few more years before we access where he stands.

The BBC F1 Team doesn't seem to need a few more years as they ranked SV 8th alltime, and that was while he was still a 2xWDC champ.



#87 sopa

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 13:11

I find it hard to believe that Vettel could catch Schumacher's win record... but I also found it hard to believe that anyone would beat the Prost-Senna-Mansell stranglehold on that list... and look what Schumacher did.

 

Off-topic: I'm kind of sad that this list is losing the nice balance it had. It used to be Prost 51, Senna 41, Mansell 31, and Schumacher has a fitting 91 victories to his name. But now Vettel and Alonso have surpassed Mansell to screw up the list.  ;)

 

Who knows, Vettel can end up on, say, 71 wins and Alonso on 41. Don't lose your hope yet.:D



#88 sennafan24

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 13:15

The BBC F1 Team doesn't seem to need a few more years as they ranked SV 8th alltime, and that was while he was still a 2xWDC champ.

Yeah, I remember that. I thought they jumped the gun every so slightly at the time

 

2013 has made rethink, whilst I still think 8th is a tad high when it was stated in 2012, I would not be more open to 8th now if another list was done. I still think the likes of Senna, Prost and Schumi are more worthy of top billing, but if someone said Vettel has surpassed Alonso at this stage, I would not bat an eyelid.

 

I still think we are to see the best of Seb.



#89 joshb

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 13:34

Yeah, I remember that. I thought they jumped the gun every so slightly at the time

 

2013 has made rethink, whilst I still think 8th is a tad high when it was stated in 2012, I would not be more open to 8th now if another list was done. I still think the likes of Senna, Prost and Schumi are more worthy of top billing, but if someone said Vettel has surpassed Alonso at this stage, I would not bat an eyelid.

 

I still think we are to see the best of Seb.

One of his big strengths, you hear Newey mention it all the time when asked, is that he learns from mistakes and very rarely makes the same mistake twice. I still think he will get better but the thing is, how much better can he get? Really, this season has been right up there with any season I've ever seen with regards to beating a good teammate so comprehensively and making minimal errors and having very few 'average' races.



#90 sennafan24

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 13:47

One of his big strengths, you hear Newey mention it all the time when asked, is that he learns from mistakes and very rarely makes the same mistake twice. I still think he will get better but the thing is, how much better can he get? Really, this season has been right up there with any season I've ever seen with regards to beating a good teammate so comprehensively and making minimal errors and having very few 'average' races.

Yeah, I can see a noted improvement from 2012, the guy makes very few mistakes. Once you get over the car advantage he probably has. and actually look at what he does with the car, you see a very tidy and precise driver. The pole lap in Korea was a excellent lap by any standard, he knew where to put the car to get the most out of it and his timing was A-1

 

I am not sure how his recent efforts will be judged in 10 years, I plan to watch the 2012 season back in a few years. as I was highly critical of Seb if I am honest, maybe in retrospect I may find I was harsh..

 

I hate sitting on the fence, but after 2013 I am not sure who is the best driver on the grid, my options have gone from 2 (Lewis and Alonso) to know 3 with Seb. 



#91 Winter98

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 13:47

Yeah, I remember that. I thought they jumped the gun every so slightly at the time

 

2013 has made rethink, whilst I still think 8th is a tad high when it was stated in 2012, I would not be more open to 8th now if another list was done. I still think the likes of Senna, Prost and Schumi are more worthy of top billing, but if someone said Vettel has surpassed Alonso at this stage, I would not bat an eyelid.

 

I still think we are to see the best of Seb.

I was surprised at the time as well, but they seemed to have known what they were talking about.

 

I also agree that he has more to do to reach the top tier.



#92 sennafan24

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 13:55

I was surprised at the time as well, but they seemed to have known what they were talking about.

 

One thing to remember is as well, they were judging on pure driving merit, not what Seb had achieved in terms of titles. Benson said personally he does not really care about raw stats when accessing greatness (hence why Senna won and Gilles made the top 10, something I agree with) 

 

They clearly saw something in Seb that put him over Alonso even in 2012! I still may say Alonso has an edge in my book if I compare them both at their best and their entire careers, but there is not as much in it as there was a year ago.

 

I think that is only natural when rating drivers, the more information and scenarios you put drivers in, the more you learn about them, and as time goes on the more they change and adapt. Therefore the more you see the fuller picture.


Edited by sennafan24, 17 October 2013 - 13:56.


#93 Winter98

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 14:05

One thing to remember is as well, they were judging on pure driving merit, not what Seb had achieved in terms of titles. Benson said personally he does not really care about raw stats when accessing greatness (hence why Senna won and Gilles made the top 10, something I agree with) 

 

They clearly saw something in Seb that put him over Alonso even in 2012! I still may say Alonso has an edge in my book if I compare them both at their best and their entire careers, but there is not as much in it as there was a year ago.

 

I think that is only natural when rating drivers, the more information and scenarios you put drivers in, the more you learn about them, and as time goes on the more they change and adapt. Therefore the more you see the fuller picture.

Yeah, still lots to be written by all the drivers over the next few years.  I'm really looking forward to next year, it could be crazy, especially if RG continues to improve, and we have another top driver added to the mix.



#94 ViMaMo

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 14:49

Pfffttt...... Christmas gifts by Uncle Newey.  :p



#95 tghik

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 14:50

I think that is only natural when rating drivers, the more information and scenarios you put drivers in, the more you learn about them, and as time goes on the more they change and adapt. Therefore the more you see the fuller picture.

 

Give him STR again and he will add maybe 1 more win if lucky conditions occur and your statistics go to hell ... unfortunately.



#96 joshb

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 16:49

Yeah, still lots to be written by all the drivers over the next few years.  I'm really looking forward to next year, it could be crazy, especially if RG continues to improve, and we have another top driver added to the mix.

RG has driven well in last few races but over a 20+ race season... I can't see it. Look at your top 4 if you want 'better than average' performances in 80% or more of the races because that's the standard you're going to have to hit. Vettel has had 3 races all year you can say were average (Oz, Spain, Hungary) and nothing I'd call sub-par (apart from maybe China qualy)... the standard required now is amazing



#97 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 21:41

Given the right car over a longer period he probably could. I just can't see Red Bull remaining as strong for another 4year stint with rule changes or whichever team Seb moves to achieving it either.

#98 RosannaG

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 22:26

Just imagine how many wins better drivers like Alonso, Hamilton or Raikkonen would have had they lucked into such cars as Red Bull in 2009. 

 

Alonso had the chance and he said no and I don't blame him because I don't think many people at that time would have thought that RBR was going to be the team to beat.   :well:

 

Anyway, imagination does not make anybody win titles...  :rolleyes:


Edited by RosannaG, 17 October 2013 - 22:28.


#99 sennafan24

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 22:57

Alonso had the chance and he said no and I don't blame him because I don't think many people at that time would have thought that RBR was going to be the team to beat.   :well:

 

Anyway, imagination does not make anybody win titles...  :rolleyes:

You should ignore, from what I have seen that guy is the most militant Seb-hater on the board, I mean no credit at all.



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#100 RosannaG

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 23:01

You should ignore, from what I have seen that guy is the most militant Seb-hater on the board, I mean no credit at all.

 

I will... Thanks for the warning!  :wave: