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Sebastian Vettel: More Wins than any Driver on the Grid


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Poll: Will Sebastian reach or surpass Michael's 91 Wins? (211 member(s) have cast votes)

Will Sebastian reach or surpass Michael's 91 Wins?

  1. Yes (44 votes [20.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.85%

  2. No (92 votes [43.60%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.60%

  3. How do I know? (75 votes [35.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.55%

Vote

#101 CoolBreeze

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:16

It's difficult. But he might do it. But even if he does it in the same particular style he's been doing the last 2-3 years, i doubt people will remember him the way they remember MS.



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#102 George Costanza

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:26

It's difficult. But he might do it. But even if he does it in the same particular style he's been doing the last 2-3 years, i doubt people will remember him the way they remember MS.

 

 

Well, that's because Michael did somehting no one else thought... Go to Ferrari and put on some stunning drives in a rather inferior Ferrari of the mid-late 1990s. I mean, would Michael be remembered if he stayed at Benetton (could have or went to Williams instead of Ferrari, which had the best cars from 1996-1999, he would have won the championships from 1994 to 1998, if he stayed at Benetton to 1996-1997 seasons when they had Renautl Power and had Ross Brawn influence. He could have been a 4-5 time WDC by 2000. 

 

But he chose Ferrari for that great challenge... and it paid off.

Therefore, if Seb wants to be like Michael, he has to go to another team, maybe Ferrari and win a title there.



#103 George Costanza

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:30

As a rabid fan of Schumacher, he still and probably never will surpass the aura of Ayrton Senna. I must say, no driver will surpass that, not even Fernando or Seb. There's a simple reason why Ayrton is considered the greatest of all time even if he doesn't have the records.... I will conceed that. It might sound very stupid or as a clique, but, Ayrton was....magic... in the car.

 

What driver can be 1.5 seconds faster at Monaco, of all places, vs Alain Prost, of all drivers?

 

Was Schumacher 1.5 seconds faster than any of his teammates in a given grand prix?


Edited by George Costanza, 18 October 2013 - 03:34.


#104 garagetinkerer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:53

I'm a big fan of Schumacher... and i'm fast becoming a fan of Vettel. It is not very hard when you see how professional he is. I was already a fan of his work ethic, but now just sodding look at his driving... If some "new" fans of the sport think they'll leave, hopefully they'll take DRS/ KERS etc., with them. No hard feelings, just don't let the door hit you on yours... as you leave! :p

 

I sincerely don't think that Vettel could possibly match/ beat the record of 91 wins... it is not that i doubt his talent, it is just that Schumacher managed his peak for so damned long. It is astonishing! His detractors as is usual will fall back to, "oh but what about Adelaide, Jerez and Rascasse?" However Schumacher won 7 WDC's out of 11 he vied for and could have won more... and had he kept moving teams for competitive machinery like Senna etc. did, his percentages would have been even better. Frankly speaking, it was a privilege to watch the great in action and not just read about it... Murray says, Schumacher is the greatest he's ever seen. Well, quite frankly, i wholeheartedly agree!

 

Vettel is very Schumacheresque... If anything, he's expanding the boundaries of work ethic ever so more... he's funny, media friendly and very talented (psst. look at old Schumacher videos... very Schumacheresque). I feel privileged to watch another student becoming the master...

 

Erm, I believe Vettel will have a claim in top 10 lists with his 4th WDC... though some may disagree, but i think it definitely seals it for me... As of now i rate Vettel in about top 20, Alonso in about top 25, Hamilton further away... As is Button and is Raikkonen as far as i'm concerned.

 

My list comprising of modern GP drivers... as of now...

Schumacher

Prost/ Fangio

Lauda

Brabham

 

My list gives more priority to what people did with their talents in equipment provided to them, rather than something ambiguous as the talent. Why? It is easy to relatively measure performances... on the other hand, how do you quantify who is more talented than who, especially over decades and drivers from various generations?



#105 George Costanza

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:12

Fernando Alonso is much more like Schumacher then Vettel is now currently. I think Fernando is doing his best driving of is career in this decade for Ferrari than his old days.

 

And no Ayrton? Ayrton was significantly better than Alain.


Edited by George Costanza, 18 October 2013 - 04:16.


#106 garagetinkerer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:49

Fernando Alonso is much more like Schumacher then Vettel is now currently. I think Fernando is doing his best driving of is career in this decade for Ferrari than his old days.

 

And no Ayrton? Ayrton was significantly better than Alain.

Hmm... as i said, for me it is not about who's more talented as that can be debated till kingdom come and then some... it is about relative performance in given machinery...

 

Prost is a lot underrated than many could possibly imagine. If someone won with the likes of Lauda, Piquet snr (who's also very underrated) and some more about... that kind of sealed it for me. More so, the tilt at McLaren (including Honda who reportedly had provided more powerful engines to Senna) skewed things in favour of Senna... this is again, based on what i've read. Does this mean i don't hold Senna in much regard? No! It is the opposite infact... I do. Then again, few will argue that Prost didn't achieve more than Senna.

 

Further down... it goes absolutely crazy for me :p I'm not joking... there's Senna, Piquet Snr. JYS etc... the ranking is going to be a doozy :p There's Ascari, Clark, Fittipaldi etc... Senna will come somewhere near top of that pile for me... yes, i know... :drunk: You've no idea how hard i find it to rate top 10 drivers :p

 

Hmm... i agree that Alonso is driving at his best ever... heck, he could be said to be a benchmark. This year though, Vettel is also very impressive, and dare i say it, relatively more impressive most of the times this year. If you only go by driving not so good Ferrari's then yes, Alonso is more like Schumacher... However, the performance gap isn't all that bad as in case of Schumacher who was fighting dominant Williams.



#107 krea

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:57

The talk about Senna is boring... the most people here were most likely not even born or F1 fans in the 80s.

 

And Alonso has the adventage that he can do whatever he wants. Either he outdrives the Ferrari or the car is not good enough.



#108 DarthWillie

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:35

Therefore, if Seb wants to be like Michael, he has to go to another team, maybe Ferrari and win a title there.


Why do I never hear this about Sebatian Loeb?

#109 RosannaG

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:46

Why do I never hear this about Sebatian Loeb?

 

Exactly. Or Senna who won his three titles at McLaren and I don't see anybody complaining... And when he signed for Williams he was already 33 years old...  :rolleyes:



#110 1Devil1

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:25

You should ignore, from what I have seen that guy is the most militant Seb-hater on the board, I mean no credit at all.

spot on. Credits to you 



#111 apoka

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:45

As a rabid fan of Schumacher, he still and probably never will surpass the aura of Ayrton Senna. I must say, no driver will surpass that, not even Fernando or Seb. There's a simple reason why Ayrton is considered the greatest of all time even if he doesn't have the records.... I will conceed that. It might sound very stupid or as a clique, but, Ayrton was....magic... in the car.

 

What driver can be 1.5 seconds faster at Monaco, of all places, vs Alain Prost, of all drivers?

 

Was Schumacher 1.5 seconds faster than any of his teammates in a given grand prix?

 

Well, nowadays you are accused of cheating or driving a different car with such a gap.  :p

 

Other than that, I think there have been such gaps before. A lot depends on the cars, regulations, quality of the team mate, general level of training of the drivers etc. Nowadays, you can run a track through the simulator and get a lot of feedback from the engineer, which allows you to train each corner. 

 

But let's try not to get too far off topic as this thread is not about qualies and Senna vs. Prost.   ;)



#112 sopa

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:16

Well, nowadays you are accused of cheating or driving a different car with such a gap.  :p

 

 

Good points. Let's remember Vettel and Singapore 2013.

 

I am sure if there were Internet forums around Monaco 1988 and 1989 there would have been accusations that Senna was given a superior car to Prost to get this 1.5s advantage.

 

Actually, regardless of forums or not, there were big suspicions anyway that Honda favoured Senna and gave him superior engines, at least in 1989.

 

Not wanna open up a can of worms here, but that's life. If you get a big advantage somewhere, then regardless of era it would both be a fantastic achievement and a creator of suspicions about favouring, which may even be true to extent. But one thing influences another - if a driver is great, he will naturally get more support.



#113 motorhead

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:21

As a rabid fan of Schumacher, he still and probably never will surpass the aura of Ayrton Senna. I must say, no driver will surpass that, not even Fernando or Seb. There's a simple reason why Ayrton is considered the greatest of all time even if he doesn't have the records.... I will conceed that. It might sound very stupid or as a clique, but, Ayrton was....magic... in the car.

 

What driver can be 1.5 seconds faster at Monaco, of all places, vs Alain Prost, of all drivers?

 

Was Schumacher 1.5 seconds faster than any of his teammates in a given grand prix?

 

Vettel did exactly the same a few races ago  ;)



#114 7MGTEsup

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:55

Vettel did exactly the same a few races ago  ;)

 

Not really, the 2 second advantage was artifical as the car behind him had problems and everyone else was stuck behind said car.



#115 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:18

More so, the tilt at McLaren (including Honda who reportedly had provided more powerful engines to Senna) skewed things in favour of Senna... this is again, based on what i've read. Does this mean i don't hold Senna in much regard? No! It is the opposite infact... I do. Then again, few will argue that Prost didn't achieve more than Senna.

 

I meant to mention this to you the other day

 

Prost did a Sky interview which I am sure is floating around on Youtube, Prost said it was only in 1989 where he became wary of Honda treatment, it would seem even he accepts that 1988 Senna beat him in a fair fight.

 

I know there is that Roebuck article floating around about 1988/engines, but the man with most to complain about did not mention it in a interview. He siad he only suspected in 1989.

 

1989 is a weird one, if they were favoring Senna (and I stress if, no firm evidence) it backfired as Senna had more faults with his engines. Over the two years, when nothing went wrong the majority of the time Senna won.


Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 14:06.


#116 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:20

 

 

Hmm... i agree that Alonso is driving at his best ever... heck, he could be said to be a benchmark. This year though, Vettel is also very impressive, and dare i say it, relatively more impressive most of the times this year. If you only go by driving not so good Ferrari's then yes, Alonso is more like Schumacher... However, the performance gap isn't all that bad as in case of Schumacher who was fighting dominant Williams.

In Alonso's defense, you could argue that Alonso is not racing JV or Hill (good drivers), but in fact a very good or great driver in Seb.


Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 11:25.


#117 mnmracer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:51

In Alonso's defense, you could argue that Alonso is not racing JV or Hill (good drivers), but in fact a very good or great driver in Seb.

No doubt that had Alonso been fighting Damon or Jacques in the Red Bull, he'd have been going for his 4th WDC by now.



#118 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 14:16

As a rabid fan of Schumacher, he still and probably never will surpass the aura of Ayrton Senna. I must say, no driver will surpass that, not even Fernando or Seb. There's a simple reason why Ayrton is considered the greatest of all time even if he doesn't have the records.... I will conceed that. It might sound very stupid or as a clique, but, Ayrton was....magic... in the car.

 

What driver can be 1.5 seconds faster at Monaco, of all places, vs Alain Prost, of all drivers?

 

Was Schumacher 1.5 seconds faster than any of his teammates in a given grand prix?

 

I distinctly remember times when Schumacher would demoralise the other drivers in certain conditions but he never had a 'Prost' team mate as Senna did so I agree with you in that respect, but... I think Senna will always be more highly rated more due to his charisma and character rather than cold statistics. When viewed in the cold light of day both were flawed competitors but in the words of Samuel  L Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction "Character goes a long way".



#119 joshb

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 14:25

This crap that no driver will surpass Senna... its rubbish. Someone will eventually. Senna for me was overly worshipped after he died. Sure his record is amazing but its not as if he was the only driver to ever do this or do that. I'd even go so far as to say as the all round package, he wasn't even the best of his time.

 

(Runs for cover)  :eek:



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#120 mnmracer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 14:36

After Clark died, everyone said no one would ever surpass him.

Senna in the minds of some did, about 20 years later.

20 years ago, Senna died. Everyone said no one would ever surpass him.



#121 Schuttelberg

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 14:45

This crap that no driver will surpass Senna... its rubbish. Someone will eventually. Senna for me was overly worshipped after he died. Sure his record is amazing but its not as if he was the only driver to ever do this or do that. I'd even go so far as to say as the all round package, he wasn't even the best of his time.

 

(Runs for cover)  :eek:

 

I've said this before, I'll say it again- One cannot quantify how good someone really is, if you completely ignore statistics. 

 

I for one, cannot and will not dare to say who out of Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher or Vettel is better. 

 

When I was on the forums in '06, I heard then that Alonso and Raikkonen were better than Schumacher ever was. So, once I heard that, I quickly learned that you can't reason with some people and certain facts/opinions will always be twisted in a way as to make someone better than the other.

 

I had this legendary debate with someone a year ago, who wouldn't give Prost a chance against Senna and he had just walked out of the Senna movie, never having seen Prost race. 

 

My only conclusion to such arguments is that it's impossible to really measure how good who was in comparison to someone now. I don't think Senna and Schumacher can be compared, just like Schumacher and Vettel can't. Different eras have different champions. 

 

I never saw Fangio race and I've been naive enough in the past to convincingly say that Schumacher was better than he ever could be. With age, a bit of maturity, we tend to realise. 

 

I started watching the season Senna passed away, but i've been fortunate enough to watch most of his career on tape. From what I've read and seen but not witnessed, I'd say Lauda, Prost and Senna (with Piquet and Mansell close behind), Schumacher and from the looks of it Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are the clear drivers of their eras. Vettel may surpass them when he's done, but this is where it's at. After 99, Hakkinen was in the same bracket as Schumacher, but fell aside by the time we reached 2004. Longevity of competitiveness obviously plays a big part. 

 

To round off, drivers of an era can be compared, but in my opinion, to compare generations is simply a naive, endless and useless task.



#122 Gorma

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 14:54

This crap that no driver will surpass Senna... its rubbish. Someone will eventually. Senna for me was overly worshipped after he died. Sure his record is amazing but its not as if he was the only driver to ever do this or do that. I'd even go so far as to say as the all round package, he wasn't even the best of his time.

 

(Runs for cover)  :eek:

Yep... Ron Dennis has said that there are people at McLaren who are conviced that Mika Häkkinen was the fastest ever and those guys had worked with all the greats including Senna. Remember that Mika beat Senna in his first qualification as team mates. Frank Williams has said that Keke Rosberg was the most talented when it came to car control. Although he said Senna was the best driver.



#123 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 15:01

This crap that no driver will surpass Senna... its rubbish. Someone will eventually. Senna for me was overly worshipped after he died. Sure his record is amazing but its not as if he was the only driver to ever do this or do that. I'd even go so far as to say as the all round package, he wasn't even the best of his time.

 

(Runs for cover)  :eek:

You best run son   ;)



#124 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 15:11

For myself I always look at 1993 as the most direct comparison between Senna and Schumi, because you can measure the most from it. In 1992 and 1994 they were racing in different cars, with different engine suppliers. This is a close as you can get for a direct comparison, as despite the different chassis, they were supplied by the same manufacturer.

 

- Senna had a advantage with traction control for the first 5 races, with Schumi having a better engine (from the same supplier)

 

- Then around 9 races past when Schumi raced in a car with a better engine, Senna had the same engine in the last 2 races or so.

 

- Both men had similar DNF's, with Schumi making 1 or 2 more driving errors.

 

With Schumi having what would appear to be a better version of the same car for 9 races, Senna still managed to out-score Scumi by over 21 points, which is around 50 points in today's money.

 

That my friends is why Senna is still regarded as such a legend, and too most observers the all time greatest. It is not just people romantically looking back at career of a dead man.


Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 15:13.


#125 krea

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 15:45

For myself I always look at 1993 as the most direct comparison between Senna and Schumi, because you can measure the most from it. In 1992 and 1994 they were racing in different cars, with different engine suppliers. This is a close as you can get for a direct comparison, as despite the different chassis, they were supplied by the same manufacturer.

 

- Senna had a advantage with traction control for the first 5 races, with Schumi having a better engine (from the same supplier)

 

- Then around 9 races past when Schumi raced in a car with a better engine, Senna had the same engine in the last 2 races or so.

 

- Both men had similar DNF's, with Schumi making 1 or 2 more driving errors.

 

With Schumi having what would appear to be a better version of the same car for 9 races, Senna still managed to out-score Scumi by over 21 points, which is around 50 points in today's money.

 

That my friends is why Senna is still regarded as such a legend, and too most observers the all time greatest. It is not just people romantically looking back at career of a dead man.

 

The difference between the two Ford engines were 35hp, while the McLaren was superior in anything else. 

 

It was inferior to the Williams but not to Benetton. Don't try to start rewriting history.



#126 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 15:50

The difference between the two Ford engines were 35hp, while the McLaren was superior in anything else. 

 

It was inferior to the Williams but not to Benetton. Don't try to start rewriting history.

35hp is still a clear advantage

 

The only advantage the Mclaren appeared to have early on was traction control which I listed. The chassis the Benetton was considered pretty good, there were times in that 9 races where Ricardo Patrese is his winter years was qualifying above/very near to Senna, that shows how strong the Benetton was.

 

I am not re-writing history at all.

 

Edit: To prove I am not rewriting history, I find a quote from Tom Rubython that says at the time the McLaren was "under-developed" in general and that Benetton were blocking Ford from giving McLaren better engines.

 

Plus once McLaren got a engine update, Benetton were given the latest model with improvements, the only had parity late on as I noted.


Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 16:03.


#127 krea

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:06

35hp is still a clear advantage

 

The only advantage the Mclaren appeared to have early on was traction control which I listed. The chassis the Benetton was considered pretty good, there were times in that 9 races where Ricardo Patrese is his winter years was qualifying above Senna, that shows how strong the Benetton was.

 

I am not re-writing history at all.

 

Edit: To prove I am not rewriting history, I find a quote from Tom Rubython that says at the time the McLaren was "under-developed" in general and that Benetton were blocking Ford from giving McLaren better engines.

 

Check the rain-races. The McLaren were so much better in the rain than Benetton. And yeah "under-developed" that's true but compared to the Williams.

 

 

The only reason why Schumacher and Benetton could drive for the WC titles in 1994 was because the FIA banned all driver aids - something Benetton was way weaker than Williams and McLaren. And whoops Schumacher beat the shit out of Senna until San Marino.



#128 garagetinkerer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:09

As a rabid fan of Schumacher, he still and probably never will surpass the aura of Ayrton Senna. I must say, no driver will surpass that, not even Fernando or Seb. There's a simple reason why Ayrton is considered the greatest of all time even if he doesn't have the records.... I will conceed that. It might sound very stupid or as a clique, but, Ayrton was....magic... in the car.

 

What driver can be 1.5 seconds faster at Monaco, of all places, vs Alain Prost, of all drivers?

 

Was Schumacher 1.5 seconds faster than any of his teammates in a given grand prix?

Hmm... seems like you forget drives like a certain Austrian GP with 27 odd qualifying laps in the race... then there was 2004 Magny Cours, where he defeated what were faster Renault's on that day by doing again qualifying style laps. No one believed Schumacher when he mentioned that he ran most of a Spanish GP in stuck in 5th to finish second, or when he won in an underpowered Ferrari on a wet track, when Villeneuve suggested that he made rest look like amateurs...

 

Senna is more revered than understood... whether one likes it or not, it doesn't change much. Again, do some research by yourself... Honda and McLaren favoured Senna, and Prost had a confirmation from a Honda guy... so yes, 1.5 seconds are easy to do with an advantage like that.


Edited by garagetinkerer, 18 October 2013 - 17:26.


#129 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:14

Check the rain-races. The McLaren were so much better in the rain than Benetton. And yeah "under-developed" that's true but compared to the Williams.

 

 

The only reason why Schumacher and Benetton could drive for the WC titles in 1994 was because the FIA banned all driver aids - something Benetton was way weaker than Williams and McLaren. And whoops Schumacher beat the shit out of Senna until San Marino.

That is why I mentioned the traction control in regards to the rain races in the first 5 races of the season if you check my original post. I agree McLaren had a advantage in those rain races early on up until Monaco.

 

Adrian Newey said last week the Williams 1994 that Senna drove was not a good car, Damon Hill agrees and says that the car was only good after Senna died. Newey felt it was a minor miracle Senna got the thing on pole.

 

Senna was miles ahead of his teammate Hill, he was no slouch as a driver in that first race. I will leave the 2nd race as Senna was shunted out and there are questions about Benetton at that point that do not need to be discussed due to how sensitive the subject is. I have never heard that McLaren had more driver aids than Benetton in 1993 also, Williams did have mind I agree there.

 

All I will say is that I believe the Benetton was the better car for the most of the 1993 season and I have said why, lets not side track the thread anyomore. If you want to go a few more rounds with me, feel free to message me.


Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 16:16.


#130 krea

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:20

It's just cute that the greatest F1 driver ever was driving in an era of driving aids.

 

You can complain about the artifical elements of shitty tyres, KERS or DRS today but that's nothing compared to the technolgy race of driving aids in the 80s and early 90s. 


Edited by krea, 18 October 2013 - 16:22.


#131 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:23

It's just cute that the greatest F1 driver ever was driving in an era of driving aids.

 

If you are regarding Senna in this, you also have to account for Prost and Schumi who was in that era on driving aids. Like I said above other than traction control, that Benetton got as after only 5 races, I do not think Senna got more driving aids than Schumi, Williams got the most.

 

I actually agree there is a double standard in regards to how today's racers are seen



#132 PaulTodd

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:24

He is already in a blessed for position for 5 years.

 

More 10 of this ? Good for him but i will not watch the races when it happens...maybe download some and see... Schumacher\Ferrari was already enough for me.

 

He deserves everything but 15 years of ultra competitive cars is... no words.

Back then it was not so bad. You knew Schumacher was the very best driver so him winning was not such a bad thing



#133 PaulTodd

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:34

It's just cute that the greatest F1 driver ever was driving in an era of driving aids.

 

You can complain about the artifical elements of shitty tyres, KERS or DRS today but that's nothing compared to the technolgy race of driving aids in the 80s and early 90s. 

From 1986 to 1993 it went pretty hardcore in terms of driver aids. Let's not Forget it was Ayrton that wanted all the driver aids removed due to the fact he was up against a technological disadvantage as the Mclaren in the 90's was way behind other teams. I think it's cute how you don't recognize this.



#134 sopa

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:43

For myself I always look at 1993 as the most direct comparison between Senna and Schumi, because you can measure the most from it. In 1992 and 1994 they were racing in different cars, with different engine suppliers. This is a close as you can get for a direct comparison, as despite the different chassis, they were supplied by the same manufacturer.

 

- Senna had a advantage with traction control for the first 5 races, with Schumi having a better engine (from the same supplier)

 

- Then around 9 races past when Schumi raced in a car with a better engine, Senna had the same engine in the last 2 races or so.

 

- Both men had similar DNF's, with Schumi making 1 or 2 more driving errors.

 

With Schumi having what would appear to be a better version of the same car for 9 races, Senna still managed to out-score Scumi by over 21 points, which is around 50 points in today's money.

 

That my friends is why Senna is still regarded as such a legend, and too most observers the all time greatest. It is not just people romantically looking back at career of a dead man.

 

1993 was one of Senna's best seasons in F1 if not even the best, while Schumacher was only in his second full season in F1 and you certainly don't consider 1993 his best season, more like the ones later in the 90's. Not a fair comparison imo.



#135 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 16:52

1993 was one of Senna's best seasons in F1 if not even the best, while Schumacher was only in his second full season in F1 and you certainly don't consider 1993 his best season, more like the ones later in the 90's. Not a fair comparison imo.

Fair point, I can take that one, I do consider Schumi's prime from 1993-2002 as he was very quick on the uptake, much like Lewis was. I still think 91 is Senna's best season, better than 1993. But given the circumstances or at least my perception of them if you disagree, I think it is weighty victory for Senna.

 

I admit, I was a bit gung-ho in my defense of Senna that was not really warranted

 

Anyway back to Seb and the subject matter of his wins. 

 

I always judge on the quality of wins and not the quantity personally, but Se b is amassing some quality wins this year. Japan and Germany I feel were his best this year, as some cars were really close to him in pace, and in Germany it seemed the Lotus was quicker. I know some will plump for Singapore, but for me his Germany victory is his best, maybe even better than Monza 2008.


Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 16:52.


#136 Gorma

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 17:04

I always judge on the quality of wins and not the quantity personally, but Se b is amassing some quality wins this year. Japan and Germany I feel were his best this year, as some cars were really close to him in pace, and in Germany it seemed the Lotus was quicker. I know some will plump for Singapore, but for me his Germany victory is his best, maybe even better than Monza 2008.

And the qualy in Suzuka with no KERS.



#137 garagetinkerer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 17:25

I meant to mention this to you the other day

 

Prost did a Sky interview which I am sure is floating around on Youtube, Prost said it was only in 1989 where he became wary of Honda treatment, it would seem even he accepts that 1988 Senna beat him in a fair fight.

 

I know there is that Roebuck article floating around about 1988/engines, but the man with most to complain about did not mention it in a interview. He siad he only suspected in 1989.

 

1989 is a weird one, if they were favoring Senna (and I stress if, no firm evidence) it backfired as Senna had more faults with his engines. Over the two years, when nothing went wrong the majority of the time Senna won.

Prost got a confirmation from a Honda honcho (Honda thought of Senna as a Samurai, and hence the favour...) and that is as firm as it gets... at places like French GP, Prost suddenly had engine maps he required/ wanted, which at other places went missing. There's another incident when Prost was reportedly working with 5 odd people on his side of the garage, but there was an army on Senna's side. Of course this is from '89. Learning what i did... i wouldn't say that it was "equal" between the two of them...

 

About 1988, Prost admits, that he had no reasons to suspect foulplay... but knowing Ron as we do :rotfl: and all the tom-dickery he indulged in :rotfl:  well, i wouldn't give him a clean chit yet!



#138 garagetinkerer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 17:33

If you are regarding Senna in this, you also have to account for Prost and Schumi who was in that era on driving aids. Like I said above other than traction control, that Benetton got as after only 5 races, I do not think Senna got more driving aids than Schumi, Williams got the most.

 

I actually agree there is a double standard in regards to how today's racers are seen

Do you sincerely think McLaren with their budgets and engineers made an inferior car than Benetton? McLaren had a lot of problems with their engines in the 90's... but till early 2000's they were easily second best when it came to the car chassis and vehicle dynamics, if not the best.



#139 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 17:36

Do you sincerely think McLaren with their budgets and engineers made an inferior car than Benetton? McLaren had a lot of problems with their engines in the 90's... but till early 2000's they were easily second best when it came to the car chassis and vehicle dynamics, if not the best.

Considering the car was described as "under-developed"

 

I say yes.

 

Benetton in my view were a team on the rise, and at that stage McLaren were team on the downfall. Benetto had much firmer relationship with Ford, so they knew how to build a car that complimented the engine etc.

 

Benetton were much more efficient with what they had.


Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 17:39.


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#140 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 17:39

Prost got a confirmation from a Honda honcho (Honda thought of Senna as a Samurai, and hence the favour...) and that is as firm as it gets... at places like French GP, Prost suddenly had engine maps he required/ wanted, which at other places went missing. There's another incident when Prost was reportedly working with 5 odd people on his side of the garage, but there was an army on Senna's side. Of course this is from '89. Learning what i did... i wouldn't say that it was "equal" between the two of them...

 

About 1988, Prost admits, that he had no reasons to suspect foulplay... but knowing Ron as we do :rotfl: and all the tom-dickery he indulged in :rotfl:  well, i wouldn't give him a clean chit yet!

But if they were favoring Ayrton it clearly failed, as the new Honda engines blew up in his face, whilst the old ones did not fail Prost as much.

 

If we are to believe the Prost explanation that Honda favored Senna, do we believe that McLaren favored Prost in 1988 at times as well. I messaged you earlier about the France GP theory, if you want to carry on maybe message me. I have taken this bad boy off-topic too much already today.

 

And no one thinks Ron is a sleazy git more than me, but I think 88 was a fair fight still.


Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 17:40.


#141 garagetinkerer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 18:24

Vettel and Indian GP anyone... do you think he'll win this one too? Does anyone have stats to most wins at a circuit? I'm sure Michael has at most of them... but can someone add information? I feel Vettel will see this go soon enough :p



#142 krea

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 18:25

From 1986 to 1993 it went pretty hardcore in terms of driver aids. Let's not Forget it was Ayrton that wanted all the driver aids removed due to the fact he was up against a technological disadvantage as the Mclaren in the 90's was way behind other teams. I think it's cute how you don't recognize this.

 

And Senna was against removing driver aids for 1994.

 

So he had two different opinions about the same thing.



#143 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 18:43

And Senna was against removing driver aids for 1994.

 

So he had two different opinions about the same thing.

You got a link to that? Would be interested to read about that. I think the point was you linked driver-aids with a driver he was not exactly keen on them, and who most would say did not benefit from them, or at least not as much as others.

 

I can find some middle ground in saying, when I watched the 1992 season back, both Senna and Schumi were hindered by the disadvantage of driving aids against the mighty Williams,.

 

Prost himself said without the driving aids, the car was a bit of a dog, so Senna got Fools Gold for 1994. Something Newey has also gone on the record as saying.



#144 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 18:44

Vettel and Indian GP anyone... do you think he'll win this one too? Does anyone have stats to most wins at a circuit? I'm sure Michael has at most of them... but can someone add information? I feel Vettel will see this go soon enough :p

Barring a DNF through mechanical error Seb will win at India.

 

A. He is good at the track on pure driving merit

 

B. RB are mega strong there also.

 

Its a pretty unbeatable combo



#145 mnmracer

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 18:44



Vettel and Indian GP anyone... do you think he'll win this one too? Does anyone have stats to most wins at a circuit? I'm sure Michael has at most of them... but can someone add information? I feel Vettel will see this go soon enough :p

8 wins at the same Grand Prix
Michael Schumacher
French Grand Prix: 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006
 
7 wins at the same Grand Prix
Michael Schumacher
Canadian Grand Prix: 1994, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004
San Marino Grand Prix: 1994, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006
 
6 wins at the same Grand Prix
Alain Prost
Brazilian Grand Prix: 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990
French Grand Prix: 1981, 1983, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1993
 
Ayrton Senna
Monaco Grand Prix: 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993
 
Michael Schumacher
Belgian Grand Prix: 1992, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2001, 2002
Spanish Grand Prix: 1995, 1996, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004
Japanese Grand Prix: 1995, 1997, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004
European Grand Prix: 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2004, 2006

 

Sebastian's best are now:

Japan: 4x

Italy: 3x

Korea: 3x

Singapore: 3x

Malasia: 3x

India: soon to be 3x (got money on that :p )


Edited by mnmracer, 18 October 2013 - 18:52.


#146 krea

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 19:04

You got a link to that? Would be interested to read about that. I think the point was you linked driver-aids with a driver he was not exactly keen on them, and who most would say did not benefit from them, or at least not as much as others.

 

I can find some middle ground in saying, when I watched the 1992 season back, both Senna and Schumi were hindered by the disadvantage of driving aids against the mighty Williams,.

 

Prost himself said without the driving aids, the car was a bit of a dog, so Senna got Fools Gold for 1994. Something Newey has also gone on the record as saying.

 

 

An interview with him. He repeated his statement several times in different interviews - in some he was pretty vocal against it but I think only this short interview is on youtube.



#147 sennafan24

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 19:44

 

An interview with him. He repeated his statement several times in different interviews - in some he was pretty vocal against it but I think only this short interview is on youtube.

Thanks for that.

 

He just seems annoyed that the advantage the other drivers had over him and that he seeked to gain for himself, was taken away from it. It is a bit hypocritical of him to campaign for the outlawing of them, then to complain when he cannot use them to his advantage mind. Then again I would be pissed off if I was him.

 

I am a Senna fanatic, but the man had his flaws like all the greats, so I am not exactly defending him in this case.



#148 paulrobs

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 20:04

Will he / won't he?

 

You're mistaking me for somone who gives a s**t :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:



#149 Briz

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 20:23

For myself I always look at 1993 as the most direct comparison between Senna and Schumi, because you can measure the most from it. In 1992 and 1994 they were racing in different cars, with different engine suppliers. This is a close as you can get for a direct comparison, as despite the different chassis, they were supplied by the same manufacturer.

 

- Senna had a advantage with traction control for the first 5 races, with Schumi having a better engine (from the same supplier)

 

- Then around 9 races past when Schumi raced in a car with a better engine, Senna had the same engine in the last 2 races or so.

 

- Both men had similar DNF's, with Schumi making 1 or 2 more driving errors.

 

With Schumi having what would appear to be a better version of the same car for 9 races, Senna still managed to out-score Scumi by over 21 points, which is around 50 points in today's money.

 

That my friends is why Senna is still regarded as such a legend, and too most observers the all time greatest. It is not just people romantically looking back at career of a dead man.

 

Point tally doesnt say it all. 1993 first few races made a huge points difference between Senna and Schumacher and a lot of it was due to chance, not just Senna's great performance. First, Senna closed the door on Schumacher in South Africa and took him out of the race. Then he got two rain race wins when he had great TC and Schumi didn't have it. Senna himself said his Portugal 1985 win had much more value than 1993 Donnington because of TC. I am not saying those two rain wins weren't impressive, but Schumacher simply had no chance without TC. Look at 3-4 rain races from '91 and '92 where both drove and see what happened... Then in Monaco Schumacher had a failure while in the lead and Senna inherited the win.

 

I think if the start of the season wasn't so bad for Schumacher and so amazingly good for Senna, Schumi would have once more shown he is the better campaign fighter. Senna had his magic moments, but over a season campaign monsters like Prost and Schumacher had a good chance against him in equal machinery.



#150 RosannaG

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 20:31

1993 was one of Senna's best seasons in F1 if not even the best, while Schumacher was only in his second full season in F1 and you certainly don't consider 1993 his best season, more like the ones later in the 90's. Not a fair comparison imo.

 

I agree with you, the comparaison is pretty unfair... One was 24 years old, the other was 33 and, most important, already 3 times world champion... :well: