221 replies to this topic

[kosmos]

Hans-Joachim Stuck (German motor racing legend):

 

Stuck, 62, said Vettel “does not have the charisma of an Alonso or a Raikkonen”.

 

“Either you have it or you don’t,” he insisted. “He’s still a great guy.”

 

Stuck said Raikkonen and Lewis Hamilton fit much more with the “typical racing driver cliche”.

“One has women, the other is often drunk under the table. And drivers with corners and edges are more loved by the fans at certain times than a slick one who only wins,” he added.

 

More here: http://www.f1zone.ne...ys-stuck/20506/

 

 

Edited by Gilles4Ever, 25 September 2013 - 12:07.

[Cyanide]

To be honest, Vettel's personal life is completely hidden from public. He shows up to a grand prix, wins, and then he disappears and you never hear from him off-track. Therefore, people can't really sympethize with the guy - whereas Alonso is on twitter, girlfriend and whatnot, cycling team. Kimi has the drunk charisma, and the party animal vibe. 

 

Vettel is shallow to the public, he shows no side of his personal life. My two cents on the matter. 

[maverick69]

I don't think so.

 

Put it this way: I'd rather go for a pint with Seb than say, Lewis or Fred.

[Taxi]

Charisma is something you build. In and out the track. Vettel is very young and you can't always be charismatic when you'r young. his charisma will come with the years and if he goes to another team and struggles a year or two with a bad car  like Alonso and Kimi.

 

People shouldn't be so worried about charisma, he's winning everything, I'm sure he preferes to be a less charismatic 4 times world champion than a charismatic 1 time world champion like Hamilton or Kimi. I know I would.

[KateLM]

Hmm. For some reason he isn't clicking with a number of fans but whether that is down to a lack of charisma I'm not sure. What he has, particularly amongst the more casual fanbase, is an image perception problem. 

 

Instead of moaning about whether the fact he has an image problem is fair or not, it would be best for Red Bull to accept that for whatever reason he does have one and work on changing those perceptions. And given past events that have probably contributed to the problem, Horner and Marko going out on the defensive really isn't going to do any good on that front.

[tifosiMac]

I don't think so.

 

Put it this way: I'd rather go for a pint with Seb than say, Lewis or Fred.

I think I would say the same even though I am a Hamilton fan. Sebastian seems a nice guy generally even if some of his actions on track I have not agreed with. I'd definitely go for a pint with the lad. If he didn't pay though, that would be a different story!!

[Diablobb81]

Lack of charisma? Not necessarily. Lack of PR compared to the rest? Certainly.

[Sin]

No lack of charisma.... what could help him potentially would be a twitter account and more contact to his fans off track

[sopa]

I think I have to agree that Vettel is not exactly charismatic, however I don't consider Alonso charismatic either nor Hamilton for that matter. Raikkonen has something about him, but I am not sure I'd call it charisma.

 

Charismatic drivers are/were people like Senna, Zanardi, Valentino Rossi. Hakkinen as well, though he seems a bit different - through and through calm Finnish character.

[HoldenRT]

People used to say the same thing about Casey Stoner in MotoGP.. criticising his non driving/riding abilities (his personality) and I just don't get it.

 

I feel like I am watching Big Brother or something.  I can't even comment on this topic very well because I don't really know what people are talking about.  Seb is clever, has humour.. watch his Top Gear or Letterman interviews.  He's fast and dedicated.  I'm not sure what else he is supposed to have.  I feel like to comment on this properly, I'd need to be a female fan who doesn't watch F1.  A casual female F1 fan or something.  Jake Humphries might know more about it.

[f1motogp]

I think it's because he isn't political or an attention seeker.
That's the reason why i also like his personality. I,m glad that despite all his success he has remained down to earth and focussed.

[Crossmax]

Lack of charisma... that would be Paul di Resta out of the current drivers.

[sennafan24]

At the start of this year I would have said yes.

 

But the satisfaction comment and his monkeying around with Lewis have made me view him in a different way. He is quite personable as well. Vettel will never be Senna or Lewis in the charisma/superstar stakes, but he is not a complete drone.

 

Di Resta is probably your best bet for lacking charisma

 

Edit: Crossmax beat me to it by a second.

Edited by sennafan24, 25 September 2013 - 10:19.

[sopa]

I think we have to define here, what charisma is. For me it means that it is a warm person (you can feel the warmth, when you spend time together), engages well with people, depth in character, has interesting views on life and feel of the world where we live. It is just interesting to talk to such person and listen to him.

 

I don't think any of the current top drivers possesses that kind of charisma, but if I had to choose one with who to go out for a drink, I might opt for Vettel above Raikkonen, Hamilton and Alonso too. I think if nothing else, it would be a bit funnier to joke with him than with others.

[Muppetmad]

I wouldn't say he's not charismatic - he frequently tells jokes in press conferences which are actually funny, which given that English isn't his first language is pretty impressive and doesn't indicate to me that he lacks charisma. Whether he shares enough of his personal life with the public for them to be able to connect to him is another matter, and one I personally don't care much for - it's his personal life. he can share as much as he feels inclined to share.

[SophieB]

It's not going to help when everyone always struggles to define exactly what charisma is and therefore either come up with lists of those who have it and those who don't, or define it in terms of synonyms which share the same problem like 'star quality' or 'glamour'. Both approaches seem a bit unsatisfactory because they boil down ultimately to individuals basically going 'I know it when I see it'.

 

I personally would not include a sense of how friendly they might be to me in a social setting as an aspect of charisma but hey, as I say it's not like there's a firm definition. If I was to try, I'd define charisma in terms of how compelling they seem as people - do people want to talk about them, discuss aspects of their character? Do they seem to stand for something a bit more than they really ought to when looked at dispassionately? However, I'm aware I'm falling into the same trap I warned of because I was fighting the impulse to start talking in terms of 'magnetic' personalities, 'striking' photographs etc.

 

I would also add that lacking this mysterious quality doesn't preclude drivers being popular necessarily. People can warm to the 'boy/girl next door' characters because they can seem more directly relatable.

 

edited to add: On further reflection and unhelpful though it may be, one key aspect that defines charisma is probably the fact that it cannot be isolated. It's the quality that makes someone compelling for reasons that can't quite be explained away.

[HoldenRT]

I think we have to define here, what charisma is. For me it means that it is a warm person (you can feel the warmth, when you spend time together), engages well with people, depth in character, has interesting views on life and feel of the world where we live. It is just interesting to talk to such person and listen to him.

 

 

That's a pretty good definition I guess, but it seems like to be someone like that.. completely contradicts and would be counter intuitive while trying to compete in the uber competitive macho environment of F1.  That sounds more like Oprah, and F1 are one step below fighter pilots.

[Kelateboy]

He has the look and the image of a Justin Bieber. He should toughen up a bit and be a bit of a playboy - that would do wonders to his "image" and "reputation".  Plus get a better PR machine.

[InfectedPumpkin]

Lack of charisma? No. You just don't know him, because he is trying to hide his problems and success' in private life.

He just have his personal life far from F1. And it is good.

He is great guy. He is not superstar like Alonso, Hamilton or even Raikkonen.

Paparazzi can't find anything extraoridinary, because he is normal guy. No scandals whatsoever. He don't write bs on twitter and so on.

 

I will say it again - he has great personality. Everyone who meet him can tell this.

[sennafan24]

It's not going to help when everyone always struggles to define exactly what charisma is and therefore either come up with lists of those who have it and those who don't, or define it in terms of synonyms which share the same problem like 'star quality' or 'glamour'. Both approaches seem a bit unsatisfactory because they boil down ultimately to individuals basically going 'I know it when I see it'.

 

I personally would not include a sense of how friendly they might be to me in a social setting as an aspect of charisma but hey, as I say it's not like there's a firm definition. If I was to try, I'd define charisma in terms of how compelling they seem as people - do people want to talk about them, discuss aspects of their character? Do they seem to stand for something a bit more than they really ought to when looked at dispassionately? However, I'm aware I'm falling into the same trap I warned of because I was fighting the impulse to start talking in terms of 'magnetic' personalities, 'striking' photographs etc.

 

I would also add that lacking this mysterious quality doesn't preclude drivers being popular necessarily. People can warm to the 'boy/girl next door' characters because they can seem more directly relatable.

Yeah it is hard to define, I will not knock Vettel's charisma for him being a introvert away from the track, Senna was very shy and introverted in many ways and for me he is the definition of charisma. I would say expression is a large part of charisma, but Kimi would be a contradiction to that.

 

Charisma can be made up of several character traits.

[Timstr11]

I also see Vettel as part of the RedBull furniture. Not his own man.

Drivers like Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen are more free-spirited characters.

Maybe it's because he's had few character building experiences, e.g with other lower or under-performing teams.

He's quite young still.

[Sin]

People used to say the same thing about Casey Stoner in MotoGP.. criticising his non driving/riding abilities (his personality) and I just don't get it.

 

I feel like I am watching Big Brother or something.  I can't even comment on this topic very well because I don't really know what people are talking about.  Seb is clever, has humour.. watch his Top Gear or Letterman interviews.  He's fast and dedicated.  I'm not sure what else he is supposed to have.  I feel like to comment on this properly, I'd need to be a female fan who doesn't watch F1.  A casual female F1 fan or something.  Jake Humphries might know more about it.

 

charisma is not attractiveness really so you don't need to be female or a casual fan to judge it....

If it were about the girls o.o depends on the age but in the younger generation Seb seems to be the most popular...

However charisma is something else so I understand sopa when he says Alonso and Hamilton and Seb aren't particulary charismatic... in a way I agree with that Raikkönen is probably be the most charismatic of the current F1 drivers, that doesn't mean tho the other 3 are uncharismatic and Seb is still my favorite driver simply cause I like his personality more than for example Kimis... in Kimis case, I don't dislike him but I don't care much for him either,  just all neutral towards him, but it is true that he got that charisma other drivers don't have!

Edited by Sin, 25 September 2013 - 10:30.

[Tract1on]

I dont think so.....

As much as i dont like the Red Bull's dominance and Vettel's one finger salute you cant help but warm to the guy when you see him interviewed away from the race track. Ted Kravitz did a short interview which aired on Sky on the weekend, the guy has plenty of charisma, is interesting to listen to, seems well grounded and has a good sense of humor, seems like a pretty nice guy.

Ruthless desire to win, yes. Annoying dominance, yes. Nice guy, yes. Charisma, yes.

But ffs please someone beat him next year because i was so bored watching the last 3 grand prix's i literally lost all interest after the first lap.....

Edited by Tract1on, 25 September 2013 - 10:33.

[Jackmancer]

It just takes time.

 

When Hamilton arrived and won his championship in only his second year, I thought it was too fast, and I didn't think as much as the driver Hamilton as I do now.

 

I still see Vettel as relativly new, compared to Hamilton, but especially to Alonso and Raikkonen.

[KateLM]

Yeah, if we try to define charisma then we're going to get into trouble here. On paper Raikkonen is as charismatic as an ant but you can't deny there is something about him that appeals to many people, even if I don't quite see it myself.

 

I'm fully of the opinion that Vettel's private life is his business, and it means nothing to me how much of that he chooses to share. However, I'm also of the opinion that he wants to be liked (the annual "I'm German lols" Autosport Awards speech alone is proof of that) and the booing is getting to him. It's up to him how much he's willing to sacrifice to try and rectify that.

[Thomas99]

Charisma is likability, genuineness, humility. Hell yes he lacks those things.

[chunder27]

I do think Seb could turn it round by playing to the crowd a bit, that might endear him to a few fans

[sopa]

charisma is not attractiveness really so you don't need to be female or a casual fan to judge it....

If it were about the girls o.o depends on the age but in the younger generation Seb seems to be the most popular...

However charisma is something else so I understand sopa when he says Alonso and Hamilton and Seb aren't particulary charismatic... in a way I agree with that Raikkönen is probably be the most charismatic of the current F1 drivers, that doesn't mean tho the other 3 are uncharismatic and Seb is still my favorite driver simply cause I like his personality more than for example Kimis... in Kimis case, I don't dislike him but I don't care much for him either,  just all neutral towards him, but it is true that he got that charisma other drivers don't have!

 

From current F1 drivers Ricciardo gives a vibe of having charisma. Well, imo more than Raikkonen. But have to see more of Dani to be sure about that.

Edited by sopa, 25 September 2013 - 10:43.

[Gilles4Ever]

This thread is not about being booed it's about his charisma, nothing else!

 

 

charisma 

a. A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm.

b. Personal magnetism or charm: a television news program famed for the charisma of its anchors.

[Sin]

From current F1 drivers Ricciardo gives a vibe of having charisma. Well, imo more than Raikkonen. But have to see more of Dani to be sure about that.

 

don't think Ricciardo is more charismatic than Seb, for me they are on the same level... I think Bianchi got charisma.... Hülkenberg too..

Sutil too in a way, that it is intimidating... I like Sutil.... but sometimes he looks really scary... and I don't think he really wanted to hurt the guy he hurt... but ... dunno it's just a vibe...

and that is also a form of charisma if you can intimidate people...

 

dunno but who really obviously has charisma is Raikönnen

 

if this whole anti-Vettel mood escaletes into redbull brand recognition and sales results... some people will get worried

 

Why would it? I didn't drink Red Bull before I became Sebs fan, I am not drinking it now either.... don't think someone who always drank Red Bull would stop drinking Red Bull just cause he dislikes Seb

Edited by Sin, 25 September 2013 - 10:49.

[Lights]

I agree he lacks charisma but not for the reasons stated in the OP.

[SophieB]

This thread is not about being booed it's about his charisma, nothing else!

 

 

charisma 

a. A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm.

b. Personal magnetism or charm: a television news program famed for the charisma of its anchors.

 

Ha! I love that even the dictionary shrugs and says oh you people are on your own with what this word means, you'll know it when you see it.

[undersquare]

Yeah he lacks charisma, that feeling you get that they're Special.  It's quite hard to define.  His 'pitlane persona' is a humorous, personable lad, I feel he's "quite nice".  

 

Whereas with Lewis, Nando or Kimi I always feel I'm looking at someone extraordinary.

 

Maybe it's that Sebi hides his intensity, and that's why I also find him a bit false: I can't marry up the cheery lad in the pitlane with the uber-arrogant guy on the car radio.

 

I felt this showed up in the piece Ted Kravitz did in the car with him last weekend - there was hardly any interesting footage of Sebi, it was all Ted.

[Tsarwash]

I think that Lewis has a strong personality, but little charisma compared to Seb, who keeps his personality hidden away from people. On track, I would rather be watching Lewis beating Seb than vice versa, but I would far rather go for a pint with Seb, than Lewis. I think that he would be funny and entertaining. I'm pretty sure that Fred is actually very charming outside of the car and pressure situation. Perhaps because Seb deals with pressure better than the other two, he is seen as less human. Fred and Lewis both seem to buckle to the pressure and throw toys out of the pram occasionally, and perhaps this endears them to people because they seem more human because of it. At the track, we never saw the human side of Schumi 1.0, apart from his occasional anger. We saw Mika's weaknesses, and it didn't diminish his reputation. Peopel adore Senna, and often his human side was shown. 

[P0inters]

I think he does things like going for fastest lap just to show off . That's just MY opinion. I don't think he has charisma but I don't think any other drivers on the grid do either. They've all turned into PR robots. I'm just stating that I find Vettel arrogant and that's why I don't like him , not because he lacks charisma.

[Sin]

But what does having much charisma mean? It does not mean everyone will like you just cause you have charisma, it just means you have it easier in making the people like you.

That's why for example nobody can deny Adolf Hitler had charisma, even tho he did do the terrible things he did, he could inspire the masses.

So in a way Schumacher was charismatic too, cause he as well inspired masses (don't want to compare him with Hitler here, Schumi never did terrible things like Hitler did, but they both had charisma) but I really disliked him till he joined Mercedes, because of his personality. While I think Seb can't inspire the masses in the way Schumacher did, I still like him more because of his personality.

 

However I think charisma can come with age and Seb is younger than Schumacher, when I first saw him race and younger than Raikönnen, so it is something he still can develope.

Edited by Sin, 25 September 2013 - 11:04.

[Racer3]

Not his own man.

Drivers like Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen are more free-spirited characters.

 

Vettel not his own man?

Less "free-spirited" than the other 3 top drivers?

 

 

Like his antics or not, Vettel is very much his own man, doesn't even need a manager, has got lots of brain, his own opinon and strong analyzing capabilities -- and I wonder why anybody would call him "less free-spirited" than other top drivers.

 

On a related note:

 

This forum now has more Vettel threads than anything else, most of them actually just being a pretext for venting off frustration and negativity by people that sound like immature teenage groupies.

[Tsarwash]

So in a way Schumacher was charismatic too, cause he as well inspired masses 

I would say that Schumi inspired people for his actions rather than his charisma. A good parallel would be pre-release Mandela who inspired millions, even though almost none had met him or seen or heard interviews with him. You are right in the definition of charisma, but it's probably not the only valid one. 

[Gilles4Ever]

In less than a page an enormous amount of editing and deletion has been needed because the topic cannot be discussed in a civilised manner and the forum rules cannot be adhered to.

 

Please keep to the topic,  Hans Stuck: Vettel does not have the charisma of an Alonso or a Raikkonen. 

The thread topic is valid, if you don't like the topic don't post. If you feel that strongly about it PM the moderation team and explain why it shouldn't be allowed.

Charisma cannot be defined narrowly, so please think about the direction the thread will go when you post, This is not a Vettel bash/worship thread.

If a post or part of a post is off topic do not reply to it and drag the thread further off topic.

[Tsarwash]

I think this topic is valid because Seb is currently dominating the sport, AND he definitely an image problem to a significant amount of fans. Myself and another poster were PMing about this, and I am sure that Seb will have an amount of image coaching in the close season. My opinion is that he is a likable chap, but doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve unlike a few other drivers do, but neither does he wrap a cloud of ice around himself like Kimi, which creates an aura of mystique. 

[Seanspeed]

I think he's actually more charismatic than either.  Definitely more of an outgoing personality, speaks well(even in English, he's very at ease) and is quite funny.

Edited by Seanspeed, 25 September 2013 - 12:21.

[Tron]

I judge a driver how he races, not whether his smile tickles my fances. So it doesn't bother me, nor can I tell, if Vettel is more charismatic.

[David Lightman]

I wouldn't say he's not charismatic - he frequently tells jokes in press conferences which are actually funny, which given that English isn't his first language is pretty impressive and doesn't indicate to me that he lacks charisma. Whether he shares enough of his personal life with the public for them to be able to connect to him is another matter, and one I personally don't care much for - it's his personal life. he can share as much as he feels inclined to share.

I'm no big fan of SV but I agree with the above, he comes across very well I think out of the car (finger excepted). How you can say he's not charismatic when you have people like Di Resta on the grid I don't know.

 

Edit: For those of us who remember Senna of course all the current drivers seem somewhat lacking in charisma.

Edited by David Lightman, 25 September 2013 - 12:25.

[Jovanotti]

Seb definitely has charisma, but I believe the big discrepancy between ruthless on track behaviour/finger etc. and the image he gives when talking on other occasions (Top Gear interview, Autosport awards) probably confuse people too much to really understand and like him. Every single interview or TV apperance I've seen with him, he comes across as the probably most likeable chap in F1. I really like his humour, his intelligence and the fact that he's able to do without a manager and keeps his private life for himself.

On the other hand, I get the impression that he completely changes when it comes to motorsport and would do literally anything to win and beat his teammate. I like when a driver has respect for others and is always honest, which Vettel obviously isn't. This split personality makes people think, including me.

[Tract1on]

If only he would drive a bit slower then all would be forgiven in my book.

Either that, or amend the 2014 regs:

Article 10.140: Vettel's car must always be 10KG heavier than all rival cars.

Newey to Ferrari would also be fine.

Well we can but hope.........

[Sin]

okay I did something really nerdy right now: I got out my DnD Player manual for the definition of Charisma:

 

it says: Charisma mirrors the strength of personality of a character his convincibilty, his personal attractiveness, his leading qualities and his physical attractiveness. It depicts actually a strong personality and not just how you are seen in a social environment.

 

I think this defines it quite well

Edited by Sin, 25 September 2013 - 13:06.

[P123]

I've no idea.  He presents himself well enough.

[falalalalaland]

Where are the tabloids when you need them? Seb doesn't seem to have paparazzi appeal. From outside of Europe, somehow I get the impression that while Kimi, Nando and Lewis are perceived almost as superstars (ie. likely to get mobbed along the streets if pple knew they were there), Seb despite being the most successful WDC doesn't quite have the same draw. Any Germans in the house feel free to correct me.

 

Then again I don't see why it matters. No charisma doesn't equate to booing. Booing is probably a better reaction than polite coughing/clapping (no offense to di Resta, but this is what will happen if/when he finally gets on the podium), it means that pple actually care that you are standing there.

[discover23]

Vettel can be funny sometimes. His appearance or the David Letterman show was good. He made me laugh.. He is definitely not as boring as Shumi

[undersquare]

Seb definitely has charisma, but I believe the big discrepancy between ruthless on track behaviour/finger etc. and the image he gives when talking on other occasions (Top Gear interview, Autosport awards) probably confuse people too much to really understand and like him. Every single interview or TV apperance I've seen with him, he comes across as the probably most likeable chap in F1. I really like his humour, his intelligence and the fact that he's able to do without a manager and keeps his private life for himself.

On the other hand, I get the impression that he completely changes when it comes to motorsport and would do literally anything to win and beat his teammate. I like when a driver has respect for others and is always honest, which Vettel obviously isn't. This split personality makes people think, including me.

Yeah this gulf between on-track and off-track persona makes me struggle to believe in him.  It gives me the feeling the sweet guy is a bit of a front.

 

I think he'd have more charisma if he was more open about his bastardly side.  Or just more open.  Like in the Multi21 saga he'd have been better to get straight on with the "Sue me I was faster" approach and not do the guilty "Mark deserved it I was wrong" act that he started with.  Charisma isn't about being nice, after all, it's about being interesting, and motorsport fans understand and appreciate a ruthless streak.