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#101 Britophile

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 16:53

I am going to not respond, as I do not want to ruin what would have been a nice a balanced debate between me and Britophile.

 

Britophile - Senna always felt FISA greatly favored Prost, which was ironic given that Prost felt Honda favored Senna. It was flawed logic that the pole sitter would be at a disadvantage, so I can see why Senna was angry and the memory of the incident the year before sent him over the edge, still I am not condoning what he did.

 

Also, Senna had a long standing grudge due to Monaco 1984, where he felt Pros was favored by the system as well.

 

A lot happened between both before Japan 1989 though, from both sides. Prost himself admitted as much, and even took a share of the blame, which is not shocking as he like Senna, was a class act all in all.

 

Monaco in 1984 was a tricky one too, I agree. Ironically if the race would have continued neither Senna nor Prost would have won it. It would have been Stefan Bellof's race all the way.

 

Toleman reported that because of an earlier mistake at the chicane on the waterfront, Senna damaged his suspension which would have forced him to retire in no more than two or three laps time. And the reason why Prost was so slow because he had the very same brake problems that caused Lauda to spun off a few laps earlier. There's no doubt that Senna would have caught him in a lap and there's no doubt that they both would have retired soon afterwards.

 

The reason why the race was red flagged is ironically also because of Bellof and wasn't beacuse of Prost or Balestre. It is a little known fact that Bellof was also driving in the World Sportscar Championship series for Porsche that time and his teammate there was the seasoned veteran Jacky Ickx. Ickx was getting a massive salary for the drive as he was the lead driver of the team. Bellof on the other hand was driving for free, mainly because of his inexperience and also beacuse of contractual reasons as he primarily was a driver for Tyrrell in F1. Ickx was an appointed steward at the Monaco GP in 1984 and he realised that he would lose face massively should Bellof won the race. After all, that rookie teammate of his was driving for free and still he was the one looking to win the prestigious Monaco GP. He was by far the quickest man on that horrendously wet track in a massively underpowered and inferior Tyrrell - he was catching Senna in an even faster rate than Senna was catching the struggling Prost. 

 

So Ickx desperately decided to suddenly red flag the race on lap 31 and in fact he never discussed this move with other stewards or with the FISA representatives before doing so. He acted on his own purely because of personal reasons. Later on he attempted to hide the real motives behind his actions and tried to sell the story in certain circles as by stopping the race he just wanted to be a good sport for his employer, Porsche because that way he could secure the victory for the company as McLaren was powered by TAG-Porsche engines back then. He failed miserably though and Balestre was furious with him. Ickx got his steward license suspended and he also had to pay a fine to FISA. Even months after the race it was a touchy subject in the paddock and as a result Ickx would never have any appearance as an official in a F1 race ever again.



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#102 ensign14

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 17:07

Why would Ickx, who was better than Bellof overall in Porsches, lose face if Bellof won the Monaco GP?



#103 sennafan24

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 19:52

I am out for this one guys, anything pre 1988 that does not involve Senna, Prost, Gilles, Hunt or Mansell, I am clueless.

 

Senna's discontent was over the fact he crossed the line before Prost, yet Prost was handed the win. But yeah there was tons of stuff going on around that incident, the race would have been very different if it would have continued.



#104 Arska

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 05:22

1989 was extremely out of character for Prost - and was surely in part precipitated by Senna's woeful move on the straight at Estoril.

 

Ok, what about Prost squeezing Senna nearly to grass at the start of Estoril, was that ok? Yes, the same race where Senna squeezed Prost near the pitwall.



#105 E.B.

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:37

Ironically if the race would have continued neither Senna nor Prost would have won it. It would have been Stefan Bellof's race all the way.

 

Not for too long it wouldn't. Either way, a full distance race would have given Prost the WDC that year, unless he put it in the wall before the end.



#106 sennafan24

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 14:40

Ok, what about Prost squeezing Senna nearly to grass at the start of Estoril, was that ok? Yes, the same race where Senna squeezed Prost near the pitwall.

I was going to state this, but I feared it would turn into "yeah, but he did this before" and it would go back and forth for ages clogging up the thread

 

Again it was tit for tat between those two for a long time, and in numerous ways.



#107 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 15:21

Apologies if anybody has already mentioned this, but a few of the 'F1 Legends' series are on the 'On Demand' section on Sky. If you through the menus through the following, you'll find them. 'Catch Up' > 'Sky Sports' > 'Sports Vault' > 'Motorsport'.  The 'Formula 1' section on Sports Vault has the highlights of all races this year. Hopefully a few more will appear, ones I've missed in particular, as the winter season rolls on.



#108 sennafan24

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 15:49

Apologies if anybody has already mentioned this, but a few of the 'F1 Legends' series are on the 'On Demand' section on Sky. If you through the menus through the following, you'll find them. 'Catch Up' > 'Sky Sports' > 'Sports Vault' > 'Motorsport'.  The 'Formula 1' section on Sports Vault has the highlights of all races this year. Hopefully a few more will appear, ones I've missed in particular, as the winter season rolls on.

Thanks for the tip  :up:



#109 sennafan24

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 15:51

I do wonder when the J.V and Lauda interviews will be aired. Both greatly interest me.



#110 grandmastashi

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 16:01

I do wonder when the J.V and Lauda interviews will be aired. Both greatly interest me.

 

Was thinking the same thing earlier today, did an F1 Legends search on the planner and the only one listed is Murray Walker... again. 

 

Both being very forthright characters, I anticipate both being very interesting. 



#111 jonpollak

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 21:51

DMN will know...
He's the broadcasting oracle.
Jp

#112 jonpollak

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 21:51

DMN will know...
He's the broadcasting oracle.
Jp

#113 911

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 00:03

Monaco in 1984 was a tricky one too, I agree. Ironically if the race would have continued neither Senna nor Prost would have won it. It would have been Stefan Bellof's race all the way.

 

Toleman reported that because of an earlier mistake at the chicane on the waterfront, Senna damaged his suspension which would have forced him to retire in no more than two or three laps time. And the reason why Prost was so slow because he had the very same brake problems that caused Lauda to spun off a few laps earlier. There's no doubt that Senna would have caught him in a lap and there's no doubt that they both would have retired soon afterwards.

 

The reason why the race was red flagged is ironically also because of Bellof and wasn't beacuse of Prost or Balestre. It is a little known fact that Bellof was also driving in the World Sportscar Championship series for Porsche that time and his teammate there was the seasoned veteran Jacky Ickx. Ickx was getting a massive salary for the drive as he was the lead driver of the team. Bellof on the other hand was driving for free, mainly because of his inexperience and also beacuse of contractual reasons as he primarily was a driver for Tyrrell in F1. Ickx was an appointed steward at the Monaco GP in 1984 and he realised that he would lose face massively should Bellof won the race. After all, that rookie teammate of his was driving for free and still he was the one looking to win the prestigious Monaco GP. He was by far the quickest man on that horrendously wet track in a massively underpowered and inferior Tyrrell - he was catching Senna in an even faster rate than Senna was catching the struggling Prost. 

 

So Ickx desperately decided to suddenly red flag the race on lap 31 and in fact he never discussed this move with other stewards or with the FISA representatives before doing so. He acted on his own purely because of personal reasons. Later on he attempted to hide the real motives behind his actions and tried to sell the story in certain circles as by stopping the race he just wanted to be a good sport for his employer, Porsche because that way he could secure the victory for the company as McLaren was powered by TAG-Porsche engines back then. He failed miserably though and Balestre was furious with him. Ickx got his steward license suspended and he also had to pay a fine to FISA. Even months after the race it was a touchy subject in the paddock and as a result Ickx would never have any appearance as an official in a F1 race ever again.

Kudos to you guys for having a civil and productive dialogue here on these forums.  



#114 sennafan24

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 00:06

Kudos to you guys for having a civil and productive dialogue here on these forums.  

It makes life a lot easier for us all  :up:

 

Britophile is a pleasure to debate with, nothing smarmy or passive aggressive about him to wind people up, very logical with his opinions.


Edited by sennafan24, 09 December 2013 - 00:06.


#115 sennafan24

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 14:10

F1 Legends is back on Sunday, with one of my very favorite drivers Juan Pablo Montoya. Here is a short preview, where he talks about the drivers who impressed him most in his time in F1.

 



#116 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 18:27

Is it really necessary to move every useless drivel over from Racing Comments just because it isn't "current"?? And don't give me the "if you don't like it, don't read it" lecture, I'm sick and tired of seeing what becomes of this place - it used to be great, you know.

#117 milestone 11

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 19:40

 I'm sick and tired of seeing what becomes of this place - it used to be great, you know.

Like the days of fines.?



#118 sennafan24

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 20:32

Is it really necessary to move every useless drivel over from Racing Comments just because it isn't "current"?? And don't give me the "if you don't like it, don't read it" lecture, I'm sick and tired of seeing what becomes of this place - it used to be great, you know.

Can I ask how this is "useless drivel "

 

I am unsure why this got moved over, we discussed the show in the Racing Comments thread all throughout last season.



#119 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 20:47

If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand. Sad to say.

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#120 sennafan24

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 20:50

If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand. Sad to say.

Entertain me

 

This thread existed so users in Racing Comments could talk about the SKY Racing Legends series, I do not see what your problem is with the topic existing.

 

I am not sure why it got moved to this part of the forum, as I do not think it is the sort of thing that gets discussed here. If that is your problem, then fair enough.


Edited by sennafan24, 13 March 2014 - 20:55.


#121 D-Type

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 23:02

Can I ask how this is "useless drivel "?

 

 

I think you have answered your own question when you say:

 

....  I do not think it is the sort of thing that gets discussed here....


#122 sennafan24

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 23:30

I think you have answered your own question when you say:

Fair enough, it is a thread that is more suited to the racing comments section, and I would not start a thread like this in the TNF section. But, Michael Ferner was being a tad condescending dismissing this entire thread as "useless drivel".

 

No harm done though, hopefully the mods will move it back to where it belongs.



#123 Allan Lupton

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 23:34

This thread existed so users in Racing Comments could talk about the SKY Racing Legends series,

so how does it come to be here and not there?

The software downgrade seems to have alienated a number of our regulars already and moving unhelpful threads like this in won't help.

If a mod. has moved it, does than mean it is not a matter which can be discussed?



#124 sennafan24

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 23:54

so how does it come to be here and not there?

 

I am not sure, and from the conversation I had with a mod earlier they are not sure either. There are ways of complaining about things, I would say in regards to this thread it is unsuitable for TNF.

 

Lets just ignore the thread so it drops down and becomes less of a liability, or a mod moves it back to where it came from.



#125 ElDictatore

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 14:40

To get back on topic - I enjoyed the last show with Montoya. Gives a little bit of a more detailed insight why he left too and the politics behind it. Recommendation for everyone basically.