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Talented F1 drivers that never won a world championship.


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#151 DampMongoose

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:33

Reutemann had his chance to be WDC and blew it totally with a head-scratchingly poor performance from pole to a lapped 8th place (even though his team mate won in the other car) gifting Piquet the title.  So did he deserve a world title given he had his chance and didn't take it?  Although you could also argue that had they awarded points for the Kyalami race in 1981 rather than run it is a Formula Libre race with only the FOCA teams playing, he would have won the championship by a couple of points.



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#152 ensign14

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:41

Reutemann blew up mentally in the latter half of 1981.  Title was there for the taking.

 

I'm struggling to see how Reutemann beat Jones at Williams. Jones had 7 wins to 3 (plus a non-title win each), and Jones spent most of 1981 injured for one reason or another.



#153 Tron

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:47

Of some of the drivers mentioned:

 

-Alesi had a fantastic first season, with the pass on Senna and all and had perspectives of becoming the next young champion. A mix of bad luck and poor choices saw him fade progressively. It seems to me that had he really been that talented, he should have been able to win more than 1 GP?

 

-Berger: if Berger had been on the same level of Senna, he would have been able to compete with Senna with the same car. He was thoroughly beaten by him though.

 

-Montoya certainly had rough talent and was able to hold his own against Kimi and take the fight to Schumi, so maybe he does deserve to be on that list.

 

-Frentzen: Meh, did show brilliant pace at times but also was in the wrong places at the wrong times frequently.

 

-Coulthard: Beaten by Mika and Kimi, had the best car for at least 2 seasons and couldn't take advantage of it. Doesn't deserve to be on the list.

 

Again, Alesi retired from 3 to 4 Gp's while leading them in a sluggish Ferrari while on route to certain victory, as happened to him in Benetton as well.

With him was just a bad choice staying at Ferrari then, and then hopping to a fading Benetton abondoned by Brawn and co.

He should have chosen Williams before Ferrari, or after Ferrari, but he was so desperate for wins afterwards, he believed Schumacher's Benetton would still deliever.

 

For the rest, I agree.



#154 Schuttelberg

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:52

To be honest, I feel most people I thought really deserved a championship, won one. At least in my time period of watching F1. (1994-present)

 

I felt Heinz Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard, Rubens Barrichello, Juan Pablo Montoya and Mark Webber were drivers who were untouchable on their day. However, over the length of a championship, they always had weekends where their performances were indifferent. I think they were all deserved race winners because it was hard to look beyond them when they were on it, but very frustrating to watch / be fans of on their indifferent days.

 

I don't think he proved enough while he was in F1, but I really did believe Robert Kubica would be world champion one day. Who knows? It may yet happen. Would be a hell of a movie script I tell you. 



#155 Tron

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:55

 

I don't think he proved enough while he was in F1, but I really did believe Robert Kubica would be world champion one day. Who knows? It may yet happen. Would be a hell of a movie script I tell you. 

 

Rush 2 - The Pole strikes back. :p



#156 Schuttelberg

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 13:02

Rush 2 - The Pole strikes back. :p

 

I do believe Formula 1 needs that kind of romance again, as it's been really long since someone just emerged out of nowhere and gave the fans a little taste of some of that old school racing flavour. Most of the things that have happened in F1 since 2000, have been very stereo type. There's been some epic fails, which if it had worked out, would have been very famous among the masses: eg : Schumacher's comeback ; Massa's comeback ; Kubica's failure to come back as of now ; the nipping in the bud of the Alonso/Hamilton rivalry. 



#157 spacekid

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 14:31

Some interesting discussions in this thread.

 

No one would like more than me to big up Berger as I was a big fan, but the fact is he wasn't F1 champion material.

 

He was good on his day though, and here's a little video that reminds me why I liked him

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KHYH664fIow


Edited by spacekid, 01 October 2013 - 14:32.


#158 DampMongoose

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 14:37

I remember reading in a Senna biography that Ayrton said when they were team mates that "if they were given the choice of £1m or a race win Gerhard would take the money where as he would choose the win"

 

I suppose such thoughts make you wonder about a driver being WDC material...



#159 Tron

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 15:01

Some interesting discussions in this thread.

 

No one would like more than me to big up Berger as I was a big fan, but the fact is he wasn't F1 champion material.

 

He was good on his day though, and here's a little video that reminds me why I liked him

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KHYH664fIow

 

I think on the right day he was only second to Senna and Prost then. In 1989, minus the ridiculous gearbox failures, he nipped some awesome qualifications ahead of Mansell and also kept the Brit at his shoulders on many GP's.



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#160 Tron

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 15:03

I remember reading in a Senna biography that Ayrton said when they were team mates that "if they were given the choice of £1m or a race win Gerhard would take the money where as he would choose the win"

 

I suppose such thoughts make you wonder about a driver being WDC material...

 

Well Gerhard did return to Ferrari for stupid amounts of money where he could have ended up at Williams or a soon to be championship winning Benetton...



#161 DampMongoose

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 15:29

I think on the right day he was only second to Senna and Prost then. In 1989, minus the ridiculous gearbox failures, he nipped some awesome qualifications ahead of Mansell and also kept the Brit at his shoulders on many GP's.

 

Personally, before any race I'd never have rated Berger with a better chance of winning than Senna, Prost or Mansell and sometimes Piquet depending on the equipment.  Given that qualifying doesn't earn points I'd put Mansell better than Berger any day of the week! He took 3 fastest laps to Berger's 1 in '89 in the same car and beat him every time he finished or raced! 

 

A very good driver certainly, but racing at a time with the other 4 mentioned he wasn't a WDC contender in my opinion. 



#162 spacekid

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 15:57

Personally, before any race I'd never have rated Berger with a better chance of winning than Senna, Prost or Mansell and sometimes Piquet depending on the equipment.  Given that qualifying doesn't earn points I'd put Mansell better than Berger any day of the week! He took 3 fastest laps to Berger's 1 in '89 in the same car and beat him every time he finished or raced! 

 

A very good driver certainly, but racing at a time with the other 4 mentioned he wasn't a WDC contender in my opinion. 

 

Agreed. He was also outpaced by Alesi in their stints at Ferrari and Bennetton.

 

However, a fine driver none the less, and more importantly someone with a personality I really warmed too. I miss Gehard, and wish there were a few more in his mold on the grid right now.



#163 DampMongoose

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 16:12

Agreed. He was also outpaced by Alesi in their stints at Ferrari and Bennetton.

 

However, a fine driver none the less, and more importantly someone with a personality I really warmed too. I miss Gehard, and wish there were a few more in his mold on the grid right now.

 

I can't imagine there being any practical jokers like Gerhard in the current crop... I was pleased at the time that he won a race in his final season, and I'm happy that he gave Benetton it's last win when he was also the driver to bring them their first 11 years earlier.



#164 Tron

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 16:46

Personally, before any race I'd never have rated Berger with a better chance of winning than Senna, Prost or Mansell and sometimes Piquet depending on the equipment.  Given that qualifying doesn't earn points I'd put Mansell better than Berger any day of the week! He took 3 fastest laps to Berger's 1 in '89 in the same car and beat him every time he finished or raced! 

 

A very good driver certainly, but racing at a time with the other 4 mentioned he wasn't a WDC contender in my opinion. 

 

Yes and no. In 1989, Berger's Ferrari for whatever unknown reason always broke down before Mansell's, and more than Mansell's, Berger had something stupid like 10 mechanical failures, and the two never finished a race together in that season.

So the fastest's laps can't be used as a comparison.

 

Also Mansell's spectacular Hungarian win was then shaping up when Berger retired ahead of him, and from Monza and onwards, Berger dropped Mansell by almost a third of the field during the race.



#165 Tron

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 16:48

I was pleased at the time that he won a race in his final season, and I'm happy that he gave Benetton it's last win when he was also the driver to bring them their first 11 years earlier.

 

He's also the only man to have ended Ferrari's longest winless spells with a win Japan 1987, and then again in Germany 1994.

 

Quite some records there.



#166 GiancarloF1

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 16:23

So no proof, as expected. Keep on making those claims...

 

Dude, tell me what kinda proof do you want? Everyone who watched the seasons of 2005 and 2006 know perfectly well that Fisi was the one who had been handicapped in the vast majority of the races. Watch Bahrain/San Marino/Spain/Monaco/Europe/France/Germany/Belgium/China of 2005 only, and you might get it.



#167 JtP1

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 16:30

If one has a realistic view on drivers mentioned here. Apart from some of those who's career was cut short by accidents, all have flaws which prevented them from being WDC. Reuteman being a perfect case, as in you have perform every race, not when you feel like it. 



#168 JSDSKI

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 17:13

Montoya was one of my favorite F1 drivers.  But I don't think he had the mental toughness and capacity out of the car to win a WDC.  Inside and driving he was capable of beating anyone on his day and with a good car.  But season long?  Don't think so.

 

Peterson on sheer talent and verve alone... absolutely.  Given his ability to drive around a car's flaws?  That may have been the flaw that would have prevented a championship.  However, given the right car and engineer / designer who might have covered that flaw, then yes.  He could have definately won a WDC.

 

Who of the current crop of "not-yet winners" do you see as a potential WDC?   I vote Hulkenberg. 

 

Of the current group, who has the talent but maybe not the facility?  Grosjean.


Edited by JSDSKI, 02 October 2013 - 17:14.


#169 Tron

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 17:25

Bandini!!!

 

Okay, I never saw him race, but apparently he was one of Italy's hopes to be a then future F1 champion.



#170 wj_gibson

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 20:43

Reutemann had his chance to be WDC and blew it totally with a head-scratchingly poor performance from pole to a lapped 8th place (even though his team mate won in the other car) gifting Piquet the title.  So did he deserve a world title given he had his chance and didn't take it?  Although you could also argue that had they awarded points for the Kyalami race in 1981 rather than run it is a Formula Libre race with only the FOCA teams playing, he would have won the championship by a couple of points.

 

I understand that he lost most of his gears during that race. Although he seemed to give up anyway. Roebuck once wrote that Reutemann had (sub-consciously or otherwise) decided that he didn't really want to be champion.



#171 sennafan24

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 22:54

Montoya was one of my favorite F1 drivers.  But I don't think he had the mental toughness and capacity out of the car to win a WDC.  Inside and driving he was capable of beating anyone on his day and with a good car.  But season long?  Don't think so.

 

 

Agree to an extent, however if a few minor circumstances in 2003 went his way, he would have been Champion in a team where his relationship was far from harmony in Williams. 

 

What JPM needed really was a team built around him, or at least people to put up with his attitude full time.That sounds a lot but consider this, James Hunt won his Championship in a team that put up with him as they knew he had the talent, Lotus put up with Kimi the past 2 years, a man who tells them to "leave him alone" Not every team culture is like Ferrari and McLaren where the team comes first, some teams have been more driver based. Something as a Lewis fan, I hope happen at Mercedes (yes I am a selfish bastard Nico fans)

 

At McLaren, JPM was never going to fit in, with a top-line and thriving driver like Kimi, a demanding schedule on P.R and a expectancy of a certain amount of conformity, JPM was never going to last there retrospect. JPM is one of the few drivers I believe was not afraid of Schumi, as a driver or a person of that era. I think he believed he was/could be as good or better a driver than Schumi, In terms of natural talent, he was not far wrong. Its a shame he did not reach his potential, other than Lewis and Kimi he is the most naturally gifted driver in the past 15-20 years.



#172 repcobrabham

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 22:57

Reutemann had his chance to be WDC and blew it totally with a head-scratchingly poor performance from pole to a lapped 8th place (even though his team mate won in the other car) gifting Piquet the title.  So did he deserve a world title given he had his chance and didn't take it?


this is why MW doesn't belong in this thread - 2010 was his, he only had to finish the races in point-scoring positions but he totally screwed the pooch in korea with one of the lamest crashes ever. WDCs don't choke like that. and I say that as a fan of his!

#173 Andrew Hope

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:11

this is why MW doesn't belong in this thread - 2010 was his, he only had to finish the races in point-scoring positions but he totally screwed the pooch in korea with one of the lamest crashes ever. WDCs don't choke like that. and I say that as a fan of his!

What are you talking about? Plenty of drivers choke like that. A WDC doesn't mean a perfect season, and points count the same in Australia as they do in Brazil. A crash at Melbourne is -25 the same as a crash at Interlagos.

 

EDIT: fixed my moron spelling of everything.


Edited by Andrew Hope, 03 October 2013 - 09:16.


#174 DampMongoose

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:47

 

I understand that he lost most of his gears during that race. Although he seemed to give up anyway. Roebuck once wrote that Reutemann had (sub-consciously or otherwise) decided that he didn't really want to be champion.

 

I thought that in an article with Patrick Head they looked at the car after and found nothing mechanically wrong with it?

 

However, I have more regard for Reutemann's quialities for one other point about that race, he was asked by a younger driver why didn't he crash into Piquet when he overtook him because nobody would know and he'd be World Champion, Carlos replied "I would have known!" 

 

Unfortunately, this attitude didn't rub off on another South American arriving on the scene a couple of years later with his questionable tactics in similar circumstances.