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Is RB using a traction control system?


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#1 Enzoluis

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 21:31

Here

 

http://blog.ilgiorna...dro-mago-newey/

 

Giancarlo Minardi says the behavior of Vettel´s RB is hiding something big. Reading between lines he is suggesting a sort of traction control. A commenter suggest the possibility of the use of the KERS as a traction control system.

 

What do you think?



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#2 clown

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 21:36

I think they're using magic and pixie dust, and I have the same amount of proof that Gian Carlo has of TC.



#3 sennafan24

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 21:41

Whilst I am not going to arrogantly discount the opinion of Minardi like the poster above has done, I am going to answer a swift no.

 

Simply, I do not see why RB would risk cheating at this stage of the year, the title is pretty much wrapped up and new regulations next year mean gains at the end of this year might not be transferable. There is little to gain, and a lot to lose if they got busted.



#4 Tron

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 21:53

There's been doubt over this since Canada, and it's possible.

 

What has to be asked is this - will the FIA keep it hush to not damage the sport's image?

 

Think about it. If Redbull are discovered of cheating "?", then their previous titles will also be brought into question.



#5 apoka

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 21:58

The 2.5 seconds are bit overstated by now I think. Please check here: http://en.mclarenf-1...rg#.UkX-tXgsS1E

 

And take into account that Rosberg had an FW issue after the SC phase costing him a second per lap according to Merc.

 

RB is fast, but I don't think they suddenly found 2 seconds per lap, so the article is not starting from the right premise.


Edited by apoka, 27 September 2013 - 21:58.


#6 MercDan

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 21:58

If it's just clever use of KERS is it actually TC? And if so is it legal and frankly very clever?



#7 DarthWillie

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 22:11

ah, we hadn't had a is RBR cheating thread this year.I don't believe it, haven't seen anything that would point towards that. I'm amazed nobody seems to suspect Ferrari of having an illegal startsystem. The way they start is bizar.



#8 krea

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 22:17

ARTICLE 8: ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS
8.1 Software and electronics inspection:
8.1.1
Prior to the start of each season the complete electrical system on the car must be examined and all on board and communications software must be inspected by the FIA Technical Department.
The FIA must be notified of any changes prior to the Event at which such changes are intended to be implemented.
8.1.2 All re-programmable microprocessors must have a mechanism that allows the FIA to accurately identify the software version loaded.
Acceptable solutions to verify the programmed software may be found in the Appendix to these regulations.
8.1.3 All electronic units containing a programmable device, and which are intended for use at an Event, must be presented to the FIA before each Event in order that they can be identified.
8.1.4 All on-car software versions must be registered with the FIA before use.
8.1.5 The FIA must be able to test the operation of any compulsory electronic safety systems at any time during an Event.

 

http://www.formula1....s/8701/fia.html


Edited by krea, 27 September 2013 - 22:17.


#9 Fastcake

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 22:44

Seems unlikely to me, given that the FIA inspects the spec ECU's every race, and such a thing would surely of been spotted beforehand.

 

 

But there hasn't been a good technical controversy for ages, so I'm game  ;)



#10 Romulan

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 22:51

A commenter commenting about a commenter on a blog.



#11 clown

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 23:03

Whilst I am not going to arrogantly discount the opinion of Minardi like the poster above has done

Actually I was a die hard Minardi fan until the RB buyout, and have great respect for GCM, but he should know better than to publicly make huge accusations of cheating with no proof.



#12 prty

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 23:04

Here in English:

 

http://www.minardi.i...-ukc90dky-dpuf/

 

DOUBT 2: on the same stretch,  Sebastian was able to speed up 50 m before any other driver, Webber included. Whilst all the other drivers speeded up on the same stretch, Vettel was able to speed up before them. The thing that surprised me the most was the RB1 engine’s output sound. Besides speeding up 50 m before any other driver, the Renault engine of the German’s car grinded like no other French engines on track, neither like Mark’s. That sound was similar to the sound made by the engine when the traction control system got into action in the past seasons.

 

here are some aspects (1- Vettel’s very neat way of driving; 2-Vettel’s speedup 50 m before the other drivers; 3- the abnormal sound of the RB1’s Renault engine; 4- Vetter’s more than 2 sec. advantage over the rivals ) that make me think and I would like to have some answers. All those doubts are even more serious if we consider that Webber wasn’t able to do that, since he’s a common human being….I don’t want to blame anyone , I just would like to get into the deep of the matter.

 

Already noticed it in youtube recorded videos, and already since Valencia last year. Probably a Benetton 1994-95 part 2. If so they deserve all the boos they can get.


Edited by prty, 27 September 2013 - 23:06.


#13 JimiKart

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 23:13

Yes, but thanks to marko it's only on Sebs car



#14 undersquare

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 23:24

It won't be cheating, that would be insane, to risk everything when they don't have to.  

 

If it's anything it'll be an interpretation same as last time, when the FIA meant the maximum torque the engine was capable of and Red Bull claimed it meant the maximum torque with the map they were running on the day.

 

It did look as though they'd found something...



#15 Rybo

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 23:26

If I'm not mistaken its been speculated since KERS' introduction that some team were using it to regulate torque to the rear wheels, and to use in the best possible options on the track. 



#16 fabr68

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 23:46

Here you have it. If the last few years has been the era of offthrottle blowing, next year is the start of the bypass traction control era.

Red Bull already has an upfront advantage with Renault

#17 Rybo

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 23:59

Here you have it. If the last few years has been the era of offthrottle blowing, next year is the start of the bypass traction control era.

Red Bull already has an upfront advantage with Renault

 

If anybody will have advantage with either the engine or software it will be Ferrari or Merc. They are the only constructors who are building their own engine. The rest are customers.



#18 prty

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 00:16

Certainly would explain why Red Bull can make the tyres last for so long, though.



#19 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 00:44

I don't think they are using TC. I think RB's advantage comes from their super close work with Renault regarding exhaust maps and the best developed diffuser on the grid bar none. Recent changes/modifications to the RB9 diffuser have certainly helped and the change to older more durable tyres have helped obviously. No TC, they don't need to and it's not worth it. Just my opinion.



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#20 ANF

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 00:49

Yes, yes, they must be cheating. They are getting desperate; Vettel and Red Bull can't afford another unsuccessful season in Formula One.



#21 baddog

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:13

Yeah Vettel's right foot :p



#22 HoldenRT

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:21

I find the thought of this pretty funny.  Even funnier that people talk about Vettel's engine sounding funny but no Webber's.  If this ever ended up being true...... but in the meantime, it's quite funny just to think about it.



#23 eronrules

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:22

wait, didn't we already discuss this a few months back???  :confused:  :confused:

 

 

edit: after a little bit of searching i found those threads  :p

 

Thread title  : Are Red Bull cheating - thread on RB using TC because of this pic

 

BNCLW1NCIAA-lva.jpg

 

 

to bust this myth, read this article by SomersF1

 

Thread title : Red bull launch in Germany - thread on RB using LC due to this radio message

 

 

 

On the way to the grid, Mark's RE said:
'At the start if you get wheel slip hold the throttle.'

 

i didn't include the flexi wing saga threads and red bull using 'x' illegal or 'y' interpretation threads, to keep the insanity at the minimum.  :wave:


Edited by eronrules, 28 September 2013 - 01:33.


#24 fabr68

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:28

Here is a video.   Vettel does not modulate the throttle.  He just pushes the pedal on each corner, the electronics do the rest

 



#25 eronrules

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:35

Here is a video.   Vettel does not modulate the throttle.  He just pushes the pedal on each corner, the electronics do the rest

 

 

i hope you aint serious with your comment .... cause if u are, then i'll recommend you get you're ears checked soon  :smoking:



#26 Enzoluis

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:46

Just an answer to some comments. Minardi didn´t accused RB of cheating. Probably you do not need the ECU to make the system work. The same commenter in that blog  suggested another, explanation. The use of the heat of the KERS to heat the air passing below the car.

Maybe the 2,5" figure is exagarated, but the difference between Vettel and the rest at Spa and Singapore was in the order of a car with double diffuser and a car without it.

The fragility of RB gear boxes make me think that the extraordinary performace was related with them.If not TC what do you think is the reason of the Vettel´s RR performence?



#27 OccasionalCommenter

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:48

So, we have reached stage 3 in the yearly "Vettel's championship train grief". As usual, it follows the classic pattern:

 

  1. Denial - Surely he isn't as good as anyone else, even when he has the best car he is bound to make mistakes and someone better will snatch the title!
  2. Anger - This whiny German bastard doesn't deserve to have the success he is having, this is unacceptable.
  3. Bargaining - The reason he is winning is because he is cheating! Soon FIA will find out, ban him and Red Bull for life and erase all their records from history books.
  4. Depression - There is no hope, this guy will just win race after race year after year.
  5. Acceptance - This stage is actually never reached, as new season always restarts the cycle from beginning. 


#28 Knot

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:53

It's clear RBR are cheating.

 

They've found a way to get hot air from blogs into their diffuser.



#29 Afterburner

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:55


So, we have reached stage 3 in the yearly "Vettel's championship train grief". As usual, it follows the classic pattern:

  • Denial - Surely he isn't as good as anyone else, even when he has the best car he is bound to make mistakes and someone better will snatch the title!
  • Anger - This whiny German bastard doesn't deserve to have the success he is having, this is unacceptable.
  • Bargaining - The reason he is winning is because he is cheating! Soon FIA will find out, ban him and Red Bull for life and erase all their records from history books.
  • Depression - There is no hope, this guy will just win race after race year after year.
  • Acceptance - This stage is actually never reached, as new season always restarts the cycle from beginning.

As someone who loves applying this cycle like a meme/trope, I think this is absolutely brilliant. :up: :rotfl:

#30 Moosed

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:25

JELUS RED BULL HATRES

 

Vettel is just two seconds a lap more awesome and talented than everyone else duhhh



#31 KingTiger

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:35

I wouldn't be surprised if they are using it. Not like the FIA are going to do anything about it. 



#32 icecream

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:43

It's clear RBR are cheating.

 

They've found a way to get hot air from blogs into their diffuser.

:D



#33 LaoTze

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:36

Don't think they are cheating, but they have found something the other teams have not. 

 

It would be ridiculous to think that Vettel would be 2 seconds faster than anyone else on pure pace.

 

I simply do not believe he is that much faster than the likes of Alo Rai Ham Ros.



#34 fabr68

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:51

i hope you aint serious with your comment .... cause if u are, then i'll recommend you get you're ears checked soon  :smoking:

 

Did I say anything about sound?  Re-read my post.  I recommend you get your eyes checked soon.

 

:smoking:



#35 eronrules

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:03

Did I say anything about sound?  Re-read my post.  I recommend you get your eyes checked soon.

 

:smoking:

but you didn't mention that you made your comment based on the digital tachometer. it's normally assumed that throttle modulation is best judged by engine note. also you have to remember the scaling of the gauge, as it's always between 17500-18000 (approx)

 

and then again, the tachometer is always in the reds and the throttle response doesn't necessarily correlates with the rpm change when it's always in the rev limiter, a better judgement of the use of gas pedal can be judged by listening to it, rather watching some fancy digital readout. (IMHO)



#36 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 06:43

Here

 

http://blog.ilgiorna...dro-mago-newey/

 

Giancarlo Minardi says the behavior of Vettel´s RB is hiding something big. Reading between lines he is suggesting a sort of traction control. A commenter suggest the possibility of the use of the KERS as a traction control system.

 

What do you think?

Yes.  They are cheating, Vettel wins due to the car, and the cheating systems are implemented only on Vettel's car, while Webber has a legal car with extra ballast. 



#37 Gorma

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:18

Yes.  They are cheating, Vettel wins due to the car, and the cheating systems are implemented only on Vettel's car, while Webber has a legal car with extra ballast. 

Exactly! Webber's electornics are set in the poor starts-mode, poor qualifying-more, poor races-mode, close the door when someone is overtaking-mode, crybaby comments-mode and act like a child in press conferences-mode.



#38 Raven8

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:23

Here

 

http://blog.ilgiorna...dro-mago-newey/

 

Giancarlo Minardi says the behavior of Vettel´s RB is hiding something big. Reading between lines he is suggesting a sort of traction control. A commenter suggest the possibility of the use of the KERS as a traction control system.

 

What do you think?

It's not the first time it's speculated about that, IMO there is something on the RBR wich helps them enormously with traction



#39 Gyno

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:24

Wouldn't suprise me if they are cheating.

He is on the throttle real early in every corner.

The rear never steps out, not even when going over bumbs so that means the car got super rear end grip.

 

They got something special that Vettel takes full advantage off but Webber cant for some reason.

Might not be cheating, until the rest of the teams finds out about it and looks into it.

 

The FIA is known for letting illegal cars pass.

It's only after the competition noticeses that X team is cheating that the Fia wakes up, but instead of DQ team X from the entire season they just gives them a slap on the wrist.

 

 

 

Barichello said during the Ferrari years that one reason why Schumi was so much faster then him was because schumi nailed the throttle to the floor and trusted TC to take care of it, Barichello never had that trust in the TC and lost out because of that to Schumi.

 

Could be that Vettel trusts their (cheating) system and takes full advantage out of it but webber doesn't.



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#40 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:26

Exactly! Webber's electornics are set in the poor starts-mode, poor qualifying-more, poor races-mode, close the door when someone is overtaking-mode, crybaby comments-mode and act like a child in press conferences-mode.

 

You forget the self destruct button when he is about to finish a race.



#41 Gyno

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:28

Exactly! Webber's electornics are set in the poor starts-mode, poor qualifying-more, poor races-mode, close the door when someone is overtaking-mode, crybaby comments-mode and act like a child in press conferences-mode.

You do know that the driver cant really affect the start mode.

It's all computer controlled these days.

They set the bite point after they do some burnouts and then when waiting for the ligths to go out all the driver does is keep the throttle to the floor and release the clutch.

The rest is computer controlled.

 

So yeah his starts are set in the poor start mode.

Only after he bitched and moaned about this did he finally get proper start mode for 1 or 2 races.



#42 Cyanide

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:41

They are emulating the blown diffuser effect they enjoyed in 2011. 

 

Nothing illegal, and definitely no TC. They're just better at developing the diffuser than the rest. 

 

Since the blown diffuser greatly improves downforce (by more than half a second), they were clearly miles better than the rest at a high-downforce circuit like Singapore. 


Edited by Cyanide, 28 September 2013 - 07:48.


#43 Gorma

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:45

You do know that the driver cant really affect the start mode.

It's all computer controlled these days.

They set the bite point after they do some burnouts and then when waiting for the ligths to go out all the driver does is keep the throttle to the floor and release the clutch.

The rest is computer controlled.

 

So yeah his starts are set in the poor start mode.

Only after he bitched and moaned about this did he finally get proper start mode for 1 or 2 races.

 

No that's how it worked in the launch control days.

 

They have two clutch paddles to control the start.  The first paddle is set where the clutch begins to engage and the second is fully depressed. When the lights change the second paddle is let go so the clutch engages. The other paddle is used to modulate clutch slippage and when the car starts rolling you need to modulate the throttle. You just cannot floor it from the beginning.  

 

When you watch Webber's start it is evident that he just does not know what he is doing. He either lets the clutch go too early or does not give enough give throttle. The car gets off to a slow start and when he notices that he floors the throttle spinning the wheels too much. 

 

a bad start from Mark:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jNBm37wAitg

 

a good start from Mark:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=DSR4nWgGrZc


Edited by Gorma, 28 September 2013 - 07:47.


#44 motorhead

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:50

It´s a bit like saying that Ferrari has a launch control becouse of  their great starts. Oh, sorry in Ferrari´s case it is always the great driver in a lousy car  ;)



#45 BlackScreener

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:51

From F1 Technical:

AMuS source saying RB using sophisticated Renault technology to blow off-throttle via gas pedal(don't know details)
Other Renault powered engines teams don't have access to it!

http://www.auto-moto...ll-7741427.html



#46 Gorma

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:09

Off-throttle via gas pedal? Isn't that an oxymoron.?



#47 sennafan24

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:37

Actually I was a die hard Minardi fan until the RB buyout, and have great respect for GCM, but he should know better than to publicly make huge accusations of cheating with no proof.

He is not really accusing of cheating, just observing what he saw/heard. For all we know what RB are doing could be well within the regulations, but still be reflective of what Minardi said.

 

People are naturally going to assume cheating due to his comments though, even though I think its highly unlikely given the situation and circumstances. I do think Vettel is getting better machinery than Webber, which is mostly justified because due to the Championship implications.



#48 zapppa83

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:38

There's something...no doubt.Maybe legal.. I watch GP's for 25+ years...i'm not stupid.


Edited by zapppa83, 28 September 2013 - 08:44.


#49 zapppa83

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:42

It´s a bit like saying that Ferrari has a launch control becouse of  their great starts. Oh, sorry in Ferrari´s case it is always the great driver in a lousy car  ;)

Why not ?? We are not blind



#50 Tommay

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:47

I don't want to make a conspiracy theory, but isn't it a given that if such advancement was made it would not be put on Mark Webber's car. They've secured the WCC so why would they risk giving such a device to a lose cannon?