995 replies to this topic

[toofast]

You can connect everything to the SECU and then also connect one of them to something else.  You're not exactly an F1 engineer are you? 

 

Tell me one example of this, explain the operation, method of connection. If it is connected to them in one way or another, then it is a component of the system, which mean it has to be controlled by the SECU. I might not be an F1 engineer but at least I pay attention to the wording and working on my comprehension skill.

 

Having said that, I don't disagree that an F1 team might interpret it differently and if that's the case, I strongly believe it is illegal.

[MikeV1987]

I wasn't saying he would use it mid corner, but he would use it on the exit. Vettel seems to always use KERS in 4th gear, that extra boost allows him to have more speed on the straight. Without that boost, he would of had to do spoon more aggressively to try and make up for that loss of speed.

 

@1:29

 

Am I still wrong?

Edited by MikeV1987, 14 October 2013 - 13:41.

[fastwriter]

Absolutely fascinating, this thread: 20 Pages of BS, of conspiracy theories, of bold lies.

 

The desparation in the Vettel-Hatecamp seems to be on an all time high.

Edited by fastwriter, 14 October 2013 - 13:39.

[Mrluke]

Mercedes & Wolff want to match Renaults "engine trickery"

 

Wolff suspects that the top two Renault-powered teams are now streaking away with a clever engine mapping and exhaust-blowing solution.

"If that's the case," Wolff said, "we need to find out why we have missed something.

"We think we know what they're doing. The only question is whether we have the resources to implement something in the last four races.

 

http://www.grandprix...ns/ns26575.html

 

How do Sauber employ clever Renault engine mapping?

 

Theres one thing the RBR Lotus and Sauber have in common, amazing traction and a ramp/tunnel solution to EBD.

[Kelateboy]

Regardless of what they do, if the system includes an "if wheelspin, then reduce torque" feedback loop, then it is illegal. Otherwise, it is not traction control, nor can it actively prevent wheelspin.

 

This is a closed-loop traction system and it is obviously illegal. The command to reduce torque upon the sensors detecting wheelspin must be transmitted to the SECU, and this is where the FIA will catch you if you try this funny trick.

 

Before the introduction of SECU, teams would hide the TC commands into their ECU program which source code ran into millions of lines. Trying to find this TC function in the programme is akin to finding a needle in the haystack.

[garagetinkerer]

Red Bull have history when it comes to breaking the rules. Exhaust-blown diffusers, illegal engine mapping, etc. It would not surprise anyone if they are shown to be a cheater team.

 

And by the way, sorry to state the obvious, but some people seem not to realise that an FIA-approved ECU is not the same as a standardised ECU. The FIA might well have inadvertently approved an ECU which enables some form of quasi-traction-control system.

 

Look at the telemetry in the last few races. Vettel on the power on the exit of slow and medium corners a relative country mile before anyone else. Something isn't right, but it would be too damaging for the sport's reputation for the FIA to delve further. 

 

This reminds me of a story innvolving another German driver... When Michael Schumacher finished second in a race, with only his 5th gear working, no one believed him, including other drivers/ commentators. However, he did do, what he said... the team showed telemetry to prove the same...

 

Now almost 2 decades after the fact, there's another German driver wiping the floor (regardless of the car, Vettel's been doing what any great would!) with most of the talent that you see these days... and there's a lot, make no mistake about it! Schumacher also had to endure a lot then, of course Adelaide didn't help, but it seems Vettel will have to go some more distance before all this will stop. On the other hand, it may well not, as Schumacher still has his fair share of detractors despite of what he managed to achieve... oh well!

[EthanM]

This reminds me of a story innvolving another German driver... When Michael Schumacher finished second in a race, with only his 5th gear working, no one believed him, including other drivers/ commentators. However, he did do, what he said... the team showed telemetry to prove the same...

 

Now almost 2 decades after the fact, there's another German driver wiping the floor (regardless of the car, Vettel's been doing what any great would!) with most of the talent that you see these days... and there's a lot, make no mistake about it! Schumacher also had to endure a lot then, of course Adelaide didn't help, but it seems Vettel will have to go some more distance before all this will stop. On the other hand, it may well not, as Schumacher still has his fair share of detractors despite of what he managed to achieve... oh well!

 

yeah but Schumacher had quality detractors in the fora, like Franz. Vettel just gets pseudo-trolls and Arrow clones. Forget booing, Vettel needs to campaign for better detractors

[Kelateboy]

 

And by the way, sorry to state the obvious, but some people seem not to realise that an FIA-approved ECU is not the same as a standardised ECU. The FIA might well have inadvertently approved an ECU which enables some form of quasi-traction-control system.

 

 

Sorry, but are you aware that all teams are running SECU and not FIA approved ECU nowadays? They used McLaren Electronic Systems' TAG 310B from 2008-2012, and TAG 320 from 2013 onwards.

 

Furthermore, closed-loop traction system is illegal but open-loop traction system is legal.

Edited by Kelateboy, 14 October 2013 - 15:57.

[Kelateboy]

yeah but Schumacher had quality detractors in the fora, like Franz. Vettel just gets pseudo-trolls and Arrow clones. Forget booing, Vettel needs to campaign for better detractors

 

Vettel and RBR need better PR machines. 

[Group B]

yeah but Schumacher had quality detractors in the fora, like Franz. Vettel just gets pseudo-trolls and Arrow clones. Forget booing, Vettel needs to campaign for better detractors

 

There's actually some truth in that; at least Franz, Fortymark and dan2k were entertaining.

[mnmracer]

Vettel and RBR need better PR machines. 

Considering people now already call him a PR robot (and at the same time condemn him for saying not-out-of-the-book things).

People are just full of **** excuses when it comes to anything Vettel does.

[Leatherman]

Vettel and RBR need better PR machines. 

I think VET doesn't help himself sometimes in that regard.  

 

Things you have to remember about VET:

While VET may have had the best car to his advantage over the past, you'd say, 4 years, he's used it well.  

I don't think the team have done anything to help WEB in those years either, so he's clearly been the #1 driver.  

IMO, he'll not get the respect he deserves only driving Newey cars, for no one really knows if it's the car or him.

 

That's my take on it.  He's definitely quick, but most of them are.  I just don't know if he really is as good as the best.

[mtojay]

holy crap.

havent been here a few days. are you guys still discussing this bullshit???      

[MikeV1987]

I think VET doesn't help himself sometimes in that regard.  

 

Things you have to remember about VET:

While VET may have had the best car to his advantage over the past, you'd say, 4 years, he's used it well.  

I don't think the team have done anything to help WEB in those years either, so he's clearly been the #1 driver.  

IMO, he'll not get the respect he deserves only driving Newey cars, for no one really knows if it's the car or him.

 

That's my take on it.  He's definitely quick, but most of them are.  I just don't know if he really is as good as the best.

 

[Gorma]

I think it is time to close this thread...

[mtojay]

I think VET doesn't help himself sometimes in that regard.  

 

Things you have to remember about VET:

While VET may have had the best car to his advantage over the past, you'd say, 4 years, he's used it well.  

I don't think the team have done anything to help WEB in those years either, so he's clearly been the #1 driver.  

IMO, he'll not get the respect he deserves only driving Newey cars, for no one really knows if it's the car or him.

 

That's my take on it.  He's definitely quick, but most of them are.  I just don't know if he really is as good as the best.

 

 

not just that this is a thread about something completely different. what you say has been said in nearly every vettel related thread in this forum. ALL THE TIME. 

and you know what, vettel moves to ferrari one day, you all can be sure of that. he always said that it is his biggest dream. if they have a competetive car, he will challenge for the title in it. thats how formula1 works and how it has worked since the beginning. he is 4 times world champion in a few weeks and nobody can take that aways form him. like it or not, believe he aint fast and tell yourself that all comes down to the car. he is a 4 times world champion. the youngest ever. he will settle down as one of the greats in this sport. your opinions just cant change the truth.

[Jerem]

Regardless of what they do, if the system includes an "if wheelspin, then reduce torque" feedback loop, then it is illegal. Otherwise, it is not traction control, nor can it actively prevent wheelspin.

If there is anything, it cannot be as straightforward as "if wheelspin, then reduce torque", because as you say, it would be ruled illegal, and also Red Bull would not have starts as poor as they had in Suzuka.

 

That's how I see it until someone explains how they switch off the TC for the starts so that idiots like me think they have nothing that has the effects of a traditional TC

 

I've been reading the thread for a while and it's very interesting. I feel that a device that would harvest KERS under acceleration, giving some nice rear grip from exhaust as you slam down the pedal, would be beautiful. I would actually love it if some F1 engineers managed that: it sounds much more clever than a mere double diffuser loophole. Whether RB have this or not, I don't know, but I don't think that would fit the "evidence" people give for TC, namely a *farting sound* (it would fit "accelerating early", though, but so does a mere good traction).

[undersquare]

Tell me one example of this, explain the operation, method of connection. If it is connected to them in one way or another, then it is a component of the system, which mean it has to be controlled by the SECU. I might not be an F1 engineer but at least I pay attention to the wording and working on my comprehension skill.

 

Having said that, I don't disagree that an F1 team might interpret it differently and if that's the case, I strongly believe it is illegal.

Well we don't know do we?  That's my position.  I'm not an F1 engineer either, the only difference between us is that I'm not saying the regs make it impossible.

 

History suggests that Red Bull, or any other team, won't blatantly cheat, it would be crazy.  They would always have some kind of pretext/excuse/interpretation.

 

So IMO we can keep collecting snippets of evidence - Minardi, sounds, Toto quotes, wheelspin moments, whatever, with an open mind.

[JimiKart]

This reminds me of a story innvolving another German driver... When Michael Schumacher finished second in a race, with only his 5th gear working, no one believed him, including other drivers/ commentators. However, he did do, what he said... the team showed telemetry to prove the same...

 

Now almost 2 decades after the fact, there's another German driver wiping the floor (regardless of the car, Vettel's been doing what any great would!) with most of the talent that you see these days... and there's a lot, make no mistake about it! Schumacher also had to endure a lot then, of course Adelaide didn't help, but it seems Vettel will have to go some more distance before all this will stop. On the other hand, it may well not, as Schumacher still has his fair share of detractors despite of what he managed to achieve... oh well!

Not appropriate to play the race card in a discussion of TC, never mind boiling the many drama's that followed MS down to a single "Adelaide" incident which is disingenuous at best.

 

Face it, being German seems to only bother other Germans, the rest of the world are trying to figure out how to copy Seb's advantage and level the playing field, which will be good for the sport.

[undersquare]

I think it is time to close this thread...

It can be fine if people would stop thinking it's about Vettel.

[toofast]

Well we don't know do we?  That's my position.  I'm not an F1 engineer either, the only difference between us is that I'm not saying the regs make it impossible.

 

History suggests that Red Bull, or any other team, won't blatantly cheat, it would be crazy.  They would always have some kind of pretext/excuse/interpretation.

 

So IMO we can keep collecting snippets of evidence - Minardi, sounds, Toto quotes, wheelspin moments, whatever, with an open mind.

 

I'm only talking specifically about your interpretation of the article 8.2.1, which you said does not restrict KERS control to SECU.

 

I totally get your point as some part of the regulation like the DRS control regulation uses "may only" instead of "must" but there are multiple instances of "must be" in the regulation and I don't believe every single one of them is a loophole. If only    they use "may only" instead of "must" we would not have this conversation

 

Imagine this situation, as the rules also refer to all components of engine, why don't we give some degree of controls(your word) of the engine components (e.g. throttle valve actuator)  to another ECU, while giving some to SECU. According to your interpretation this is legal as long SECU involve in some of the controls. My view is that part of the regulation clearly states KERS can only be controlled by SECU.

Edited by toofast, 14 October 2013 - 15:59.

[seahawk]

An open loop traction control would work exactly how? I still think the answer is simple. Ramp exhaust solution - better sealed diffuser - more grip - allows softer suspension - gives more grip - reduces wheelspin - saves tires 

[Group B]

It can be fine if people would stop thinking it's about Vettel.

 

Which they might, if trolls like JimiKart stopped trying to make it about Vettel. As a valid techincal debate, using material such as today's remarks from Mercedes it's a legitimate and interesting subject, but the usual handful of faces are determined to turn it into a prosecution showing that the evil, talentless Vettel is the only one to have this definitely extant, hugely advantageous, illegal gadget and he's using it to single handly ruin F1 and kill babies.

[FenderJaguar]

You don't have to hate Vettel or Red Bull to question why the Red Bull seems to have an edge on the other teams. There have been many great innovations in F1 that wasn't cheating and Red Bull might just have something that isn't cheating. I like Vettel a lot, but the car have some sort of advantage and it is an interesting idea that they might have found a clever way to use KERS. The car behaved different in qualifying without it or maybe he was overdriving it because he lost KERS, but I don't think so. It looked like another car. They are a clever team with something special. Might just bring a few tenths but with such a good driver that is enough.

[Kelateboy]

holy crap.

havent been here a few days. are you guys still discussing this bullshit???      

 

Yes, we are.

 

With several wheel lock-ups experienced by Vettel in Japan during the race, you would have thought that RBR do not know how to design and implement traction control properly. 

[toofast]

Yes, we are.

 

With several wheel lock-ups experienced by Vettel in Japan during the race, you would have thought that RBR do not know how to design and implement traction control properly. 

 

Are you talking about the super secret ABS system? Shhhh, they haven't figure that one out yet!

[garagetinkerer]

I think VET doesn't help himself sometimes in that regard.  

 

Things you have to remember about VET:

While VET may have had the best car to his advantage over the past, you'd say, 4 years, he's used it well.  

I don't think the team have done anything to help WEB in those years either, so he's clearly been the #1 driver.  

IMO, he'll not get the respect he deserves only driving Newey cars, for no one really knows if it's the car or him.

 

That's my take on it.  He's definitely quick, but most of them are.  I just don't know if he really is as good as the best.

 

Do you think Senna was rubbish for he only drove Lotus/ McLaren for most of his career???

[garagetinkerer]

Which they might, if trolls like JimiKart stopped trying to make it about Vettel. As a valid techincal debate, using material such as today's remarks from Mercedes it's a legitimate and interesting subject, but the usual handful of faces are determined to turn it into a prosecution showing that the evil, talentless Vettel is the only one to have this definitely extant, hugely advantageous, illegal gadget and he's using it to single handly ruin F1 and kill babies.

[garagetinkerer]

Not appropriate to play the race card in a discussion of TC, never mind boiling the many drama's that followed MS down to a single "Adelaide" incident which is disingenuous at best.

 

Face it, being German seems to only bother other Germans, the rest of the world are trying to figure out how to copy Seb's advantage and level the playing field, which will be good for the sport.

So... you can't possibly argue with the message, and that is why are you now trying to discredit me? It is a very old trick and i've seen it plenty everywhere... perhaps that may not be your intent so i will try and answer...

 

People have their preferences... to deny it, is to deny human nature. Everybody has bias built in them, some more than others (and i claim to be no exception). Motor racing started as most other sports, with competition between nations... Even after modern GP era began in 50's there were clear lines about who was from where, and you can't argue that. Not unless you want to rewrite history... There's one more thing... while we're at this. If either drove for a "proper" British team (Williams and McLaren, as people seemingly don't realise most teams are based in UK anyways ), they both wouldn't have gotten half as much crap as they did and still do. Like it or lump it, most of the F1 media is British, and as much as media may love them, it is possibly beyond any question that British media would have loved them more if they drove anything "proper" British. Look no further than Senna... he was a jerk (to put it mildly) on track, but media revered him and still does... Look no further than Prost who spoke against the very same team, and media doesn't hold him in much regard.

 

About Adelaide... i was drawing parallels from early part of their (Schumacher and Vettel) respective careers. While his team may have had been involved in many dramas as you put it, but can you point to other incidents where you could hold him guilty (for lack of a better expression...)

[sennafan24]

Look no further than Senna... he was a jerk (to put it mildly) on track, but media revered him and still does... Look no further than Prost who spoke against the very same team, and media doesn't hold him in much regard.

 

On topic - I agree with your general point about bias

 

Off Topic - I slightly disagree with the part I have quoted, the media hated Senna in the late 80's and early 90's, it was only the fans that really liked Senna. Case in point, after Japan 1990, one reporter asked him "why are you such a miserable SOB", the media liked Prost though, he is Nigel Roebucks BFF for example and part of the reason Prost/Senna fell out was that Prost slipped to the media that Ayrton cried in the paddock after a argument with Prost (something Prost admitted himself, but to be fair did regret)

 

The media loves his legend these days because 

 

A. His story makes money

 

B. To appeal to his legions of fans

 

Back On Topic: I am surprised this debate is still going, no other concrete proof as emerged or anything. It seems like a bit of a non-story.

[SamH123]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24511950

 

I don't think people have discussed this, I checked a few pages back.  So if the floor is scraping along the ground more than any other team how come their wear rates aren't too high?

Or has Gary Anderson got the wrong end of the stick?

[undersquare]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24511950

 

I don't think people have discussed this, I checked a few pages back.  So if the floor is scraping along the ground more than any other team how come their wear rates aren't too high?

Or has Gary Anderson got the wrong end of the stick?

I was looking at that hotspot on the tea tray.  I couldn't find another car to compare though.

[Gorma]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24511950

 

I don't think people have discussed this, I checked a few pages back.  So if the floor is scraping along the ground more than any other team how come their wear rates aren't too high?

Or has Gary Anderson got the wrong end of the stick?

So RBR runs with high rake... That's news?

[AustinF1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24511950

 

I don't think people have discussed this, I checked a few pages back.  So if the floor is scraping along the ground more than any other team how come their wear rates aren't too high?

Or has Gary Anderson got the wrong end of the stick?

Here in the states the article is unavailable. Can you give a synopsis?

[ultrapro]

I don't know what's a normal level of plank contact but surely it's quite unusual for there to be that level of contact on a sustained basis. Gary obviously thinks it's news.

If the planks are normally made of a wearing material what could they have there that wouldn't wear down by at least 1mm under that stress for much of a race? I would have thought the friction alone would be a drag on the car as well.

[undersquare]

Here in the states the article is unavailable. Can you give a synopsis?

The rear-facing thermal camera shows Webber's car running the front edge of its bib at 100 degrees C, rubbing on the tarmac.  Gary Anderson also points out the high rear of the floor.  He thinks this is amounts to more rake and downforce than other teams.

[Gilles4Ever]

I can't access the story either but I need to ask,  does it have anything to do with traction control? 

There is link to a Scarbs story about the hot tea tray in the RB9 thread. 

 

http://forums.autosp...2013/?p=6458778

[ThomFi]

Oh look, another bandwagon.

 

http://scarbsf1.com/...-tray-in-korea/

[AustinF1]

The rear-facing thermal camera shows Webber's car running the front edge of its bib at 100 degrees C, rubbing on the tarmac.  Gary Anderson also points out the high rear of the floor.  He thinks this is amounts to more rake and downforce than other teams.

Thanks!

[AustinF1]

I don't know what's a normal level of plank contact but surely it's quite unusual for there to be that level of contact on a sustained basis. Gary obviously thinks it's news.

If the planks are normally made of a wearing material what could they have there that wouldn't wear down by at least 1mm under that stress for much of a race? I would have thought the friction alone would be a drag on the car as well.

Isn't that material uniform across all cars, by rule?

[JimiKart]

Oh look, another bandwagon.

 

http://scarbsf1.com/...-tray-in-korea/

Do we just go straight to Bandwagons and tin foil hats, or is there some middle ground for discussion?

[JimiKart]

So... you can't possibly argue with the message, and that is why are you now trying to discredit me? It is a very old trick and i've seen it plenty everywhere... perhaps that may not be your intent so i will try and answer...

 

 

About Adelaide... i was drawing parallels from early part of their (Schumacher and Vettel) respective careers. While his team may have had been involved in many dramas as you put it, but can you point to other incidents where you could hold him guilty (for lack of a better expression...)

 

Rascasse 2006

Jerez 1997

 

In any case my point was suspecting Vettel of having an unfair advantage does not equate to being anti-German

Edited by JimiKart, 14 October 2013 - 19:20.

[ThomFi]

Do we just go straight to Bandwagons and tin foil hats, or is there some middle ground for discussion?

 

The topic is about traction control and it seems, that some people obviously can't stop beating a dead horse.

[garagetinkerer]

Rascasse 2006

Jerez 1997

 

In any case my point was suspecting Vettel of having an unfair advantage does not equate to being anti-German

Rascasse certainly doesn't figure in early part of Schumacher's career... or did you not read that part of my comment where i mentioned i was drawing parallels from early part of their career?

 

May be not in your case, but you can't unequivocally suggest that there exists nothing of that sort...

[garagetinkerer]

The topic is about traction control and it seems, that some people obviously can't stop beating a dead horse.

It would be something or the other... people just can't seemingly accept that Vettel may be good after all!

[Gilles4Ever]

Even with an attempt at steering the thread it's clear that on topic discussion isn't going to happen.