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Is RB using a traction control system?


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#551 HeadFirst

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 20:05

he must have read this topic ..............what these people believe  :rotfl:  :clap:

So SebVet does have a sense of humour :rotfl:



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#552 JimiKart

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 20:22

RB car is better than the rest, on all level of tweeks...  just face up to it.

 

Problem for Seb, that being the case, is that people will always think it is the car and not the driver.

 

The headline will read Seb Vettel... Champion in a farting car.



#553 Racer3

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 20:26

Reporter:

"How did that go for you, Sebastian--not on top for the first time for a few races?"

 

Vettel:
"Yeah, I think overall pretty happy, we had a solid day I would say, no issues with the car, so...
Surely there is room for improvement ... once we've switched TC on...! :D "

 

You gotta love him...

oh, wait... :lol:

 

 

 

 



#554 ThomFi

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 21:32

no, Lauda said they tested BEFORE singapore not after

 

You are totally right, but people who obviously don't understand German one bit, are now producing stuff like this.

 

http://encurva.com/



#555 toofast

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 02:35

Well, how about wheel sensors that compare rotational speed side to side and front to back, which, when they sense wheelspin in the rear wheels engage and disengage the drive to the KERS unit thereby absorbing some of the power in a similar manner to the way road cars modulate the brakes for stability control. We know that the KERS unit has a powerful braking affect on the rear wheels - No ECU or throttle sensors involved. I'm not saying this is how it is done, or even if it could be done like this, but it seems a possibility...

 

In this case, it must be illegal as this is exactly how real TC works, the only difference is the method how the wheelspin is stopped or reduced (normal TC usually apply brakes or cut back the power), I don't believe FIA will ever allow this. and what about the weird engine sound? Isn't that how people notice the "TC"? 



#556 Kelateboy

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 03:35

Well, how about wheel sensors that compare rotational speed side to side and front to back, which, when they sense wheelspin in the rear wheels engage and disengage the drive to the KERS unit thereby absorbing some of the power in a similar manner to the way road cars modulate the brakes for stability control. We know that the KERS unit has a powerful braking affect on the rear wheels - No ECU or throttle sensors involved. I'm not saying this is how it is done, or even if it could be done like this, but it seems a possibility...

 

Would not such application run foul of the following Technical Regulation?
 
8.2.1 All components of the engine, gearbox, clutch, differential and KERS in addition to all associated actuators must be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been 
manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA.


#557 Bloggsworth

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:42

Would not such application run foul of the following Technical Regulation?
 
8.2.1 All components of the engine, gearbox, clutch, differential and KERS in addition to all associated actuators must be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been 
manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA.


Probably - I was merely suggesting a method by which traction control could be accomplished without involving the actual throttle controls.

#558 baddog

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:08

If the crappy sounding engine is evidence of tc then Webber has it, his engine sounded dreadful on the in-car footage.



#559 Group B

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:57

Vettel admiting they have TC... :p

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ygW82CNPPu0

 

:lol: :up:



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#560 seahawk

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:03

This remark puts the sport into disrespect. Vettel should be banned for the rest of the season.



#561 DarthWillie

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:10

This remark puts the sport into disrespect. Vettel should be banned for the rest of the season.

Omg Vettel makes a joke let's ban him for the rest of the season, damn I even saw him breath, ban him for life.

Meanwhile Hamilton underhand causes him of using illegal systems that's ok. This thread is full of people saying the most horrible nonsense yet you take no offense. Bit sad of you

Edited by DarthWillie, 05 October 2013 - 09:11.


#562 Gecko

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:15

How about the following possibility; it is true that the KERS system is governed by the ECU, but probably only as a complete unit. The power controller for the actual electric motor/generator must be a different piece of hardware.

If I were to use KERS as a semi-legal form of traction control, I would program the controller in a way that alows only a certain maximum rate of RPM increase when KERS is applied. This means that if the wheels spin up too fast, the power controller itself will try and apply a braking torque to counter it, even if the ECU itself gives a signal to the KERS for power to be applied. Similar scenarios can of course also be thought up when KERS is in the braking mode, and the recuperation is dependent not just on RPM but on RPM rates.

I have no idea if any of the above is possible and what the ECU actually monitors and controls, I just wanted to share the idea.

#563 Bloggsworth

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:04

How about the following possibility; it is true that the KERS system is governed by the ECU, but probably only as a complete unit. The power controller for the actual electric motor/generator must be a different piece of hardware.

If I were to use KERS as a semi-legal form of traction control, I would program the controller in a way that alows only a certain maximum rate of RPM increase when KERS is applied. This means that if the wheels spin up too fast, the power controller itself will try and apply a braking torque to counter it, even if the ECU itself gives a signal to the KERS for power to be applied. Similar scenarios can of course also be thought up when KERS is in the braking mode, and the recuperation is dependent not just on RPM but on RPM rates.

I have no idea if any of the above is possible and what the ECU actually monitors and controls, I just wanted to share the idea.


The KERS unit could not be used to apply the power as it might go over the percentage allowed, but it could be used to "intermittently recharge" thus absorbing power - We know that on some circuits the KERS unit has difficulty fully recharging owing to too few braking events, so absorbing power during the acceleration phase might be additionally useful.

#564 superdelphinus

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:37

Omg Vettel makes a joke let's ban him for the rest of the season, damn I even saw him breath, ban him for life.

Meanwhile Hamilton underhand causes him of using illegal systems that's ok. This thread is full of people saying the most horrible nonsense yet you take no offense. Bit sad of you


Wow

#565 Melchiot

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:41

Omg Vettel makes a joke let's ban him for the rest of the season, damn I even saw him breath, ban him for life.

Meanwhile Hamilton underhand causes him of using illegal systems that's ok. This thread is full of people saying the most horrible nonsense yet you take no offense. Bit sad of you

 

pretty sure that was tongue in cheek



#566 Racer3

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:52

pretty sure that was tongue in cheek

 

You haven't been around long enough, obviously  ;)



#567 Bloggsworth

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 13:18

Is there anything in the rules which limits when you can and when you cannot harvest KERS?

Edited by Bloggsworth, 05 October 2013 - 13:20.


#568 DarthWillie

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 14:21

pretty sure that was tongue in cheek


Very sure it wasn't

#569 matador1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 14:25

They are clearly exploiting the rules to gain a huge advantage and have been for 4 years now. Its sad that they have been allowed to get away with it as I doubt they are so smart that nobody in the paddock can do it, even though Newey is a genius, after so many years of stable rules the rest usually catch up or get very close. Hoepfully next year this is finally stopped and we have an equal playing field.



#570 skyfolker

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 02:35

Funny how Chandhok emphasizes "great traction out of the corners" and "no wheelspin":

http://www1.skysport...'s-perfect-pole

 

 



#571 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 03:08

Is there anything in the rules which limits when you can and when you cannot harvest KERS?

 

The only time when KERS harvesting is not allowed is when the car is stationary during a pitstop as it would violate Article 5.2.4 of Technical Regulations.

 

Other than that, it is fair game when to harvest the energy - the easiest being under braking.



#572 Winter98

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 03:18

They are clearly exploiting the rules to gain a huge advantage and have been for 4 years now. Its sad that they have been allowed to get away with it as I doubt they are so smart that nobody in the paddock can do it, even though Newey is a genius, after so many years of stable rules the rest usually catch up or get very close. Hoepfully next year this is finally stopped and we have an equal playing field.

Really?  Awesome!

 

You have to give  SV credit.  Who would have thought a 22 year old driver could convince a F1 race team, and Bernie, to let him cheat for four consecutive years.

 

I thought 4xWDCs was amazing.  This is waaayyyyy cooler!   Brilliant Seb!



#573 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 03:30

They are clearly exploiting the rules to gain a huge advantage and have been for 4 years now. Its sad that they have been allowed to get away with it as I doubt they are so smart that nobody in the paddock can do it, even though Newey is a genius, after so many years of stable rules the rest usually catch up or get very close. Hoepfully next year this is finally stopped and we have an equal playing field.

 

Open loop system and cylinder deactivation are permitted under the current Technical regulations. That is why you don't see teams with actual knowledge of F1 rules go running to Charlie Whiting complaining about RBR's supposed "exploitation" of the rules.



#574 V3TT3L

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:22

It seems that Sauber is using TC on a Ferrari engine.  :eek:

 

The way Hulk was able to pull an advantage on Turn1 over Lewis/Alonso was impressive   ;)



#575 fabr68

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:25

The headline will read Seb Vettel... Champion in a farting car.

 

For a minute I read, "Champion farting in a car"

 

:lol:



#576 Longtimefan

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:14

I have no idea what they are using but i'm beginning to think theres something iffy about that car.

 

Nobody is denying Seb is a great driver but the way he pulls 2s at the starts/restarts.. something is fishy.



#577 DanardiF1

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:26

I have no idea what they are using but i'm beginning to think theres something iffy about that car.

 

Nobody is denying Seb is a great driver but the way he pulls 2s at the starts/restarts.. something is fishy.

 

It's taken you how many years to realise this!?! :p



#578 joora

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:45

I have no idea what they are using but i'm beginning to think theres something iffy about that car.

 

Nobody is denying Seb is a great driver but the way he pulls 2s at the starts/restarts.. something is fishy.

 

The best part is that they keep playing the "we're not that far ahead" card, but every time things get exciting, Vettel simply puts 5+ seconds advantage in a couple of laps. While Vettel is a great driver, putting that kind of performance on demand is ridiculous, especially as other teams are unable to get nowhere near (except Mercedes on some occasions). 



#579 baddog

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:53

How could it possibly explained?? We can of course dismiss the idea that Adrian Newey has come up with a superb interpretation of the rules, and that Vettel is just driving it perfectly. Thats too silly. It must be TC or space lasers or something.



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#580 MikeV1987

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:02

This remark puts the sport into disrespect. Vettel should be banned for the rest of the season.

Not sure if serious.  :drunk:



#581 redreni

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:09

Open loop system and cylinder deactivation are permitted under the current Technical regulations. That is why you don't see teams with actual knowledge of F1 rules go running to Charlie Whiting complaining about RBR's supposed "exploitation" of the rules.


Not if the effect of the system is to compensate for a heavy right foot (i.e. excessive torque demanded by the driver). Charlie Whiting may have written to the teams saying he thinks this is okay, but if the operation of this system is anything like the speculation on here, then Whiting is wrong. I can only assume Red Bull do not have such a system. If they do, the non-Renault teams should have protested this earlier and challenged Whiting‘s interpretation.

However, if the system relies on KERS and engine mapping, it‘s too late to challenge it now. Even if Red Bull lose and aren‘t allowed to use the system any more, and even if they llse a load of performance as a result, they still can‘t possibly lose the title.

#582 bourbon

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:10

The best part is that they keep playing the "we're not that far ahead" card, but every time things get exciting, Vettel simply puts 5+ seconds advantage in a couple of laps. While Vettel is a great driver, putting that kind of performance on demand is ridiculous, especially as other teams are unable to get nowhere near (except Mercedes on some occasions). 

 

Damn straight they can pull it out.  It is a brilliant team with a brilliant driver. 

 

When did they say "we're not that far ahead"?  I think you made that up.  They said they didn't have as big of an advantage in Korea as they did in Singapore - not that they had no advantage at all.  But they have never played down their achievements.  Why should they?  They have done a fantastic job and they have worked very hard to get where they are.  The other teams need to work harder and catch up. 

 

RBR tell us their problems like all other teams - just because one may believe them ignorable doesn't mean they should cease to share them.  There are those of us who appreciate the difficulties they face and it makes the weekend all the more sweeter when their hard work to correct those issues - and to put out the best man-machine combinations possible - results in success.

 

The accusations of traction control have failed to bring any to light. There are no secret systems, merely a team working very hard, pushing the limits (like all other teams) and doing the best job at the moment.  Let them have their moment in the sun as others have had...



#583 DanardiF1

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:20

How could it possibly explained?? We can of course dismiss the idea that Adrian Newey has come up with a superb interpretation of the rules, and that Vettel is just driving it perfectly. Thats too silly. It must be TC or space lasers or something.

 

I think it's natural to question how one person (and his team of designers and engineers) can continue to have a significant advantage over the rest of the field... for over 20 years. I was 2 years old when Newey moved from Leyton House to Williams, and his cars have been at the front of the grid ever since. How many billions have been spent in just trying to beat this guy?

 

And I think there's always been suspicions over the legality of some of his cars, and other than trawling through the net to find instances, I think it could even stem from the 'modifications' made to Senna's Williams when he passed away. The Italian media in particular (and with Ferrari being Newey's main rival since it would make sense for them to continue to eke out the story) have always been ones to jump on any odd things about his cars, and that was one of the more 'scandalous' (for the media anyway) aspects of the Italian court case. The McLaren fiddle brake then started a new thread of suspicion, which has kept up since. Likewise I'm sure there were mutterings about why the MP4-18 never quite made it to the track.

 

I do think there's something iffy about the Red Bull cars, and that's because there have been too many instances of the FIA finding something only to then tell them 'change it for the next race'. They have been scared to throw out the leading cars on legality issues since Benetton 'proved' they never used the TC built into their 94 cars, because of the possible ramifications legally and for their image in the media. They don't want to ruffle the feathers of one of the major investors in the sport (Red Bull) and then look bad if they get outsmarted in court.



#584 Shambolic

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:31

 Benetton 'proved' they never used the TC built into their 94 cars

 

Mainly through it not being present.

 

They did prove to have not used the built in launch control though.

 

I'm convinced Red Bull have something questionable on their car. As should every other team, if they're trying hard enough. Red Bull have just worked out how to strain the rules as far as possible without either breaking them or being caught, and they have a good enough driver to make the most of the envelope pushing.

 

I'm tempted to suggest Red Bull also only push to that extent with one car. Not to make the other driver look bad, but to reduce the "evidence" that could lead to a more thorough prying of eyes over their "We think it's legal, but it's definitely very grey" designs.



#585 V3TT3L

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:32

TC is not for everyone  :o

 

Just look at Mercedes engine map settings. They deactivated too many cylinders in Lewis' car and he couldn't overtake a Sauber  :p

 

Leave it to the pros  :o



#586 baddog

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:34

I think it's natural to question how one person (and his team of designers and engineers) can continue to have a significant advantage over the rest of the field... for over 20 years. 

 

One could if that had happened. However other designers and teams have come along and whupped his ass on many many occasions. Newey makes some great cars, but because he tends to go for quite aggressive approaches all round, sometimes his ideas dont come off and sometimes they are huge successes. That isnt that odd if you take the time to think about it.



#587 bourbon

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:34

I think it's natural to question how one person (and his team of designers and engineers) can continue to have a significant advantage over the rest of the field... for over 20 years.

 

That is just false, hyperbole, imo.  How the heck do you have significant advantage and lose?  Which is what Newey (and his teams and engineers - and HEAD engineers) did for many years.  During 2000 to 2004 the "significant advantage" was clearly elsewhere for a span of time.  You can't just state things and hope they will ring true when they are so feverishly off the mark.

 

Newey and RBR and the engine and the drivers are doing a brilliant job born of hard work.  It is the others (still lurking around F1) who have actually been caught Red Handed cheating - as recently as this season.  So maybe your perioscope needs redirected.



#588 DanardiF1

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:54

That is just false, hyperbole, imo.  How the heck do you have significant advantage and lose?  Which is what Newey (and his teams and engineers - and HEAD engineers) did for many years.  During 2000 to 2004 the "significant advantage" was clearly elsewhere for a span of time.  You can't just state things and hope they will ring true when they are so feverishly off the mark.

 

Newey and RBR and the engine and the drivers are doing a brilliant job born of hard work.  It is the others (still lurking around F1) who have actually been caught Red Handed cheating - as recently as this season.  So maybe your perioscope needs redirected.

 

Championships in 1992, 93, 94, 96, 97 (car was his design), 98, 99, 2010, 11, 12, 13 would suggest that for the bulk of his career this would be true. Only some dodgy Mercedes engines halted any additions in the Schumacher era (2003 and 2005 particularly), and 3 years building up the Red Bull tech department put a stop to any major success there (although his designs still won several races in that time too).

 

The 'significant advantage' wasn't in his hands in 2000-04 yes, but 5 seasons out of 20+ isn't bad is it... 11 championship winning seasons out of 23.

 

Also, have I said he was a cheat. No. I was actually trying to suggest that for the bulk of his career Newey has been subject to an agenda largely from the Italian media to discredit his work. The current Red Bull cars are aerodynamically superior to all others on the grid, but it is the frequent technical 'clarifications' his cars have had over the last 4 seasons that have renewed suspicions outside those with a clear agenda against him.



#589 Group B

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 21:23

How could it possibly explained?? We can of course dismiss the idea that Adrian Newey has come up with a superb interpretation of the rules, and that Vettel is just driving it perfectly. Thats too silly. It must be TC or space lasers or something.

 

I can easily understand the suspicions, but there's lots of very clever men in other teams looking very closely, not to mention the FIA, and so far we've had nothing resembling a serious accusation or complaint. Webber's another conspiracy killer; he's hardly on great terms with several big names at at RB, so could easily be at risk of blabbing come December, and the chances of having some uber TC device on Vettel's car only without him noticing are miniscule. Seems to me the simplest explanation is the right one; brilliant designer producing fantastic car driven by excellent driver at the peak of his powers. Could Fred, Lewis or one or two others do the same? Yes, very probably, but that doesn't mean it's easy.



#590 Ellios

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 21:32

Championships in 1992, 93, 94, 96, 97 (car was his design), 98, 99, 2010, 11, 12, 13 would suggest that for the bulk of his career this would be true. Only some dodgy Mercedes engines halted any additions in the Schumacher era (2003 and 2005 particularly), and 3 years building up the Red Bull tech department put a stop to any major success there (although his designs still won several races in that time too).

 

The 'significant advantage' wasn't in his hands in 2000-04 yes, but 5 seasons out of 20+ isn't bad is it... 11 championship winning seasons out of 23.

 

Also, have I said he was a cheat. No. I was actually trying to suggest that for the bulk of his career Newey has been subject to an agenda largely from the Italian media to discredit his work. The current Red Bull cars are aerodynamically superior to all others on the grid, but it is the frequent technical 'clarifications' his cars have had over the last 4 seasons that have renewed suspicions outside those with a clear agenda against him.

 

What was it Enzo Ferrari used to call the British 'Garage'istas' ? I know Mika Häkkinen said when Newey joined McLaren the car improved in every area. Right time right place for Häkkinen, same for Vettel



#591 V3TT3L

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 21:38

WOW... that's rich.

 

Ferrari came with a Drag Racin interpretation with Rocket Starting Launch Clutch and BIg heavy KERS. Weakness: Still bad traction out of slow curves.

 

RB came to the competition with a Econo-Engine, Fuel weight saving and Light KERS. Weakness: Top Speed issues [solved].

 

Newey had the best project right from the start.


Edited by V3TT3L, 06 October 2013 - 21:41.


#592 mnmracer

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 21:42

Yet for some reason, when Alonso had the chance to work with this 'guaranteed championship designer', he denied...



#593 TimRTC

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 21:45

Funny. Everyone complains when the new tyre rules meam that drivers cannot push to the limit, but when designers and engineers push then it is against the spirit of the sport...

#594 ThomFi

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:43

According to Sauber's Head of Track Engineering McCullough, they (Sauber) have clearly more down force at the rear and can run higher rake which improves traction, since they went back to last years exhaust solution (exhaust ramp).

 

Dazu McCullough: "Seit wir auf das letztjährige Auspuffprinzip zurückgegangen sind, haben wir im Heck deutlich mehr Abtrieb und können mit Bodenfreiheiten fahren, die der Traktion helfen."

http://www.auto-moto...ng-7777706.html

 

And Red Bull's exhaust ramp solution in combination with Renault engine maps  is surely more advanced  than that.


Edited by ThomFi, 07 October 2013 - 03:34.


#595 Kelateboy

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:35

I think it's natural to question how one person (and his team of designers and engineers) can continue to have a significant advantage over the rest of the field... for over 20 years. I was 2 years old when Newey moved from Leyton House to Williams, and his cars have been at the front of the grid ever since. How many billions have been spent in just trying to beat this guy?

 

Newey did not seem to have that advantage going against Ferrari and Rory Byrne in the early 2000s, but I am sure you would put that down to Bridgestone and unlimited testing enjoyed by Ferrari back then.

 

Newey did not win a single WCC from 1999-2009. In that 11 year period, Rory Byrne had 6 WCCs going head to head with the maestro. So, as good as Newey is, he is beatable given the right circumstances and environment.



#596 Kelateboy

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:30

However, if the system relies on KERS and engine mapping, it‘s too late to challenge it now. Even if Red Bull lose and aren‘t allowed to use the system any more, and even if they llse a load of performance as a result, they still can‘t possibly lose the title.

 

The two titles are beyond anybody's reach, so it is a moot point to challenge the systems that nobody really knows how they function. Furthermore, the use of standard ECU will make it near impossible to mask any traction system, if it is being employed on RBR cars.

 

My feeling is that RBR is using a combination of torque mapping and cylinder deactivation, which is completely legal under the current regulations. This is an open system and may not work for all circumstances mainly because the use of torque mapping nowadays are highly regulated and could not be tailored from one circuit to another. Cutting down on cylinders are used by everybody including Mercedes on their engine braking system, so this is not a concept specifics to Renault Sports and RBR only. It is possible that RBR and Renault Sports utilize and improvise this system better than anybody, after years of experimenting with them. We know they are the pioneer in engine mapping and they used different maps for qualifying and the race back in 2011 before FIA made this practice illegal. They also tailored their maps to individual circuits which the FIA clamped down on this practice in Germany last year. It is possible that they have found a new way to mimic traction control through the use of innovative torque maps and cylinder deactivation.



#597 seahawk

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:41

Not sure if serious.  :drunk:

 

Not serious, but it surely shows the problem F1 is causing for itself with that speculation. For those who do not follow F1 closely, Vettel´s remarks might be understood as an open confession of using illegal means. In the end this rumours damage the sport. Either protest or shut up, should be the norm in F1.

 

And since we have seen the traction of the Sauber, people should finally put the rumors to rest. Obviously you can improve the traction of a car by a lot. So maybe the RBR is really the best compromise between aero and mechanical grip. It has been for years, so why should one not give them credit for a job perfectly done? (and consider that they were godlike in 2012 as well - and the tires are basically the same again...)



#598 Group B

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:14

:up:



#599 DrF

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:18

Indeed. Red Bull has found a way to run their cars with massive amounts of Rake. Couple this with significant aero innovation, a hardworking team, good strategy, talented driver, etc. And you have a winning combination. Spiteful rumours like the latest one are an insult to all the people who work their butts off to get that car to work so well.

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#600 e34

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:21

The strange thing is that, apparently, nobody knows exactly what's the reason behind RBR dominance. Neither McLaren nor Ferrari (just to mention the strongest competitors RBR has) have been able to explain, let alone replicate, RBR performance. And IMO, therein lies the reason for the alleged trickery. If it was something easily identifiable, other teams would copy it or protest it. As things are, they are just throwing theories, whether the adjustable ride height of several years ago, or the traction control of this year, because they really have no idea about what's going on. 

 

That, combined with the fact that they seem to use that advantage sparingly (when they are on front, they open the gap at will) may somehow justify the rumours that there is something illicit on RBR cars. 

 

I, for one, would really like to know how they have been able to keep their advantage throughout this F1 era; not now, but in some years time, when that advantage no longer matters.