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Is RB using a traction control system?


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#651 EthanM

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:59

On a more philosophical level regarding traction, before anyone starts talking about TC they need to define well what it is. Is improving your engine and power delivery to make it as smooth as possible and improve traction, traction control?

 

as per the FIA:

 

a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver



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#652 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:01

http://www.nextgen-a...tion,67596.html

Newey, meanwhile, played down the link between Red Bull’s KERS system and its superior traction.

"I doubt the gain is from KERS," he is quoted by Racecar Engineering.

"We, like everyone, do work on how to best deploy it, but I think everyone is similar in how they use it," added Newey.

Hmmm, I can't help thinking this is something that Newey would know about and not need to 'doubt' or 'think'.

 

It could have been a flat denial, surely?  But it wasn't.

 

And I do feel the attractions of an electric motor in the drivetrain, for torque control, must be irresistible.



#653 EthanM

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:04

Hmmm, I can't help thinking this is something that Newey would know about and not need to 'doubt' or 'think'.

 

It could have been a flat denial, surely?  But it wasn't.

 

And I do feel the attractions of an electric motor in the drivetrain, for torque control, must be irresistible.

 

why would he flatly deny it? He has fresh experience of sending both McLaren and Ferrari on a wild goose chase for "bendy" wings and wasting them 3 months of development time



#654 GlenP

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:07

I reckon there are some very good explanations in this thread. Being able to run the car softer because of superior aero is one. The lateral thinking idea of "harvesting" KERS under drive and not just braking is another. Aggregate those ideas with a driver that knows exactly how to get the best out of it all and no further explanation is needed. Vettel still needs to drive faultlessly to make it all come together, I might add.



#655 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:08

as per the FIA:

 

a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver

Yes exactly.  So if there is electrical torque management in the drivetrain then the driver can be said not to be demanding excessive torque, can't he?   ;) .  He asks for say 5%, 10% more or whatever but It is no longer 'excessive'.

 

And it would not absolutely prevent the wheels spinning...

 

So it is quite arguable enough for a classic Red Bull gambit.



#656 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:09

Ok, how about don't call it TC... it's:

 

KERS smoothing. 

 

Back emf ripple buffering.

 

Hysteresis offset.

 

 

See?  Nice and legal, no ECU required.   Heck, this is maybe even required to "help" the ECU read the data input...

 

 

/ fun

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#657 EvanRainer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:09

as per the FIA:

 

a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver

 

Indeed, it has to do with compensating for excessive torque. So, theoretically, improving your engine or creating a power delivery system where excessive torque demand never occurs, would not be TC by this definition.



#658 EthanM

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:13

Yes exactly.  So if there is electrical torque management in the drivetrain then the driver can be said not to be demanding excessive torque, can't he?   ;) .  He asks for say 5%, 10% more or whatever but It is no longer 'excessive'.

 

And it would not absolutely prevent the wheels spinning...

 

So it is quite arguable enough for a classic Red Bull gambit.

 

 

what they are doing is pretty simple. They floor the throttle mid corner, that energizes the flow around the diffuser and effectively sucks the rear end to the ground (here is where the exhaust design comes into play), but the engine is only delivering half the torque (cause it's running on 4 cylinders). Net it gives them a traction advantage

 

you will spend months looking for super exotic materials a la bendy wings and obscure uses for Red Bull's half power, super fragile, can't last 3 laps in traffic cause it overheats and fails KERS system, but in the end the explanation will be the simple one.



#659 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:15

why would he flatly deny it? He has fresh experience of sending both McLaren and Ferrari on a wild goose chase for "bendy" wings and wasting them 3 months of development time

Oh I don't think this is a wild goose chase.  It has nothing to do with wings.  There is an electric motor in the drivetrain  :eek: .  Instant torque, forwards or reverse.  Electric, in every sense.



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#660 maverick69

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:17

Ok, how about don't call it TC... it's:

 

KERS smoothing. 

 

Back emf ripple buffering.

 

Hysteresis offset.

 

 

See?  Nice and legal, no ECU required.   Heck, this is maybe even required to "help" the ECU read the data input...

 

 

/ fun

Agreed.

 

Like a said at the beginning: "Traction Control" is a very broad term.



#661 fastwriter

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:21

But the worst thing for all conspiracy theorists in here: It is absolutly within the rules. So call it as you want, but stop the ranting about "illegal TC" used on Red Bulls Cars, or I'll start a topic: "Ferrari is using illegal launch control". And I have at least as much proof as you have about the TC thing: Absolutely none



#662 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:22

what they are doing is pretty simple. They floor the throttle mid corner, that energizes the flow around the diffuser and effectively sucks the rear end to the ground (here is where the exhaust design comes into play), but the engine is only delivering half the torque (cause it's running on 4 cylinders). Net it gives them a traction advantage

 

you will spend months looking for super exotic materials a la bendy wings and obscure uses for Red Bull's half power, super fragile, can't last 3 laps in traffic cause it overheats and fails KERS system, but in the end the explanation will be the simple one.

Lol, I love your certainty that you know everything they're doing  :D

 

But they can do all that (tho isn't it more sealing the diffuser these days?), AND other stuff too.



#663 EthanM

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:25

Lol, I love your certainty that you know everything they're doing  :D

 

But they can do all that (tho isn't it more sealing the diffuser these days?), AND other stuff too.

 

well I pay attention, and I have a subscription thatgives onboards with live sound and without annoying commentators covering up everything.

Plus they have no reason to cheat (or even be borderline legal) when they have two championships in the bag. You think they don't know that the FIA will jump at any chance to "liven up" the championship?



#664 EvanRainer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:29

well I pay attention, and I have a subscription thatgives onboards with live sound and without annoying commentators covering up everything.

Plus they have no reason to cheat (or even be borderline legal) when they have two championships in the bag. You think they don't know that the FIA will jump at any chance to "liven up" the championship?

 

There is no indication that they are "cheating". On the other hand, there is every indication that they are leaders in almost every technological area.So nothing really strange about the results.



#665 seahawk

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:31

The problem is the ECU should monitor charge and dicharage phases of the KERS battery. So it should easy to see if they charge under throttle or not.  



#666 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:32

well I pay attention, and I have a subscription thatgives onboards with live sound and without annoying commentators covering up everything.

Plus they have no reason to cheat (or even be borderline legal) when they have two championships in the bag. You think they don't know that the FIA will jump at any chance to "liven up" the championship?

Oh they're not cheating, absolutely agree, it would be insane as you say. But they have found something I think, recently.  Something they can defend, but that other teams don't have.  They have history, after all.



#667 JohnnySchwaffel

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:39

At least they have a traction control-like system.

 

And if the others don't have it, they must be smarter and work harder than then rest or something..... or of course simple cheating could still be the answer. I like the thought of them cheating, makes everything so much simpler.



#668 mtojay

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:07

Oh they're not cheating, absolutely agree, it would be insane as you say. But they have found something I think, recently.  Something they can defend, but that other teams don't have.  They have history, after all.

 

sauber seems to have it ;-)



#669 Higli

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:15

But they have found something I think, recently.  Something they can defend, but that other teams don't have.

 

Isn't this what Formula One is all about?



#670 GlenP

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:32

The problem is the ECU should monitor charge and dicharage phases of the KERS battery. So it should easy to see if they charge under throttle or not.  

It may well - but I don't think it is illegal to charge under throttle - it is just counter-intuititve/lateral thinking.

 

When KERS was first proposed I speculated that the teams might be able to hide rear anti-lock in the KERS harvesting software, under the guise of smoothing the harvesting. Most (wel, all as far as I remember) forum members seemed to think that a crazy idea - it doesn't sound so crazy now!



#671 seahawk

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:39

Well I am quite certain that the technical regulations (especially considering the ones about linear throttle input) would make it very easy to "clarify" the use of KERS charging under certain load situations under throttle.



#672 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:48

Isn't this what Formula One is all about?

yes



#673 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:55

Well I am quite certain that the technical regulations (especially considering the ones about linear throttle input) would make it very easy to "clarify" the use of KERS charging under certain load situations under throttle.

Well the throttle is being bypassed, if it's kers-based.  It'll most likely be something where even one word can be taken a different way from how most people read it, like Merc spotting that a test could be "organised" (or whatever the word was) by Pirelli not themselves, or Red Bull spotting that "maximum torque" could be maximum on the day rather than maximum in an earlier configuration.



#674 EvanRainer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:38

Well the throttle is being bypassed, if it's kers-based.  It'll most likely be something where even one word can be taken a different way from how most people read it, like Merc spotting that a test could be "organised" (or whatever the word was) by Pirelli not themselves, or Red Bull spotting that "maximum torque" could be maximum on the day rather than maximum in an earlier configuration.

Why are you so convinced that there just must be some kind of trick they are using? (in stead of say, simply having better traction through downforce/aero efficiency overall)



#675 EvanRainer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:44

Regarding KERS use under throttle, IMO if it was used in a way where it kicked in only when excessive torque or spinning was detected, then yeah that would be TC. If it is applied more consistently as part of the engine setting to smooth power delivery then it's just smart.



#676 goingthedistance

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:46

Why are you so convinced that there just must be some kind of trick they are using? (in stead of say, simply having better traction through downforce/aero efficiency overall)

 

Because what Newey does best is interpreting the rules to their absolute limit, and often beyond. How long did it take for the EBD to come out in 2010? Six months? At least six months I think. 



#677 EvanRainer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:58

? EBD was not some kind of a secret.



#678 Rinehart

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:58

I reckon there are some very good explanations in this thread. Being able to run the car softer because of superior aero is one. The lateral thinking idea of "harvesting" KERS under drive and not just braking is another. Aggregate those ideas with a driver that knows exactly how to get the best out of it all and no further explanation is needed. Vettel still needs to drive faultlessly to make it all come together, I might add.

 

This is my view precisely.

Ban TC and outlaw its creation by ecu - what does that achieve?

You're left with the knowledge and therefore engineers working out to recreate as many percent of its benefits as possible via other means. 

Same happens whenever the rules reduce aerodynamics (e.g. 2008 was it) within months they've recouped it all again and then some.

As I said earlier in this thread. You can't un-invent a gun. All you can do is force people to make them a different way. 



#679 EvanRainer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:58

Also as others have pointed out, what is Sauber's "trick"?



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#680 EvanRainer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:01

This is my view precisely.

Ban TC and outlaw its creation by ecu - what does that achieve?

You're left with the knowledge and therefore engineers working out to recreate as many percent of its benefits as possible via other means. 

Same happens whenever the rules reduce aerodynamics (e.g. 2008 was it) within months they've recouped it all again and then some.

As I said earlier in this thread. You can't un-invent a gun. All you can do is force people to make them a different way. 

 

I understand trying to ban TC in the sense of detecting spinning and a system automatically adjusting for it.

 

But other than that, yeah it can be a bit pointless seeing how trying to make your power delivery as smooth as possible and your traction as good as possible is the whole point.



#681 V3TT3L

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:01

As always people think TC is a silver bullet.

 

People should realize that the RB is the car with better tire management /Lotus.

Its obvious that IF Rb has better tires, it will have better traction.

It willl be capable of accelerating earlier than a worn out shod car.

 

So people should think about the cause/effect. For instance:

RB is a better balanced chassis, has more downforce, smaller KERS => better tire management => Better traction => Better Lap times

 

not that:

RB = Ferrari

RB + TC > Ferrari



#682 seahawk

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:10

One could look at the Sauber, Lotus and RBR. What do they have in common?

 

a) a ramp exhaust solution

b) a hidden illegal TC


Edited by seahawk, 09 October 2013 - 15:07.


#683 Crossmax

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:32

I think Lotus and Sauber are secretly owned by Dietrich Mateschitz as to provide Adrian Newey with some quality testing rigs for his various concepts.



#684 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:58

Lot of people in here pretending there are no differences of degree, for some reason.  Or thinking any comment has to be a complaint.



#685 F1ultimate

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:17

Welcome to the reality of next year. In 2014 cars will have electric motors and turbo charged engines producing high amounts of torque. Bare in mind that electric motors produce instant torque. 

 

I will be very surprised if Mercedes and Ferrari are cooking up ways to control torque output. Tires will simply degrade in a matter of laps without any level of traction/torque control.



#686 Afterburner

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:25

One could look at hte Sauber, Ltosu and RBR. What do they have in common?

a) a ramp exhaust solution
b) a hidden illegal TC

I think this is the most fascinating spelling of 'Lotus' that I've ever seen. :rotfl:

#687 RB1

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:36

Occam's Razor springs to mind from reading this discussion.

 

The Red Bull has great traction (as well as Lotus and Sauber). There seems to be two explanations

 

Explanation 1

The coanda ramp exhaust, which is well established to give good traction.

 

Explanation 2

Using the inductance/capacitance/resistance of the KERS as a PID controller, which somehow does not use the ECU to limit torque at the wheel when the rear wheels spin.

 

My understanding is not 100% correct but it seems much more likely the excellent traction of Red Bull is down to the exhaust layout than KERS trickery. Plus the fact that Lotus and Sauber have a similar exhaust solution and also have great traction, leads me to believe there is no quasi TC.



#688 rodlamas

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 16:23

Occam's Razor springs to mind from reading this discussion.

 

The Red Bull has great traction (as well as Lotus and Sauber). There seems to be two explanations

 

Explanation 1

The coanda ramp exhaust, which is well established to give good traction.

 

Explanation 2

Using the inductance/capacitance/resistance of the KERS as a PID controller, which somehow does not use the ECU to limit torque at the wheel when the rear wheels spin.

 

My understanding is not 100% correct but it seems much more likely the excellent traction of Red Bull is down to the exhaust layout than KERS trickery. Plus the fact that Lotus and Sauber have a similar exhaust solution and also have great traction, leads me to believe there is no quasi TC.

Acceleration out of the corners and the amount of torque is so big on an F1 car that a PID controller outside the ECU wouldn't mimic a TC. Also using KERS to limit power of the corners is BS, as KERS harvesting is limited to 160% of the energy that is used aroung the lap, which is just 6.67 seconds.



#689 Enzoluis

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 17:17

Occam's Razor springs to mind from reading this discussion.

 

The Red Bull has great traction (as well as Lotus and Sauber). There seems to be two explanations

 

Explanation 1

The coanda ramp exhaust, which is well established to give good traction.

 

Explanation 2

Using the inductance/capacitance/resistance of the KERS as a PID controller, which somehow does not use the ECU to limit torque at the wheel when the rear wheels spin.

 

My understanding is not 100% correct but it seems much more likely the excellent traction of Red Bull is down to the exhaust layout than KERS trickery. Plus the fact that Lotus and Sauber have a similar exhaust solution and also have great traction, leads me to believe there is no quasi TC.

 

Agree. KERS alone can`t explain the advantage. Can exhaust ramp? Vettel shows and advantage as he were using a DDS. Can the ramp explain that? I would take a look to that fragile gear box.



#690 pingu666

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 23:39

you can choose how much to harvsst under braking, so for your tc kers you harvest less from braking



#691 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 00:55

One thing some enterprising person might do - I don't have the time/motivation, but...

 

... Across a few tracks, Singapore/Spa/Korea, someone could watch the in-car laps of Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, and via the on-screen throttle/brake display stop-watch time how long they are between releasing the brake and getting on the throttle.

 

 Or better yet, the difference in time between releasing steering to throttle. 

 

Probably wouldn't be conclusive, but if Vettel was appreciably early...



#692 Tron

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 00:59

If the other teams haven't bitched about it while this is on page 14, clearly RB don't have anything illegal...



#693 levidrugi

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:38

I've been thinking of that 2.5 second difference in one lap, and how they could have achieved it. I just cannot imagine this was their true pace, even if Vettel turned everything up, and others were saving tires etc... 2.5 wasn't there in qualifying, or in practice.

 

So as a lamen I started thinking what they could have changed on the car before the start, and my only logical thought was the tires. Especially the rims. The regulations say they need to be made from AZ70 or AZ80 magnesium alloys. But who's checking that? Is that part of the post-race inspection?

 

So my theory is, what if they were only running the light alloy wheels on their first and second race stints, and then switch to a heavier wheel rim for their last stint so they match the car's minimum weight limit?

 

I don't know much about tire physics, but what if these wheels are 4-5kg heavier each? Would that kill cornering performance on a light car at the end of the race?



#694 apoka

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:45

I've been thinking of that 2.5 second difference in one lap, and how they could have achieved it. I just cannot imagine this was their true pace, even if Vettel turned everything up, and others were saving tires etc... 2.5 wasn't there in qualifying, or in practice.

 

Without commenting on the second point, a part of the gap is explained by Rosberg having front wing problems ( https://twitter.com/...699593855311873 ).



#695 Lotus53B

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:53

On the subject of front wings, watching the race on Sunday there were sl-mos of the Renault and Red Bull going over step curbs - the Renault front wing flexed like a slinky as it bounced, the Red Bull stayed solid as a rock - I wonder if this enables them to give a more consistent, and therefore probably faster, ride.



#696 seahawk

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:59

Seriously, years of flexi wing drama and now suddenly RBR has an advantage because their wings do not flex??



#697 undersquare

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:05

If the other teams haven't bitched about it while this is on page 14, clearly RB don't have anything illegal...

Well if you think back to the hinged bib saga, hardly anything was said by teams then either, in public, even though it was pretty obvious that a straight line along the floor ended up somewhere under the tarmac.

 

Nothing was done by the FIA then either, they just said 'it passes the tests', up until Webber's floor was photographed on a crane with the entire underside of the tea tray evenly worn, showing undeniably that it had been running flat as a pancake while the rest of the car was raked.  Hard to see how the FIA didn't know that already since they routinely inspect plank wear.

 

And what teams are saying now behind closed doors we have no idea.  So their apparent silence isn't evidence one way or the other, and nor, sadly, is the FIA saying they haven't found anything.



#698 Crossmax

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:21

Seriously, years of flexi wing drama and now suddenly RBR has an advantage because their wings do not flex??

I had the same laugh :lol:



#699 Lotus53B

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:26

Minor difference between random sinuous oscillations, and a planned lateral droop though



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#700 stulbenis

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:55

Interesting article
http://motortweets.c...ber/news/895103