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Is RB using a traction control system?


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#851 BiH

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 15:16

lol at this topic.

 

even with out KERS Red Bull dominated qualifying.

 

and tmmrw if KERS fails again Vettel will still finish on podium.



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#852 MikeV1987

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:09

 

This isn't my "pet conspiracy theory". I've been trying to sit down at the Vettel-supporters table and ask if there might indeed be something fishy going on.

It's been speculated that they've been clever with KERS, and when it fails, Vettel doesn't have much traction out of Spoon. It's just another interesting occurence.

 Or because of the lack of KERS he's trying to carry as much speed as possible through there and got a little loose in the process, normally they would hit the KERS button coming out of a corner like that. 



#853 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:33

 Or because of the lack of KERS he's trying to carry as much speed as possible through there and got a little loose in the process, normally they would hit the KERS button coming out of a corner like that. 

 

But wouldn't that mean more power going through the rear wheels and not less, and therefore make a spin more inevitable?



#854 fastwriter

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:39

No! before accelerating there is balance (neutral throttle) phase not braking. Obviously you are the one who needs to have things explained. We are talking about initial acceleration phase when normally RBR was “glued” to the track and suddenly it’s not. Maybe Vettel lost his magic foot.


With this you showed, that you don't have a clue. In modern F1 you brake so deep into the corner as possible, than accelerate as soon as possible, there is only an absolutly minimal phase without load in the car, neutral as you called it.

Edited by fastwriter, 12 October 2013 - 18:40.


#855 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:42

With this you showed, that you don't have a clue. In modern F1 you brake so deep into the corner as possible, than accelerate as soon as possible, there is only an absolutly minimal phase without load in the car, neutral as you called it.

 

Exactly, which is why the FRIC suspension system has been so important for some teams, as it attempts to give the car more time in neutrality than is possible with standard suspension which pitches and rolls.


Edited by DanardiF1, 12 October 2013 - 18:43.


#856 Bloggsworth

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:45

 Or because of the lack of KERS he's trying to carry as much speed as possible through there and got a little loose in the process, normally they would hit the KERS button coming out of a corner like that. 

 

But wouldn't that mean more power going through the rear wheels and not less, and therefore make a spin more inevitable?

 

Both of you are wrong on this point - Engaging KERS wouldn't improve traction, in fact, you wouldn't engage KERS until you had enough grip available to use the extra power. And as for not having KERS meant he had to "carry more speed", you mean he wasn't going as fast as he could already?!

 

KERS could be used for traction control by rapidly engaging and disengaging charging mode there by intermittently reducing, by absorbtion, the power going to the wheels.


Edited by Bloggsworth, 12 October 2013 - 18:45.


#857 Winter98

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:45

Actually, I was thinking about the exit of T11 - that's where he spun the rears, (in addition to going wide at Spoon but the entry is too fast I would guess, for any KERS-assisted TC-trickery to make a difference) like the rest, but we would need videos of his Q2-lap to be able to judge.

 

I'm not prepared to brush phone-videos on youtube under the carpet - far from it. They actually capture the raw sound as it is, and Vettel's car made a distinctly different sound from all the rest. I think it is interesting.

Sound editting software is free, and easy to use.

 

I put far more trust in FIA inspectors than youtube videos posted by random people, some of whom are trying to discredit Vettel because he keeps beating their favorite driver..


Edited by Winter98, 12 October 2013 - 18:46.


#858 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:09

Both of you are wrong on this point - Engaging KERS wouldn't improve traction, in fact, you wouldn't engage KERS until you had enough grip available to use the extra power. And as for not having KERS meant he had to "carry more speed", you mean he wasn't going as fast as he could already?!

 

KERS could be used for traction control by rapidly engaging and disengaging charging mode there by intermittently reducing, by absorbtion, the power going to the wheels.

 

That's what I mean, that if you were to engage KERS when grip is already at a premium... wouldn't the extra power be liable to cause extra slippage? KERS is only engaged as you say when you are able to use it efficiently.



#859 repete

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:29

IMO its not as complicated as some would like to make it out to be. With the broken KERS, SV would be focusing more on carrying as much speed through the turns as possible. Tires only have so much absolute traction they can provide, whethere the load is longitudinal or latitudinal. With KERS, they would sacrifice latitudinal traction for longitudinal so they can use the KERS earlier and get a better run down the strait. As that would be the most advantageous line. Without KERS, IMO, the focus would be more on maintaining momentum, ie, carrying as much speed as possilbe around the corners, with a shift towards more latitudinal traction use at the sacrifice of longitudinal traction. Which would also make it much easier to break traction under power (like at spoon in first q3 lap). Also, just cause they may be taking it slower at the apex while using KERS, does not mean they are not at the tires limit, as instead of taking the turn faster, they are using the tires available traction to accelerate forward instead of maintaining latteral stability. Without KERS, that sacrifice would probably not be beneficial.



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#860 TF110

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:50

Sound editting software is free, and easy to use.
 
I put far more trust in FIA inspectors than youtube videos posted by random people, some of whom are trying to discredit Vettel because he keeps beating their favorite driver..

Theres more than one video of the RB making different sounds. Its a little absurd to assume someone wants to edit a youtube video from their phone to make the red bull sound 'unique'.

#861 Group B

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:03

Possibly, but then it's also a little absurd that several people typing here 'know' Vettel has illegal traction control when apparently Mark Webber, the FIA and other teams don't.



#862 vista

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:13

Possibly, but then it's also a little absurd that several people typing here 'know' Vettel has illegal traction control when apparently Mark Webber, the FIA and other teams don't.

 

Well, apparently Webber's car didn't sound like Vettel's car in Singapore - but yeah, equal treatment, world peace, and all that.



#863 Group B

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:20

Well, apparently Webber's car didn't sound like Vettel's car in Singapore - but yeah, equal treatment, world peace, and all that.

 

And your point is what; Webber is too stupid to realise? Or too pathetically piss weak to object?



#864 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:21

Possibly, but then it's also a little absurd that several people typing here 'know' Vettel has illegal traction control when apparently Mark Webber, the FIA and other teams don't.

 

But do you not think someone in the whole paddock is not at all suspicious? They can't protest on suspicion alone without possibly getting egg on their face, but I'm sure there are those in paddock who think like us weirdo's on the internet...



#865 vista

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:27

And your point is what; Webber is too stupid to realise? Or too pathetically piss weak to object?

 

Too pride to complain, if anything. Just stating the fact that one car sounds different to the rest - including the other Bull. Of course, the interpretation of this is anyone's guess. 



#866 Group B

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:30

But do you not think someone in the whole paddock is not at all suspicious? They can't protest on suspicion alone without possibly getting egg on their face, but I'm sure there are those in paddock who think like us weirdo's on the internet...

 

Of course, that's very different, nothing wrong with some healthy suspicion and I'm sure plenty of those in the know have discussed the very same things, but the total lack of accusations, complaints or even serious suggestion rather inclines me to think the real experts in other teams aren't very convinced or have drawn totally different conclusions. Either that or they're all trying to copy it! Then, as I said, there's Webber, who doesn't strike me as either stupid or someone who'll tolerate being quite so monumentally shat on.



#867 Group B

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:38

Too pride to complain, if anything. Just stating the fact that one car sounds different to the rest - including the other Bull. Of course, the interpretation of this is anyone's guess. 

 

Yes, there's a genuine case for an odd sound, but you can guarantee that if us keyboard warriors have picked up on it then the uber tech geniuses in the other teams will have analysed the bejesus out of it by now. I'm not saying RB (or any team) wouldn't bend the rules - it's happened time and again - but as it stands I just don't think it quite stacks up, curious though it is.



#868 ANF

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:39

Well, apparently Webber's car didn't sound like Vettel's car in Singapore - but yeah, equal treatment, world peace, and all that.

Apparently, if you watch the video I posted on page 5 of this thread, all Renault engines sounded more or less the same in Singapore. :)



#869 BiH

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:42

Webber car sounds exactly like Vettel's watch the onboard pole lap from Webber from today.

 

 

Also as BBC guys mentioned during sector one nobody else is going through turns 3 to 7 in 5th gear like Red Bull, everyone else having to drop gear after turn 3-4.....the downforce of Red Bull once again is class of its own.

 

 

.....Ross Brawn mentioned that Red Bull made step during Spa and they haven't been able to catch up.



#870 RosannaG

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:45

Unfortunately it is because some folk see a perfectly reasonable technical debate as some sort of rabid fanboy attack on Vettel and Red Bull...........

 

I respect your opinion... Mine is different... It's true that many people around here know a lot about F1 and that is one of the reasons I love to be in this forum but, when they try to proof something without real knowledge and this goes on and on forever... As I see it, this topic is becoming a joke, plain and simple.  :)



#871 baddog

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:45

KERS could be used for traction control by rapidly engaging and disengaging charging mode there by intermittently reducing, by absorbtion, the power going to the wheels.

That sounds explodey!



#872 vista

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:54

Apparently, if you watch the video I posted on page 5 of this thread, all Renault engines sounded more or less the same in Singapore. :)

 

All right, didn't see that, I admit. Haven't read the whole thread.  :)  But in some videos (posted many places) I don't think that is the case - Minardi noticed it and mentioned that Vettel's car sound unique, even to Webber's.

 

I guess I overstated a bit when I wrote fact, but, you know, one only sees and uses the material that suites a given agenda.   ;)


Edited by vista, 12 October 2013 - 20:56.


#873 MikeV1987

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:57

But wouldn't that mean more power going through the rear wheels and not less, and therefore make a spin more inevitable?

 

 

Both of you are wrong on this point - Engaging KERS wouldn't improve traction, in fact, you wouldn't engage KERS until you had enough grip available to use the extra power. And as for not having KERS meant he had to "carry more speed", you mean he wasn't going as fast as he could already?!

 

KERS could be used for traction control by rapidly engaging and disengaging charging mode there by intermittently reducing, by absorbtion, the power going to the wheels.

I wasn't saying he would use it mid corner, but he would use it on the exit. Vettel seems to always use KERS in 4th gear, that extra boost allows him to have more speed on the straight. Without that boost, he would of had to do spoon more aggressively to try and make up for that loss of speed.


Edited by MikeV1987, 12 October 2013 - 20:58.


#874 Bloggsworth

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 21:04

I wasn't saying he would use it mid corner, but he would use it on the exit. Vettel seems to always use KERS in 4th gear, that extra boost allows him to have more speed on the straight. Without that boost, he would of had to do spoon more aggressively to try and make up for that loss of speed.

 

No he wouldn't, he would already be going as fast as he could safely negotiate the corner. You are suggesting that he goes more slowly round the corner in order to use KERS while still cornering on the exit. He would exit the corner as fast as possible in order to carry that speed down the following straight; he wouldn't engage KERS until he had sufficient grip to deploy it without causing wheelspin. Any traction braking event means the car is not travelling as fast as it could were traction not broken; so no, Vettel wouldn't engage it while cornering unless it was a flat out corner which could be negotiated faster had he more power.



#875 Kimble

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 21:06

As someone posted.  Ross Brawn saw the step change at Spa (after the summer shutdown!).  Everyone was saying they had been smart with their gearing but it is/was definitely something else.



#876 Callisto

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 21:09

Come on, that's just silly. Sound being converted doesn't ADD burping sounds.


As a dance music producer I agree,also converting to low quality mp3s reduces the higher frequency's not the low/mid "burping" sound ,low quality mp3s produce a whirling sound due to the compressed high frequencys

#877 baddog

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 21:12

Might have something to do with in the last 3 years rebull have being caught time and time again exploiting rules, grey areas or down right illegal, and being let off, usually when this happens the benefit of the doubt tends to disappear.

 

And I was FIRST on the list to lambast them (and almost everyone else) for stuff like the flexi wings/floors/noses.. that stuff is simple flat out cheating whoever does it. In fact I'm one of the more hardcore rule enforcement guys on here, I would have instantly banned the driver-operated F-duct under aero rules for instance.. I would not have allowed EBD to become a thing in the first place.

 

If this turned out to be cheating I would be (and will should it be so) calling for stripping of results and multi-year bans. However I feel that at this point it is just sour grapes with nothing behind it.



#878 black magic

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 23:52

likewise there is an alternative - to ban further use even if what they are doing is inside the rules because it is simply making a mockery of the championship.

 

when fans who have paid big money are booing your supposed star there is an issue. these are the real fans - people who have been prepared to pay a rip off price to go and watch in person.



#879 baddog

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:28

likewise there is an alternative - to ban further use even if what they are doing is inside the rules because it is simply making a mockery of the championship.

 

when fans who have paid big money are booing your supposed star there is an issue. these are the real fans - people who have been prepared to pay a rip off price to go and watch in person.

 

Paying to go to a grand prix doesn't mean your opinion is worthwhile. Have you SEEN a football match? Those guys pay through the nose to be utter pigs every weekend.



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#880 garagetinkerer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:58

Too pride to complain, if anything. Just stating the fact that one car sounds different to the rest - including the other Bull. Of course, the interpretation of this is anyone's guess. 

This is the first i ever hear about Webbo not complaining... I like the chap, very affable, mostly humble, but when it comes to Vettel, he loses handle on things at times. He has at times not just spoken against the team he drives for, but acted against the interests of the team as well.

 

cheers!



#881 garagetinkerer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:02

Unfortunately it is because some folk see a perfectly reasonable technical debate as some sort of rabid fanboy attack on Vettel and Red Bull...........

:rotfl:

 

RBR have been targeted for years now... mostly because the team doesn't have that many supporters frankly and the drivers that drive for them, nor do they for that matter. Mostly people are just pissed that their teams/ drivers aren't winning, and i've seen some forums and regular comments on articles and what not.

 

A lot of people also take a piss at Vettel, and what really amuses me, is the fact that some of those people are Webbo fans who suggest that either things are in favour of Vettel, or Vettel's just lucky to be driving the car he does... some suggest both, and the irony that it makes their favourite drivers look even worse, it doesn't dawn on most of them.

 

Anyhoo, i hope you enjoy the race and Vettel now being crowned for 4th time in a row... a feat that has only been achieved by Fangio and Schumacher. Elite company this!


Edited by garagetinkerer, 13 October 2013 - 04:07.


#882 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:33

Paying to go to a grand prix doesn't mean your opinion is worthwhile. Have you SEEN a football match? Those guys pay through the nose to be utter pigs every weekend.

 

In this part of the world, English football fans are normally associated with hooliganism.  It may be unfair to a great number of civilized English football fans, but that is how it is viewed given the long history of violence off the pitch.  



#883 baddog

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:55

That is my point. I'm from the English midlands and twice lived within 2 miles of a major stadium. Give it 30 years and football fans might deserve to lose that rep.

 

My expectation of race fans is pretty civilised. Now not all countries have that tradition I know, and some people think booing at the podium is a reasonable way of saying you wish someone you liked had won.. but I dont agree with them at all, it is borderline thuggish behaviour and dissapointing to see in f1.



#884 seahawk

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:24

Even Lauda said, that it is the exhaust ramp and the sealing of the diffusor which improved the RBR, Sauber and Lotus over the other cars.



#885 Araqiel

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:35

From Webber's pole lap, where he lost 0.150 to a 30km/h gust on the way into Spoon 1, then had a similar although less pronounced moment on the exit of Spoon 2, I'd say it's most likely that a change in wind direction and/or crosswind was the cause of Vettel's oversteer. Red Bull's KERS is housed within the gearbox unlike the other teams, which is an interesting point to consider when trying to decipher exactly how KERS could be used to control wheel slip under acceleration - which I haven't seen any real explanation for so far.



#886 sv401

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:16

Too pride to complain, if anything.

 

For sure. :lol:



#887 sv401

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:18

Unfortunately it is because some folk see a perfectly reasonable technical debate as some sort of rabid fanboy attack on Vettel and Red Bull...........

 

I wonder how many people would see it as a "perfectly reasonable technical debate" if similar accusations were made against their favorite teams.



#888 ThomFi

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:02

Even Lauda said, that it is the exhaust ramp and the sealing of the diffusor which improved the RBR, Sauber and Lotus over the other cars.

 

During yesterday's FP3, Ted Kravitz was taking about it on SKY by saying, there would be a far fetched theory about Red Bull and the usage of KERS for TC and that he talked about it with engineers in the pit lane and they had dismissed the theory.

It's rather telling, that no one in the real F1 world takes this theory or accusations about a TC seriously.


Edited by ThomFi, 13 October 2013 - 11:28.


#889 Shiroo

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:08

just look how much Sauber improved by ramp exhaust.

The truth is, that actual 2 best teams are with such exhaust. And Sauber started to look not too shabby. Often in Q3 and looks bettere than McLaren now.



#890 undersquare

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:22

I wonder how many people would see it as a "perfectly reasonable technical debate" if similar accusations were made against their favorite teams.

It's not necessarily an accusation against anyone.



#891 sv401

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:23

It's not necessarily an accusation against anyone.

 

I thought traction control is illegal (no matter how it is implemented, the rules ban any system that actively prevents wheelspin), so a claim that a team uses it would qualify as an accusation ?


Edited by sv401, 13 October 2013 - 11:24.


#892 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:28

Even Lauda said, that it is the exhaust ramp and the sealing of the diffusor which improved the RBR, Sauber and Lotus over the other cars.

 

That would not m have made an interesting story to rapid fanboys, would not it?   :D



#893 undersquare

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:31

During yesterday's FP3, Ted Karvitz was taking about it on SKY by saying, there would be a far fetched theory about Red Bull and the usage of KERS for TC and that he talked about it with engineers in the pit lane and they had dismissed the theory.

It's rather telling, that no one in the real F1 world takes this theory or accusations about a TC seriously.

Yeah I heard that.  But now they've read this thread, they're gonna be looking into it, don't you think?  :D

 

Even if we believe F1 people denying development directions...

 

If I were doing an F1 car I for sure would be looking long and hard at an electric motor in the driveline,   How could you not?  Instant torque in either direction, it's a dream.  One word in the regs could open an opportunity to store and release a bit of energy, in a capacitor or something, in some way that would be unforeseen yet defensible.  So I take the denials with a pinch of salt, personally.



#894 ThomFi

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:34

Yeah I heard that.  But now they've read this thread, they're gonna be looking into it, don't you think?  :D

 

Even if we believe F1 people denying development directions...

 

If I were doing an F1 car I for sure would be looking long and hard at an electric motor in the driveline,   How could you not?  Instant torque in either direction, it's a dream.  One word in the regs could open an opportunity to store and release a bit of energy, in a capacitor or something, in some way that would be unforeseen yet defensible.  So I take the denials with a pinch of salt, personally.

 

Surely not


Edited by ThomFi, 13 October 2013 - 11:37.


#895 study

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 13:29

:rotfl:

 

RBR have been targeted for years now... mostly because the team doesn't have that many supporters frankly and the drivers that drive for them, nor do they for that matter. Mostly people are just pissed that their teams/ drivers aren't winning, and i've seen some forums and regular comments on articles and what not.

 

 

No, they have being targeted for years cause they have bent the rules for years.


Edited by study, 13 October 2013 - 13:31.


#896 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 13:39

If I were doing an F1 car I for sure would be looking long and hard at an electric motor in the driveline,   How could you not?  Instant torque in either direction, it's a dream.  One word in the regs could open an opportunity to store and release a bit of energy, in a capacitor or something, in some way that would be unforeseen yet defensible.  So I take the denials with a pinch of salt, personally.

 

How do you bypass SECU then?



#897 skyfolker

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 14:21


Few other cars(4:07,4:43) in this video have that raspy sound similar to Red Bull's sound from the race.



#898 garagetinkerer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 18:43

No, they have being targeted for years cause they have bent the rules for years.

Everyone bends the rules... Brawn bent it to 2009 title and so on and so forth. So what is it about RBR that sends people into a tizzy? If they had enough fans, they wouldn't get poop flinged at them as much as and as often as they do...

 

edit: what did you think about Mercedes test this season?


Edited by garagetinkerer, 13 October 2013 - 18:43.


#899 Group B

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 18:54

Everyone bends the rules... Brawn bent it to 2009 title and so on and so forth. So what is it about RBR that sends people into a tizzy? If they had enough fans, they wouldn't get poop flinged at them as much as and as often as they do...

 

edit: what did you think about Mercedes test this season?

 

They've been winning for too long; casuals fans are bored of seeing them win and (some) serious fans of other drivers such as Fred are feeling cheated. TBF I'd probably be pretty cheesed off in their position, but Vettel & RB, whilst no saints, have certaily not earned some of the vitriol they're getting.



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#900 undersquare

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 19:00

How do you bypass SECU then?

I'm not as up on the tech regs as you I don't think, but I might start with the principle that let me run the bib flat on the floor for quite a good number of races, or the one that let me change engine maps every race for who knows how long.  And I might interpret "maximum torque demand" (or whatever the TC phrase is) to mean the maximum after I've added some, er, smoothing to the delivery.

 

Is harvesting prohibited under power?