55 replies to this topic

[Baddoer]

Maybe this sounds strange, but Vettel grabbed his 3 (make it 4) titles when Mark was his teammate. You don't need to go very far back in history,  as Michael Schumacher grabbed all his Ferrari titles when Barrichello was his teammate. We all know what happened next. Interesting, isn't it?

Edited by Baddoer, 30 September 2013 - 10:58.

[scandyman]

Maybe this sounds strange, but Vettel grabbed his 3 (make it 4) titles when Mark was his teammate. You don't need to go very far back in history,  as Michael Schumacher grabbed all his Ferrari titles when Barrichello was his teammate. We all know what happened next. Interesting, isn't it?

I read somewhere that Webber is being replaced by Webber 2.0

 

Young Aussie who can qualify decently and then fade in the races and also do his part to undermine (who brought safety car in Singapore???) Vettel's races. I see this combo will work as well as in the past.

[sennafan24]

Riccardo does not offer much to trouble Vettel straight away. Vettel is too well rounded and seasoned, and Riccardo is still an unpolished diamond. It is hard to say how much potential Riccardo has and if he will play a supporting role or be competing on equal terms. Anyone expecting a Prost/Senna or Lewis/Alonso type battle will probably be left miffed.

 

Right away I think Vettel will have the measure of Riccardo head to head, the best I think Riccardo can do is try and beat Vettel the odd time in qualifying. I expect the Red Bull to be very strong again next year, and I no doubt expect Vettel to be gunning for title number 5. I believe the only guy/team who can can stop him, is the sexy bastard in my avatar.

Edited by sennafan24, 30 September 2013 - 11:13.

[P123]

 Interesting, isn't it?

 

Not really.  Different situations, different stages of careers, different teams, etc.

Edited by P123, 30 September 2013 - 11:15.

[HoldenRT]

Webber hasn't faded in races since like 2007.  Last few years his biggest problems have been the starts but then usually catching up afterwards.  In China a few seasons ago he went from the back of the grid to 3rd, almost catching Vettel.  In the next year, he overtook Vettel on the last few laps.

 

The setup thing.. whether Webber has actually helped.. is the kind of thing that's hard to discuss now but will be easier with the benefit of hindsight.  It definately hasn't hurt, they've made a strong combo in terms of developing the car but who knows.  I doubt Vettel needs much help with that these days, and it's hard to imagine Dan contributing much.. he'll be too busy trying to learn.

[Group B]

Not really.  Different situations, different stages of careers, different teams, etc.

 

[eronrules]

nothing

[LuckyStrike1]

Winning races perhaps? 

[froggy22]

Maybe this sounds strange, but Vettel grabbed his 3 (make it 4) titles when Mark was his teammate. You don't need to go very far back in history,  as Michael Schumacher grabbed all his Ferrari titles when Barrichello was his teammate. We all know what happened next. Interesting, isn't it?

What happened?

[Ian G]

I don't know but Spanish and/or Italian news sites have the copy already to run.."Vettel to Ferrari in 2015",if Seb. stays then it will be "Daniel to Ferrari in 2016".   

[Tsarwash]

What will happen with Vettel after Webber leaves?

 

Keep driving F1 cars extremely well, performing at the front of the grid, continue annoying a large group of fans, and waving his finger at the camera when he wins races ? Just a guess.

[eronrules]

What happened?

Nothing

[apoka]

Whatever will happen with Vettel, I think the regulation changes will have a more dramatic effect than Webber leaving - at least it will be difficult to judge Webber's impact on car development, setup etc in hindsight.

 

[krea]

It will be easier for Vettel, because Ricciardo will defend his position against Alonso.

[Gorma]

Nothing

Well one lap dog brazilian was replaced by another brazilian lap dog.... This time it's an aussie lap dog.

[SealTheDiffuser]

So you mean you always need a loser next to you to be a big winner?

So next year, no championship for VET then.

[Group B]

Well one lap dog brazilian was replaced by another brazilian lap dog.... This time it's an aussie lap dog.

 

Boo Hoo, did the nasty German men win too many races for you?

[Thomas99]

Webber never fades in races. He used to 'fade' because he would out qualify the car.

 

Ricciardo is faster than Webber imo. 

[redreni]

When Webber leaves we will have another team-mate against whom to compare Vettel. So far he's outperformed everyone except Heidfeld.

 

In my view if he beats Ricciardo comfortably that won't tell us much because Ricciardo looks like nothing special. It will continue to be the case that the only decent driver Vettel's ever gone up against in F1 is Webber, and people will continue to disagree as to whether that's enough to put him on the same level as an Alonso or a Hamilton. So not much will change.

 

In the unlikely event that Ricciardo were to beat Vettel, or give him a serious run for his money, it would show that Webber had been performing worse than many of us had realised and it would call Vettel's credentials further into question.

[Group B]

When Webber leaves we will have another team-mate against whom to compare Vettel. So far he's outperformed everyone except Heidfeld.

 

In my view if he beats Ricciardo comfortably that won't tell us much because Ricciardo looks like nothing special. It will continue to be the case that the only decent driver Vettel's ever gone up against in F1 is Webber, and people will continue to disagree as to whether that's enough to put him on the same level as an Alonso or a Hamilton. So not much will change.

 

In the unlikely event that Ricciardo were to beat Vettel, or give him a serious run for his money, it would show that Webber had been performing worse than many of us had realised and it would call Vettel's credentials further into question.

 

It's lose-lose for SV; even if he comfortably beats DR the people with a Vettel chip on their shoulder will either say DR is an average donkey, or that the team screwed him although he was secretly faster. It will, if nothing else be interesting though; personally I've seen nothing thus far to convince me that DR is better than Webber, but I stand to be corrected.

[John Player]

But Barrichello and Schumacher were still together when they were beat by Alonso.

[Boxerevo]

There is a little but interesting possibility of being beated by Ric being 4 WDC.

Edited by Boxerevo, 30 September 2013 - 14:10.

[Racer3]

personally I've seen nothing thus far to convince me that DR is better than Webber

 

I guess there are good odds that Ricciardo's starts will be better than Webber's...

That's already one point that should get him closer to Vettel.

Daniel seems to be pretty fast and might well be a force to be reckoned with once he has mastered the learning curve.

Now the usual suspects will reply that he won't be allowed to do well, of course. Yawn

[MikeV1987]

I think Dan will surprise a lot of people, including Vettel. I think it's just a matter of time before the latter goes to Ferrari though.

Edited by MikeV1987, 30 September 2013 - 15:31.

[apoka]

I think Dan will surprise a lot of people, including Vettel. I think it's just a matter of time before the latter goes to Ferrari though.

 

A strong Ricciardo able to push him wouldn't be bad thing for Vettel actually. For Ricciardo it's a great opportunity. If he can beat or somehow stay close to a 3/4 times WDC, he has a bright future in F1.

 

It's lose-lose for SV; even if he comfortably beats DR the people with a Vettel chip on their shoulder will either say DR is an average donkey, or that the team screwed him although he was secretly faster. It will, if nothing else be interesting though; personally I've seen nothing thus far to convince me that DR is better than Webber, but I stand to be corrected.

 

In the short and mid term, it's a lose-lose situation. In the long term, it could, in theory, happen that Vettel beats Ricciardo, but the latter still remains in F1 and continues to have a good career. But yeah, in general I believe it's better to go against highly rated drivers (not just for the CV, but also for improving oneself).

[fabr68]

Webber will be missed next year. The 2010 and 2012 championships where won with his race wins.

[windy1603]

Same as the last few years, Ricciardo will be used as the guinea pig  for strategy calls when they are not sure if there is free air or tyre wear/performance issues 

[joshb]

Webber will be missed next year. The 2010 and 2012 championships where won with his race wins.

Webber passing Alonso at Silverstone also helped Seb win the 2012 title... I wonder if he had made the pass if Silverstone was the last race!

 

 

But I actually think Ricciardo will be competitive from the off as the cars are reset- next year's package will behave a lot differently than the 2012-2013 transitions, so it may offer Ricciardo a chance to get some early results... but over a season, i'd back Seb to beat him... and hopefully the whole field.

 

and If Ricciardo did equip himself well against Seb, why should that call into question Seb's ability??? He will likely be a 4 time champ! It should be massive kudos to Ricciardo for beating such a driver.

Senna lost to Prost, he's brilliant

Alonso tied versus the then rookie Hamilton, yet the pair of them are lauded for it.

If Ricciardo beats Seb, he's brilliant, anyone who thinks it would confirm Seb is no good hasn't got a clue

Edited by joshb, 30 September 2013 - 17:32.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

I predict many bad starts by Ricciardo and an assortment of mechanical problems.

 

Vettel: nothing will change.

[Andrew Hope]

I think the WDC battle becomes easier, and the WCC becomes harder, for the first year. Once Ricky Ardo is up2speed he'll be a match for Vettel.

[KingTiger]

I can see them having trouble with car setup without Webber's input. 

 

Then again, Newey's car are so fantastic that they don't even have to bother with setup 99% of the time. 

[ebc]

When Webber leaves we will have another team-mate against whom to compare Vettel. So far he's outperformed everyone except Heidfeld.

 

In my view if he beats Ricciardo comfortably that won't tell us much because Ricciardo looks like nothing special. It will continue to be the case that the only decent driver Vettel's ever gone up against in F1 is Webber, and people will continue to disagree as to whether that's enough to put him on the same level as an Alonso or a Hamilton. So not much will change.

 

In the unlikely event that Ricciardo were to beat Vettel, or give him a serious run for his money, it would show that Webber had been performing worse than many of us had realised and it would call Vettel's credentials further into question.

 

So let me get this straight, an unproven driver called Lewis Hamilton matches Alonso then both are brilliant and if an unproven driver like Ricciardo matches Vettel then both are ****.

 

Who decided that Alonso and Hamilton are the best drivers?

 

If Hamilton was a rookie, therefore unproven what did Alonso prove by finishing behind him in the championship?  And what did Alonso prove in 2005 and 2006 that Vettel hasn't proved many times over at RedBull.  Vettel will probably be a 4 time champ by then so he will be well in the top 10 of all time so if Ricciardo does well then he will prove himself to be a top driver aswell.

[SpartanChas]

I can see them having trouble with car setup without Webber's input. 
 
Then again, Newey's car are so fantastic that they don't even have to bother with setup 99% of the time.

One of the reasons they picked Dan is because he gives good feedback.

[sennafan24]

 

Senna lost to Prost, he's brilliant

 

1-1 in seasons with 1 Championship each is not a loss, and also the context in how he performed is valued more than any blanket stats in my eyes. Your post also lacks circumstances and context with other comparisons you noted.

 

That said, I do agree if Riccardo beats Seb, he is a brilliant driver. I seriously doubt that will happen though.

[paulogman]

not much should change

vettel has the whole team at his beck and call

and will continue that way.

the only thing that might help ricciardo is if he is about the same dimensions as vettel.

webber was not a good fit for the redbull

[Thomas99]

When Webber leaves we will have another team-mate against whom to compare Vettel. So far he's outperformed everyone except Heidfeld.

 

In my view if he beats Ricciardo comfortably that won't tell us much because Ricciardo looks like nothing special. It will continue to be the case that the only decent driver Vettel's ever gone up against in F1 is Webber, and people will continue to disagree as to whether that's enough to put him on the same level as an Alonso or a Hamilton. So not much will change.

 

In the unlikely event that Ricciardo were to beat Vettel, or give him a serious run for his money, it would show that Webber had been performing worse than many of us had realised and it would call Vettel's credentials further into question.

 

Or it will show that Ricciardo is rated highly for a reason. Most people consider him the fastest driver not in a top car.

[Thomas99]

There is a little but interesting possibility of being beated by Ric being 4 WDC.

 

The question must be asked, if Ricciardo finished ahead of Vettel next year (even if he doesn't win the title) must that mean Daniel is one of the all time greats? You don't dethrone a champion in their prime unless you are yourself better than they are. 

[Thomas99]

1-1 in seasons with 1 Championship each is not a loss, and also the context in how he performed is valued more than any blanket stats in my eyes. Your post also lacks circumstances and context with other comparisons you noted.

 

That said, I do agree if Riccardo beats Seb, he is a brilliant driver. I seriously doubt that will happen though.

 

Prost had more points in 88 and 89. Prost also dragged an inferior Ferrari in 1990 to championship contention and came back and beat Senna in 1993. Its very easy to tell the Senna/Prost tale with the view that Prost was well ahead.

[SR388]

He will find some way to screw over his teammate. 

[Andrew Hope]

He will find some way to screw over his teammate. 

I get a little jolt in my heart guts whenever SR388 posts.

[sennafan24]

Prost had more points in 88 and 89. Prost also dragged an inferior Ferrari in 1990 to championship contention and came back and beat Senna in 1993. Its very easy to tell the Senna/Prost tale with the view that Prost was well ahead.

I will ignore this so not to go off-topic, you really need to learn the definition of context though, the bits I bolded are the stuff of lack of research more than anything.

Edited by sennafan24, 01 October 2013 - 08:47.

[redreni]

So let me get this straight, an unproven driver called Lewis Hamilton matches Alonso then both are brilliant and if an unproven driver like Ricciardo matches Vettel then both are ****.

 

Who decided that Alonso and Hamilton are the best drivers?

 

If Hamilton was a rookie, therefore unproven what did Alonso prove by finishing behind him in the championship?  And what did Alonso prove in 2005 and 2006 that Vettel hasn't proved many times over at RedBull.  Vettel will probably be a 4 time champ by then so he will be well in the top 10 of all time so if Ricciardo does well then he will prove himself to be a top driver aswell.

 

Matching Hamilton isn't the only thing Alonso has done in his career, though, is it, in terms of beating people in the same car? Beating Webber is about all Vettel has done of any note in that regard. People like Trulli, Fisichella, Massa, Grosjean are more notable scalps, in my view, than Liuzzi or Bourdais.

 

In terms of beating people not in the same car, Vettel's record is superior. But that's why people suspect that it's the car, particularly when bearing in mind Adrian Newey's prior achievements.

[redreni]

Or it will show that Ricciardo is rated highly for a reason. Most people consider him the fastest driver not in a top car.

 

I doubt that. Maybe you should run a poll?

 

Personally I would put the Hulk way above Ricciardo in the running order for pace. And Sutil. Of course, these are all subjective judgements and there's no way to reliably compare drivers until they actually go head to head. But, as with Alonso and Vettel, the Hulk has a much more impressive list of people he's beaten in the same car than Ricciardo does.

[Miggeex]

It will be even more Vettel's car and Ricciardo can only hope that their setup-preferences are similar. That's because in the beginning of the season when Ricciardo is still learning to work with the engineers (and engineers are learning to work with Ricciardo and his needs), they'll often end up in a situation where they'll just decide to throw Vettel's settings to his car.

[Gallivant]

Any drastic changes in performance next year - across the entire field, not just in the RBR garage - will surely be dictated foremost by the new engines and rule changes.

[Raven8]

Nothing as long as Helmut Marko is there

[DampMongoose]

With no more tension created by the new number 2, it's just possible that Christian Horner may actually become even more cringingly smug than he ever was before?  

[Tron]

It can go many ways. Too many factors, like would Riccairdo pull off a "Multi 21", will Ferrari and McLaren get their cars right, will a small team a surprise us as did Brawn and Redbull back in 2009.

All of those will decide Redbull's tactics and the relantionship between Vettel and Riccairdo.

[Kelateboy]

I think Dan will surprise a lot of people, including Vettel. I think it's just a matter of time before the latter goes to Ferrari though.

 

If Ricciardo is to spring a major challenge to Vettel next year, he has to do it from the 1st race of the season. As the season progresses, Vettel will get better. 

[Sammyosammy]

What will happen with Vettel after Webber leaves?

Me myself predict Vettel will stay.Pure and clean as that.

Edited by Sammyosammy, 01 October 2013 - 13:35.