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2013 Korean GP FP1,2,3 and Qualifying


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#301 matador1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 14:36

Alonso today:

"We are the third or fourth fastest team. It's what we've been in the last four years and I managed to fight for the drivers' world championship and we put Ferrari in second position in last year's championship,"

http://uk.eurosport....503865--f1.html

 

I don't agree with the statement Ferrari has been the third or fourth fastest car over the past four years. I think they were top 2 in 2010 and also in 2012 (Hamilton is certainly not going to agree that he was in the top two team last year). So I find this statement from Alonso to be off.  Ferrari is certainly up there along with other teams not named Red Bull this year as well, so they are not clear third or fourth best this year. They arguably had the best car for the first third of the season. So, overall Ferrari has not been third or fourth over the past four years. I would say top 2 over the past four years.

 

Even in today's qualy, I am not sure what he has done special. Okay, they are third or fourth best today. Drivers from all three teams are lining up before him (except Raikkonen who made mistake in Q3). So he is in the right position today. I have no idea what he is talking about and I don't know what Ferrari would make of such statements..

 

You are making the mistake of judging the cars performance levels just by looking at the results, which is very flawed and often misleading and involves zero analysis. If you actually analysed the seasons, and the actual performance level of the cars you would see that Alonso is 100% correct. In 2010 Ferrari were about equal with Mclaren. 2011, 3rd, 2012, 4th, and 2013, 4th again. Their results have been far better than the cars have actually been which is the point Alonso is making. If you don't believe it just look at the lap times instead of the final finishing places.



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#302 matador1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 14:40

. But as I've said in the Ferrari thread, since 2010 Ferrari has done as good/better than every other team sans RB. I think what we hear from Alonso today is frustration.

 

 

 

They were clearly behind Mclaren in 2011, 2012, and behind Lotus and Mercedes in 2013, so not sure what you are smoking. It seems you are being a little misleading by saying they have 'done better' which they have, when Alonso was specifically talking about the car performance levels.



#303 RealRacing

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 14:58

That was totally miss translated from Italian TV, where he said Redbull's strength compared to Ferrari in the final part of the season is what it's been for the last four years.


Would anyone speaking Italian be so nice to translate the original?

#304 kosmos

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 15:37

Pretty stupid and ******** comment by Hembery, I wonder if he told Vettel that he should ask Fernando or Kimi for advice when he complained before the tyre change.

 

http://www.wltx.com/...for-Drop-to-4th

 

Also, it looks to me like Fernando is talking about the SS in this race not the tyres in general, is consistent with his comments in other places saying that he had his SS destroyed by S3.



#305 turssi

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 15:44

Should be a great race tomorrow! Top-5 qualifiers will race hard for position, while Mark and Kimi will be doing overtakes to reach the leading pack!

#306 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 15:47

You are making the mistake of judging the cars performance levels just by looking at the results, which is very flawed and often misleading and involves zero analysis. If you actually analysed the seasons, and the actual performance level of the cars you would see that Alonso is 100% correct. In 2010 Ferrari were about equal with Mclaren. 2011, 3rd, 2012, 4th, and 2013, 4th again. Their results have been far better than the cars have actually been which is the point Alonso is making. If you don't believe it just look at the lap times instead of the final finishing places.

How do you know that? I am judging the cars just like you do. Alonso is not 100% correct. I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. He probably said these things in the heat of the moment in an interview.

 

In 2010, if Ferrari were about equal with McLaren they are definitely joint top 2.

I give you 2011.

2012, they are top 2.

2013, they are as good as they have shown themselves to be.

 

The bottomline is if your team name is not Red Bull, Ferrari has done as well as any team out there. They have been the second-best overall these past 4 years. For Ferrari to be the 4th best team in 2012 and 2013, it must mean drivers like Hamilton and Raikkonen have massively underperformed during the past two years. That would need some serious convincing.


 



#307 matador1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 15:59

How do you know that? I am judging the cars just like you do. Alonso is not 100% correct. I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. He probably said these things in the heat of the moment in an interview.

 

 

 

You are judging the cars by the world championship results, while I am judging them by actual performance levels. Very different things. Under your logic any car that wins a race and title is automatically the best car , which we all know is nonsense.

 

 

 

 

For Ferrari to be the 4th best team in 2012 and 2013, it must mean drivers like Hamilton and Raikkonen have massively underperformed during the past two years. That would need some serious convincing

 

Hamilton gets a pass because of all the car issues he had last year but Button does not, while Kimi of course under performed definitely last year coming back into the sport after 2 years with no experience with the tyres.



#308 Tron

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 16:12

Would anyone speaking Italian be so nice to translate the original?

 

http://www.gazzetta....296806295.shtml

 

"L’obiettivo è ancora il podio. Veniamo da tre secondi posti consecutivi e possiamo fare ancora bene. Certo, a meno di incidenti o rotture meccaniche, le Red Bull rischiano ancora di fare prima e seconda. Però è così: da quattro anni loro viaggiano con un vantaggio da mezzo secondo a un secondo su di noi."

 

Direct translation. - "The objective will be once more the podium. We come from 3 consecutive second places and we can still do well. Certainly, if accidents and mechanical failures doesn't occure, Red Bull risks once to be first and second. However it's like this: It's four years now that they (Redbull) race with an advantage of half a second to a second over us."

 

He doesn't say Ferrari were third or fourth fastest for the last 4 years. Big difference to what certain sites and fans are speculating about.


Edited by Tron, 05 October 2013 - 16:14.


#309 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 16:21

You are judging the cars by the world championship results, while I am judging them by actual performance levels. Very different things. Under your logic any car that wins a race and title is automatically the best car , which we all know is nonsense.

NO. I did not mention it anywhere. You are assuming my logic. You have no proof to say that I am rating the cars the way you mention it.

 

Hamilton gets a pass because of all the car issues he had last year but Button does not,
 

Of course, Hamilton does. Because if your wheel-gun is not working during pit-stops, your car fails multiple times and your team makes mistakes, you can't say Hamilton had better car. In this context, Alonso had as good or better car than Hamilton. Yes, Button disappeared for a while in the middle of the season and underperformed. I can't see how that would be a hindrance to Alnoso. Alonso benefitted from it. So overall, Alonso had as good or better machinery/team to exploit compared to the challenge provided by McLaren.

while Kimi of course under performed definitely last year coming back into the sport after 2 years with no experience with the tyres.

 

Again, no proof. You are the one making assumption. You are assuming by default that Kimi must have underperformed because of the break and no experience with tyres. Even if that were true, how would that equate to Alonso beating Raikkonen? Are you not saying yourself that Raikkonen was held up by his own situation-based limitations? I can't see what argument you have to prove that Alonso outperformed Hamilton and Raikkonen. You can of course say Alonso outperformed Button and Webber, but I am not sure most people are going to rave about it.

 

All thing considered, Alonso had things go his way and he had, at the very least, the second best conditions to fight for the championships and not third or fourth best.



#310 RealRacing

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 16:33

http://www.gazzetta....296806295.shtml
 
"L’obiettivo è ancora il podio. Veniamo da tre secondi posti consecutivi e possiamo fare ancora bene. Certo, a meno di incidenti o rotture meccaniche, le Red Bull rischiano ancora di fare prima e seconda. Però è così: da quattro anni loro viaggiano con un vantaggio da mezzo secondo a un secondo su di noi."
 
Direct translation. - "The objective will be once more the podium. We come from 3 consecutive second places and we can still do well. Certainly, if accidents and mechanical failures doesn't occure, Red Bull risks once to be first and second. However it's like this: It's four years now that they (Redbull) race with an advantage of half a second to a second over us."
 
He doesn't say Ferrari were third or fourth fastest for the last 4 years. Big difference to what certain sites and fans are speculating about.


Ok, thanks for the translation. I wonder if they are not two different interviews maybe? The one from Eurosport, or compiled by Eurosport (it says source is Reuters), does not paraphrase but cites quote directly: "We are the third or fourth fastest team. It's what we've been in the last four years and I managed to fight for the drivers' world championship and we put Ferrari in second position in last year's championship." Seems like a pretty gross misquote from someone like Reuters in comparison to the translation.

In any case, IMO it is also quite wide off the mark to say that RBR have been 0.5 to 1 sec faster that Ferrari for 4 years anyway.

#311 matador1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 16:37

NO. I did not mention it anywhere. You are assuming my logic. You have no proof to say that I am rating the cars the way you mention it.

 

 

Oh ok. Well can you explain exactly what criteria you used to conclude the Ferrari was the second best car last year. You sort of just said it, and that's not much of an argument. Keep in mind that according to the lap times the car was 4th fastest.

 

 

 

Of course, Hamilton does. Because if your wheel-gun is not working during pit-stops, your car fails multiple times and your team makes mistakes, you can't say Hamilton had better car. In this context, Alonso had as good or better car than Hamilton. Yes, Button disappeared for a while in the middle of the season and underperformed. I can't see how that would be a hindrance to Alnoso. Alonso benefitted from it. So overall, Alonso had as good or better machinery/team to exploit compared to the challenge provided by McLaren.

 

So because Button under performed in a better car, you conclude the Ferrari was the better machinery? Weird logic. The Mclaren was miles faster than Ferrari and Buttons car wa quite reliable, so it was the better car, which makes Ferrari at least 3rd best.

 

 

 

 

Again, no proof. You are the one making assumption. You are assuming by default that Kimi must have underperformed because of the break and no experience with tyres. Even if that were true, how would that equate to Alonso beating Raikkonen? Are you not saying yourself that Raikkonen was held up by his own situation-based limitations? I can't see what argument you have to prove that Alonso outperformed Hamilton and Raikkonen. You can of course say Alonso outperformed Button and Webber, but I am not sure most people are going to rave about it.

 

Sure no proof, but its completely logical that a driver 2 years out of the sport would be rusty and not performing at 100%, not to mention Kimi even at 100% is no Alonso which you must factor in.


Edited by matador1, 05 October 2013 - 16:38.


#312 Tron

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 16:39

Ok, thanks for the translation. I wonder if they are not two different interviews maybe? The one from Eurosport, or compiled by Eurosport (it says source is Reuters), does not paraphrase but cites quote directly: "We are the third or fourth fastest team. It's what we've been in the last four years and I managed to fight for the drivers' world championship and we put Ferrari in second position in last year's championship." Seems like a pretty gross misquote from someone like Reuters in comparison to the translation.

 

I know Reauters is reliable with news, but over the years I've come across various errors in translations, or sometimes they merge them together, which could be the case here, where they took two different interviews and merged them.

 

However none of the Italian sites are reporting (Yet?) what Eurosports reported, and usually everything that Alonso says during race weekend, it goes through Ferrari's PR who release it to all the other news agencies.



#313 fatd

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 16:51

xD ah that's just a quote from Pokémon ;) isn't like an insult or a description of him being wild, but him suddenly popping up ;) and you found the pic in the other thread xD can repost it here tho

tumblr_mu6nmkgEQ41sz1nqxo3_1280.jpg

:D I love when stuff like that happens drivers being cool together ;)


Just saw the video and it was nice to see indeed :D Lewis used to be one of my least favorite driver but now I even begin to cheer for him at times!

#314 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 17:26

Oh ok. Well can you explain exactly what criteria you used to conclude the Ferrari was the second best car last year. You sort of just said it, and that's not much of an argument. Keep in mind that according to the lap times the car was 4th fastest.

So, lap time stats are okay, but point and result stats are not? The statement of contention is Ferrari being the third or fourth best car. Just like you say it was fourth best based on your own observations and race results, I am saying it was better than third or fourth best.

 

So because Button under performed in a better car, you conclude the Ferrari was the better machinery? Weird logic. The Mclaren was miles faster than Ferrari and Buttons car wa quite reliable, so it was the better car, which makes Ferrari at least 3rd best.

 

The point is not really about ranking cars. The underlying point is what is it that Alonso did to beat the better cars. Drivers going MIA or driving at a weaker Webber level does not exactly mean Alonso is beating them or putting 3rd/4th best car at P2.  Other similar top drivers like Hamilton got out of the way because of problems. So Alonso had perfect means to end up where he did. If you really want to get technical with Button's McLaren and Hamilton's McLaren, that would still make Alonso's car top 2.5, not third or fourth.

 

If your point is Alonso beat Button, so what? Host of other drivers did as well..

 

Sure no proof, but its completely logical that a driver 2 years out of the sport would be rusty and not performing at 100%, not to mention Kimi even at 100% is no Alonso which you must factor in.

 

No, not logical. Prost won his championship first year after a break. There is no proof to say Raikkonen was not performing at 100%.

 

Then, "not to mention Kimi even at 100% is no Alonso which you must factor in."  Ooooh, I did not know that and did not factor it in. Kimi is a worse driver and hence that is automatically a position gain for Alonso in terms of weaker car.  Nobody can argue against that sort of argument.

 


Edited by SpaMaster, 05 October 2013 - 17:32.


#315 MikeV1987

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 17:30

I'm starting to think if a car can consistently finish on the podium, then it has the pace to at least qualify in the first two rows. Alonso is full of ****.


Edited by MikeV1987, 05 October 2013 - 17:31.


#316 turssi

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 17:43

Fernando is a great pilot and agressive in his statements. No shame in that.

 

I'd say that in 2010 RBR, Ferrari and McLaren were all good cars to drive.

In 2011 RBR was the best, McLaren 2nd and Ferrari 3rd.

In 2012 RBR, Ferrari and McLaren were all good cars to drive (McLaren was an awful team for the race operations, but the car was top notch).

This year Ferrari is again chasing RBR.

 

So that would put them as the second best team. What Fernando could be doing is finding the low points (worst races + worst qualifyings) and using those to arrive at the conclusion that they are the 4th team... (if he really is doing this depends on the original interview/quote which I have not seen).



#317 MikeV1987

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 17:45

Fernando is just playing up his own driving and putting down Ferrari like he usually does, so glad they signed Kimi to show him what's up.



#318 Boxerevo

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 17:49

Fernando is a great pilot and agressive in his statements. No shame in that.

 

I'd say that in 2010 RBR, Ferrari and McLaren were all good cars to drive.

In 2011 RBR was the best, McLaren 2nd and Ferrari 3rd.

In 2012 RBR, Ferrari and McLaren were all good cars to drive (McLaren was an awful team for the race operations, but the car was top notch).

This year Ferrari is again chasing RBR.

 

So that would put them as the second best team. What Fernando could be doing is finding the low points (worst races + worst qualifyings) and using those to arrive at the conclusion that they are the 4th team... (if he really is doing this depends on the original interview/quote which I have not seen).

Totally agree,Ferrari as a team was much superior to Mclaren in 2012 but the Mclaren was a faster car no doubt.

 

Fernando is doing every week the best possible at sundays,Ferrari that has to realise that this poor qualifying show can't get championships.

 

Car is very good at sundays no doubt,nobody does miracles.... just a slow car saturdays.



#319 mardmarium

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 17:56

I'm starting to think if a car can consistently finish on the podium, then it has the pace to at least qualify in the first two rows. Alonso is full of ****.

 

If you say so...



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#320 bub

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 17:57

Alonso is correct for the most part



#321 Fontainebleau

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 17:57

Fernando is just playing up his own driving and putting down Ferrari like he usually does, so glad they signed Kimi to show him what's up.

 

I'm starting to think if a car can consistently finish on the podium, then it has the pace to at least qualify in the first two rows. Alonso is full of shit.

I am starting to think that your contributions to the discussion are not exactly top quality...



#322 MikeV1987

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 18:01

That's fine, I'm okay with going against the grind and not buying Alonso's b.s. either way.


Edited by MikeV1987, 05 October 2013 - 18:05.


#323 FastnLoud

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 18:32

Apart from 2011 Ferrari have had a very quick race car but not Quali.



#324 Winter98

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 19:06

That's fine, I'm okay with going against the grind and not buying Alonso's b.s. either way.

Alonso does have a history of bigging himself up by putting down the car.  That is undeniable imo.



#325 V3TT3L

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 19:09

Alonso does have a history of bigging himself up by putting down the car.  That is undeniable imo.

In a way... Alonso never left Minardi  :p



#326 mardmarium

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 19:51

First of all, what did Alonso actually say? Then, can those who say that he is only trying to big himself up explain why he could/should at least qualify in first two rows? I would be the first one critizicing Alonso if I got the feeling that he is trying to diminish the team, making up problems that aren’t real, but I cannot criticize him, must be for something.



#327 RealRacing

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 20:37

In a way... Alonso never left Minardi  :p


You can take the Samurai out of the Minardi but you can never take the Minardi out of the Samurai...

#328 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 20:59

^ :p


Edited by SpaMaster, 05 October 2013 - 20:59.


#329 MortenF1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 21:19

Surprised and impressed that Vettel got a two-tenths margin today. Thumbs up also to Webber, who I think would've been a genuine threat for pole if he could've gone down the more normal set-up path.

Second for Hamilton, good, and I hope he can get in the lead on lap one. There might actually be a race again, between Red Bull and Mercedes.

Great going from Grosjean again - shame about Räikkönen. He was on for a much better result before he made an unusual mistake, but then I've read that his front-wing was broken but no-one noticed!!

Not looking like the best of weekend for Ferrari. Sauber continues being on a roll, and I'm beginning to be impressed by Gutierrez, who I thought was bad earlier in the season.

Too bad Button got impeded, 'cause I think he's been quick here.

What happened with Williams? After third free I certainly expected better than 17/18th.


Edited by race addicted, 05 October 2013 - 21:33.


#330 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 21:25

race addicted:As for Hamilton getting the lead on lap one: Hamilton is among the slowest (among the top-runners) in sector 1 and Vettel among the fastest - I think about two tenths.. I think Mercedes is running with a bit more wing here..


Edited by SpaMaster, 05 October 2013 - 21:27.


#331 MortenF1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 21:30

I said "hope" ;) But there should be a chance, perhaps braking for T3 if the start has otherwise been good.



#332 apoka

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 21:45

 

http://www1.skysport.../8957596/vettel

Karun Chandhok reviews Sebastian Vettel's perfect pole lap at the Korean GP.

 

If people could just forget for a moment that this is a Vettel/RB lap, then it looks really great. 


Edited by apoka, 05 October 2013 - 21:45.


#333 sennafan24

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 23:27

If people could just forget for a moment that this is a Vettel/RB lap, then it looks really great. 

As I am no longer a Vettel cynic, I can enjoy his talents a lot.

 

Watching that pole lap may not give me the chills that a Lewis pole lap does (such is my fanboyism), but I can admire the little bits he does that separate it from being pure car performance that make him a great driver. Those perfect lines he takes, taking you just the right amount of curve, the timing and accuracy cannot be achieved by anything other than a great driver in my opinion.

 

Yes, the RB is the best car, and Lewis was equally as **** hot today in outperforming Nico. But I can admire talent when I see it.



#334 Boxerevo

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 02:16

Korea's starts are nasty,anxious about the start.

 

Grosjean close doesn't help too.



#335 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 02:56

Alonso is starting on the clean side with a usual Ferrari lightning quick start. He will be up there with the front runners unless something torpedoed him off the start.



#336 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:37

I was wondering if all those who criticised Alonso's statements about the inferiority of his car want to revisit their comments after what we have seen today, or if they prefer to keep on ignoring facts...  ;)



#337 dau

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:41

I was wondering if all those who criticised Alonso's statements about the inferiority of his car want to revisit their comments after what we have seen today, or if they prefer to keep on ignoring facts...  ;)

It was good enough to fight with Merc, wasn't it? And the Mercs were on course for a podium speed-wise.



#338 Crossmax

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:50

It was good enough to fight with Merc, wasn't it? And the Mercs were on course for a podium speed-wise.

But was it? Subtract the charity strategy run by Lewis' side of the garage, and the prototype flexi wing on Nico's car, and Alonso wouldn't have been anywhere near the Mercs. Besides, Hulkenberg backed up Hamilton, making Alonso look more competitive as compared to the Merc than he really was.



#339 stillOrange

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:58

Subtract Massa's first lap slide and I think Alonso would be near Mercs.

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#340 dau

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 09:12

But was it? Subtract the charity strategy run by Lewis' side of the garage, and the prototype flexi wing on Nico's car, and Alonso wouldn't have been anywhere near the Mercs. Besides, Hulkenberg backed up Hamilton, making Alonso look more competitive as compared to the Merc than he really was.

Hulk backed up Alonso before as well, so how would we be able to assess his speed anyway? He spent the whole race behind either Hulk or Hamilton and it did seem like he had more of a chance to pass Hamilton than he did with Hulk. No chance to keep Webber behind though, that's for sure.



#341 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:28

Hulk backed up Alonso before as well, so how would we be able to assess his speed anyway? He spent the whole race behind either Hulk or Hamilton and it did seem like he had more of a chance to pass Hamilton than he did with Hulk. No chance to keep Webber behind though, that's for sure.

Hamilton got over a sec advantage on Alonso in just one lap after the first battle they had on the restart - don't you think that was enough to assess their relative speeds?

 

Also, apart from Webber I think we can all agree that the Lotus were faster too.


Edited by Fontainebleau, 06 October 2013 - 11:29.