864 replies to this topic

[SpaMaster]

Frankly, hard to know when some drivers are better than other ones considering that the car has vital influence in the final result. Lewis and Fernando hasn´t been helped by their cars/ race circumstances (I've been especially focused on Ferrari car during the race and that car has had problems). Hamilton is right when he says that they shouldn´t be fighting for fifth-sixth position, I cannot see arrogance there. Many times when “drivers of higher calibre” (as Hamilton has said) finish in lower positions, people tend to think that the reason behind that is poor performance of the car, but it works the other way around as well, people expect more from them, so, when they don´t finish in front positions, that must be because they have done something wrong, no matter the car or circumstances. I can understand if they are frustrated and say something that, although honest, can sound arrogant to some people. 

 

Hamilton has himself to blame for going from P2 to P5 behind Hulkenberg. If it wasn't for the car failure of his teammate, he would have been P6. I think this was a race where Hamilton's speed was nothing special. His wheel-to-wheel racecraft was fantastic and great to see. But that does not mean he was fast today. Coming to Alonso. He had a faster qualifying car than Hulkenberg, better starting car than Hulkenberg, yet got stuck behind him the whole race. Whose mistake was that? As great as Hamilton and Alonso are, stillOrange is right - there were at least four other drivers who were better than them today.

Edited by SpaMaster, 06 October 2013 - 17:11.

[stillOrange]

Frankly, hard to know when some drivers are better than other ones considering that the car has vital influence in the final result. Lewis and Fernando hasn´t been helped by their cars/ race circumstances (I've been especially focused on Ferrari car during the race and that car has had problems). Hamilton is right when he says that they shouldn´t be fighting for fifth-sixth position, I cannot see arrogance there. Many times when “drivers of higher calibre” (as Hamilton has said) finish in lower positions, people tend to think that the reason behind that is poor performance of the car, but it works the other way around as well, people expect more from them, so, when they don´t finish in front positions, that must be because they have done something wrong, no matter the car or circumstances. I can understand if they are frustrated and say something that, although honest, can sound arrogant to some people.

I didn't really comment on what Hamilton said as I don't see much wrong with it. Certainly wouldn't and didn't call it arrogant.
I'm pretty sure though that large part if these forums would say just that if it was Vettel's words.

My post, you quoted, was in response to someone that ignored at least four other drivers that did great job today, not in response to Lewis's comments.

[mardmarium]

I didn't really comment on what Hamilton said as I don't see much wrong with it. Certainly wouldn't and didn't call it arrogant.
I'm pretty sure though that large part if these forums would say just that if it was Vettel's words.

My post, you quoted, was in response to someone that ignored at least four other drivers that did great job today, not in response to Lewis's comments.

 

My mistake then. I agree with you, other drivers have done great job today and I mentioned some of them in another post.

 

Hamilton has himself to blame for going from P2 to P5 behind Hulkenberg. If it wasn't for the car failure of his teammate, he would have been P6. I think this was a race where Hamilton's speed was nothing special. His wheel-to-wheel racecraft was fantastic and great to see. But that does not mean he was fast today. Coming to Alonso. He had a faster qualifying car than Hulkenberg, better starting car than Hulkenberg, yet got stuck behind him the whole race. Whose mistake was that? As great as Hamilton and Alonso are, stillOrange is right - there were at least four other drivers who were better than them today.

 

Ferrari suffers from traction deficit, to be honest, sometimes during the season it has been painful to watch. Tires problems haven´t helped, race pace wasn´t there this weekend, fortunately, in other races has been different. Hulkenberg did a great job, impressive, I am the first one to say that he should be hired by a top team, in fact, I was expecting Ferrari to hire him before Kimi deal started to materialize, but difficult to ignore that he kept Hamilton and Alonso behind because his car allowed him to do so.

[kimister]

Did you see this during the pre -race ? 

[SpaMaster]

My mistake then. I agree with you, other drivers have done great job today and I mentioned some of them in another post.

 

 

Ferrari suffers from traction deficit, to be honest, sometimes during the season it has been painful to watch. Tires problems haven´t helped, race pace wasn´t there this weekend, fortunately, in other races has been different. Hulkenberg did a great job, impressive, I am the first one to say that he should be hired by a top team, in fact, I was expecting Ferrari to hire him before Kimi deal started to materialize, but difficult to ignore that he kept Hamilton and Alonso behind because his car allowed him to do so.

I definitely agree that Hulkenberg had a car that allowed him to do what he did. Yes, Ferrari's car had problems, but all cars not named Red Bull have their own such problems. Even today Ferrari was the faster car. Alonso had two chances to jump Hulkenberg - during the two pit-stops. Hulkenberg pitted early for the second stop precisely to do what he did later in the race - to keep up his defensive position. Raikkonen already initiated that chain of event by pitting even earlier. That earlier Raikkonen pit-stop should have already made Ferrari/Alonso think what do they do about Hulkenberg and if they should go down that route. In my opinion they should have pitted before Hulkenberg. I am sure Alonso would have jumped him even if he had just one lap. Hulkenberg beat Alonso/Ferrari fair and square today.

[slmk]

Hamilton has himself to blame for going from P2 to P5 behind Hulkenberg. If it wasn't for the car failure of his teammate, he would have been P6. I think this was a race where Hamilton's speed was nothing special. His wheel-to-wheel racecraft was fantastic and great to see. But that does not mean he was fast today. Coming to Alonso. He had a faster qualifying car than Hulkenberg, better starting car than Hulkenberg, yet got stuck behind him the whole race. Whose mistake was that? As great as Hamilton and Alonso are, stillOrange is right - there were at least four other drivers who were better than them today.

 

What? He had a 20 sec. advantage over the HUL train, and over 10 sec over this teammate. The team screwed him by putting him on a unrealistic 2 stopper.

[mardmarium]

I definitely agree that Hulkenberg had a car that allowed him to do what he did. Yes, Ferrari's car had problems, but all cars not named Red Bull have their own such problems. Even today Ferrari was the faster car. Alonso had two chances to jump Hulkenberg - during the two pit-stops. Hulkenberg pitted early for the second stop precisely to do what he did later in the race - to keep up his defensive position. Raikkonen already initiated that chain of event by pitting even earlier. That earlier Raikkonen pit-stop should have already made Ferrari/Alonso think what do they do about Hulkenberg and if they should go down that route. In my opinion they should have pitted before Hulkenberg. I am sure Alonso would have jumped him even if he had just one lap. Hulkenberg beat Alonso/Ferrari fair and square today.

 

I´ve never said otherwise, he did what he had to do, impressive performance. I would give him a well deserved 10.

[SpaMaster]

What? He had a 20 sec. advantage over the HUL train, and over 10 sec over this teammate. The team screwed him by putting him on a unrealistic 2 stopper.

Are you sure he would have jumped Hulkenberg by pitting a few laps early for a three-stopper. I thought Hulkenberg was already close as he pitted a bit earlier and erased some of the stop-corrected gap. I am not sure Hamilton would have finished ahead of Hulkenberg by pitting one more time.

[slmk]

Are you sure he would have jumped Hulkenberg by pitting a few laps early for a three-stopper. I thought Hulkenberg was already close as he pitted a bit earlier and erased some of the stop-corrected gap. I am not sure Hamilton would have finished ahead of Hulkenberg by pitting one more time.

 

If HAM had clean air, yes. HAM was quite a bit faster than HUL in clean air.

[SpaMaster]

I´ve never said otherwise, he did what he had to do, impressive performance. I would give him a well deserved 10.

I understand your points as well. Drivers like Hamilton and Alonso may rightly feel frustrated over their situations. The only consolation is they have they have each other (and Raikkonen for those who rate him high) for company. It's not like only one of the top 3/4 drivers are left out and others are fighting it out at the front. It's definitely difficult.

 

[Nonesuch]

Christian Horner, talking about the Jeep:

 

 

"It wasn't great, but thankfully it happened on part of the track where there was plenty of time for the drivers to react," he said. "Sebastian was the first to come across it, but with the straight being so long there he thankfully had enough pre-warning to know that he was there."

 

Did Webber get a post-warning that his car was on fire?

 

Anyway, I just noticed that Pic finished 14th for Caterham, and to end up in front of Marussia they apparently need a 13th place. Pretty close.

[Raikkonen94]

I understand your points as well. Drivers like Hamilton and Alonso may rightly feel frustrated over their situations. The only consolation is they have they have each other (and Raikkonen for those who rate him high) for company. It's not like only one of the top 3/4 drivers are left out and others are fighting it out at the front. It's definitely difficult.

 

 

Yeah Lewis said the same thing after fighting with Kimi for P10 or P11 at Monza. It's a shame, as the battles between these top drivers are great to watch. Much respect between most drivers which also requires lots of spatial awareness.

[halifaxf1fan]

Hamilton considers himself too good for fifth place in today's race.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24419864

Hamilton may have just been up against a very talented driver. Hulkenburg is no pushover.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 06 October 2013 - 19:39.

[skc]

I remember the time when Seb was stuck behind Jensen's McLaren and many people laughed at how long it took Seb to overtake him.

 

Well, at least he managed to. Meanwhile the master overtaker failed to get past a Sauber. 

[stillOrange]

If you remember how stupid these comments were, why did you choose to repeat them? Doesn't that make you look equally stupid now?

[nosecone]

I remember the time when Seb was stuck behind Jensen's McLaren and many people laughed at how long it took Seb to overtake him.

 

Well, at least he managed to. Meanwhile the master overtaker failed to get past a Sauber. 

 

I'm neither a fan of Vettel nor of Hamilton, but i think we just can't compare different situations in that way. We haven't seen Vettel overtaking Hulkenberg today.

And we have seen how much better traction the Sauber had at the re-pass of Hulkenberg

Edited by nosecone, 06 October 2013 - 20:06.

[joshb]

Christian Horner, talking about the Jeep:

 

 

Did Webber get a post-warning that his car was on fire?

 

Anyway, I just noticed that Pic finished 14th for Caterham, and to end up in front of Marussia they apparently need a 13th place. Pretty close.

Yeah I bet Caterham/Marussia got excited when they see Massa spinning towards Alonso and the rest, but somehow they all survived. On another day you could have had 4 or 5 wiped out there. Quite an attritional race today actually

[skc]

If you remember how stupid these comments were, why did you choose to repeat them? Doesn't that make you look equally stupid now?

 

No. Just putting a mirror up. Not pretty is it? 

[SR388]

Good to see jeep lead a few laps. They've had a tough season.

[HeadFirst]

If you follow F1 for great racing, there was certainly more than enough to satisfy today.

[gillesthegenius]

Great drive from the Hulk. Is he on his way to, god willing, becoming Seb's arch rival? If he is, I think f1 fans could, god willing, be in for a real treat in the forthcoming years.

And Yabbadabbadooo btw.

[Asterion]

hahaha

[Neolew]

Great drive from the Hulk. Is he on his way to, god willing, becoming Seb's arch rival? If he is, I think f1 fans could, god willing, be in for a real treat in the forthcoming years.

And Yabbadabbadooo btw.

 

 

Hulk is overrated. korea race the sauber had a good first sector setup causing the Hulk train . You seriously don't think the hulk held off Alonso and Hamilton because of his talents do you?

 

Kamui Kobayashi achieved More than Hulkenberg in the same midfield cars and he has no F1 seat..

Overrated Hulkenberg in decent midfield cars has raced in 50+ GP events but is yet to reach the podium,  why is he hyped? He came close to a possible win in Brazil last year but decided to use his limited skills to attempt a poor overtaking maneuver crashing into Lewis Hamilton instead. 

 

Also i think its unfair for people to automatically assume Nico is entitled to a 2014 drive, Koba drove to an amazing 3rd at Suzuka last year holding off Button only to be told he won't be driving for Sauber next season.. I am not hating on the Hulk but i think he gets too much praise and unfairly worshiped by the press 

Edited by Neolew, 07 October 2013 - 02:45.

[sennafan24]

 You seriously don't think the hulk held off Alonso and Hamilton because of his talents do you?

 

Not entirely he did have the traction to excel in the right places, but he did keep his cool and his timing and positioning was outstanding.

 

I think Hulky is hyped because of what he gets out his machinery, he would have gotten a podium last year in Brazil if he had not lost his head with Lewis late in the race. These mistakes were not present on Sunday, he was much less erratic in defending from Lewis.

 

I am not sure how good Hulky is, but I would say he deserves a go at Lotus. He could turn out to be dam good, either way the past 2 years he has earned it merit in my opinion.

Edited by sennafan24, 07 October 2013 - 03:36.

[Alfisti]

Found out Vettel won and didn't watch. Meh.

 

fail

[SenorSjon]

Yeah I bet Caterham/Marussia got excited when they see Massa spinning towards Alonso and the rest, but somehow they all survived. On another day you could have had 4 or 5 wiped out there. Quite an attritional race today actually

 

And the one ending up with a penalty for that was a Caterham.

[DarthWillie]

Hulk is overrated. korea race the sauber had a good first sector setup causing the Hulk train . You seriously don't think the hulk held off Alonso and Hamilton because of his talents do you?

 

Kamui Kobayashi achieved More than Hulkenberg in the same midfield cars and he has no F1 seat..

Overrated Hulkenberg in decent midfield cars has raced in 50+ GP events but is yet to reach the podium,  why is he hyped? He came close to a possible win in Brazil last year but decided to use his limited skills to attempt a poor overtaking maneuver crashing into Lewis Hamilton instead. 

 

Also i think its unfair for people to automatically assume Nico is entitled to a 2014 drive, Koba drove to an amazing 3rd at Suzuka last year holding off Button only to be told he won't be driving for Sauber next season.. I am not hating on the Hulk but i think he gets too much praise and unfairly worshiped by the press 

this year no car other than a Ferrari/Lotus/Red Bull reached the poduim, so getting third is harder than ever. Hulk is learning, sure brazil last year was stupid, but every driver has those moments. He is quite impressive with a very mediocre car.

[sopa]

Great drive from the Hulk. Is he on his way to, god willing, becoming Seb's arch rival? If he is, I think f1 fans could, god willing, be in for a real treat in the forthcoming years.

And Yabbadabbadooo btw.

 

If Hulkenberg became Vettel's arch-rival, I suspect it would frustrate quite a few people, because then there would be two Germans at the top not allowing others to get a look in. I know many people don't support drivers based on nationality, so they deal with it like with the Spanish Armada in MotoGP, but some groups of people would certainly be annoyed.

[Radion]

If Hulkenberg became Vettel's arch-rival, I suspect it would frustrate quite a few people, because then there would be two Germans at the top not allowing others to get a look in. I know many people don't support drivers based on nationality, so they deal with it like with the Spanish Armada in MotoGP, but some groups of people would certainly be annoyed.

What a stupid thing to do. 

[dau]

Hulk is overrated. korea race the sauber had a good first sector setup causing the Hulk train . You seriously don't think the hulk held off Alonso and Hamilton because of his talents do you?

 

Kamui Kobayashi achieved More than Hulkenberg in the same midfield cars and he has no F1 seat..[...]

No, he didn't. The C31 was a much better car than anything Hulk has driven so far. I like Koba and would love to have him back, but that is simply wrong.

[MikeV1987]

Hulk is overrated. korea race the sauber had a good first sector setup causing the Hulk train . You seriously don't think the hulk held off Alonso and Hamilton because of his talents do you?

 

Kamui Kobayashi achieved More than Hulkenberg in the same midfield cars and he has no F1 seat..

Overrated Hulkenberg in decent midfield cars has raced in 50+ GP events but is yet to reach the podium,  why is he hyped? He came close to a possible win in Brazil last year but decided to use his limited skills to attempt a poor overtaking maneuver crashing into Lewis Hamilton instead. 

 

Also i think its unfair for people to automatically assume Nico is entitled to a 2014 drive, Koba drove to an amazing 3rd at Suzuka last year holding off Button only to be told he won't be driving for Sauber next season.. I am not hating on the Hulk but i think he gets too much praise and unfairly worshiped by the press 

Hulk train? You mean defending his position? He performed perfectly while under pressure by two world champions in MUCH better cars. If anybody in your post is over rated, it is definitely Kobayashi. 

[Rinehart]

Hamilton considers himself too good for fifth place in today's race.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24419864

 

I appreciate its the norm that drivers believe they are the best, but the point Hamilton is making here is seriously arrogant imo.

 

There are 4 other drivers on the grid with equal or more WDC's than him (Vettel, Kimi, Alonso, Button). 3 who have shown they can race with him and match or exceed his points/win tally (Rosberg, Button, Alonso) and others such as Webber and Massa have shown they can beat him in equal equipment on a given day.

 

Hamilton might be the fastest over a lap and might be rated top 3 overall but all the evidence shows he is not significantly better than 7 drivers I have listed above, to the extent that racing in 5th place is beneath him. 

 

Hamilton loves to praise Alonso and then climb into his box but it seems Hamilton has forgotten that he is racing with some of the worlds best drivers. 

[active]

and others such as Webber and Massa have shown they can beat him in equal equipment on a given day.

 

 

 

When were they team mates with Hamilton? Never right? What a ridiculous statement. Hamilton see's himself and Alonso as the two best drivers on the grid, as do many people, maybe even the majority, so his comments make perfect sense. He has proven to be clearly better than all those drivers you listed, other than Alonso.

 

Its obvious that Alonso and Hamilton feel the same way Senna did in the early 90s, and also Schumacher in the  90s, when they were frustrated at being dominated by Newey machines. History just repeating.

Edited by active, 07 October 2013 - 09:57.

[Diablobb81]

When were they team mates with Hamilton? Never right? What a ridiculous statement. Hamilton see's himself and Alonso as the two best drivers on the grid, as do many people, maybe even the majority, so his comments make perfect sense. He has proven to be clearly better than all those drivers you listed, other than Alonso.

[rasul]

Hulk is overrated. korea race the sauber had a good first sector setup causing the Hulk train . You seriously don't think the hulk held off Alonso and Hamilton because of his talents do you?

 

Kamui Kobayashi achieved More than Hulkenberg in the same midfield cars and he has no F1 seat..

Overrated Hulkenberg in decent midfield cars has raced in 50+ GP events but is yet to reach the podium,  why is he hyped? He came close to a possible win in Brazil last year but decided to use his limited skills to attempt a poor overtaking maneuver crashing into Lewis Hamilton instead. 

 

Also i think its unfair for people to automatically assume Nico is entitled to a 2014 drive, Koba drove to an amazing 3rd at Suzuka last year holding off Button only to be told he won't be driving for Sauber next season.. I am not hating on the Hulk but i think he gets too much praise and unfairly worshiped by the press 

This. I like Hulk, and I think he drove a great race(DOTD for me), but he is a bit overrated and certainly isn't entitled to a 2014 drive. Kamui Kobayashi did a great job,and still didn't get a drive, despite having a huge fanbase. 

[Jon83]

Hamilton didn't deserve to finish higher than 5th. Grosjean passed him once and Hulk passed him twice.

 

Neolew / Rasul - if Hulk isn't entited to a drive based on his 2 and 3/4 seasons in F1 (race seat) then not many others are either. Perhaps only 4 or 5 actually.

[rasul]

Hamilton didn't deserve to finish higher than 5th. Grosjean passed him once and Hulk passed him twice.

 

Neolew / Rasul - if Hulk isn't entited to a drive based on his 2 and 3/4 seasons in F1 (race seat) then not many others are either. Perhaps only 4 or 5 actually.

I think Hulk deserves a seat in F1--he's certainly better than a few drivers who will race in 2014--but I won't go as far as to say that he's entitled to it just because he did a solid job in a pretty good midfield car and had a few excellent drives. There have been plenty of drivers who did an excellent job but didn't find a seat. No one is entitled to anything. Just like Lewis isn't entitled to finish higher than 5th. Just like Alonso isn't entitled to have the best car. In the current F1 there are no bad drivers, strictly speaking.  Given a good car, most of them have the potential to achieve a lot. I think the biggest difference between drivers is their mental strength--how they can handle the title pressure, and that we can only find out when drivers get a top seat. Until then, all of them are unproven. So far, Hulk is doing as good a job as Perez last year. He's certainly a good, solid driver. Whether he's a champion material or not, we'll see only if he gets into a top car. Until then, I'll reserve my judgement.

Edited by rasul, 07 October 2013 - 10:56.

[Fontainebleau]

Hulk train? You mean defending his position? He performed perfectly while under pressure by two world champions in MUCH better cars. If anybody in your post is over rated, it is definitely Kobayashi. 

Nope.

[Myrvold]

Great drive from the Hulk. Is he on his way to, god willing, becoming Seb's arch rival? If he is, I think f1 fans could, god willing, be in for a real treat in the forthcoming years.

If this 'God' ain't able to take time off all the wars, and sick people in the world, I'm not sure he is willing to take time to make F1 fans get a "real treat" 

[stillOrange]

No. Just putting a mirror up. Not pretty is it?

I wouldn't know

[Silvercheese]

Interesting discussion going on with Alonso supposedly running off track on every lap at turn 6 and gaining an advantage.

 

 

 

 

Goes on and on, they say this goes through the whole GP 

Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 13:04.

[Nonesuch]

It'll probably depend on the bumpiness of the kerbs and the traction the cars get off of them if it's really an advantage, but I agree that it shouldn't be done. The track is, after all, defined by the white lines. I suppose the most constructive way to handle this is for the stewards to remind Alonso of this when they next meet in Japan, and put him on notice, so to speak.

[DampMongoose]

Interesting discussion going on with Alonso supposedly running off track on every lap at turn 6 and gaining an advantage.

 

 

 

 

Goes on and on, they say this goes through the whole GP 

 

One possibility is that similar to the Italian GP at Monza last year, the stewards in the drivers briefing made all the drivers aware they would not be punished for putting 4 wheels off the circuit at the exit to Ascari.  According to Martin Brundle this was also the case with T4 at Hungary this year.  I'm not saying that was the case here but it's possible, unfortuantely the spectators are very rarely informed of such decisions.

[skc]

It'll probably depend on the bumpiness of the kerbs and the traction the cars get off of them if it's really an advantage, but I agree that it shouldn't be done. The track is, after all, defined by the white lines. I suppose the most constructive way to handle this is for the stewards to remind Alonso of this when they next meet in Japan, and put him on notice, so to speak.

 

Which is fine, provided nobody else gets punished without the affordance of the same notice.

[muramasa]

They shouldnt put kerb and concrete turf there if that area should be outside the track.

Like Suzuka's spoon entry, put no nothing, if you step out of white line you ride on the grass and spin.

 

it's abit silly to tell drivers how to use kerb and define outside and inside the track, i think. If they can drive there and gain advantage, they just go there. I always consider kerbs that dont punish you is perfectly inside the track. Otherwise you'll end up either penalizing all drivers or specifying track area and setting different rules for each and every corner. That's stupid. Let the physical track config of each corner define the outside and inside the track, not the damn "interpretation".

[Wanderer]

He has proven to be clearly better than all those drivers you listed, other than Alonso.

 

 

This year will be the fifth consecutive year the team bosses will rate Vettel as having been better than Hamilton, so your claim is somewhat debatable, to say the least.

 

 

Its obvious that Alonso and Hamilton feel the same way Senna did in the early 90s, and also Schumacher in the  90s, when they were frustrated at being dominated by Newey machines. History just repeating.

 

And what did Senna do? He got himself a Newey car. What happened when Hamilton tried the same? Fail. 

Edited by Wanderer, 07 October 2013 - 14:33.

[CrashPad]

I find it extremely odd how some people can't be bothered to watch the races, yet they find time to post about it here 

[SpaMaster]

When were they team mates with Hamilton? Never right? What a ridiculous statement. Hamilton see's himself and Alonso as the two best drivers on the grid, as do many people, maybe even the majority, so his comments make perfect sense. He has proven to be clearly better than all those drivers you listed, other than Alonso.

 

Edited by SpaMaster, 07 October 2013 - 15:15.

[Shiroo]

 

This year will be the fifth consecutive year the team bosses will rate Vettel as having been better than Hamilton, so your claim is somewhat debatable, to say the least.

 

 

And what did Senna do? He got himself a Newey car. What happened when Hamilton tried the same? Fail. 

 

completely agree with that. It is like saying that Webber is on Pic level or so.

weren't Webber supposed to be one of big guys, at least some people were marking him like that back then when he was young (oh god, Mark was young )

[active]

 

This year will be the fifth consecutive year the team bosses will rate Vettel as having been better than Hamilton, so your claim is somewhat debatable, to say the least.

 

 

Team bosses are not the gospel word and either way its no surprise they would believe this considering how flattered Vettel has been at redbull by his machinery, sort of like Massa was rated as one of the best on the grid when he spent a number of seasons in rocketships, yet as we saw how things turn around.