91 replies to this topic

[garoidb]

This is very close between Mercedes and Ferrari and, to a lesser extent, Lotus. For me, it is probably the main point of interest for the rest of the season since the stakes are fairly high financially (particularly for Lotus, I would have thought). It tightened up some more today, with Ferrari and Mercedes now separated by only one point, and Lotus reeling them both in a bit. This is not being talked about much, but to me it seems to be an important piece of context for the race between Hamilton and Alonso today, for example. The WCC has important implications, not just for teams but for drivers. It is almost certainly why Massa lost his seat. Interestingly, the combined results of Alonso and Raikkonen this year would put them well in the lead of the WCC if they were in the same team.

 

As of now, the standings are:

 

Red Bull    402

 

Ferrari       284

Mercedes  283

Lotus         239

 

The next little scrap is interesting too.

 

McLaren     89

Force India 62

 

 

 

 

[Silvercheese]

You should put Vettel by himself in there to make things more interesting ;)

[OccasionalCommenter]

Mercedes seems to have the best car (out of those three), but their drivers haven't delivered recently. Alonso is currently carrying Ferrari by himself and Grosjean was horrible earlier this season, but he seems to have found his form recently.

Edited by OccasionalCommenter, 06 October 2013 - 11:42.

[DevilsCry]

Ferrari        284

Mercedes  283

Vettel         272

 

Now that's what I find more interesting. Can Vettel win WCC all by himself?

[exogenesis1203]

Mercedes seems to have the best car (out of those three), but their drivers haven't delivered recently. Alonso is currently carrying Ferrari by himself and Grosjean was horrible earlier this season, but he seems to have found his form recently.

The Mercedes drivers (or entire team really ) frankly should be embarrassed if they end up 3rd in WCC in the end considering the Mercs is a good bit superior and they even have the best pairing on the entire grid.

Edited by exogenesis1203, 06 October 2013 - 12:00.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Will probably go to Mercedes. The extreme tyre issues are gone which means guaranteed top 5 finishes, and Rosberg is also more solid than Massa.

[Diablobb81]

Mercedes seems to have the best car (out of those three), but their drivers haven't delivered recently.

 

How can it be the drivers if the team screwed up the strategy for both in the last two races. The team threw away several podiums.

[Wander]

 

 

McLaren     89

Force India 62

 

I don't think this scrap actually holds any interest anymore as Force India has fallen off completely ever since they changed the tyres. 3 points in 6 races, and I can't see it getting better for them.

 

Hulkenberg seems to be on a mission to beat Toro Rosso all by himself, though, Sauber is now on equal points with TR at 31! Hulk has reeled in 20 points in just 3 races.

 

 

But yes, the battle for 2nd is interesting, even Lotus has an off-chance of taking it if they keep this up, but I think Merc has the best chance just on pure pace. Ferrari has been pretty disappointing lately.

[NexusIcon]

A few more results like today should make it interesting. Let's face it, we're going to need something to spice up the finalé in Brazil.

[Raven8]

Mercedes seems to have the best car (out of those three), but their drivers haven't delivered recently. Alonso is currently carrying Ferrari by himself and Grosjean was horrible earlier this season, but he seems to have found his form recently.

IT's not theMercedes  drivers fault the strategy is bad, and the set up makes them unable to overtake

[Silvercheese]

IT's not theMercedes  drivers fault the strategy is bad, and the set up makes them unable to overtake

 

In a funny way now the Hamilton fans understand what it's like to be a Vettel fan when behind another car which is faster in a straight line lol 

Edited by Silvercheese, 06 October 2013 - 12:14.

[garoidb]

Will probably go to Mercedes. The extreme tyre issues are gone which means guaranteed top 5 finishes, and Rosberg is also more solid than Massa.

 

Mercedes should be favourites, I agree. Nico has comfortably outscored Felipe, but Massa has outscored Grosjean to date. I wouldn't bet on that remaining the situation by the end of the year. Ferrari could, conceivably, drop to fourth.  I am expecting it to be tight at the end of the year. Could Kimi's parting shot to Lotus be to move them ahead of Ferrari in the WCC?

[Mr.Wayne]

 

Ferrari        284

Mercedes  283

Vettel         272

 

Now that's what I find more interesting. Can Vettel win WCC all by himself?

 

 

This is very close between Mercedes and Ferrari and, to a lesser extent, Lotus. For me, it is probably the main point of interest for the rest of the season since the stakes are fairly high financially (particularly for Lotus, I would have thought). It tightened up some more today, with Ferrari and Mercedes now separated by only one point, and Lotus reeling them both in a bit. This is not being talked about much, but to me it seems to be an important piece of context for the race between Hamilton and Alonso today, for example. The WCC has important implications, not just for teams but for drivers. It is almost certainly why Massa lost his seat. Interestingly, the combined results of Alonso and Raikkonen this year would put them well in the lead of the WCC if they were in the same team.

 

As of now, the standings are:

 

Red Bull    402

 

Ferrari       284

Mercedes  283

Lotus         239

 

The next little scrap is interesting too.

 

McLaren     89

Force India 62

That is an interesting one (the fight for P2). Earlier in the season, it appeared (up to Spain?) that Ferrari was the car to have, and that they were not leading both championships by then due to their own doing.  However, whatever right they were doing, they started acting as if that didn't matter, and have quite clearly lost the plot. Hope they find it for the final 5.

Then we have Mercedes, which up to Hungary looked as the fastest car out there.  Not only they were the dominating force in Qualifying, but after their "we are not cheating" tyre test, they were a real threat for the races, as their string of poles, victories and podiums from Monaco to Hungary proves.

And then, there is Lotus.  Never the fastest car on Saturday, never the fastest car on Sunday, but very, VERY solid with their tyres all year long, and always "almost there" in terms of pace.  They won the season opener, and since then, have been getting podiums they shouldn't have had given their saturdays.  Probably, right now (and this might change in a weekend's time) the most solid of the three teams facing the end of the season.  However, 45 points is a long stretch in 5 races... 

 

I would guess that Mercedes will continue to be mercedes and have the odd setup error (or driver error) here and there, and let Ferrari grab the P2 again.  However if Merc manages to keep it together, I guess the order will be Merc-Ferrari-Lotus.

 

 

And on the other fight (FI-McLaren) I think right now it seems like McLaren have the best car on race day, so I guess that one will go to Woking.

[Mr.Wayne]

IT's not theMercedes  drivers fault the strategy is bad, and the set up makes them unable to overtake

They are going the same route as RedBull: sacrifice top speed for superior downforce and a shot at the front of the grid.

They have been quite good at being upfront, and up until recently, their top speed was not bad at all! Wondering what has triggered their change of direction, though.

[Farhannn15]

I think the pairing of Mercedes is more consistent and more balanced which is good as if one drivers has a bad result the other driver will probably do well

[sopa]

Mercedes has a more balanced driver pairing and the car seems to be going fast, but as an all-around team Ferrari is better, which may turn things in their favour. Same stuff as last year Ferrari v McLaren. Ferrari was uber-consistent and reliable and in the end took the second place. Mercedes is far from being a complete team, which some strategy, reliability and tyre issues from the last few races show.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Mercedes should be favourites, I agree. Nico has comfortably outscored Felipe, but Massa has outscored Grosjean to date. I wouldn't bet on that remaining the situation by the end of the year. Ferrari could, conceivably, drop to fourth.  I am expecting it to be tight at the end of the year. Could Kimi's parting shot to Lotus be to move them ahead of Ferrari in the WCC?

Suzuka and Interlagos should favour Ferrari again, so expect Alonso to finish at least second behind Vettel in those races. Grosjean is still a good 17 points behind Massa and Alonso a good 30 odd points. Something remarkable has to happen for Lotus to overtake Ferrari I think.

[fisssssi]

 

Ferrari        284

Mercedes  283

Vettel         272

 

Now that's what I find more interesting. Can Vettel win WCC all by himself?

 

 

Can we not turn every thread in to a Vettel circlejerk?

[Anonymous]

At the end of the season:

 

Red Bull

Mercedes

Lotus/Ferrari

[RealRacing]

Personally, I think the battle for 2nd in the WDC is more interesting with 3 top drivers fighting it out. If Merc and Lotus can race like Korea in the last races, FA will be under serious threat from KR and LH.

[garoidb]

Personally, I think the battle for 2nd in the WDC is more interesting with 3 top drivers fighting it out. If Merc and Lotus can race like Korea in the last races, FA will be under serious threat from KR and LH.

 

Yes, I am interested in that too, but the WCC is the one which pays the money. It will really matter to the teams. 2nd, 3rd or 4th place in the WDC is probably not as important to the drivers.

Edited by garoidb, 06 October 2013 - 18:16.

[SpaMaster]

The drivers are the reason Mercedes is this close. Both Hamilton and Rosberg being a strong pair have made a difference. Massa and Grosjean are to blame for their respective team situations. Fair play to the Mercedes drivers as well. They are totally okay to race with each other and be competitive against each other instead of throwing a fit. They have both helped their team with their attitude.

[keiichi]

I'd say if Massa was a bit more consistent, then Ferrari would be the most likely contender for 2nd in the WCC. Since that is not the case, perhaps Mercedes might be the strongest contender. That said it's strategies have been below par on the last couple of races, so if they keep underperforming relatively to the car and drivers potential they may pay the price.

 

On the other hand Lotus has had some strong performances recently, and if they keep it that way, even though there's a bit of a margin to overcome, they might get it done.

 

All this makes me realise that if you ignore Vettel and Red Bull's borefest at the front, the battle between Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus in the WCC and Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen in the WDC has been truly exciting to watch. Each have had their up and downs, but as a whole, they've been very close performance wise.

[rockdude101]

What's the point? 2nd is not 1st.

I think people would do a lot better and approach the current season as if it's already ended and these are just PR races to keep the sponsors happy, rather than any racing value attached to them.

[keiichi]

There's still money involved. And as much as teams like Ferrari and Merc have high resources, all the money will be welcomed. Not to mention Lotus.

[Radion]

The LWB car lotus introduced seems to work very fine. Both RAI and especially GRO showed it's a step forward. Compared to mercedes and ferrari, they seem to have made the biggest step in terms of bringing new,functioning updates for the last part of the season. Expecting more from them.

 

So I do believe they'd have a good shot at 2nd place, especially because GRO seems to have found that extra special to be consistently fighting for places at the front, thus delivering important points for wcc.

Edited by Radion, 06 October 2013 - 19:25.

[SpaMaster]

What's the point? 2nd is not 1st.

I think people would do a lot better and approach the current season as if it's already ended and these are just PR races to keep the sponsors happy, rather than any racing value attached to them.

Lot of money to the team. A team particularly like Lotus needs it. They all would drop the development soon anyway, it would be mostly with defending with what they have got and making up ground on anything extra they have got.

 

[RealRacing]

What's the point? 2nd is not 1st.
I think people would do a lot better and approach the current season as if it's already ended and these are just PR races to keep the sponsors happy, rather than any racing value attached to them.

As someone mentioned in another thread, it's about the process and I agree. If I can watch good racing at any end of the pack, I don't really care if the championship is decided or not. At the end of the day, it depends on what each person wants out of F1, but if all that matters is the end result, we might as well add the best qualy laps for each driver on every circuit and the one with the lowest number wins...

[Music Lover]

The drivers are the reason Mercedes is this close. Both Hamilton and Rosberg being a strong pair have made a difference. Massa and Grosjean are to blame for their respective team situations. Fair play to the Mercedes drivers as well. They are totally okay to race with each other and be competitive against each other instead of throwing a fit. They have both helped their team with their attitude.

No doubt Merc has the best driver pair, it's quite embarrassing to read the points table where Web, Mas, Gro is NOWHERE close to the 1st driver. And is was same during 2012.

The other teams must be terrified what Ferrari could do 2014 with a half decent car with Alo and Rai driving it!! 

It's not just their speed, it's their race craft bringing points out of nothing.

 

For 2013 I think it will be RB, Merc, Fer, and Lotus on 4th 

[Seanspeed]

Its not even much of a fight.  Mercedes have a much better car.  If they cant win 2nd, they've failed hugely.

[turssi]

WCC is RBR's for sure.

 

2nd in WCC is still open between Merc, Ferrari and Lotus.

 

I think 5th goes to McLaren.

 

6th is open between FI, Sauber and TR.

 

Williams should take 9th, while Marussia is 10th and Caterham 11th.

[KingTiger]

Lotus only has a chance if Pirelli keep bringing cheese tires that are completely unsuitable for the circuit.

[Longtimefan]

Meh..

 

The person in 2nd place is the first one of the losers   ..as someone once said 

[EthanM]

Meh..

 

The person in 2nd place is the first one of the losers   ..as someone once said 

 

except in this case it's a team not a person, and they get a few dozen million off Bernie ;)

[discover23]

Its not even much of a fight. Mercedes have a much better car. If they cant win 2nd, they've failed hugely.

I don't know but to me Lotus and Merc are equal second ... Ferrari slightly behind them .

[Seanspeed]

Meh..

 

The person in 2nd place is the first one of the losers   ..as someone once said 

Worst phrase in motorsport by far.

 

 

I don't know but to me Lotus and Merc are equal second ... Ferrari slightly behind them .

Maybe.  I think Ferrari and Lotus are close on average.  But Lotus are a slight ways behind in the standings.

Edited by Seanspeed, 06 October 2013 - 23:30.

[RealRacing]

Its not even much of a fight.  Mercedes have a much better car.  If they cant win 2nd, they've failed hugely.

Mercedes have had a better qualy car, not necessarily a better race car. Ferrari had the better, if not best, car at the beginning of the season. If they failed to materialize back then, it was their own fault.

[Seanspeed]

Mercedes have had a better qualy car, not necessarily a better race car. Ferrari had the better, if not best, car at the beginning of the season. If they failed to materialize back then, it was their own fault.

Yea, you said the same sort of thing about Red Bull vs Ferrari last year.

 

Mercedes don't have the same sort of pace they do in the races that they do in qualifying, but they've still got a great race car with great traction, power, downforce and drivers.  I think they definitely have a better overall car and generally have better opportunities during a weekend, unlike the Ferrari, where it requires one hell of a drive to achieve anything noteworthy.

[syolase]

Mercedes seems to have the best car (out of those three), but their drivers haven't delivered recently. Alonso is currently carrying Ferrari by himself and Grosjean was horrible earlier this season, but he seems to have found his form recently.

You misspelled "their Pitwall"

[RealRacing]

Yea, you said the same sort of thing about Red Bull vs Ferrari last year.
 
Mercedes don't have the same sort of pace they do in the races that they do in qualifying, but they've still got a great race car with great traction, power, downforce and drivers.  I think they definitely have a better overall car and generally have better opportunities during a weekend, unlike the Ferrari, where it requires one hell of a drive to achieve anything noteworthy.

I think if we look at the whole year, Ferrari has had much better race pace in the beginning and until a couple of races even. They just failed to materialize that early advantage.

Of course, if you are a true believer in the "Ferrari=Minardi" theory, then yeah, Mercedes is faster than Ferrari.

[Seanspeed]

I think if we look at the whole year, Ferrari has had much better race pace in the beginning and until a couple of races even. They just failed to materialize that early advantage.

Of course, if you are a true believer in the "Ferrari=Minardi" theory, then yeah, Mercedes is faster than Ferrari.

You're impossible.

[teejay]

Yea, you said the same sort of thing about Red Bull vs Ferrari last year.

 

Mercedes don't have the same sort of pace they do in the races that they do in qualifying, but they've still got a great race car with great traction, power, downforce and drivers.  I think they definitely have a better overall car and generally have better opportunities during a weekend, unlike the Ferrari, where it requires one hell of a drive to achieve anything noteworthy.

Did you watch yesterday?

 

A Sauber made the mercedes look stupid on traction.. A Sauber.

 

Power - the merc power theory has long been proved false.

[Juggles]

Meh..

 

The person in 2nd place is the first one of the losers   ..as someone once said 

 

Does that make Hulkenberg the third of the losers yesterday? Context is everything.

[Cool Beans]

No doubt Merc has the best driver pair, it's quite embarrassing to read the points table where Web, Mas, Gro is NOWHERE close to the 1st driver. And is was same during 2012.

The other teams must be terrified what Ferrari could do 2014 with a half decent car with Alo and Rai driving it!! 

It's not just their speed, it's their race craft bringing points out of nothing.

 

For 2013 I think it will be RB, Merc, Fer, and Lotus on 4th 

 

2nd driver points %:

Vet / Web - 272 / 130 = 47.79%

Alo / Mas - 195 / 89 = 45.64%

Rai / Gro - 167 / 72 = 43.11%

Ham / Ros - 161 / 122 = 75.77%

 

I expect Kimi & Alonso to be clearly within 90%. Should be fun.

[Shiroo]

If we can go by the form of last 2 races I would say that ideally it would be:

 

RBR

 

 

Lotus

Mercedes

Ferrari

 

That would be the pecking order, so I expect similar in WCC. First of all, if not the **** up from the team with Grosjean in Singapore and Kimi shitty performance there due to back (he still amazes me that he raced) then they would probably grab there double podium. Or at least 3&4 even with Kimi starting 13th, they just needed Gro to finish.

In Korea, they were clearly 2nd best team. They have good downforce package (not on level RBR though) and they have superior engine than to their 2 closest rivals (if someone think that Renault isn't superior to Mercedes and Ferrari then he is delusional, I believe that RBR advantage might come from the engine tbh).

 

On less sport-side, I would be really sad if team like Lotus, that we can count as top team would go back in next year due to lack of cash. They showed that even with some heads gone (like Allison) they can still bring good updates that keep them ahead (LWB as an example). They improved the car more than Mercedes and Ferrari in my opinion with more financial problems. So really big kudos to the guys at the Enstone. 

 

So I wish them the best and that 2nd WCC, just for the sake of them staying where they are. That few millions will be way more of help for them, than for Ferrari or Mercedes that both have big companies behind them.

[Boxerevo]

I reckon Mercedes will probably get it by having the faster qualifying car and the best duo from those teams.

 

But no way i will agree that Lotus and Ferrari Race pace over the year was inferior to Mercedes,Race days is a war and many times Alonso,Raikkonen and Grosjean came overtaking people ahead like beasts,Mercedes still only in the fighting because they are not eating the Pirelli tyres like before

Edited by Boxerevo, 07 October 2013 - 06:56.

[Seanspeed]

Did you watch yesterday?

 

A Sauber made the mercedes look stupid on traction.. A Sauber.

 

Power - the merc power theory has long been proved false.

It was one race where one car did seem to have great traction compared to the Mercedes.  That does not disprove all the other countless examples of the Merc having absolutely fantastic 'power-to-the-ground' skills. 

 

As for the 'power theory', when was it proved false?  I must have been sleeping when that happened, because its certainly not in my memory.  Seems more likely a small group of people have managed to convince themselves that it isn't true, but I think most people will still recognize it as very likely the most powerful on the grid.

[sopa]

I don't see, how is Mercedes superior to Ferrari. They still have a worse tyre-wear rate even if they have improved.

 

In Belgium Hamilton started from pole, but Alonso passed and beat him easily.

In Italy Hamilton had trouble, but Rosberg couldn't keep up with neither Alonso nor Massa.

In Singapore Mercedes was racing ahead, but it is highly suggested that they couldn't follow the Ferrari/Lotus strategy, because "McLaren" would have happened to them and they would not have managed to extend their stint that long, thus needing to pit again for tyres.

In Korea Mercedes obviously looked stronger, but as Hamilton problems showed, they are still sensitive to tyres.

[Music Lover]

2nd driver points %:

Vet / Web - 272 / 130 = 47.79%

Alo / Mas - 195 / 89 = 45.64%

Rai / Gro - 167 / 72 = 43.11%

Ham / Ros - 161 / 122 = 75.77%

 

I expect Kimi & Alonso to be clearly within 90%. Should be fun.

wow, I didn't thought the differences were THAT big!!  Bus isn't Ham/Ros quite close if you remove the technical issues Ros had?

[DevilsCry]

Vettel 297
Ferrari 297
Mercedes 287