34 replies to this topic

[Forma1]

Sebastian Vettel won the Korean GP while managing a 5 second lead over most of the race. When the second-placed Romain tried to close in on him, he immediately responded. Seb was intructed via the radio by Rocky to prevent his tyres almost in every second lap. However, he never ever showed any big issues at the end of the stints, he was always very fast towards them. 

On the other hand, Mark Webber was tremendiously fast once in clean air, I can remember he posted the fastest time on heavily used tyres when he once get rid of Fernando, Nico and Kimi. It suggest RB had load of pace in the bag. I think RB had an advantage of 6 tenths per lap over the second fastest. It is the same advantage they showed or could have showed in Spa and Monza, clearly in Singapure it was about 1,5-2 seconds.

What do you think? How much of an advantage did RB have this time?

[Arcadi]

It's about three, three and a half fingers.

[Nonesuch]

For some context, the fastest laps:

 

[midgrid]

Are the green and red colours of significance?

[ViMaMo]

No wonder, finger boy fingers the grid. 

[ArkZ]

We will never know how much RB could push, unless something happen like in Singapore when he had to make a gap. In Korea it was 0,5s at least, that was the difference with which Vettel made a gap, BUT on the opening laps when Vettel tried to run out of DRS zones it was more:

1 lap after the start: 2,1s

1 lap after 1# SC period 1,5s

1 lap after 2# SC period 1,3s

This is time diff against second Grosjean.

Edited by ArkZ, 06 October 2013 - 15:17.

[V3TT3L]

You can see the importance of front row for RB.

 

Seb got clean air while Mark got traffic all the time, couldn't overtake the Hulk train.

[krobinson]

Great advantage once again. As it has been for 5 years now.

[Nonesuch]

Are the green and red colours of significance?

 

Yes, I think those are the teams and drivers who've won a championship. The table is from StatsF1.com, and that's how they seem to do it.

Edited by Nonesuch, 06 October 2013 - 16:25.

[SpaMaster]

Oh my God, so what? RB has a faster car. Let others do better job. You have been sounding lately almost as if it is a mistake of RB if they make faster cars. They should congratulated, not criticized or complained.

 

If RB produces such cars so consistently, all drivers should try to go there. Funnily enough, Vettel is the one the best team wants. That says something about Vettel. So, it is not such a discredit to Vettel that he is put together with such a good car. There is a reason why he is there. Even then, F1 has never been just about the driver. It has always been about both driver and car. Driver with most championships or most wins are not necessarily the undisputed no. 1. One must live with such results and accept things the way are. Too much frustration on Vettel or RB is pointless.

Edited by SpaMaster, 06 October 2013 - 16:40.

[Lucass]

I think that they had quite an advantage with that guy behind the wheel.

Perfect start, never put a wheel wrong, simply excellence something every true F1 fan should appreciate according to that Brundle dude.

[RosannaG]

Oh my God, so what? RB has a faster car. Let others do better job. You have been sounding lately almost as if it is a mistake of RB if they make faster cars. They should congratulated, not criticized or complained.

 

If RB produces such cars so consistently, all drivers should try to go there. Funnily enough, Vettel is the one the best team wants. That says something about Vettel. So, it is not such a discredit to Vettel that he is put together with such a good car. There is a reason why he is there. Even then, F1 has never been just about the driver. It has always been about both driver and car. Driver with most championships or most wins are not necessarily the undisputed no. 1. One must live with such results and accept things the way are. Too much frustration on Vettel or RB is pointless.

 

 

I think that they had quite an advantage with that guy behind the wheel.

Perfect start, never put a wheel wrong, simply excellence something every true F1 fan should appreciate according to that Brundle dude.

 

 

I can't agree more! 

[apoka]

We will never know how much RB could push, unless something happen like in Singapore when he had to make a gap. In Korea it was 0,5s at least, that was the difference with which Vettel made a gap, BUT on the opening laps when Vettel tried to run out of DRS zones it was more:

1 lap after the start: 2,1s

1 lap after 1# SC period 1,5s

1 lap after 2# SC period 1,3s

This is time diff against second Grosjean.

 

When using those numbers, you have to factor in that cars cannot physically be in the same place and the aero effects. In other words: The gap after lap 1 is an indicator, but not the best one.

 

I just picked two races for which I remembered Vettel was behind:

 

P1 (Hamilton) Hungary 1.1 seconds gap to P2 (Vettel) after lap 1

P1 (Hamilton) Silverstone 0.9 seconds gap to P2 (Vettel) after lap 1

 

RB/Vettel is good at building those gaps, but don't mistake those numbers to be the performance gap. This only works if you have material of several laps and there are no special circumstances.

[Gorma]

Second safety car helped Vettel a lot. As Kimi said Lotus could have made it to the end with those tyres. I don't think Vettel could have.

[ArkZ]

When using those numbers, you have to factor in that cars cannot physically be in the same place and the aero effects. In other words: The gap after lap 1 is an indicator, but not the best one.

 

I just picked two races for which I remembered Vettel was behind:

 

P1 (Hamilton) Hungary 1.1 seconds gap to P2 (Vettel) after lap 1

P1 (Hamilton) Silverstone 0.9 seconds gap to P2 (Vettel) after lap 1

 

RB/Vettel is good at building those gaps, but don't mistake those numbers to be the performance gap. This only works if you have material of several laps and there are no special circumstances.

Yeah I agree, but unfortunately we don't have enough material from several laps where Vettel pushed flat out, because Vettel method is to do 2-3 quick laps at the start to run out of enemy DRS, then slowly build a gap to around 10s and manage that to the end (good and wise method btw). So we never know how much he has in the bag. I don't believe in those numbers from 1st lap but nor those when he is cruising, the real number is something between ~0,8s IMO.

Edited by ArkZ, 06 October 2013 - 21:01.

[DarthWillie]

For some context, the fastest laps:

 

this is a bit skewed by the fact that Hamilton and Alonso got stuck behind Hulkenberg the laps they could have set faster times.

(don't think they would have beaten Vettel, but I do believe they could have been quicker)

[josepatches]

The package Vettel / Red Bull  is the advantage

[Kingshark]

Lotus had the car to match or even beat Red Bull today, but one driver underperformed in qualifying, and the other underperformed in the race, meaning that neither could challenge Vettel, unfortunately.

[DanardiF1]

Lotus had the car to match or even beat Red Bull today, but one driver underperformed in qualifying, and the other underperformed in the race, meaning that neither could challenge Vettel, unfortunately.

 

Can't agree with that unfortunately. They had the speed to finish where they did, but had no chance of getting near Vettel's Red Bull. Every time Grosjean attempted to address the gap, Vettel would just speed up and take it back.

 

It's a good job for Vettel that he enjoys the winning aspect of F1, because I can't imagine the driving is that interesting at the moment... the car just seems too good to do anything wrong.

[V3TT3L]

RB is a savy bunch 

 

This time they gave TC to Sauber so that Hulk could hold Alonso and Mamy-hamy behind.

[DanardiF1]

RB is a savy bunch 

 

This time they gave TC to Sauber so that Hulk could hold Alonso and Mamy-hamy behind.

 

Clever of them to get it to work with the Ferrari engine too... must have used their Toro Rosso back up from the Vettel days...

[DanardiF1]

RB is a savy bunch 

 

This time they gave TC to Sauber so that Hulk could hold Alonso and Mamy-hamy behind.

 

Was also thinking... have they given it to Ricciardo as well? Because Vergne has been almost Webberesque-ly away from him since Dan was announced at RB for next year!?!

[apoka]

Can't agree with that unfortunately. They had the speed to finish where they did, but had no chance of getting near Vettel's Red Bull. Every time Grosjean attempted to address the gap, Vettel would just speed up and take it back.

 

It's a good job for Vettel that he enjoys the winning aspect of F1, because I can't imagine the driving is that interesting at the moment... the car just seems too good to do anything wrong.

 

Although in this race, the gap to Grosjean wasn't large. It was 2.1 seconds after the first lap - mainly because of the fight Grosjean had with Hamilton. After that it increased to 3.5 seconds over 8 laps. Due to the undercut, Grosjean was within 2 seconds of Vettel. That's not the sort of gap I'd build if I could go faster at will, especially knowing how bad the RB can be in traffic. RB were fastest today, but I believe not by a huge margin.

 

The OP also quoted the pace of Webber in free air. If you look at the lap times, it's fast but not extremely impressive:

http://en.mclarenf-1...an#.UlHNy98feak

He had a lap in which he was 0.8s faster after he went slower (due to traffic) previously in the stint.

Edited by apoka, 07 October 2013 - 05:01.

[Arcadi]

Are the green and red colours of significance?

It's a very good website that you should check out: http://www.statsf1.c...ues/pilote.aspx

 

Warning: you risk spending hours on this, also called the Wikipedia Syndrome.

[mnmracer]

 

 

Q: (Frederic Ferret - L’Equipe) To Romain and Sebastian, do you think the Lotus had the pace to beat the Red Bull today without the safety cars?
RG: I don’t know how much Sebastian left in his pocket. I figured it was pretty close after the... well, while I was close to him, I didn’t want to close the gap too early, because you know that if follow a car by too much, we are all aware that the front tyre is the issue so you lose a lot of downforce from the fronts so you grain even more. So every time he was a little bit ahead I was giving a gap and then following the gap and I was surprised how our pace at one stage... I thought the front tyres were going away but I was surprised our lap time was still improving, so I was catching a little bit back and I think the last stints would have been pretty epic without the safety car, because that was basically the longest one on the tyres and we were going right to the end of their life so that could have been either the gamble to go for the lead... maybe both of us... I don’t know if we would have reacted but it would have been close and no more rubber on the tyres.
SV: Yeah, I think it would have been close. You never know whether the safety car helps you or not. I think Lotus probably had more range today. I think we had a little bit more pace initially but I think Romain could have afforded for the last stint to pit a little bit earlier than us. Maybe we could not react to that immediately because we know that it will be tight for our range, so I think it would have been close without the safety car, but in the end, I think Kimi was obviously quite consistent, doing lap times around 1m 42.0s and we just had two or three tenths in hand. Maybe at the very end, a little bit more. I think he was also controlling the gap to Romain behind but as I said, maybe in terms of raw pace we were a little bit quicker, but in terms of range, the Lotus was again very strong.

[Seanspeed]

You seem to have a very unhealthy obsession over Red Bull man.  Pretty much every single weekend they win, its assured we'll see a topic from you talking about how dominant they were. 

[Kelateboy]

You seem to have a very unhealthy obsession over Red Bull man.  Pretty much every single weekend they win, its assured we'll see a topic from you talking about how dominant they were. 

 

He is obsessed with Vettel..... 

[AnR]

Lotus had the car to match or even beat Red Bull today, but one driver underperformed in qualifying, and the other underperformed in the race, meaning that neither could challenge Vettel, unfortunately.

 

You must mean Mercedes? 

[Shiroo]

Lotus had the car to match or even beat Red Bull today, but one driver underperformed in qualifying, and the other underperformed in the race, meaning that neither could challenge Vettel, unfortunately.

 

Need to agree with that. Raikkonen is better race driver, Grosjean seems to find his pace on quali with the new tyres.

It is also worth mentioning that Lotus seems to caught up in qualifications nowdays. They are usually not close behind RBR (for Grosjean) in Qualifications, and Grosjean is even capable of fighting with Mercedes duo and Webber.

 

Raikkonen has some problems with the tyres, so he isn't as good as Grosjean in qualifications sadly. Yet he is superior to him in the race, he is simply faster than him so far in the race, and has a bit more luck to be honest.

 

Though I would say that Lotus has slightly better tyre management still, that's might be the reason why Vettel was controlling the pace, to do not do additional pit stop. Safety Car helped him a lot though, I would say that Grosjean was capable of undercuttin him.

 

To be absolutely honest, the only car at the very moment (though this might be biased) that could challenge RBR in the race is Lotus. They maybe miss a bit in raw pace, but still are capable of fighting them. Mercedes didn't look good in Singa and Korea. Ferrari is lost case already, Alonso podiums are usually due to major ****ups of Lotus / Mercedes, and his insane skill (I rate him as 2nd best in Formula 1 nowdays).

 

But it is also worth mentioning, that Vettel is simply god damn brilliant driver.

I wouldn't be amazed to be absolutely honest, if all races till the end will be win by Nr 1 driver. Only possibility of him not winning the race at the moment is mechanical failure, then I would expect one of Lotus duo to take a given win.

 

 

For me it is same case as it was in 2011.

[Kelateboy]

To be absolutely honest, the only car at the very moment (though this might be biased) that could challenge RBR in the race is Lotus. They maybe miss a bit in raw pace, but still are capable of fighting them. Mercedes didn't look good in Singa and Korea. Ferrari is lost case already, Alonso podiums are usually due to major ****ups of Lotus / Mercedes, and his insane skill (I rate him as 2nd best in Formula 1 nowdays).

 

I believe Korea is a very isolated case whereby Mercedes were hampered by tyre performance due to track's front limited nature, and RBR were not going all-out during the race for similar reasons. This year, RBR had had tremendous issues in the two previous front limited circuits being China and Barcelona. The fact that mediums were used in Korea also played into Lotus' hands. In Suzuka, Pirelli will be bringing their 2 hardest compounds to the circuit. IMO, Mercedes will challenge RBR again, and Lotus will be slightly behind.

[Winter98]

I believe Korea is a very isolated case whereby Mercedes were hampered by tyre performance due to track's front limited nature, and RBR were not going all-out during the race for similar reasons. This year, RBR had had tremendous issues in the two previous front limited circuits being China and Barcelona. The fact that mediums were used in Korea also played into Lotus' hands. In Suzuka, Pirelli will be bringing their 2 hardest compounds to the circuit. IMO, Mercedes will challenge RBR again, and Lotus will be slightly behind.

Thank you for the informative analysis.

[Cesc]

But it is also worth mentioning, that Vettel is simply god damn brilliant driver.

I wouldn't be amazed to be absolutely honest, if all races till the end will be win by Nr 1 driver. Only possibility of him not winning the race at the moment is mechanical failure, then I would expect one of Lotus duo to take a given win.

 

 

Yes, he is really sensational, his stats are what they are so nothing to say. But again, when he didn't have the best of the cars (that it happens very rarely) he doesn't seem to over-perform the level of his car better than what other drivers do from time to time, that's my biggest problem when rating him. I would love to see him driving a P6 to P10 in quali car to second in standings as Alonso does. In a similar way, I would like to see Alonso with the car advantage that Vettel has for a season at least and see whan comes out of that, if he is capable of doing what Vettel does (I bet that Alonso woould love that too). They are the two best drivers, they have been 1-2 in standings for 3 out of last 4 years, that means something (2013 pending). 

 

Everything came so easy for him. And I don't buy the argument that Vettel-RB works harder then other teams, that's a lack of respect IMO.

Edited by Cesc, 08 October 2013 - 11:43.

[Shiroo]

Yes, he is really sensational, his stats are what they are so nothing to say. But again, when he didn't have the best of the cars (that it happens very rarely) he doesn't seem to over-perform the level of his car better than what other drivers do from time to time, that's my biggest problem when rating him. I would love to see him driving a P6 to P10 in quali car to second in standings as Alonso does. In a similar way, I would like to see Alonso with the car advantage that Vettel has for a season at least and see whan comes out of that, if he is capable of doing what Vettel does (I bet that Alonso woould love that too). They are the two best drivers, they have been 1-2 in standings for 3 out of last 4 years, that means something (2013 pending). 

 

Everything came so easy for him. And I don't buy the argument that Vettel-RB works harder then other teams, that's a lack of respect IMO.

 

I don't buy that as well mate. Especially that RBR seems like to have unlimited resources and the best technical guru in the F1. Yet I can say that at least half of the grid if not more would perform like Webber or worse, if they would sit in Vettel's place.

 

About Alonso, for me it is personally a bit sad. He is probably 2nd best driver on the grid, and each year, he drags that POS car to the places where it shouldn't be most of the time. I have no idea how he got these 3x 2nd before Korea. He is brilliant, but god damn it, there is quite big risk that he will never reach 1st in WDC standings again due to Ferrari being inferior through whole season.

[F1ultimate]

When the scrap for 4th, 5th and 6th is more interesting the the battle for podiums then something is seriously wrong.

 

And this has been true for several of the recent races. 

[Seanspeed]

When the scrap for 4th, 5th and 6th is more interesting the the battle for podiums then something is seriously wrong.

 

And this has been true for several of the recent races. 

Just the luck of the draw there.  Sometimes the battle for 2nd best is closer, sometimes the battle for 3rd best is closer.  And so on.  This has nothing to do with anything under anybody's control.

 

He is obsessed with Vettel..... 

I don't know why you're laughing. 

 

Seems very clear to me its Red Bull.