220 replies to this topic

[Maustinsj]

http://uk.eurosport....346293--f1.html

 

Let battle commence.

[UPRC]

He's right, though. I haven't even bothered to watch the last two races.

[Burtros]

I enjoyed yesterdays race and Im not a Vettel fan. Plenty going on behind him, in fact a great race going on and we didnt see a lot of him on telly.

 

Hamilton wants to shut up, stop whinging about Vettel and Red Bull when he tried to sign for them last year in Canada and concentrate on making Mercedes fast enough to beat them. These persistent comments make him look jealous and distracted.

[Group B]

Well personally I enjoyed it; not because Vettel won but because there was lots of action behind him. I'd prefer close battles for first, but you can't persecute a driver/team for doing the best job.

[Nonesuch]

We can disagree over whether or not 'a lot' of people fell asleep during the race, as Hamilton suggests, but I think his basic point is well made. For example: F1, never a favourite sport of Dutch newspapers, has now been relegated to the small 150 word summaries on the edges of the page, next to local soccer and curling. Even in so short a text, they still find time to note that Vettel won again and that he's on course for another championship. You also see it in threads on these forums, and in the comments on other F1 websites. People can still enjoy the racing, but the fact that Vettel is winning so often, or perhaps I should say: the fact that the other teams are not capable of challenging for the win, is having an effect on the F1 fanbase - and I don't think it's a positive one.

 

I should also note that I definitely do not agree with the writer of that Yahoo Sports article, who argues that 'peeling tyres, two safety car periods and the bizarre sight of a fire vehicle leading the field after Mark Webber's Red Bull went up in flames made it something worth setting the alarm for'. You might as well watch the nearest Monster Truck event if that's the thing that you look for.

Edited by Nonesuch, 07 October 2013 - 11:47.

[stanga]

He's only stating what I was explaining to my wife after the race on Sunday, strangely enough. I switched off during the Schumacher domination and I had more time back then on a Sunday afternoon. I'm now finding myself wondering whether to bother watching or just catch the highlights. Surprised myself, if I'm honest.

[spacekid]

If the only thing that matters to you is who wins the race, never mind the battles and quality of racing going on behind, or whether 2 or more drivers are within 25 points of one another going into whatever has been designated as the final round (a moving target when the number of races changes each season) - then he's right.

 

I disagree. I have problems with F1 at the moment, but they aren't really to do with variety.

 

II expect this thread will go the way of the thread on Lewis' recent interview - some of his fans will love his 'honesty', others may get the distinct whiff of sour grapes. Then the thread will become about Seb and get locked.

[mtojay]

so, he and his team should step up their game.

 

its right that the fight for the championship gets boring, but you cant blame someone for being fast, the only ones you can blame are the other teams not able to perform on the same level.

[motorhead]

I´m sure LH wouldn´t mind if he was in Vettel´s position

[stanga]

Well personally I enjoyed it; not because Vettel won but because there was lots of action behind him. I'd prefer close battles for first, but you can't persecute a driver/team for doing the best job.

 

I don't believe he's persecuting anyone and no-one is really blaming RBR/Vettel. They are playing the game and winning. He's merely stating that he can imagine that many fans find this kind of domination dull.

 

For me, 2013 has turned into a worse season than 2011 in terms of interest. While we all appreciate battles for 5th place, I for one like to see drivers scrapping for the lead.

[TimRTC]

I love how people don't bother to read the article. Hamilton isn't blaming Vettel, or Red Bull or anyone, he just worries that Red Bull's dominance might put off some fans. You can be a die hard RB fan or hater, but either way you want to see some good, close, competitive racing for the championship and that we certainly have not got at the moment.

 

Hard to imagine that as many people will wake up early to watch what is likely to be another Red Bull domination next Sunday as would tune in were it an open battle between half the grid.

Edited by TimRTC, 07 October 2013 - 11:50.

[Dalton007]

The other guys need to step up. Vettel and Red Bull are doing the perfect job in an era where the rules have been fairly stable... until next year. I think the tyres are a big issue, they are so difficult to work with and get right.

Edited by Dalton007, 07 October 2013 - 11:58.

[Jackmancer]

Staggering fact; Sebastian Vettel has led the last 142 laps in F1.

[Uwe]

I thought there was a lot of race action in Korea and I wasn't bored at all. Besides I do think that those who are whining are equally those who are watching F1 only to see their favourite driver win and not because they love motor racing.

 

And it would have been a bit more honest if Hamilton had added "Sorry, fans, that we, Vettels competitors, are not delivering a good enough job to make the title race more interesting."

[JtP1]

I´m sure LH wouldn´t mind if he was in Vettel´s position

 

 

Exactly. But if Hamilton doesn't like it, then why doesn't he do something about it?

[P123]

The proof is in the TV viewing figures.... but even then, the move to pay TV has already seen off some viewers in the UK, and the early morning starts of the Asian races won't help viewership in euroland.

 

The races themselves haven't been bad, even with the problem of gimmicks such as DRS and inadequate tyres.  Vettel and Red Bull doing their job may bring some predictability which will lower general interest, but F1 has other things affecting that too.

[F.M.]

The best article I've read about Vettel's dominance is this one:

Vettel makes F1 boring – and that’s why he’s a genius

http://uk.eurosport....-090608287.html

 

snippets:

But the problem with Vettel isn't that he's no good; it's that he's too good. And he takes part in a sport where driving quicker than everyone else paradoxically makes you very dull. Most sports have some positive correlation between quality and entertainment. Yes, you can prefer watching Roger Federer play tennis to Novak Djokovic; true, Swansea are easier on the eye than Stoke. But as a general rule - if you're good, you're good to watch. That does not apply in Formula One. Speed on its own means nothing. Most observers could watch qualifying laps by Vettel and perennial backmarker Jules Bianchi and not notice any difference with the naked eye. What's more, if you're the best you actively set out to make the race as boring as possible. You qualify on pole position, you accelerate away from the field, you nail your pit stops. If at all possible, you avoid having to overtake anyone at any point. You get in front, you press home your advantage, you minimise risk.

On that front, Red Bull did a masterful job in Korea, making Vettel virtually invisible for 55 laps. His job was to suck the fun out of the race and he succeeded brilliantly. It was genius. Tedious, soul-destroying genius.

 

It’s true that his relentless pursuit of victory feels a little soulless. For that, you can blame a sport that has not done enough to encourage parity – either financially, technically or in racing regulations (scrap qualifying and form your grid by reversing the result of the last race – why not?).

You can also blame Red Bull’s rivals for failing to provide machinery swift enough to top the podium. But you certainly cannot blame Sebastian Vettel. All he has done is get in his car and drive it faster than everyone else. And isn’t that the whole point?

Edited by F.M., 07 October 2013 - 11:58.

[fed up]

Haven't watched the last 2 races and won't watch another for the rest of the season. If we know who has won the championship what's the point in watching unless you have time to waste or are a fan of Vettel or watching a foregone conclusion.

 

My issue isn't Vettel winning per se, it's the fact that one team has had a significant advantage over the others for such a long period of time. Despite the pool of talent in F1 and the billions of dollars spent, one team is still able to thrash the competition. It doesn't make sense to me so I don't bother with it.

 

Love talking about it mind, so will continue on the forums

[seahawk]

Hamilton should really shut up. Yes, a viewer might find Vettel´s domination boring, but that is not Vettel´s fault, it is the fault of the other teams, driver and also of Lewis. (as part of the other drivers) If they are not good enough to challenge Vettel, they need to man up or shut up.

[Jerem]

Haven't watched the last 2 races and won't watch another for the rest of the season. If we know who has won the championship what's the point in watching unless you have time to waste or are a fan of Vettel or watching a foregone conclusion.

 

Racing? There were plenty of exciting battles yesterday, and Lewis was part of them. Maybe he didn't enjoy them, but as an F1 fan I liked watching close battles and racing. If it was for the lead, it would be better, but close fights are always nice to watch.

[Maustinsj]

Exactly. But if Hamilton doesn't like it, then why doesn't he do something about it?

 

For example?

[Nonesuch]

Racing?

 

  Absolutely - though it'd be great to toss DRS out. If the championship - a list of numbers - is the be all and end all, you might as well follow amateur sports by just reading the standings in the local newspaper.

[Raven8]

He is right, not worth to stand up at silly o'clock to see Vettel win.

[stanga]

The best article I've read about Vettel's dominance is this one:

Vettel makes F1 boring – and that’s why he’s a genius

http://uk.eurosport....-090608287.html

 

snippets:

But the problem with Vettel isn't that he's no good; it's that he's too good. And he takes part in a sport where driving quicker than everyone else paradoxically makes you very dull. Most sports have some positive correlation between quality and entertainment. Yes, you can prefer watching Roger Federer play tennis to Novak Djokovic; true, Swansea are easier on the eye than Stoke. But as a general rule - if you're good, you're good to watch. That does not apply in Formula One. Speed on its own means nothing. Most observers could watch qualifying laps by Vettel and perennial backmarker Jules Bianchi and not notice any difference with the naked eye. What's more, if you're the best you actively set out to make the race as boring as possible. You qualify on pole position, you accelerate away from the field, you nail your pit stops. If at all possible, you avoid having to overtake anyone at any point. You get in front, you press home your advantage, you minimise risk.

On that front, Red Bull did a masterful job in Korea, making Vettel virtually invisible for 55 laps. His job was to suck the fun out of the race and he succeeded brilliantly. It was genius. Tedious, soul-destroying genius.

 

It’s true that his relentless pursuit of victory feels a little soulless. For that, you can blame a sport that has not done enough to encourage parity – either financially, technically or in racing regulations (scrap qualifying and form your grid by reversing the result of the last race – why not?).

You can also blame Red Bull’s rivals for failing to provide machinery swift enough to top the podium. But you certainly cannot blame Sebastian Vettel. All he has done is get in his car and drive it faster than everyone else. And isn’t that the whole point?

 

Correction: All he has done is get in his car and drive it faster than everyone else in their cars. Did the writer not realise F1 isn't a spec series?

 

A gushing, overdone piece as bad as the articles that attribute Vettel's success purely to the car. 

[Raven8]

Hamilton should really shut up. Yes, a viewer might find Vettel´s domination boring, but that is not Vettel´s fault, it is the fault of the other teams, driver and also of Lewis. (as part of the other drivers) If they are not good enough to challenge Vettel, they need to man up or shut up.

Have you read the comment?

[BenettonB192]

He's certainly right that it can hurt viewing numbers. But you can't blame Seb can you? What annoys me a bit recently is that supposedly Seb should start feeling ashamed of winning so much which is such a nonsense. With all the discussion about the booing, some experts like Surer saying he should go to a different team to make F1 more interesting, some other guy dont remember who saying he should lose a couple races to become more popular, NR feeling offended by the bollocks in the pool comment etc.

[Moosed]

Hamilton should really shut up. Yes, a viewer might find Vettel´s domination boring, but that is not Vettel´s fault, it is the fault of the other teams, driver and also of Lewis. (as part of the other drivers) If they are not good enough to challenge Vettel, they need to man up or shut up.

 

You must be the resident simpleton around here, he said nothing about it being vettel or anyones fault.

[Gorma]

For example?

Win him.

 

It's not Vettel who is making things boring... it's everyone else.

[Maustinsj]

Win him.

 

 

Like in a hoopla competition?

[Sin]

well it's for the other teams and drivers to step up and defeat Seb.... not for Seb to start loosing on purpose, that is a silly idea.... you want it more intresting for the fans, you have to work to beat Seb and RBR, simple as that

[FastnLoud]

Hamilton should really shut up. Yes, a viewer might find Vettel´s domination boring, but that is not Vettel´s fault, it is the fault of the other teams, driver and also of Lewis. (as part of the other drivers) If they are not good enough to challenge Vettel, they need to man up or shut up.

 

Hamilton, Kimi and Alonso would beat Seb in the same car, it's not about being good enough as drivers to challenge because those 3 clearly are, it's about other teams being good enough to challenge Redbull and Newey.

[stanga]

Like in a hoopla competition?

 

No, in a lottery surely?

[Sin]

Hamilton, Kimi and Alonso would beat Seb in the same car, it's not about being good enough as drivers to challenge because those 3 clearly are, it's about other teams being good enough to challenge Redbull and Newey.

 

you assume they would.... I wouldn't be so certain about it...  and here we are again, selling opinions as facts, this thread just started going downhill

[Diablobb81]

"Tedious, soul-destroying genius"

 

He, i like that.

[stanga]

well it's for the other teams and drivers to step up and defeat Seb.... not for Seb to start loosing on purpose, that is a silly idea.... you want it more intresting for the fans, you have to work to beat Seb and RBR, simple as that

 

Yes it is a silly idea. Which is why no-one has suggested it. 

[fed up]

Racing? There were plenty of exciting battles yesterday, and Lewis was part of them. Maybe he didn't enjoy them, but as an F1 fan I liked watching close battles and racing. If it was for the lead, it would be better, but close fights are always nice to watch.

You are right of course and I do enjoy the racing further down, but I won't prioritise watching F1 over other things that I have to do. If the championship was still open or the RBR dominance less of an enigma  I would still take an interest.

 

The dominance in an era designed to be more a spec series is what confuses me. F1 shouldn't be about the dominance of one team and I don't rate Vettel above Lewis, nando or Kimi.

 

Next year won't get any better either

[Mr.Wayne]

It feels to me like he is still trying to rationalise what failed with their car.  They dominated in Hungary; they were supposed to be untouchable at both Spa and Monza, and then they were supposed to go back to their "strong" tracks at both Singapore and Korea. 

 

What happened is that they were outraced in Spa by both RedBull and Ferrari; and that in Monza Hamilton lost concentration in qualy, thus compromised his race and (imo) he has been carrying that weight since then: The pace of the Mercedes with worn tyres in Monza was frightening! still, when you mess up your qualy, there is not much you can do.... .

 

And then came Singapore, and this reminded me of Monaco 2011.  After Hamilton failed to pass Vettel in Barcelona, despite of having the best car that day, he started hyping himself going to Montecarlo, to a "true drivers track", to a track where "car makes no difference", to a track where McLaren should (and was) the strongest package.  What did he do then? chocked in qualy, and chocked in the race.  What did he do in Singapore? to present one very uninspired drive after Vettel showed on Friday he had a very strong package as well.  

 

And then comes Korea, both Mercedes qualifying well, quite clearly they had the pace to fight RBR for a single lap; and everything went down on race day.  Hamilton overdrove his car (again?) and destroyed his tyres, A low-profiled Rosberg had to deal with mechanical problems, and despite of having a car sensibly faster than Sauber over a single lap, had to watch his race chances evaporate by following the Ferrari powered vehicle.  Mercedes went RedBull route: sacrifice top-speed for downforce, qualify and front, and drive off.  Only problem is that they didn't manage the drive off part.

 

And, so here we are today, when rather than looking at the "what failed" he tries to divert attention, once again, to "he wins because of the car.. his car is unbeatable... he is bad for F1", etc, etc. 

 

Is that really what is going on, or is Hamilton trying to get a hold at the situation: Why, when it looked like he had the fastest car on the grid (After Hungary) everything slipped away, and driver errors started to appear? 

[UPRC]

Hamilton should really shut up. Yes, a viewer might find Vettel´s domination boring, but that is not Vettel´s fault, it is the fault of the other teams, driver and also of Lewis. (as part of the other drivers) If they are not good enough to challenge Vettel, they need to man up or shut up.

 

Hamilton isn't blaming Vettel.

Edited by UPRC, 07 October 2013 - 12:29.

[Raven8]

Every sport or series gets boring if always the same wins.

[BenettonB192]

Hamilton, Kimi and Alonso would beat Seb in the same car, it's not about being good enough as drivers to challenge because those 3 clearly are, it's about other teams being good enough to challenge Redbull and Newey.

 

Seb is at least as good as them otherwise he wouldn't dominate everything and everyone when his car is great. If the RB car alone could raise an inferior driver above all the great drivers then why was Webber never at least second in the championship behind Seb?

[Jon83]

Staggering fact; Sebastian Vettel has led the last 142 laps in F1.

 

Webber led briefly yesterday.

 

So did the fire truck.
 

[ForzaGTR]

Can anyone really dispute what Hamilton has said. F1 has been so boring this season. Spa and Monza were almost unwatchable.

Edited by Olly F1, 07 October 2013 - 16:57.

[OccasionalCommenter]

This year of Vettel dominance is still much more entertaining to watch than the years of Schumacher dominance. When Vettel disappears into distance, at least interesting stuff happens behind him. When Schumacher did that, there was nothing going on, no one switched places because the cars couldn't overtake. 

[Raven8]

It feels to me like he is still trying to rationalise what failed with their car.  They dominated in Hungary; they were supposed to be untouchable at both Spa and Monza, and then they were supposed to go back to their "strong" tracks at both Singapore and Korea. 

 

What happened is that they were outraced in Spa by both RedBull and Ferrari; and that in Monza Hamilton lost concentration in qualy, thus compromised his race and (imo) he has been carrying that weight since then: The pace of the Mercedes with worn tyres in Monza was frightening! still, when you mess up your qualy, there is not much you can do.... .

 

And then came Singapore, and this reminded me of Monaco 2011.  After Hamilton failed to pass Vettel in Barcelona, despite of having the best car that day, he started hyping himself going to Montecarlo, to a "true drivers track", to a track where "car makes no difference", to a track where McLaren should (and was) the strongest package.  What did he do then? chocked in qualy, and chocked in the race.  What did he do in Singapore? to present one very uninspired drive after Vettel showed on Friday he had a very strong package as well.  

 

And then comes Korea, both Mercedes qualifying well, quite clearly they had the pace to fight RBR for a single lap; and everything went down on race day.  Hamilton overdrove his car (again?) and destroyed his tyres, A low-profiled Rosberg had to deal with mechanical problems, and despite of having a car sensibly faster than Sauber over a single lap, had to watch his race chances evaporate by following the Ferrari powered vehicle.  Mercedes went RedBull route: sacrifice top-speed for downforce, qualify and front, and drive off.  Only problem is that they didn't manage the drive off part.

 

And, so here we are today, when rather than looking at the "what failed" he tries to divert attention, once again, to "he wins because of the car.. his car is unbeatable... he is bad for F1", etc, etc. 

 

Is that really what is going on, or is Hamilton trying to get a hold at the situation: Why, when it looked like he had the fastest car on the grid (After Hungary) everything slipped away, and driver errors started to appear? 

Because the  (Mercedes) car isn't as competitive as it was before the summer break. RBR made a big step foreward since Hungary, and Mercedes/ Ferrari slipped backwards

At Spa and Monza Brawn & co said the low dF package did not work as they expected, so you can't put the blame entirely on the drivers

Since Singapore the RBR  dominance is more obvious than ever, nobody can challenge them.

At Korea Mercedes did not have the pace to challege RBR neither at qualy nor the race. It was a very good lap from Hamilton wich put him up to 2nd, but at the race the pace wasn't there, we have seen it before. Merceds on high fuel isn't as fast in the race.

To put the blame on Hamilton is rubbish.

Edited by Raven8, 07 October 2013 - 12:29.

[Arcadi]

well it's for the other teams and drivers to step up and defeat Seb.... not for Seb to start loosing on purpose, that is a silly idea.... you want it more intresting for the fans, you have to work to beat Seb and RBR, simple as that

Not that simple when the winning team is most certainly cheating.

[Jon83]

This year of Vettel dominance is still much more entertaining to watch than the years of Schumacher dominance. When Vettel disappears into distance, at least interesting stuff happens behind him. When Schumacher did that, there was nothing going on, no one switched places because the cars couldn't overtake. 

 

Yes but how much of this is because of tyres and DRS?

[Sin]

well problem is... part what makes F1 what it is, is the developement of the car and the fact that not everybody drives the same car, that's why there is a WCC and not just a WDC, that also means that part of the sucess of ALL drivers is due to the cars they are driving... and RB have been doing a great job, just as Ferrari did with Schumachers car... behind every great driver there is a great team, doesn't make them less good...

 

I still think Seb is one of the best drivers... which is visible by how much he takes out of the car compared to Mark, and I think he does not get enough credit for his driving...

well he does get credit by the people that work in F1.... just some fans think they know better

 

and haha at the cheating comment...

Edited by Sin, 07 October 2013 - 12:30.

[Kobasmashi]

Exactly. But if Hamilton doesn't like it, then why doesn't he do something about it?

He did. He asked to join Red Bull last season. Vettel vetoed it. I think it's very telling that both Hamilton and Alonso back themselves to beat Vettel in a straight fight in requesting to join RBR, but Vettel won't take them on.

[MrPodium]

Every sport or series gets boring if always the same wins.

 

Exactly. Look at the state of heavyweight boxing with the Klitschko brothers. Same result every time (they win) and the division is as dull as ditch water as a result.

[rhukkas]

To say the other drivers need to 'step up' is stupid because it's ignoring the basic fundamentals of physics. F1 is about the car, and no matter who you are if your car isn't producing the required downforce there is simply nothing you can do. Not that this is a bad thing., this is F1.

 

Hamilton is just stating facts which I am sure are reflected in the real test - viewing figures.