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Did Alonso gain an advantage doing this through the whole Korean GP?


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#1 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 14:24

Thought this deserved it's own thread.

 

http://forums.autosp...-day/?p=6454559

i2mVyWK.png

 

Things to note:

 

(Every lap is questionable as of no real 100% race onboard to find out if he did it on every lap.)

He does it through turn 6 only.

(From the feed I could only see Alonso doing this, not 100% proof nobody else was trying the same.)

He's all 4's of track everytime he goes through here.

Rubber can be easily seen on the astro turf in the picture above affecting the astro turf penalty.

F1 commentators noticed this on both Sky and the BBC yet nothing came from the stewards to even warn him.

Rules state you must stay within track limits.

 

Please keep this civil   ):


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 16:46.


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#2 boldhakka

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 14:26

Well yes, otherwise he wouldn't keep doing it every lap would he?

#3 EthanM

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 14:31

advantage is difficult to pinpoint ... does he gain lap time? probably not. Does he protect the vulnerable front right tyre and gain tyre life? yes



#4 mtojay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 14:48

difficult to say acutally.

 

he didnt overtake sombedy while doing it, so there was no "obvious" advantage.

but he saved tirelifetime. so thats an advantage atleast.

 

since he didnt or couldnt keep the line at some points of the races, i guess he would have been slower if he had used the racing line without going offtrack. (since he had to go slower to keep his line)

considering the laps where he was in the pack with hulk ham and raikonnen, maybe he had to use that line to have enough speed through the corner for not being overtaken?

 

hard to tell actually, but that racingline he took there smells a little bit like an advantage.

 

that said, i dont want him to be penalized afterwards. these are things that needs to be seen during the race, otherwise they are not penaltyworthy. (in my opinion atleast)



#5 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 14:55

advantage is difficult to pinpoint ... does he gain lap time? probably not. Does he protect the vulnerable front right tyre and gain tyre life? yes

 

Considering how close Rosberg was to him at the end it saved him 6th it seemed.



#6 Atreiu

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:00

Before we try to ponder what advantages could have been gained, it should be better to know exactly how strict are stewards and drivers supposed to be about the white lines. Are there exceptions or not?

 

I remember he also did it every other lap at Abu Dhabi when he was chasing Petrov, so this is definitely not unheard of.



#7 AlexS

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:01

What is the problem? the kerbs are still part of the track.

 

Besides everyone does this in other circuits.


Edited by AlexS, 07 October 2013 - 15:03.


#8 mtojay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:02

Before we try to ponder what advantages could have been gained, it should be better to know exactly how strict are stewards and drivers supposed to be about the white lines. Are there exceptions or not?

 

I remember he also did it every other lap at Abu Dhabi when he was chasing Petrov, so this is definitely not unheard of.

 

Rules of F1:

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.



#9 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:02

Rules state you must stay in the track limits but the drivers briefing before every race tends to have exceptions... unless you know this to be the case you can't really discuss it!  Hungary T4 was deemed ok to run wide in the pre-race briefing according to Brundle , Ascari at Monza is usually treated the same!  Other drivers may not have felt it was an advantage, either through the risk of debris/punctures or excessive wear from running over the kerbs.  The loss of traction from accelerating on the astro turf was probably enough for most to stay tighter.


Edited by DampMongoose, 07 October 2013 - 15:03.


#10 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:03

How do you know other drivers didn't do it?



#11 mtojay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:04

How do you know other drivers didn't do it?

 

i at least havent seen anybody else doing that. are there? show us then.



#12 Hayden1

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:05

what kind of advantage you can get from f....ng understeer car that makes you ran ouf of the track on the exit???  oh i forgot, there is 1 , eating f....ng tyres but not buying time.

Ridiculous thread. Not FA fan but this thread is witch hunting. 

#13 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:08

 

Please keep this civil   ):

 

He says having thrown the match and covered his ears!



#14 mtojay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:08

 

what kind of advantage you can get from f....ng understeer car that makes you ran ouf of the track on the exit???  oh i forgot, there is 1 , eating f....ng tyres but not buying time.

Ridiculous thread. Not FA fan but this thread is witch hunting. 

 

 

question is how often he did it. if he did it for a whole lot of laps. than its not ridiculous. than he already should have known that his car understeers and should have lifted. that would have lost him some time. so yes it is an advantage. but if he just did it a few times while being behind other cars i dont see a big problem either. dirty air, understeer can happen once twice or maybe a third or fourth time. but at some point you have to know what happens and have to adjust your speed going in to the corner, even if that means you are going to loose time.



#15 JimiKart

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:08

How do you gain an advantage going wide and therefore having a longer run, no advantage in lap time if anything it will cost time - you gain an advantage when you cut a chicane, like Seb did every lap at the last chicane before the start-finish straight when he cuts it to go short and save time.



#16 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:09

 

what kind of advantage you can get from f....ng understeer car that makes you ran ouf of the track on the exit???  oh i forgot, there is 1 , eating f....ng tyres but not buying time.

Ridiculous thread. Not FA fan but this thread is witch hunting. 

 

Minardi accusing Vettel/RBR of having traction control seemed debatable on this forum.


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 15:11.


#17 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:09

I believe it's allowed to run wide with all 4 wheels over the white line at the exit of Ascari but as a special case. Is there such a case for this corner? If not it should fall under the 'not staying within the confines of the track' rules whatever they be. 



#18 teejay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:10

Rules state you must stay in the track limits but the drivers briefing before every race tends to have exceptions... unless you know this to be the case you can't really discuss it!  Hungary T4 was deemed ok to run wide in the pre-race briefing according to Brundle , Ascari at Monza is usually treated the same!  Other drivers may not have felt it was an advantage, either through the risk of debris/punctures or excessive wear from running over the kerbs.  The loss of traction from accelerating on the astro turf was probably enough for most to stay tighter.

Actually this year the stewards clamped down on Ascari, drivers were told they had to keep 2 wheels over the line. 



#19 mtojay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:10

How do you gain an advantage going wide and therefore having a longer run, no advantage in lap time if anything it will cost time - you gain an advantage when you cut a chicane, like Seb did every lap at the last chicane before the start-finish straight when he cuts it to go short and save time.

 

if that is the truth, then seb should never have been penalized for overtaking button 2012 hockenheim in the last laps ;-)

 

and the chicane you are talking about. at no point sebastian left the track with all 4 wheels ;-)



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#20 spacekid

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:11

What is the problem? the kerbs are still part of the track.

 

Besides everyone does this in other circuits.

 

Not quite - the track is marked by the white lines. If all 4 wheels are outside of the white lines then the car is off the track, regardless of whether a kerb is there or not.

 

I agree that this happens at other circuits.

 

Its one of those areas where the rules aren't consistently applied. However, I would argue that F1 working the way it does other teams/drivers would have seen this and done the same if they thought it was worth their bother. Usually if cars are constantly skipping a part of the track like a chicane race control will have a word before applying a penalty.

 

My impression was simply that Alonso had understeer.

 

My solution to this sort of thing is to convert every track to be like the Rainbow Road special stage in Mario Kart. No one will run wide then.



#21 active

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:12

Yes he had a great advantage driving such an understeering mule.



#22 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:14

He says having thrown the match and covered his ears!

Well I looked through the GP twice looking for other drivers doing this and I saw nobody "within the FOM TV feed" doing it.

 

Alonso really was the only person I saw doing this, heavy fuel and light.



#23 mtojay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:14

Yes he had a great advantage driving such an understeering mule.

 

 

thats not the point. if that measurement would account for f1 racing than chilton would be allowed to cut every corner since his car is so slow.  :rolleyes:



#24 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:16

Well I looked through the GP twice looking for other drivers doing this and I saw nobody "within the FOM TV feed" doing it.

 

Alonso really was the only person I saw doing this, heavy fuel and light.

 

If you weren't in the driver briefing you can't criticise him.  Because you don't know if the corner was an exception to the rule! Everyone here can argue he's a cheat, or he gets no advantage all they like but unless you know what was said beforehand it matters not one iota!



#25 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:17

i at least havent seen anybody else doing that. are there? show us then.

 

Not for me to - I don't know either way. For all we know, several other drivers did the same at one time or another.



#26 vista

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:18

Well, obviously the grip is much better on the Astroturf so very big advantage there. Seriously, he is not cutting any corner to take a shortcut like others did in for example Spa last year.


Edited by vista, 07 October 2013 - 15:19.


#27 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:19

If you weren't in the driver briefing you can't criticise him.  Because you don't know if the corner was an exception to the rule! Everyone here can argue he's a cheat, or he gets no advantage all they like but unless you know what was said beforehand it matters not one iota!

Very true I can't, but I would say that's the Stewards/FIA's fault for not making that information available to us (the fans) to stop the confusion. We read the rules and of course get upset when we believe them to have been broken. So my first thought will be; "He has broken a rule and he keeps doing it." and other than that the Stewards don't bother to explain it to us which is very frustrating.


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 15:22.


#28 Shiroo

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:20

Well, isn't that astroturf, that on the outside where he is going wide? Or it isn't?

cause as far as I can tell, astroturf is rather unfriendly for drivers, Kimi even overtook Grosjean cause of later going on the astro and losing a little of speed.

 

If that's astroturf, then how you can tell about gaining an advantage over there? 



#29 teejay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:21

Lets be real though - Alonso is a wise racer - if he doing it lap in, lap out, there was a reason to do so that was advantageous to him. 

 

My belief - a few metres less of load on a turning tyre. Just my opinion. 



#30 molpid

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:22

Yes he had a great advantage driving such an understeering mule.

 

Using the kerbs all the way allows him to take the corner with higher speed, so it's definately an advantage. [regardless of car behaviour like understeering]


Edited by molpid, 07 October 2013 - 15:23.


#31 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:23

Well, isn't that astroturf, that on the outside where he is going wide? Or it isn't?

cause as far as I can tell, astroturf is rather unfriendly for drivers, Kimi even overtook Grosjean cause of later going on the astro and losing a little of speed.

 

If that's astroturf, then how you can tell about gaining an advantage over there? 

It is astro turf, but astro turf with plenty of black tyre tread it seems.



#32 HoldenRT

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:25

I wish the drivers were allowed to do this, even in the letters of the rules.  I don't care if a driver has 4 wheels off track.  As long as it is not obvious blatant chicane cutting.  If everyone does it, it's no big deal.  It's only when there is grey area, and some do it and some don't.. that it becomes more annoying.



#33 Shiroo

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:26

It is astro turf, but astro turf with plenty of black tyre tread it seems.

 

well if he was doing whole weekend then he is probably the one that brough it all over there. what a clever driver  :rotfl:  prepared it from friday onwards!

 

 

 

I wish the drivers were allowed to do this, even in the letters of the rules.  I don't care if a driver has 4 wheels off track.  As long as it is not obvious blatant chicane cutting.  If everyone does it, it's no big deal.  It's only when there is grey area, and some do it and some don't.. that it becomes more annoying.

 
no. I disagree on this one. It is like giving a finger, and then they ask for whole arm. They would ask then for removing KERBs or even more ridiculous ideas. It is the track, or Formula 1 where downforce give you advantage in the corners cause you can carry more speed there. Unless we want F1 to become new NASCAR

Edited by Shiroo, 07 October 2013 - 15:28.


#34 Exb

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:27

Yes it was an advantage or he would not have been doing it, but surely thats just smart driving from Alonso.
If the stewards were not happy with what he was doing they could have given him a warning over the radio about respecting track limits which they have done in the past.

#35 mtojay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:28

I wish the drivers were allowed to do this, even in the letters of the rules.  I don't care if a driver has 4 wheels off track.  As long as it is not obvious blatant chicane cutting.  If everyone does it, it's no big deal.  It's only when there is grey area, and some do it and some don't.. that it becomes more annoying.

 

nope. the track is the track. stay inbound is actually a simple rule.

 

we already had moments where it would have been a pain to watch the threads if people wouldnt have been penalized for leaving the track.

 

look at vettel button 2012 hockenheim. vettel clearly took advantage with leaving the track and overtaking button. we would have had discussion for weeks if he wouldnt have been penalized.



#36 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:34

Lets be real though - Alonso is a wise racer - if he doing it lap in, lap out, there was a reason to do so that was advantageous to him. 

 

My belief - a few metres less of load on a turning tyre. Just my opinion. 

 

Alonso's belief - the pathetic Pirelli tyres are evil and must be punished on the kerbs every lap without fail!



#37 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:35

I heard the commentators saying this right at the beginning of the race and that continued throughout the race. Alonso just abused the rule in that corner all day..



#38 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:38

I heard the commentators saying this right at the beginning of the race and that continued throughout the race. Alonso just abused the rule in that corner all day..

 

Or did he?



#39 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:39

How do you gain an advantage going wide and therefore having a longer run, no advantage in lap time if anything it will cost time - you gain an advantage when you cut a chicane, like Seb did every lap at the last chicane before the start-finish straight when he cuts it to go short and save time.

If ever there was a proof that your posts are blind and hypocritical..


 



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#40 Atreiu

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:39

I blame it on these ridiculous and flat please-run-over-me kerbs. What is the point of having them when these tracks are built to be wide everywhere? There should be no kerbs on corner exists, only grass.



#41 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:42

Or did he?

 

He pretty much did through every chance the feed displayed him going through turn 6 for me, everybody else would make the turn but Alonso without fail would just drive straight off the track. The only way I can 100% prove myself on that is to have a onboard 100% feed of his race and printscreen it at every lap.

 

But the 25-30 odds laps which had him go into that corner which I was able to see would support me in that he did do it on every race lap.


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 15:46.


#42 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:46

He pretty much did through every chance the feed displayed him going through turn 6 for me, everybody else would make the turn but Alonso without fail would just drive straight off the track. The only way I can 100% prove myself on that is to have a onboard 100% feed of his race and printscreen it at every lap.

 

You missed my point entirely... without knowing if using the T6 run-off was allowed in the driver meeting he either did or didn't abuse the rule!  When the technicalities have been spoken about, all this thread is now is a chance for people to have a go at Alonso, as predicted earlier!



#43 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:48

You missed my point entirely... without knowing if using the T6 run-off was allowed in the driver meeting he either did or didn't abuse the rule!  When the technicalities have been spoken about, all this thread is now is a chance for people to have a go at Alonso, as predicted earlier!

Then hopefully we get an answer from the FIA/Stewards to explain it to us rather than make it look like they're ignoring their own rules.



#44 mtojay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:49

You missed my point entirely... without knowing if using the T6 run-off was allowed in the driver meeting he either did or didn't abuse the rule!  When the technicalities have been spoken about, all this thread is now is a chance for people to have a go at Alonso, as predicted earlier!

 

you normaly know when there is such a rule. not only because the media gets the info in some way, but also there is not only one driver from 22 doing it. if it would have been told to them that they can go wide in corner 6, i honestly believe we would have seen more drivers doing it.



#45 HNSX

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:51

What is the problem?  :up:



#46 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:51

This obsession with absolutely not being able to cross those white lines is getting ridiculous. 

 

It needs to be enforced when people are corner-cutting and running way off to get an advantage, not minor little things like this. 



#47 skc

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:03

One wonders what the forums would be like if the race leader was doing this.

 

Also, I have no problem with it. For me it's too subtle for penalization. Everybody should do it.



#48 l8apex

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:06

He is doing it because is damn Ferrari understeers badly and won't turn!

 

I personally don't think it is a problem, but the stewards are very inconsistent... this would technically deserve a penalty.



#49 Fontainebleau

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:12

DampMongoose is correct in stating that the application of certain rules may be modified at the drivers's meeting (for example, stepping over the white line on the pit entry is allowed in certain tracks, and that is agreed and announced at the meeting), and we don't know if this was one of them. But beyond that, I don't remember any driver penalised for leaving the track other than in a timed lap or during an overtaking maneouvre. Does anyone here have examples of other situations in which leaving the track was penalised? It would be interesting to look at those.



#50 fabr68

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:14

Going wide give you no time advantage