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Did Alonso gain an advantage doing this through the whole Korean GP?


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#51 muramasa

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:19

reposting my post in korea gp race thread;

 

They shouldnt put kerb and concrete turf there if that area should be outside the track.

Like Suzuka's spoon entry, put no nothing, if you step out of white line you ride on the grass and spin.

 

it's abit silly to tell drivers how to use kerb and define outside and inside the track, i think. If they can drive there and gain advantage, they just go there. I always consider kerbs that dont punish you is perfectly inside the track. Otherwise you'll end up either penalizing all drivers or specifying track area and setting different rules for each and every corner. That's stupid. Let the physical track config of each corner define the outside and inside the track, not the damn "interpretation".

 

^^Add to that, that's except short-cutting or pit exit white line as stated already of course.



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#52 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:20

Well Grosjean was given a peanlty at Hungary for going off track against Massa and this with astroturf as well.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=A6GLT5VdWH8

 

Seems the stewards then felt he gained an advantage.


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 16:22.


#53 Gorma

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:21

Going wide give you no time advantage

Then Alonso is a really crappy driver.



#54 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:23

There is clearly an advantage to be had otherwise he would never have done it but there are two points to the OP wich I don't believe have been adequately demonstrated and they are that;

(a) Alonso did it on every lap and;

(b) nobody else did it.

 

Obviously there will be laps where other drivers did it, and there will be laps where Alonso doesn't, but if we are going to discuss this meaningfully then we need to understand whether these two points are generally true and accepted.



#55 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:25

Going wide give you no time advantage

 

Seem to remember several drivers overtaking by being quicker through using more road than track on the outside... Vettel on Button at Hockenheim being one of the first that springs to mind.



#56 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:25

There is clearly an advantage to be had otherwise he would never have done it but there are two points to the OP wich I don't believe have been adequately demonstrated and they are that;

(a) Alonso did it on every lap and;

(b) nobody else did it.

 

Obviously there will be laps where other drivers did it, and there will be laps where Alonso doesn't, but if we are going to discuss this meaningfully then we need to understand whether these two points are generally true and accepted.

 

 

If you like I can post them all, but I felt  putting 25 odd pictures in one post would be going a bit OTT and that I wouldn't want to get into trouble. Also no he didn't do this on every lap because of safety cars included etc. I can also only go through the BBC highlights which skips 2 previous incidents I saw on Sky with Alonso doing it twice already before the lap 9 picture.


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 16:28.


#57 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:28

You missed my point entirely... without knowing if using the T6 run-off was allowed in the driver meeting he either did or didn't abuse the rule!  When the technicalities have been spoken about, all this thread is now is a chance for people to have a go at Alonso, as predicted earlier!

And this is the next point of proof.  I would be surprised if this were agreed at the drivers meeting if nobody else was doing it regularly, but agree that we might have a hard time criticising Alonso without knowing for sure.



#58 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:31

There is clearly an advantage to be had otherwise he would never have done it but there are two points to the OP wich I don't believe have been adequately demonstrated and they are that;

(a) Alonso did it on every lap and;

(b) nobody else did it.

 

Obviously there will be laps where other drivers did it, and there will be laps where Alonso doesn't, but if we are going to discuss this meaningfully then we need to understand whether these two points are generally true and accepted.

 

There isn't clearly an advantage becuase not everyone did it, if it was clear everyone would have (if they were allowed). There may have been an advantage to Alonso but not necessarily other drivers too.  His car setup and choice of riding the kerbs lap after lap (if that even is true) would be factors that don't necessarily apply to others who don't understeer as badly or choose not to cause potential damage to their precious Pirelli's.  You could argue that repeatedly hitting the right front on the kerbs and possible additional wheelspin from accelerating on the astroturf were a disadvantage for his tyres over a whole race.

 

Unfortuantely there is little proof or clarification of any of the points this thread is about...



#59 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:33

Maybe but I remember a lot of drivers not going off track after Ascari eventhough they were allowed.



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#60 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:35

If you like I can post them all, but I felt  putting 25 odd pictures in one post would be going a bit OTT and that I wouldn't want to get into trouble. Also no he didn't do this on every lap because of safety cars included etc. I can also only go through the BBC highlights which skips 2 previous incidents I saw on Sky with Alonso doing it twice already before the lap 9 picture.

Not at all, please don't and I wasn't really asking for that.  I don't think it even matters if two or three of your 25 pictures show him NOT going off the track if the general point is shown.  I simply think that we need to be sure of the accepted position.  The focus on Alonso means that perhaps we are missing the many other drivers did it too.



#61 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:37

Maybe but I remember a lot of drivers not going off track after Ascari eventhough they were allowed.

 

Which if you read my post you would see that I said what is a perceived advantage to some is not necessarily an advantage to others!  Where that is the case there can be no clear benefit!



#62 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:44

I did notice Alonso having no trouble taking turn 6 on lap 27 when he was under attack by Webber. Probably knew his wide line wouldn't work in that situation.


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 16:48.


#63 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:44

There isn't clearly an advantage becuase not everyone did it, if it was clear everyone would have (if they were allowed). There may have been an advantage to Alonso but not necessarily other drivers too.  His car setup and choice of riding the kerbs lap after lap (if that even is true) would be factors that don't necessarily apply to others who don't understeer as badly or choose not to cause potential damage to their precious Pirelli's.  You could argue that repeatedly hitting the right front on the kerbs and possible additional wheelspin from accelerating on the astroturf were a disadvantage for his tyres over a whole race.

 

Unfortuantely there is little proof or clarification of any of the points this thread is about...

You can't disagree and tell me there isn't an advantage to him and then go on in the next sentence to tell me there might be.

 

Do you believe the stewards would make an exception for this kerb for the sake of one driver or team only?  Do you think the other teams would let that driver or team have the advantage without complaint?



#64 garoidb

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:45

Rules state you must stay in the track limits but the drivers briefing before every race tends to have exceptions... unless you know this to be the case you can't really discuss it!  Hungary T4 was deemed ok to run wide in the pre-race briefing according to Brundle , Ascari at Monza is usually treated the same!  Other drivers may not have felt it was an advantage, either through the risk of debris/punctures or excessive wear from running over the kerbs.  The loss of traction from accelerating on the astro turf was probably enough for most to stay tighter.

 

Exactly.



#65 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:49

I did notice Alonso having no trouble taking turn 6 on lap 27 when he was under attack by Webber.

 

What is your end point here?

 

You're obviously of the mind that Alonso gained an unfair advantage here, although you've thus far not demonstrated how it actually benefited his race. I asked you earlier how do you know others didn't do it and your reply was you didn't see anyone else doing it - fair enough but not really an answer to the question.



#66 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:51

What is your end point here?

 

You're obviously of the mind that Alonso gained an unfair advantage here, although you've thus far not demonstrated how it actually benefited his race. I asked you earlier how do you know others didn't do it and your reply was you didn't see anyone else doing it - fair enough but not really an answer to the question.

 

Because the stewards would of seen that as an unfair advantage keeping his place, something similar to Grosjean at Hungary. So is it only an unfair advantage when you are near another car?



#67 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:57

Because the stewards would of seen that as an unfair advantage keeping his place, something similar to Grosjean at Hungary. So is it only an unfair advantage when you are near another car?

 

You believe he only stayed ahead because of this?

 

There is not similarity whatsoever to the (very harsh) penalty given to Grosjean in Hungary.

 

Race control saw the same as you and would have told the team to tell him to cut it out. You weren't present in the drivers briefing before the race so you have no idea what instruction was given on this.

 

Frankly, all I am seeing here is one person pushing some sort of desperate 'Alonso is a cheat' agenda after a race in which he hardly scored a great result in.



#68 Jerem

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:59

I don't know any examples where a driver was penalized for leaving the track except when overtaking. Even defending your position leaving the track seems pretty OK. I think in the first place the rule was there for drivers not to shortcut in qualifying, picking up rubber and saving fuel (post qualifying) or gaining time on an out-lap.

 

However there are not many examples of drivers going off-track lap after lap. I also remember Alonso doing it in Germany 2010 (final corner), and of course everyone at Ascari where there seemed to be a tolerance until this year.

 

I don't think it really matters - probably an advantage, but so thin that it doesn't matter, that's just his line. However there's a rule and maybe some day someone will get a penalty for doing something like that and everyone will be scandalized, but there will be nothing to do about it because the rule is clear. Not unlike some rules that were somehow forgotten until someone got a penalty - RS for "cutting" the white line on pit exit at Nurburgring, Vettel for leaving more that 10 car lengths behind SC, etc.



#69 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 16:59

I think it's very marginal whether an advantage was gained. As the OP pointed out, nobody else was doing it, which they would if it was an advantage. I think Alonso just preferred that line and felt he gained more from his higher apex speed than he lost accelerating with one rear wheel on the astroturf and the other on the serated kerbstones (as compared to the others who had one rear wheel on the tarmac and one on the kerbs under acceleration). If the stewards do nothing about it then Alonso is bound to take whatever line he prefers, including leaving the track.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is not permitted to intentionally leave the track without justifiable reason, and you can be penalised for doing so whether an advantage is gained or not.

 

In my view if a driver is leaving the track every lap, like Webber was at Silverstone and Spa, for example, then it cannot be deemed accidental or justifiable so it should be penalised whether there is advantage or not. The driver should be warned and then if he fails to heed the warnings he should be given a drive-through. If he does it in practice or qualifying the relevant laptimes should be deleted.

 

There needs to be some consistency of approach from the stewards about this. They should deploy spotters to the parts of the track where an advantage can potentially be gained by corner cutting or running wide (nearly every corner at some newer tracks, alas), so they know exactly how many times each driver has left the track at a particular corner. Each instance of going off track should be judged by the spotter to fall into one of three categories:

 

1. An obvious mistake with time loss, or justifiably going off track in avoidance or being forced off by another car.

2. Deliberate off-track driving with clear advantage, such going off track to make a pass or gaining a clear speed advantage.

3. Apparently intentional driving off-track without clear advantage or disadvantage.

 

Category 1 should be ignored. Category 2 should be reported to race control for investigation to see if further action is needed. Category 3 should be totted up and, when a particular car has three strikes, he should be warned on the timing screens (like they do in ACO-rules racing: in this case "Car 3 must respect track limits at Turn 6"), and then if the driver doesn't mend his ways, a further two strikes should result in an automatic drive-through.



#70 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:00

You believe he only stayed ahead because of this?

 

There is not similarity whatsoever to the (very harsh) penalty given to Grosjean in Hungary.

 

Race control saw the same as you and would have told the team to tell him to cut it out. You weren't present in the drivers briefing before the race so you have no idea what instruction was given on this.

 

Frankly, all I am seeing here is one person pushing some sort of desperate 'Alonso is a cheat' agenda after a race in which he hardly scored a great result in.

He didn't keep the place Webber had the inside line and Alonso the racing line, but rather than keep doing what he was doing and running wide he slowed down and tried the cut back on Webber.



#71 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:01

You can't disagree and tell me there isn't an advantage to him and then go on in the next sentence to tell me there might be.

 

Do you believe the stewards would make an exception for this kerb for the sake of one driver or team only?  Do you think the other teams would let that driver or team have the advantage without complaint?

 

I questioned your point that "there was clearly an advantage to be had" which is what you wrote!

 

If there was a clear advantage to all drivers to run wide at that corner they would have all done it, if they were given dispensation to by the stewards.  It may or may not have been an advantage to all the drivers to do so as I said, because some might think the risk to their tyres was greater than the time benefit (if there was one) for running on the dusty, rough kerb and astroturf.  We don't know if Fernando did it because he felt it was an advantage or because his car understeered badly at that corner.

 

 

Do you not think that if everyone saw this clear advantage as you put it, given that Alonso wasn't penalised or warned for what is said to be lap after lap, that the teams would have instructed their drivers to do the same if the advantage was that clear.



#72 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:03

I did notice Alonso having no trouble taking turn 6 on lap 27 when he was under attack by Webber. Probably knew his wide line wouldn't work in that situation.

 

I don't blame him for backing off and slowing up a faster car in that corner!



#73 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:07

Rules state you must stay in the track limits but the drivers briefing before every race tends to have exceptions... unless you know this to be the case you can't really discuss it!  Hungary T4 was deemed ok to run wide in the pre-race briefing according to Brundle , Ascari at Monza is usually treated the same!  Other drivers may not have felt it was an advantage, either through the risk of debris/punctures or excessive wear from running over the kerbs.  The loss of traction from accelerating on the astro turf was probably enough for most to stay tighter.

 

That's probably true but it is rather confusing for the spectator, and I would suggest that if the white lines are considered to be in the wrong place, they probably ought to be moved to reflect where Mr Whiting does or does not think it's acceptable for people to be driving.

 

In reality Whiting only makes these exceptions because there are certain corners where he knows people are going to run wide and neither he nor the stewards have the gumption or the organisational skills or the systems and processes in place to be able to police it fairly and consistently. If you have a system of "if I see you running wide, you might get a penalty, but I only see 20% of offences" then it will cause more problems than it's worth. I would suggest an altogether more rigorous and systematic approach to policing track limits (see my other post above).



#74 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:17

Going wide give you no time advantage

Of course it does. 


 



#75 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:18

An onboard of Alonso doing it (lap 41), I don't see how he can struggle with turn 6 and understeer considering how slow he is leaving turn 5.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M1yV89lBhNw

 

I also got view of Massa's line on lap 44, 45 and he is able to make turn 6 like everybody else.


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 17:33.


#76 droiddamudi

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:19

this is why i don't like how rules are applied sometimes. Either go by book or go by some sound logic and obviously publish statement of stewards regarding decision making procedure and evidence.

 

i understand that certain section of track drivers goes out of white line like out of ascari chicane in monza. but same is true for hungary turn 4(i'm gonna call grosjean corner) or 5 whichever it was.

 

Atleast warning should be given before penalty in case driver choose certain line as his racing line like what alonso did.

 

Also i don't think it matter if driver gain advantage or not, rules should be applied in all case. If Alonso choose that particular line for multiple time, it obviously mean its better line according to him and thus an advantage.


Edited by droiddamudi, 07 October 2013 - 17:21.


#77 prty

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:30

i at least havent seen anybody else doing that. are there? show us then.

 

The opening post image shows it itself... do you think all those tyre marks are just Alonso's?

 



#78 Jackmancer

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:30

I was actually worried Alonso would cut his tyres on the curbstone, like in Silverstone.



#79 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:40

Wider exit = carrying more speed.

 

Although maybe those curbs slowed him a bit, but IMO I think their should be grass or dirt on the other side of that curb instead of that green tarmac or whatever it is. I guess you would have to look at sector times over all the times he crossed it to see if he got an advantage.


Edited by MikeV1987, 07 October 2013 - 17:43.


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#80 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:45

Looking at the race for a 4th time now and his most blatant trip off track is on lap 48 when he is battling Hamilton, he leaves turn 5 so slowly and he yet still accelerates into turn 6 and leaves the track regardless how easy it is.

 

Go watch the BBC highlights to see what I'm on about: 1:24.53

 

He then shakes his fist at Lewis...


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 17:48.


#81 sopa

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:55

I don't know about advantage, but Grosjean got a penalty in Hungary for the same thing.



#82 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:58

Looking at qualy, sector two is where he made the most time on his team mate. Did he use that line in qualy as well?

 

S1

Alonso - 34.457

Massa - 34.493

 

S2

Alonso - 42.901

Massa - 43.200

 

S3

Massa - 20.437

Alonso - 20.444

 

His fastest lap in the race was only a couple of tenths quicker than Massa's lap. Although who knows when either of those two got their personal bests.


Edited by MikeV1987, 07 October 2013 - 18:06.


#83 Realyn

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 17:59

The reactions here compared to the thread/post about Vettel cutting the last chicane are somewhat funny.



#84 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:03

I don't know any examples where a driver was penalized for leaving the track except when overtaking. Even defending your position leaving the track seems pretty OK. I think in the first place the rule was there for drivers not to shortcut in qualifying, picking up rubber and saving fuel (post qualifying) or gaining time on an out-lap.

 

However there are not many examples of drivers going off-track lap after lap. I also remember Alonso doing it in Germany 2010 (final corner), and of course everyone at Ascari where there seemed to be a tolerance until this year.

 

I don't think it really matters - probably an advantage, but so thin that it doesn't matter, that's just his line. However there's a rule and maybe some day someone will get a penalty for doing something like that and everyone will be scandalized, but there will be nothing to do about it because the rule is clear. Not unlike some rules that were somehow forgotten until someone got a penalty - RS for "cutting" the white line on pit exit at Nurburgring, Vettel for leaving more that 10 car lengths behind SC, etc.

 

Ironically, Alonso and also Hulkenberg have both been told to give up a place having, in the views of many, been forced off the track in order to avoid contact with Perez. 



#85 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:05

I don't know about advantage, but Grosjean got a penalty in Hungary for the same thing.

 

No he didn't. 



#86 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:06

Looking at qualy, sector two is where he made the most time on his team mate. Did he use that line in qualy as well?

 

S1

Alonso - 34.457

Massa - 34.493

 

S2

Alonso - 42.901

Massa - 43.200

 

S3

Massa - 20.437

Alonso - 20.444

The place I first heard this story has one guy saying he saw Alonso do it in his final qualifying run.


Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 18:08.


#87 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:08

Going wide give you no time advantage

Yes it does, the shortest distance through a corner isn't always the fastest.


Edited by MikeV1987, 07 October 2013 - 18:08.


#88 Jerem

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:09

Ironically, Alonso and also Hulkenberg have both been told to give up a place having, in the views of many, been forced off the track in order to avoid contact with Perez. 

Yeah, these were some of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. I now call it a Perez pass. Pretty efficient until you try it on Raikkonen.



#89 sopa

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:10

No he didn't. 

 

Well, almost. Grosjean went slightly wide to avoid contact with another car. But he was deemed to have gained "an advantage". I think Alonso can be considered to have gained an advantage too regardless of whether he had cars alongside him, especially if he was doing it regularly. 

 

Would it be fine if people cut a Monza chicane straight every time even if they didn't overtake someone in the process? Still would gain an advantage.



#90 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:13

I don't know about advantage, but Grosjean got a penalty in Hungary for the same thing.


He really didn‘t.

#91 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:13

The place I first heard this story has one guy saying he saw Alonso do it in his final qualifying run.

Looking at lap 48, to me it looks like he does it cause he doesn't have the confidence to keep it planted. IMO I think he would have been way farther back from Hamilton if he stayed within the white lines on that corner exit.


Edited by MikeV1987, 07 October 2013 - 18:14.


#92 Sausage

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:18

The astro turf should be grass or gravel anyway.



#93 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:20

I questioned your point that "there was clearly an advantage to be had" which is what you wrote!

 

If there was a clear advantage to all drivers to run wide at that corner they would have all done it, if they were given dispensation to by the stewards.  It may or may not have been an advantage to all the drivers to do so as I said, because some might think the risk to their tyres was greater than the time benefit (if there was one) for running on the dusty, rough kerb and astroturf.  We don't know if Fernando did it because he felt it was an advantage or because his car understeered badly at that corner.

 

 

Do you not think that if everyone saw this clear advantage as you put it, given that Alonso wasn't penalised or warned for what is said to be lap after lap, that the teams would have instructed their drivers to do the same if the advantage was that clear.

I did write that and you disagreed and then agreed.  You said there wasn't an advantage but that there might be for him, so you're trying to have both sides of the argument.  Do you really believe that it is possible that only Alonso might gain an advantage, but none of the others, and that the FIA sanctioned the line he took and nobody else thought they might get an advantage?  I think that is incredibly unlikely.



#94 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:23

He did it while fighting with Kimi as well.


Edited by MikeV1987, 07 October 2013 - 18:23.


#95 DS27

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:23

How do you gain an advantage going wide and therefore having a longer run, no advantage in lap time if anything it will cost time - you gain an advantage when you cut a chicane, like Seb did every lap at the last chicane before the start-finish straight when he cuts it to go short and save time.

 

One of the most flat-earth statements I have read in a long time - assuming you're not joking.



#96 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:24

He did it while fighting with Kimi as well.

lap?



#97 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:26

How do you gain an advantage going wide and therefore having a longer run, no advantage in lap time if anything it will cost time - you gain an advantage when you cut a chicane, like Seb did every lap at the last chicane before the start-finish straight when he cuts it to go short and save time.

 

Being fast is not always about the shortest distance through a corner, its about CARRYING YOUR SPEED. You carry more speed going wider. I'm surprised how many people don't know this.

 

The difference between Vettel and Alonso is the former keeps two wheels on the track, while the latter does not. Everybody else puts two wheels over that chicane. You are completely full of shit as per usual.


Edited by MikeV1987, 07 October 2013 - 18:34.


#98 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:26

However there are not many examples of drivers going off-track lap after lap.


Were you not watching Spa, then? It breaks my heart a little bit each time I see a car cutting the top of Radillion as if it was nothing. The rarer thing was for a driver to stay on the circuit than to go off.

Unfortunately, tracks that are open to abuse of track limits can‘t easily be fixed without making them less safe than they currently are, and nobody in a position of responsibility wants to sanction modifications to a corner for sporting reasons, knowing it will increase the risks (e.g. putting the gravel traps back in Eau Rougue/Radillion). I‘m afraid rigorous, determined, consistent enforcement of track limits is the only way to restore credibility. The drivers are more than capable of keeping the racing on the track, and they will do so if the FIA ensures it‘s not in their interests to go off.

#99 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:26

lap?

7-9, although the Sky coverage doesn't show him in lap 8. but it's safe to assume if he did it lap 7 & 9 that he did it lap 8 as well.

 

At the end of the race with Hamilton as well.


Edited by MikeV1987, 07 October 2013 - 18:32.


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#100 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:33

7-9, although the Sky coverage doesn't show him in lap 8. but it's safe to assume if he did it lap 7 & 9 that he did it lap 8 as well.

 

He does it on lap 2 as well I've just found out.

 

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Edited by Silvercheese, 07 October 2013 - 18:44.