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Did Alonso gain an advantage doing this through the whole Korean GP?


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#101 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:45

The opening post image shows it itself... do you think all those tyre marks are just Alonso's?


I assume there were support races at Korea this year (after the shambles last year when they had nothing but a one-make Mazda series or some such)?

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#102 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 18:51

He did not want to lose that speed going up that hill and through those two flat corners, if he would have passed someone from there I think he should get a penalty just like Vettel did back in Hockenheim with Button. (If he didn't give the place back of coarse) 


Edited by MikeV1987, 07 October 2013 - 18:55.


#103 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 19:01

He does it on lap 2 as well I've just found out.
 
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I, for one, don‘t need any more convincing that that was the line Alonso was taking. Of course there will have been some laps where he changed his line while racing with other cars, but when in clear air his preferred line was to run wide, that‘s clear. I noticed it at the time and, had any of the other top cars been systematically taking that line, I‘m pretty sure I would have noticed that too.

But this is where it‘s dangerous to draw a conclusion about what should or shouldn‘t have happened by way of enforcement. If the stewardswanted to start policing this it wouldn‘t be enough for somebody to watch the world feed and form a view that this particular driver should get a warning or a penalty of whatever. There are 24 cars out there, so even if we focus exclusively on turn 6, even factoring in retirements, you‘re still looking at well north of a thousand instances of a car going around that corner, of which we the viewer see a tiny fraction. If penalties are to be fair and consistent, the Race Director‘s minions would have to see every instance and keep track of how often each car had gone over the line.

#104 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 19:10

^ They have a lot of money. They could appoint people to monitor all corners. At least a warning should go for the repeat offenders. We have many line umpires in tennis, don't we?



#105 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 19:15

He did not want to lose that speed going up that hill and through those two flat corners, if he would have passed someone from there I think he should get a penalty just like Vettel did back in Hockenheim with Button. (If he didn't give the place back of coarse)

He did not want to lose that speed going up that hill and through those two flat corners, if he would have passed someone from there I think he should get a penalty just like Vettel did back in Hockenheim with Button. (If he didn't give the place back of coarse)


I see the comparison but getting a run on somebody by going off track and actually overtaking by going off track are not identical situations, though I agree both should be penalised equally. A better comparator to Alonso‘s imaginary crime might be Hamilton‘s illegal pass on Raikkonnen in 2008, when he put himself in the slipstream by going off the track.

#106 DanardiF1

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 19:27

1. Why don't they just get rid of this 'Kerbs are not part of the track' part of the regs. They are used as such and should be considered as such, with the caveat that they are not abused. Abuse would be putting all 4 wheels over them.

 

2. Why are so many kerbs so bloody wide? Of course drivers are going to go right over them if they're a mile wide and essentially flat. Kerbs used to be shorter in width and more slanted to let the driver know that it was there, to punish overuse of them (by the tyre being caught on the other side of the lip until the kerb's end), and to give some aid in exiting the corner.



#107 Disgrace

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 19:48

There's no doubt Alonso did this deliberately as he did it throughout the whole race. I can't think that it's anything other than protecting the front tyres, particularly the stressed front-right.



#108 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 20:08

^ They have a lot of money. They could appoint people to monitor all corners. At least a warning should go for the repeat offenders. We have many line umpires in tennis, don't we?


Oh yes, I‘m not saying it can‘t be done, I‘m saying it would take a bit of organisation. If you had 6 spotters per corner, they could in my view be reasonably expected to each fill in a lap chart for the 4 cars assigned to them. They would just need to record a 0 if the car does not exceed track limits on a given lap, or a code 1, 2 or 3 as appropriate, as per my post above, if not. Any codes 2 or 3s recorded by the spotters would be automatically reported to race control with the car number, lap number, corner number and time index. Race control would look at the code 2s and keep running totals for code 3s, looking at them when the thresholds for warnings or penalties are reached. The time index info would allow somebody in race control, not Whiting or the stewards necessaily, but somebody at least, to check video evidence from the onboards before any penalties are handed out, to avoid erroneous penalties. There could be a system for giving that info to FOM too so that the viewers could see and understand why any penalties have been given.

#109 Jerem

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 20:21

Were you not watching Spa, then? It breaks my heart a little bit each time I see a car cutting the top of Radillion as if it was nothing. The rarer thing was for a driver to stay on the circuit than to go off.

Did they put the 4 wheels off track? I noticed in previous years that it happened sometimes, but never realized it was such a habit.



#110 Clatter

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 20:32

1. Why don't they just get rid of this 'Kerbs are not part of the track' part of the regs. They are used as such and should be considered as such, with the caveat that they are not abused. Abuse would be putting all 4 wheels over them.

 

2. Why are so many kerbs so bloody wide? Of course drivers are going to go right over them if they're a mile wide and essentially flat. Kerbs used to be shorter in width and more slanted to let the driver know that it was there, to punish overuse of them (by the tyre being caught on the other side of the lip until the kerb's end), and to give some aid in exiting the corner.

The kerbs are a complete red herring. The rules are fine as they are, it's the enforcement of them that is the problem.



#111 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 21:38

I did write that and you disagreed and then agreed. You said there wasn't an advantage but that there might be for him, so you're trying to have both sides of the argument. Do you really believe that it is possible that only Alonso might gain an advantage, but none of the others, and that the FIA sanctioned the line he took and nobody else thought they might get an advantage? I think that is incredibly unlikely.


Think away, but read again, I said it is not a clear advantage, Alonso did it but we do not know why, he didnt get a reprimand so if it was a 'clear' advantage everyone would have done it too but they didnt. So they obviously didn't think it as clear as you, but I guess you know best! You don't even know if it was against the rules just like the rest of us!

Read up on what Charlie suggested to the stewards previously on what they consider a negligible advantage, thats possibly why he had no penalty, assuming still that the corner wasn't part of a dispensation.

What you are suggesting is that Alonso took that line repeatedly when noone else did despite it being against the rules and didn't receive a warning or penalty, and you think my idea was unlikely???

#112 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 21:41

Having just glimpsed the first few responses I will still comment.
Even if the drivers briefing says it is ok really the stewards cannot allow the rules to be broken. If FA was avoiding another car or just had a 'push' to where he was driving it would be ok. But doing it regularly clearly is not as their is an avantage, if nothing else by saving tyre wear. Though if he was doing it regularly there must be a speed avantage.

'Big Time' motorsport seems to have different rules to lower levels. They all seem to be able to make their own racetrack without penalty. In the distant past I have competed at GP meetings and we were not even allowed to use the kerbs! Though the F1s drove all over them. At those events even the Touring Cars were penalised for over use of the kerbs. Though at a Touring Car event these days they drive behind them regularly,,, and then complain the tyres fail!

The rules should apply to all, F1 should set a standard. As should the stewards at these events.

#113 coppilcus

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 22:12

Oh my, so much grip in the astro turf!

#114 Briz

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 22:54

1. 100% obvious it was on purpose, Alonso is one of the very best and wouldn't let it happen on accident more than a couple of times

 

2. I think he was right to do that and he doesn't deserve a penalty. Some other drivers, especially Vettel have done similar abuse in past races and while being happy for Sebastian's success I have always wondered how fair this is. Now that it has been done in such an obvious way I expect the stewards to start thinking about a solution in the future



#115 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 22:59

Think away, but read again, I said it is not a clear advantage, Alonso did it but we do not know why, he didnt get a reprimand so if it was a 'clear' advantage everyone would have done it too but they didnt. So they obviously didn't think it as clear as you, but I guess you know best! You don't even know if it was against the rules just like the rest of us!
Read up on what Charlie suggested to the stewards previously on what they consider a negligible advantage, thats possibly why he had no penalty, assuming still that the corner wasn't part of a dispensation.
What you are suggesting is that Alonso took that line repeatedly when noone else did despite it being against the rules and didn't receive a warning or penalty, and you think my idea was unlikely???


In my opinion we do know that what Alonso did was against the rules because of the sheer number of times he did it. Unless it was an accident each time, which just isn‘t credible. Any driver with that little control of his car should be black flagged for the safety of the other drivers!

Where the driver leaves the track on purpose and without a good excuse he is breaking the rules even if he gains no advantage or if any advantage gained is negligible. See Article 20.2 SR: "A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason". Hence my suggestion above that instances of drivers going off without obvious advantage or disadvantage and without a justifiable reason, should be totted up, with warnings and ultimately penalties for persistently going off track, the underlying assumption being that F1 drivers do not accidentally drive off the track lap after lap after lap.

#116 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 23:08

Did they put the 4 wheels off track? I noticed in previous years that it happened sometimes, but never realized it was such a habit.

 

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A few I was able to find on the web.



#117 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 23:26

Think away, but read again, I said it is not a clear advantage, Alonso did it but we do not know why, he didnt get a reprimand so if it was a 'clear' advantage everyone would have done it too but they didnt. So they obviously didn't think it as clear as you, but I guess you know best! You don't even know if it was against the rules just like the rest of us!

Read up on what Charlie suggested to the stewards previously on what they consider a negligible advantage, thats possibly why he had no penalty, assuming still that the corner wasn't part of a dispensation.

What you are suggesting is that Alonso took that line repeatedly when noone else did despite it being against the rules and didn't receive a warning or penalty, and you think my idea was unlikely???

There is an advantage to running wide because you can keep your cornering speed up and, crucial to my opinion, Alonso did it a lot.  He races for a living and I trust his opinion.  We can argue that, or you can nitpick the use of 'clear' but if he was doing it then he was getting something out of it.  Clearly.



#118 Jejking

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 23:45

We as an audience simply don't know if the point of 'cutting' that corner by Alonso was discussed during the meetings with the drivers. What I don't understand is why nobody followed him in this path, since it obviously had some kind of advantage for Alonso to keep doing that.



#119 fisssssi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 00:14

I thought he was doing it because the Ferrari was understeering like a dog. It was probably easier for him just to ease the car around the corner and run wide than force the car in tighter and wear out the front tyres.

 

So I'd say he was taking that line to save his tyres.



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#120 Boxerevo

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:36

advantage is difficult to pinpoint ... does he gain lap time? probably not. Does he protect the vulnerable front right tyre and gain tyre life? yes

You sir is a master. :up:
 
But is the way Alonso drives too,he just go with his "understeer" direction way out of the corner,his natural way and does help protecting too.

Edited by Boxerevo, 08 October 2013 - 01:37.


#121 Kelateboy

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:16

Well I looked through the GP twice looking for other drivers doing this and I saw nobody "within the FOM TV feed" doing it.

 

Alonso really was the only person I saw doing this, heavy fuel and light.

 

It is not just in the race, but in the qualifying and free practices too. On my feed, Karun Chandhok kept talking about Alonso going off-circuit at Turn 6 on a regular basis.

 

IMO, the reason Alonso is not getting penalized for it is because he was not getting any unfair time advantages by going off-track on that particular corner. At some circuits, you purposely go off-track because you can gain time on your next entry, but that is not the case in Korea.



#122 Oho

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:31

Going wide give you no time advantage

 

Yeah that's why the drivers hug the inside bounds of the track all the time only to cut across the track when turning direction changes from clock- to counter clockwise or the other way around.

 

I don't think it was big deal, but it did seem clear Alonso was repeatedly going wide on the exit on purpose, and being one of the best active drivers, there must, in his opinion, have been something to gain there.


Edited by Oho, 08 October 2013 - 09:00.


#123 AlexS

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:53

mtojay and others , thanks for correction. The white line marks the track. So yes Alonso is outside the track.

 

Now what is needed is consistency in enforcing the rule, since everyone does it in several tracks.

 

 

Going wide give you no time advantage

 

 

 

It gives if the set up of the car makes that the best line to take. It might also preserves the tires since their temperature is not so high.



#124 Jvr

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:37

He was gaining definitely on the tyre wearing. If you remember everybody was reporting that Korean circuit was especially tough on the right hand side front and as you can see Alonso is coming to the straight by "hanging" the left front tyre against the kerb hence reducing the pressure on the critical right hand side one. Also, as said before here, it probably helped him to take the corner with higher speed but probably suffered on the acceleration into the straight due to lesser grip of the astroturf. However the lesser grip of the astroturf also was saving the right front during the turn.

Edited by Jvr, 08 October 2013 - 06:39.


#125 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:51

We as an audience simply don't know if the point of 'cutting' that corner by Alonso was discussed during the meetings with the drivers. What I don't understand is why nobody followed him in this path, since it obviously had some kind of advantage for Alonso to keep doing that.


It‘s quite common for certain drivers to prefer a different line to the majority of other drivers. E.g. at Silverstone Eddie Irvine always liked to go faster than everybody else into the second part of Maggotts, which put him on a tighter line into Becketts, whereas nearly every other driver preferred to compromise Maggotts more in order to get a better approach line for Becketts. These things even themselves out, more or less, and it comes down to driver preference.

This is only an issue because people are rightly querying why the FIA does nothing about a driver systematically taking a line that doesn‘t respect the track limits.

#126 Torch

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:18

Can't belive people are saying there is no advantage to carrying speed through a wider line. Although it will be limited by track surface. Alonso wouldn't have done it time and again if there wasn't an advantage to him... maybe due to understeer issues for him only. Although understeer isn't an excuse for running off the track... you should just take a slower entry speed.

 

But... how do we know it wasn't agreed in drivers briefing that there was an exception?


Edited by Torch, 08 October 2013 - 09:18.


#127 Jon83

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:22

Well, almost. Grosjean went slightly wide to avoid contact with another car. But he was deemed to have gained "an advantage". I think Alonso can be considered to have gained an advantage too regardless of whether he had cars alongside him, especially if he was doing it regularly. 

 

Would it be fine if people cut a Monza chicane straight every time even if they didn't overtake someone in the process? Still would gain an advantage.

 

No it wouldn't but again, if the stewards felt Alonso was gaining an unfair advantage, he's have been told to stop.



#128 DampMongoose

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:33

There is an advantage to running wide because you can keep your cornering speed up and, crucial to my opinion, Alonso did it a lot.  He races for a living and I trust his opinion.  We can argue that, or you can nitpick the use of 'clear' but if he was doing it then he was getting something out of it.  Clearly.

 

That depends entirely on what is on the exit of the corner.  Cornering speed can be higher, acceleration depending on the surface conditions on exit is usually compromised.  All the other drivers who also race for a living didn't do it so clearly they didn't feel it was an advantage to them in their cars.  The stewards didn't penalise him so under their rules they didn't see it as Alonso gaining an advantage either. 

 

Clear advantage? Apparently not.



#129 Silvercheese

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:02

It is not just in the race, but in the qualifying and free practices too. On my feed, Karun Chandhok kept talking about Alonso going off-circuit at Turn 6 on a regular basis.

 

IMO, the reason Alonso is not getting penalized for it is because he was not getting any unfair time advantages by going off-track on that particular corner. At some circuits, you purposely go off-track because you can gain time on your next entry, but that is not the case in Korea.

True but at Ascari and Hungary you could at least see other people do it, through the whole Korean GP I cannot for the love of it find anybody else doing this, ever...



#130 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:49

It is not just in the race, but in the qualifying and free practices too. On my feed, Karun Chandhok kept talking about Alonso going off-circuit at Turn 6 on a regular basis.

 

IMO, the reason Alonso is not getting penalized for it is because he was not getting any unfair time advantages by going off-track on that particular corner. At some circuits, you purposely go off-track because you can gain time on your next entry, but that is not the case in Korea.

 

Quite, and that's probably because Karun Chandhock is an intelligent guy and he understands you're not allowed to systematically go off the track whether it's a clear advantage or not. You can only go off if it's a genuine mistake or you have a justifiable reason e.g. taking avoiding action, and even then you have to rejoin without gaining an advantage.

 

Nothing against Alonso particularly, of course. If the stewards were interested in enforcing this they'd have mentioned it to Alonso on the Friday and he'd have changed his line, so it's not that I think he's gained a huge advantage and should have been penalised in the race. It's a very general issue of enforcement, and if the rules were generally enforced, Alonso's offences wouldn't have occurred at all. He'd have just modified his line and it would have made very little difference to the outcome of the race.



#131 Afterburner

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:32

It seems every race there's always some sort of dust-up about someone using a line that runs off the road without getting a penalty. Obviously they had to have clarified this in the driver's meeting, otherwise he would've had a penalty. Case closed. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

#132 Jon83

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:40

It seems every race there's always some sort of dust-up about someone using a line that runs off the road without getting a penalty. Obviously they had to have clarified this in the driver's meeting, otherwise he would've had a penalty. Case closed. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

 

Because this is Alonso we're talking about.

 

You're right of course.



#133 Henrik B

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 13:49

When you see one driver, and one driver ONLY, driving outside the track on every lap, it's quite natural to ask why. In Hungary, people were penalised for being mere fractions outside the lines so why not now? He may have been given permission, and then we go to my pet peeve about that these informal but binding instructions to drivers and teams never are posted anywhere...

 

We don't need to discuss if there was an advantage for Alonso though, I respect him enough that I know he would never do it otherwise.



#134 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 14:41

It seems every race there's always some sort of dust-up about someone using a line that runs off the road without getting a penalty. Obviously they had to have clarified this in the driver's meeting, otherwise he would've had a penalty. Case closed. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

 

It's not difficult to grasp but, equally, it's unproven. It could equally be that nothing was ever mentioned in the drivers' briefing but the FIA simply failed to enforce one of its regulations. Neither case would be uncommon and neither is difficult to grasp, but some of us fundamentally disagree that that is any way to run a motor race. There's a clear regulation saying you have to stay on the track, that deliberately leaving the track without justifiable reason is forbidden, and that should a car leave the track it may rejoin in a safe manner but without gaining an advantage.

 

The regulation doesn't go on to say "unless Charlie says otherwise". The reason the regulation isn't enforced properly is not because there was a "clarification" saying the rules don't apply to the exit of turn 6 at Korea; the regulation is never enforced in a consistent and fair way, and often isn't enforced at all, because the FIA doesn't deploy the manpower and collect the information that it would need in order properly to keep tabs on this issue.



#135 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 14:53

Because this is Alonso we're talking about.

 

You're right of course.

 

Not everybody who thinks the track limits should be enforced is anti-Alonso. I am anything but anti-Alonso. Plenty of other drivers do it too, and if the rules were enforced it wouldn't happen in the first place, so it's not about one driver it's about consistency, fairness and keeping the racing on the track.



#136 Afterburner

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:48

It's not difficult to grasp but, equally, it's unproven. It could equally be that nothing was ever mentioned in the drivers' briefing but the FIA simply failed to enforce one of its regulations. Neither case would be uncommon and neither is difficult to grasp, but some of us fundamentally disagree that that is any way to run a motor race. There's a clear regulation saying you have to stay on the track, that deliberately leaving the track without justifiable reason is forbidden, and that should a car leave the track it may rejoin in a safe manner but without gaining an advantage.

I don't think it's equally possible that nothing was mentioned about running outside the track limits in the drivers' meeting--if it was equally possible that nothing was mentioned about it and Alonso was challenging the integrity of the rules by using the line he was, it would've been a story during the race. Because nothing was mentioned I think it's more likely that the issue was discussed at some point over the course of the weekend. The teams don't let someone else so much as sneeze if they think it'll give them an advantage, so I find it hard to believe that they'd cope with Alonso using a potentially faster but disallowed line throughout the entirety of the race. Just my two pence.
 

The regulation doesn't go on to say "unless Charlie says otherwise". The reason the regulation isn't enforced properly is not because there was a "clarification" saying the rules don't apply to the exit of turn 6 at Korea; the regulation is never enforced in a consistent and fair way, and often isn't enforced at all, because the FIA doesn't deploy the manpower and collect the information that it would need in order properly to keep tabs on this issue.

The stewards being inconsistent and incompetent is nothing new to me, but incompetence to the point at which someone is allowed to take an illegal line for the duration of a race is a level I don't see even the stewards reaching. Just my two pence, again. I think the issue was or has already been raised and dismissed.

Edited by Afterburner, 08 October 2013 - 16:49.


#137 Skinnyguy

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:05

Alonso probably played Codemasters games too much (joke :p ).

 

Now, getting serious, he just found out there was grip there and kept using it lap after lap. That wasn´t turf, it looked like painted cement, so he got a wider line and kept his traction ability intact.

 

Was there an advantage? Yes, he wouldn´t do it otherwise.

 

Should he be penalized? No. The circuit staff should do something about this next year and lay down turf or even grass there. If there´s something good about Korea track, is the lack of curbs at many points like outside of T1, or outside of T15, or some other places in sector 3. Replicate that in turn 6 and problem dissapears. There are plenty of other corners in the calendar that had this problem and took action (Australia T4, Nurburgring T4, old A1 Ring T1...).



#138 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:07

 The stewards being inconsistent and incompetent is nothing new to me, but incompetence to the point at which someone is allowed to take an illegal line for the duration of a race is a level I don't see even the stewards reaching.


Well that‘s what happened. Alonso‘s line was definitely illegal, even if Whiting said otherwise in the driver briefing - all it means is Whiting does that is he‘s decided not to enforce a particular rule.

Whether or not the stewards made it generally known that they weren‘t going to enforce the track limits at turn 6 is scarecely relevant, since the other drivers and teams will have immediately clocked Alonso doing it and getting away with it, so they knew they could have done it too, and they preferred not to run that wide.

#139 HeadFirst

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:37

Too many "IFS". If Alonso did it every lap. If he was the only one to do it. If he gained an advantage. If it was spoken about in the drivers meeting, and was an exception. If he was warned and continued to do it. If this thread has any merit whatsoever ....... :stoned:



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#140 JHSingo

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:39

No.

 

No he didn't. And moving on...


Edited by JHSingo, 08 October 2013 - 17:39.


#141 Jon83

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:42

Not everybody who thinks the track limits should be enforced is anti-Alonso. I am anything but anti-Alonso. Plenty of other drivers do it too, and if the rules were enforced it wouldn't happen in the first place, so it's not about one driver it's about consistency, fairness and keeping the racing on the track.

 

I know that but had this been Charles Pic for instance, there would be no thread. Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel do anything and it gets a thread.

 

I think the OP and a few others here have an agenda. As I and others have said, if Alonso had gained an unfair advantage, he'd have switfly been told by race control.



#142 ArkZ

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 18:02

Alonso also run wide in Hockenheim 2012, but as @Silverchesse posted a lot of drivers are doing that and not only in Spa, it often happens in GP India, in the exit of this 180 degree corner.
Rosberg run 4 wheels off the track in his Q3 lap this year in Singapore. 
I also remember Vettel in Abu Dhabi 2010 mainly because the drivers championship was on a knife edge, Vettel in his PP lap left the track with 4 wheels quite a few times.

Edited by ArkZ, 08 October 2013 - 18:06.


#143 Skinnyguy

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 18:32

I insist: things like this should trigger reactions from circuit staff making sure next year whatever route outside the white lines is slower. Like that you end any controversy.

 

There are some of corners in the F1 calendar where the track limit layout means leaving the track is faster. These have to be reworked. You can´t police drivers leaving the track 6/60 laps to gain an advantage, you shouldn´t do it and you can´t. But when something like that is perceived, it´s time to put a bollard, turf, grass or whatever needed. Especially when you see a driver using it every lap.



#144 e34

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:51

He did it repeatedly, and I suppose that he thought he was getting an advantage. But enacting rules for then ignoring them is business as usual in F1. 

 

He should have been warned (as I think Webber was at the beginning of the year) that he shouldn't go deliberately out of the track. But anyway, who cares? F1 is just an spectacle, and there is not much fairness left in it. 

 

Mind you, I don't believe that the result of the race was affected by this, but it is another additional instance in which rules are made a mockery of. It would be enough that they put a bank of sticky stuff near the kerbs, so nobody would run over the kerb on purpose. 



#145 superdelphinus

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:04

It could do:

If staying within the track limits meant he had to ease off the throttle, not doing so could give him a time advantage

If doing that over the race meant he was wearing his tyres less, that would also give him an overall time advantage

There is no way he would have done it lap after lap if there was no advantage to it, however small it may have been

#146 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:15

Alonso also run wide in Hockenheim 2012, but as @Silverchesse posted a lot of drivers are doing that and not only in Spa, it often happens in GP India, in the exit of this 180 degree corner.
Rosberg run 4 wheels off the track in his Q3 lap this year in Singapore. 
I also remember Vettel in Abu Dhabi 2010 mainly because the drivers championship was on a knife edge, Vettel in his PP lap left the track with 4 wheels quite a few times.


I couldn‘t agree more, and this is why the FIA needs to get much, much better at enforcing track limits in F1. It will take resources and systematic monitoring: it‘s not enough to have inconsistent and sporadic enforcement, only in races and only when an obvious advantage is gained. As you rightly say, there‘s no meaningful enforcement in qualifying. When‘s the last time the stewards deleted a qualifying laptime for corner-cutting or running wide?

#147 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:31

I insist: things like this should trigger reactions from circuit staff making sure next year whatever route outside the white lines is slower. Like that you end any controversy.
 
There are some of corners in the F1 calendar where the track limit layout means leaving the track is faster. These have to be reworked. You can´t police drivers leaving the track 6/60 laps to gain an advantage, you shouldn´t do it and you can´t. But when something like that is perceived, it´s time to put a bollard, turf, grass or whatever needed. Especially when you see a driver using it every lap.


I agree the best way to keep the cars on the track is to make it slower to go off. Wherever possible I support that approach. But no circuit owner or FIA safety delegate wants to replace a nice smooth tarmac run-off zone with grass or gravel or some big-assed kerb or bollard that may launch an out-of-control car. They‘re not going to put a tyre bundle inside the apex kerb at Radillion, or restore the narrow kerb>grass>gravel layout on the exit of Pouhon, which used to send anybody who overcooked the exit straight into the tyre wall. There may be some corners where the track layout can be altered to preclude systematic abuse of track limits, but in many cases the track layout will have to remain the same and the rules will need to be enforced.

#148 e34

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:40

I agree the best way to keep the cars on the track is to make it slower to go off. Wherever possible I support that approach. But no circuit owner or FIA safety delegate wants to replace a nice smooth tarmac run-off zone with grass or gravel or some big-assed kerb or bollard that may launch an out-of-control car. They‘re not going to put a tyre bundle inside the apex kerb at Radillion, or restore the narrow kerb>grass>gravel layout on the exit of Pouhon, which used to send anybody who overcooked the exit straight into the tyre wall. There may be some corners where the track layout can be altered to preclude systematic abuse of track limits, but in many cases the track layout will have to remain the same and the rules will need to be enforced.

 

Well, if they cannot make the infringing car lose time in a natural way, they may well do it in the mordern way:  install sensors or something on the track, outside the kerbs, and every time a car is with all four wheels outside the track, deactivate its kers for two laps or something like that, that hurts performance but is not as punitive as a drive through. 



#149 Skinnyguy

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 22:30

I agree the best way to keep the cars on the track is to make it slower to go off. Wherever possible I support that approach. But no circuit owner or FIA safety delegate wants to replace a nice smooth tarmac run-off zone with grass or gravel or some big-assed kerb or bollard that may launch an out-of-control car. They‘re not going to put a tyre bundle inside the apex kerb at Radillion, or restore the narrow kerb>grass>gravel layout on the exit of Pouhon, which used to send anybody who overcooked the exit straight into the tyre wall. There may be some corners where the track layout can be altered to preclude systematic abuse of track limits, but in many cases the track layout will have to remain the same and the rules will need to be enforced.

 

Obviously there´ll be exceptions, but in this case, the exit of a 80-90 Km/h hairpin, some work can be done. As you say, some corners can´t be reworked without compromising safety.

 

Still I have the feeling I´d put the limit lower than you: I agree Eau Rouge has no physical solution that doesn´t bring extra danger, but I wouldn´t mind going back to the old Pouhon layout. It wasn´t dangerous at all. Cars went wide ended up stuck in gravel or hitting the barriers at around 50km/h cos they were so far off. I liked seeing race ending mistakes. But as they even paved slow and safe corners like Rivage, thin chance that will happen :lol:



#150 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 22:46

Obviously there´ll be exceptions, but in this case, the exit of a 80-90 Km/h hairpin, some work can be done. As you say, some corners can´t be reworked without compromising safety.
 
Still I have the feeling I´d put the limit lower than you: I agree Eau Rouge has no physical solution that doesn´t bring extra danger, but I wouldn´t mind going back to the old Pouhon layout. It wasn´t dangerous at all. Cars went wide ended up stuck in gravel or hitting the barriers at around 50km/h cos they were so far off. I liked seeing race ending mistakes. But as they even paved slow and safe corners like Rivage, thin chance that will happen :lol:


I would very much like the gravel traps put back at Pouhon too. And Eau Rougue/Radillion. But I‘m just being realistic - the people who make these decisions would expose themselves to being held responsible for any accident, injury etc that were to happen at a corner that they modified so as to make it less safe than it was before. Once the tarmac has gone in, generally speaking it‘s not going anywhere, whether we like it or not.