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Did Alonso gain an advantage doing this through the whole Korean GP?


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#151 packapoo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:09

Without wading thru the usual bumpf, interesting that you have raised this. 

It was pretty much his position at this turn throughout practices and during race.

Never at any point heard any comment on it,never saw any different camera angle highlighting it.

Pretty certain though it was often all wheels off track.

Stewards and Chassa must have been looking away.  :confused:



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#152 fastwriter

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:25

To answer the OP's question: Of course he gained an advantage, otherwise he wouldn't have taken the risk going off, because he hit the astro turf. It's more dangerous than staying on the correct racing line, but you can keep more momentum if it works out. You could see Alonso gaining 1 or 2 Meters in that corner to Hülkenberg in front and Raikkonen behind him in the first part of the race.

 

The other question is: Should he have been penalized for it? As you notice the harsh verdicts of the stewards on other drivers infringements, I was surprised to see, that Alonso wasn't even under investigation for exceeding the track limits.



#153 Coops3

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:31

That depends entirely on what is on the exit of the corner.  Cornering speed can be higher, acceleration depending on the surface conditions on exit is usually compromised.  All the other drivers who also race for a living didn't do it so clearly they didn't feel it was an advantage to them in their cars.  The stewards didn't penalise him so under their rules they didn't see it as Alonso gaining an advantage either. 

 

Clear advantage? Apparently not.

The flaw in that argument is that there's another, more likely reason for the other drivers not doing it. Namely that they didn't want to risk getting a penalty.



#154 redreni

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:33

The flaw in that argument is that there's another, more likely reason for the other drivers not doing it. Namely that they didn't want to risk getting a penalty.

 

If they wanted to do it and saw Alonso doing it they'd have simply asked Whiting "is Alonso's line in turn 6 legal, then, Charlie, because if it is we'd like to take it too?" Whiting would then have had no choice but to either tell them it was okay or do something about Alonso. The chances of 22 of Alonso's competitors wanting to take that line, not saying anything to Charlie, and not complaining about Alonso doing it, are absolutely nil.



#155 fastwriter

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:44

As I wrote before. Going over the Astro turf is risky. Maybe the others didn't want to take that risk. Could end your race if you spin and touch the wall on the left side of the track.



#156 DampMongoose

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:10

The flaw in that argument is that there's another, more likely reason for the other drivers not doing it. Namely that they didn't want to risk getting a penalty.

 

As I said previously (but I'm guessing you couldn't be bothered to read earlier posts) if there was an advantage to be had by more than just Alonso, do you not think that given the lack of any radio transmission or warning to Alonso, that the other teams would not have instructed their drivers of this and told them to take the same line if they wanted?



#157 Suntrek

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 16:23

As pointed out before in this very thread  "going off track" is judged differently depending on track. In Spa off track seems quite OK whilst in the Monaco chicane - for example - you will be told off for putting as much as two wheels off track, let alone four. Since we don't know what was said in drivers' briefing in Korea i'ts fruitless to speculate. But since Alonso's behaviour seemed quite OK with stewards - unless they were blind, deaf and idiots, and since no other driver/team complained, I think we can safely assume he did nothing wrong.

 

The comparison to what happened in to Grosjean in Hungary is irrelevant though because there he was fighting with another driver. I'm pretty sure if Alonso had gained an advantage by going off track in T6 in Korea whilst fighting with another driver he would have had a penalty.

 

That said, it would be interesting to know why Alonso did this when seemingly no other driver did. Perhaps some F1 Journo can ask him?


Edited by Suntrek, 09 October 2013 - 17:43.


#158 juanma9

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 20:27

Going wide give you no time advantage

 

Of course it does. Going wide means you can essentially take the turn at higher speed. You're faster on approach because you don't slow down as much as you should have, and you get a faster exit by sheer momentum.

 

He is doing it because is damn Ferrari understeers badly and won't turn!

 

I personally don't think it is a problem, but the stewards are very inconsistent... this would technically deserve a penalty.

 

"My car understeers" isn't a valid reason. If it understeers, go slower. That's the cost of a bad setup.



#159 Coops3

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:49

If they wanted to do it and saw Alonso doing it they'd have simply asked Whiting "is Alonso's line in turn 6 legal, then, Charlie, because if it is we'd like to take it too?" Whiting would then have had no choice but to either tell them it was okay or do something about Alonso. The chances of 22 of Alonso's competitors wanting to take that line, not saying anything to Charlie, and not complaining about Alonso doing it, are absolutely nil.

 

Maybe they didn't see Alonso doing it. Maybe they didn't think the advantage was enough to make a fuss about. Maybe they would rather just concentrate on their own races.

 

The chances of all 22 drivers falling into one of those categories (or perhaps another one I haven't thought of) are absolutely NOT nil.

 

As others have said, he wouldn't have been doing it if he didn't think there was an advantage, and if he thought there was an advantage, there probably was. How significant that advantage was is up for debate. It might have been negligible.



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#160 Coops3

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:52

As I said previously (but I'm guessing you couldn't be bothered to read earlier posts) if there was an advantage to be had by more than just Alonso, do you not think that given the lack of any radio transmission or warning to Alonso, that the other teams would not have instructed their drivers of this and told them to take the same line if they wanted?

 

You've made a couple of assumptions here though. You're assuming the other teams knew that Alonso hadn't had a warning, and you're also assuming that the other teams were on top of the situation and were aware it was happening in the first place, which isn't certain.



#161 redreni

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 15:48

Maybe they didn't see Alonso doing it.

 

Possibly, but if I noticed it at the time I'm sure it wouldn't have escaped the notice of the entire pitwall.

 

Maybe they didn't think the advantage was enough to make a fuss about. Maybe they would rather just concentrate on their own races.

 

 

In other words they had no burning desire to take the same line as Alonso, which is precisely what I was arguing. I merely said that if they did want to take that line, they would have either gone ahead and done it, or if they wanted to play it safe they could have queried Alonso's line with Whiting in the manner I suggested before they did it.

 

The fact that they didn't do that should tell you this is really not worth worrying about from the point of view of Alonso having somehow gained some huge benefit. This is of interest only for the wider points it raises about lax enforcement of track limits generally.



#162 Coops3

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 16:43

Possibly, but if I noticed it at the time I'm sure it wouldn't have escaped the notice of the entire pitwall.

 

 

In other words they had no burning desire to take the same line as Alonso, which is precisely what I was arguing. I merely said that if they did want to take that line, they would have either gone ahead and done it, or if they wanted to play it safe they could have queried Alonso's line with Whiting in the manner I suggested before they did it.

 

The fact that they didn't do that should tell you this is really not worth worrying about from the point of view of Alonso having somehow gained some huge benefit. This is of interest only for the wider points it raises about lax enforcement of track limits generally.

 

I'm not worrying about it and nor am I saying he gained a huge benefit. I'm simply pointing out the flaws in the logic of the assertion that no-one else was doing it, therefore no advantage was gained.



#163 DampMongoose

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 17:00

You've made a couple of assumptions here though. You're assuming the other teams knew that Alonso hadn't had a warning, and you're also assuming that the other teams were on top of the situation and were aware it was happening in the first place, which isn't certain.

 

The viewers here saw it, the commentators commented on it, the teams on the pit wall watching the same live feed were all looking at the same images lap after lap, I very much doubt they weren't aware it was happening.  Also, having read the transcript of the radio commentary, despite every man and his dog complaining about the right fronts graining, not once is a driver instructed to change line, and nor do any drivers make any comment about Alonso consistently having all 4 wheels off the track.  Which given the other drivers are the ones that usually complain directly to Charlie who can hear all the radio transmissions, makes the assumption that it was acceptable on the day pretty clear to me.  Further to that it suggests the gain for taking that line was seen as incredibly minor or non-existant.


Edited by DampMongoose, 10 October 2013 - 17:05.


#164 Coops3

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 17:32

The viewers here saw it, the commentators commented on it, the teams on the pit wall watching the same live feed were all looking at the same images lap after lap, I very much doubt they weren't aware it was happening.  Also, having read the transcript of the radio commentary, despite every man and his dog complaining about the right fronts graining, not once is a driver instructed to change line, and nor do any drivers make any comment about Alonso consistently having all 4 wheels off the track.  Which given the other drivers are the ones that usually complain directly to Charlie who can hear all the radio transmissions, makes the assumption that it was acceptable on the day pretty clear to me.  Further to that it suggests the gain for taking that line was seen as incredibly minor or non-existant.

I didn't notice it. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that at least some of the teams didn't either. And there's still the issue of whether the other teams actually knew that Alonso hadn't been warned. How would they know that?



#165 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 20:42

I didn't notice it. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that at least some of the teams didn't either. And there's still the issue of whether the other teams actually knew that Alonso hadn't been warned. How would they know that?

Most of the teams will have been busy managing their own race.  It is incorrect for DampMongoose to suggest that just because it did not come up means that it must have been OK.



#166 redreni

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 21:51

I didn't notice it. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that at least some of the teams didn't either. And there's still the issue of whether the other teams actually knew that Alonso hadn't been warned. How would they know that?


I don‘t know how it works in F1, but in most championships if race control warns somebody about something during the race it would do so on the race control radio frequency so that everybody hears it, would it not? The race director would surely want his warning to serve as a deterrant not only to the car to which it is directed, but to all cars, would he not? I‘d be very surprised if Alonso had been secretly warned. And judging by the fact he was still running off the circuit right up to the end of the race, I‘d wager he wasn‘t warned at all.

I still maintain it is very unlikely that the other teams failed to spot this, particularly since Alonso was doing it all through the weekend starting on Friday morning. If they didn‘t notice and thereby lost out on the opportunity to pull the same trick, I‘ve no sympathy for them at all. They should pay attention.

#167 DampMongoose

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:23

I didn't notice it. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that at least some of the teams didn't either. And there's still the issue of whether the other teams actually knew that Alonso hadn't been warned. How would they know that?

 

If he'd been warned there would have been a noticeable drop in the number of times he did it, I doubt he would have wanted to receive a penalty having been warned...  I would also suggest that they may show a driving standards flag. 



#168 DampMongoose

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:51

Most of the teams will have been busy managing their own race.  It is incorrect for DampMongoose to suggest that just because it did not come up means that it must have been OK.

 

If they were busy managing their own race, I would imagine it would follow similar methods we see and hear at every race as they look directly at what their immediate competitors are doing to see where they are racing for position after pit stop strategy and tyre conservation. 

 

As they all knew that the right front tyre was a problem in this race, (the radio transcript backs this up) the corners where that tyre takes the most load would be important to their strategy and advising their drivers accordingly.  So if on one of those corners that are critical to the tyres longevity they see a competitor protecting that tyre by taking out the steering angle and not taking the corner within the track limits while potentially carrying more speed, you think the drivers or the team who always have the tv screen in front of them, as well as all the team strategists etc back in the UK wouldn't make a comment? I find that hard to believe.  You don't have to agree with me but I personally don't see it any other way.   If someone goes off track and gains a positional advantage whether by overtaking or holding their position the drivers attacking or defending always complain on the radio.  I cannot think of any occassions where that hasn't been the case when radio communications are of comparable technology.