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Jake Humphrey - Drivers need to start doing a decent job


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#101 Raven8

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:27

The bolded is borderline schizo. First sentence is spot on. Second one is ridiculous. Redbull is ruining Alo and Ham's career? :lol:

I found the whole answer from "Coral" quite good



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#102 sopa

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:29

F1 drivers should be based on promotion and relegation to new teams rather than popularity and money.

 

As the standings are and if the drivers were not to retire:

 

Red Bull: Vettel stays/ Webber demoted                    Vettel/Alonso

Ferrari: Alonso promoted / Massa demoted               Lewis/Webber

Mercedes: Lewis promoted / Rosberg demoted         Massa/ Kimi

Lotus: Kimi promoted / Grosjean demoted                 Rosberg/Button

McLaren: Button promoted / Perez demoted              Grosjean/Di Resta

Force India: Di Resta promoted / Sutil demoted         Perez/Hulk

Sauber: Hulk promoted / Esteban demoted                Sutil/Ricciardo

Toro Rosso: Ricciardo promoted/ Vergne demoted   Esteban/Maldonado

 

---------------------------------------------

 

Bottom 3 teams can hire and fire whoever they want bar the top driver of the six who would be promoted, Maldonado being top in Williams.

 

What happens if car performance changes?

 

Based on 2012 Raikkonen would have been "promoted" from Lotus (WCC 4th) to McLaren (WCC 3rd) and look, what would have happened. As a prize he would have got a rubbish car.



#103 noikeee

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 13:30

I think Jake's comment was slightly tongue-in-cheek and not to be taken literally - include teams in it as well as drivers and he's entirely correct: Seb's only hammering everyone because the other 10 teams and the other 21 drivers are not doing a good enough job together to come anywhere near him. You can't really assign blame to him or Red Bull for doing well.



#104 bourbon

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 15:35

People say 'no matter how the car is he's performed consistently well'. Well I urge you to do a little experiment. Go to you local kart track with a bunch of friends and 'ask' the workers there to give you the best kart. If you're weight 10kg less than your friends even better. You'll be surprised how easy it is to waltz off into the distance like a champion while your friends get mired in the sh*t behind you. It says nothing of your driving ability, though I bet you'll still enjoy your friends saying 'how fast you were'.

 

It is just a common fact that if you have the best and most consistent car you will not be under the same intensity of pressure as your rivals. Whether it's your local indoor circuit or F1 its the same.

 

Now this is not a criticism of Vettel or RBR, this is just the way the sport should be reported. The media/fans have managed to somehow erase the concept of appreciating the technology of design of the cars without somehow demeaning the driver. The sport isn't reported correctly. The drivers really aren't the ultimate catalyst of performance, the designers and engineers are. if you don't think Vettel, Hamilton, Button or half the grid (not including Webber) could do what Seb is doing in that car you are deluding yourself.

 

Your reporting of it manages to erase the driver.  You claim you don't, but you take for granted that you could be told that the car is fast and the best.  However, this isn't carts with multiple drivers and keepers of cars to tell you which is fastest and will run off into the distance.  You have to be shown by a driver on the team.  You were shown by Vettel and now you declare than any top driving captain dunzel could do the same if you just plop them in the seat.

 

We are not deluded if we think Hamilton or Alonso or any other top driver getting into the RBR car might have trouble getting what Seb gets out of the car.  You shortchange the difficulty of harmonizing a car and driver.  As Horner pointed out, the team has no idea if another top driver would have similar results because the team would have to supply a car that worked as well with that driver's specific style and needs and the driver would have to work with the team to get it.  It is always car + driver and you can't leave either one out.

 

Your statement takes all of that for granted, imo.  I think that is what Hamilton was trying to point out with his series of tweets about Seb; you still require a great driver to show you the full potential of a machine. 

 

Also, that is not what Hamilton presumably was talking about - what Jake was referring to.  Hamilton was speaking about the races being dulled by dominance and while I think Jake was a bit off the mark, Hamilton's statement wasn't in anyway productive and to be fair to Jake, his understanding was reasonable. 


Edited by bourbon, 08 October 2013 - 15:49.


#105 bub

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:30

Humphrey is obviously a bit of a simpleton.

 

And not a very objective one.



#106 thechin

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:43

Humphrey is a giant, man-titted, freak. He only used F1 as a stepping stone in his career.



#107 Timstr11

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:47

We would not be in this boring situation if Redbull and Vettel had the guts to accept a top driver alongside Vettel. 

Hamilton and Alonso have both been rejected.


Edited by Timstr11, 08 October 2013 - 17:06.


#108 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:59

Throwaway comment.  No need to overanalyse.



#109 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:01

We ould not be in thisboring situation if Redbull and Vettel had the guts to accept a top driver alongside Vettel. 

Hamilton and Alonso have both been rejected.

They are doing whats best for themselves as any team would.  No team is obligated to make the sport entertaining.  If they can get things done without paying for a 2nd top driver, then good on them.



#110 undersquare

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:07

By these standards, its blind faith calling any driver great.  How many teams did Clark drive for?  How many teams did Senna win a WDC with?  How many teams has Alonso won a WDC with?

Lol, selective data baby.  Senna @ Toleman, Lotus???

 

And surely you've seen the arguments that Alonso only won his wdc's with the best car on the illegal Michelins?

 

Now we have Jake, who surely represents millions of idiots, saying it only needs the other drivers to make a bit of an effort and poor Sebi will look ordinary :D .

 

But I have to agree that F1 would be more interesting if we could go back to the beginning of last year when any of half a dozen drivers might be on for the win.  NOT saying that F1 isn't interesting at all atm, but that would be better.

 

Meanwhile Lewis is gently trying to encourage his mate Sebi out of Red Bull I suspect.  Quite right too  :smoking: .



#111 sennafan24

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:28

Its never going to be a case of Vettel winning titles with another team, its more about performance. Senna' Schumi and Prost all performed well in more than one top team, as have Alonso and now Lewis.

 

Now, Vettel did perform very well at Toro Ross, but a section of people are still going to dismiss that because of its strong Newey/RB connections.Personally I think that is very harsh. But lets just say for a second I agree with those who will dismiss Seb's Toro Rosso efforts.

 

Vettel is 26, he will leave RB, I am 99% sure of it. And I am also 99% sure he will be able to perform very well in a top team, if you look at the diversity of tracks he performs well at and his timing/positioning/handling in 2013, he has evolved into a great driver, I think he is very quick but even if I am overestimating his speed I think a top car will cover for that and allow him to perform well at the top of the field.

 

On and on the subject of Alonso turning down RB, I believe it was not as obvious pre 2010 that RB would be a force. If the regulations had not changed, Newey believed it would have been hard for them to catch up with McLaren and Ferrari.



#112 Sin

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:45

what a few of you miss to quote is humphreys follow up tweet

 

https://twitter.com/...289878352121857

 

and thats from yesterday


Edited by Sin, 08 October 2013 - 17:48.


#113 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:10

what a few of you miss to quote is humphreys follow up tweet

 

https://twitter.com/...289878352121857

 

and thats from yesterday

Could you please specify which is the "follow up" tweet? I really, honestly don't have time to read through some ex-BBC hack's timeline (yeah, Jake, that's you, you fat ****).



#114 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:21

Lol, selective data baby.  Senna @ Toleman, Lotus???

Monaco 1984. No selective memory. Just a fact of life.

 

My first season watching F1. My reason for hating Prost's guts forever after.



#115 sennafan24

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:36

 

My first season watching F1. My reason for hating Prost's guts forever after.

Now then, now then



#116 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:58

Now then, now then

Hey, I like emotion in my sports.

 

... otherwise I'd just watch cricket. :)



#117 undersquare

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:30

Monaco 1984. No selective memory. Just a fact of life.

 

My first season watching F1. My reason for hating Prost's guts forever after.

The selective memory was suddenly 'forgetting' everything but wdc's as the criterion for driving exceptionally well, in order to exclude Toleman and Lotus from Senna's history, and Clark's other-series exploits, thus presenting Sebi as being on a par with those greats despite his exclusively Newey-assisted F1 career thus far.

 

I think even Jake would spot that little trick, tbh,  In fact Jake thinks the other drivers just need to pull their socks up to bring themselves up to Sebi's level.  Not that I agree for a second.



#118 sennafan24

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:32

Hey, I like emotion in my sports.

 

 

:up:

 

Part of the reason why Senna is my favorite driver.

 

I still like Jake, he did a really good job at the BBC.


Edited by sennafan24, 08 October 2013 - 20:33.


#119 Myrvold

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:03

Hey, I like emotion in my sports.

Just based on your few last posts here, it seems like you are misunderstanding "hatred" and "emotions"



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#120 Coral

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:03

I just watched the 1989 Japanese Grand Prix on Sky. Ahhh those were the days...that was when the races were genuinely exciting. I don't think there was a single race back then when I wasn't on the edge of my seat. I miss the days of Senna vs Prost...two great drivers fighting tooth and nail to win. And they were team-mates too! And what could have been nicer than a first GP win for the lovely Sandro Nannini...  :love:

 

Today's Red Bull Borefest could never compete with what we had in those days...

 

Totally wallowing in nostalgia tonight...  :)


Edited by Coral, 08 October 2013 - 21:04.


#121 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:07

The selective memory was suddenly 'forgetting' everything but wdc's as the criterion for driving exceptionally well, in order to exclude Toleman and Lotus from Senna's history, and Clark's other-series exploits, thus presenting Sebi as being on a par with those greats despite his exclusively Newey-assisted F1 career thus far.

 

I think even Jake would spot that little trick, tbh,  In fact Jake thinks the other drivers just need to pull their socks up to bring themselves up to Sebi's level.  Not that I agree for a second.

Sorry mate, I didn't go through the entire thread.

 

Some of my favorite Senna moments were precisely in that nasty looking Toleman and then the gorgeous Lotus. After mentioning Monaco 1984 in an earlier post, I went on YouTube and watched the race with the great Murray Walker/James Hunt commentary. The pass on Lauda! OMFG, I creamed my pants.

 

Back on topic. I really, really wish Seb had had another season or two with the junior RB team. Kid's a brilliant racer, and I hate to see his career being tainted by the Newey association.

 

Jake's Jake I guess. Not getting my post removed for pointing out his doucheness,



#122 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:10

Just based on your few last posts here, it seems like you are misunderstanding "hatred" and "emotions"

Hatred is an emotion, isn't it? I admit the word is strong, but take it in context. I "hate" Prost in the same vein that I "hate" PSG as an OM fan.

 

P.S.: "Hatred" or "dislike" of a driver or team does not presume a lack of respect; cf Alain Prost or Ferrari, both entities I "hate/dislike" and yet have a tremendous respect for.


Edited by alpinesmuggler, 08 October 2013 - 21:23.


#123 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:17

 

Totally wallowing in nostalgia tonight...  :)

For real, once you go on YouTube and see those gorgeous cars with their massive mechanical grip and few electronic gizmos, you know you're in for a few hours of pure joy.



#124 bourbon

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:46

The selective memory was suddenly 'forgetting' everything but wdc's as the criterion for driving exceptionally well, in order to exclude Toleman and Lotus from Senna's history, and Clark's other-series exploits, thus presenting Sebi as being on a par with those greats despite his exclusively Newey-assisted F1 career thus far.

 

I think even Jake would spot that little trick, tbh,  In fact Jake thinks the other drivers just need to pull their socks up to bring themselves up to Sebi's level.  Not that I agree for a second.

 

Clark is not an F1 great for driving in other series.  Nor are Senna's drives at Toleman and Lotus necessary to his greatness.  So I would disagree with your reasoning.

 

I agree Jake isn't saying anything about Sebastian himself - just that the others need to step it up and I agree.  People blaming Red Bull for their boredom and other woes are looking at the situation from the wrong end up, imo.



#125 Raven8

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:51

Clark is not an F1 great for driving in other series.  Nor are Senna's drives at Toleman and Lotus necessary to his greatness.  So I would disagree with your reasoning.

 

I agree Jake isn't saying anything about Sebastian himself - just that the others need to step it up and I agree.  People blaming Red Bull for their boredom and other woes are looking at the situation from the wrong end up, imo.

Humphrey said it's up to the 21 other drivers to do a decent job, what should a driver do whos car is 2sec slower a lap? jump out & push :drunk:



#126 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 22:21

Clark is not an F1 great for driving in other series.  Nor are Senna's drives at Toleman and Lotus necessary to his greatness.  So I would disagree with your reasoning.

 

I agree Jake isn't saying anything about Sebastian himself - just that the others need to step it up and I agree.  People blaming Red Bull for their boredom and other woes are looking at the situation from the wrong end up, imo.

Oh yes, Clark is indeed an F1 great because he showed proper racing chops outside of the F1 comfort zone. m*********er could drive, period.

 

As for Senna's results in a POS Toleman and an admittedly decent Lotus over several seasons would have made this board explode with praise, seeing as to how we had a monster celebration of Hulkenberg's racing skills over a couple dozen laps in Korea just a few days ago.

 

As for Jake saying what Jake is saying, this board has more collective smarts than that.



#127 undersquare

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 22:30

Clark is not an F1 great for driving in other series.  Nor are Senna's drives at Toleman and Lotus necessary to his greatness.  So I would disagree with your reasoning.

 

I agree Jake isn't saying anything about Sebastian himself - just that the others need to step it up and I agree.  People blaming Red Bull for their boredom and other woes are looking at the situation from the wrong end up, imo.

Senna is obviously greater for having done great drives in different cars, and so is Clark.  It's basic: if a driver is always in the same car, what can you know about the the driver?  The car and the driver are inseparable so you can only say the combination is great.

 

Any scientific experiment isolates the variable they're interested in.  So let's see Sebi in a non-Newey car.  Until then we cannot, as a matter of logic, know exactly how much of his achievement is his own.

 

Anyway I don't 'blame' Red Bull, I just want a change please.. I blame the FIA to some extent but that's another topic, Newey simply sees the playing field more clearly than others.  But Sebi in another car would be fascinating, and so would LH or FA in the Red Bull.  Then if Sebi is really great we'll see it that much more clearly.  His fans should welcome a move.  So should Jake, to help him understand the role of the car in motor racing...



#128 Winter98

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 23:12

Lol, selective data baby.  Senna @ Toleman, Lotus???

 

And surely you've seen the arguments that Alonso only won his wdc's with the best car on the illegal Michelins?

 

Now we have Jake, who surely represents millions of idiots, saying it only needs the other drivers to make a bit of an effort and poor Sebi will look ordinary :D .

 

But I have to agree that F1 would be more interesting if we could go back to the beginning of last year when any of half a dozen drivers might be on for the win.  NOT saying that F1 isn't interesting at all atm, but that would be better.

 

Meanwhile Lewis is gently trying to encourage his mate Sebi out of Red Bull I suspect.  Quite right too  :smoking: .

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I'm pretty sure Senna only won WDCs with Maca?  Am I wrong here?

 

And Alonso only won WDCs with Renault, or am I wrong here?

 

Same goes for Clark's WDCs at Lotus, correct?

 

So, why would it make a difference to his legacy if Vettel only wins WDCs with one team?



#129 Winter98

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 23:24

The selective memory was suddenly 'forgetting' everything but wdc's as the criterion for driving exceptionally well, in order to exclude Toleman and Lotus from Senna's history, and Clark's other-series exploits, thus presenting Sebi as being on a par with those greats despite his exclusively Newey-assisted F1 career thus far.

 

I think even Jake would spot that little trick, tbh,  In fact Jake thinks the other drivers just need to pull their socks up to bring themselves up to Sebi's level.  Not that I agree for a second.

Sorry, but I don't see what driving for a different team has to do with anything.  Let's say SV statys at RBR for the next eight years. 

 

If they give him the best car each year, he will almost certainly break MS's WDC record, and that will cement his legacy.

 

If they don't, then he will be driving the second, third, or fourth best car on the grid and will almost certainly put in some great performances in those cars, just like other great drivers have done when not in the best car.  Just like he did in the Torro Rosso. 

 

I don't see what the badge on the car has to do with anything.


Edited by Winter98, 08 October 2013 - 23:26.


#130 undersquare

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 23:53

Sorry, but I don't see what driving for a different team has to do with anything.  Let's say SV statys at RBR for the next eight years. 

 

If they give him the best car each year, he will almost certainly break MS's WDC record, and that will cement his legacy.

 

If they don't, then he will be driving the second, third, or fourth best car on the grid and will almost certainly put in some great performances in those cars, just like other great drivers have done when not in the best car.  Just like he did in the Torro Rosso. 

 

I don't see what the badge on the car has to do with anything.

I just explained it to bourbon.  Not that it's obscure.  If Vettel only drives for Red Bull then we can't separate the driver from the car can we? 

 

And no if he only drives the best car he may have the best numbers but he won't be seen as an all-time great driver.  This is why even you have to say "almost certainly" about his driving in some non-best car.

 

If we run a poll Vettel or Senna, 4x wdc vs 3x wdc what will be the result?

 

Don't start with the Torro Rosso thing, even Bourdais qualified that Newey clone in 4th.

 

Anyway we're flirting with being OT.  I'm sure even Jake gets this elementary point really.



#131 Winter98

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 00:10

I just explained it to bourbon.  Not that it's obscure.  If Vettel only drives for Red Bull then we can't separate the driver from the car can we? 

 

And no if he only drives the best car he may have the best numbers but he won't be seen as an all-time great driver.  This is why even you have to say "almost certainly" about his driving in some non-best car.

 

If we run a poll Vettel or Senna, 4x wdc vs 3x wdc what will be the result?

 

Don't start with the Torro Rosso thing, even Bourdais qualified that Newey clone in 4th.

 

Anyway we're flirting with being OT.  I'm sure even Jake gets this elementary point really.

How does driving for a different team separate driver from car?  No, I can't guarentee the future.  Senna will certainly be rated higher, but his stats are incomplete due to death so 3wdc vs. 4wdc is a meaningless comparison.  SV won in the Torro Rosso, I'm sure you can find an excuse to dismiss any victory if you look hard enough.

 

I would say the other teams need to do a better job.  What will 2014 bring?  I checked a betting site, and Vettel is better than even odds (10/11) to be WDC in 2014.


Edited by Winter98, 09 October 2013 - 00:14.


#132 lbennie

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 00:23

 if you don't think Vettel, Hamilton, Button or half the grid (not including Webber) could do what Seb is doing in that car you are deluding yourself.

 

:rotfl:

 

You really think half the grid is better than webber?

That is comedy gold.


Edited by lbennie, 09 October 2013 - 00:23.


#133 bourbon

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:57

Senna is obviously greater for having done great drives in different cars, and so is Clark.  It's basic: if a driver is always in the same car, what can you know about the the driver?  The car and the driver are inseparable so you can only say the combination is great.

 

Any scientific experiment isolates the variable they're interested in.  So let's see Sebi in a non-Newey car.  Until then we cannot, as a matter of logic, know exactly how much of his achievement is his own.

 

 

Well you are arguing against Sebastian.  I was just pointing out to @Alpinesmuggler, that a great drive outside of F1 does not make you an F1 great.  That would be like ice hockey players that were also skating champions doing those twirls at the Olympics were somehow made greater hockey champions for their twirling efforts.  Not.  

 

As for Seb, I don't do any serious judging until drivers have completed their run in F1.   So I would disagree that when he goes to Ferrari we will know anything more than he is a great driver - which we already know.

 

Anyway I don't 'blame' Red Bull, I just want a change please.. I blame the FIA to some extent but that's another topic, Newey simply sees the playing field more clearly than others.  But Sebi in another car would be fascinating, and so would LH or FA in the Red Bull.  Then if Sebi is really great we'll see it that much more clearly.  His fans should welcome a move.  So should Jake, to help him understand the role of the car in motor racing...

 

I already saw it to the degree you are talking about - in the 2008 STRF.  Leaving Monza out of it, once they got the new chassis, the car got better, and Seb made the most of it as it improved.  That was some great driving, which is why more than 1 top team was interested even then.  But if you need more time and examples, I can relate.  You will have to wait.


Edited by bourbon, 09 October 2013 - 01:59.


#134 MightyMoose

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:52

Have we reached the end of the debate about Humphrey's comments?

 

Reading the last few posts would seem to indicate we have........ let's see if we can return to the topic.



#135 andyF1

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:12

I feel rather frustrated with Formula 1 at the moment.

 

At the moment the sport has four supreme drivers, four drivers (LH, SV, FA and KR) who I would personally rate in the top 30 F1 drivers ever. Not since the 80's has the sport seen this much driving talent on the grid. This could and should be a golden season for the sport. Instead we have a predictable season where the winner of each race can easily be predicted on the Friday morning. (Just like 1992, 2002, 2004)

 

I long for another season rather like 2010 and 2012 where we can watch these four great drivers and others battling it out and fighting for the win every race. Seasons like 1997, 2003, 2008, 2010 and 2010 where the sport and the winner of each Grand Prix is highly unpredictable, where at each weekend 3 or 4 different teams are capable of winning the race. I wish we had that this season. What a spectacle it would be.

 

By the way I'm not anti Vettel or anti Newey and Red Bull



#136 inca_roads

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:58

I feel rather frustrated with Formula 1 at the moment.

 

At the moment the sport has four supreme drivers, four drivers (LH, SV, FA and KR) who I would personally rate in the top 30 F1 drivers ever. Not since the 80's has the sport seen this much driving talent on the grid. This could and should be a golden season for the sport. Instead we have a predictable season where the winner of each race can easily be predicted on the Friday morning. (Just like 1992, 2002, 2004)

 

I long for another season rather like 2010 and 2012 where we can watch these four great drivers and others battling it out and fighting for the win every race. Seasons like 1997, 2003, 2008, 2010 and 2010 where the sport and the winner of each Grand Prix is highly unpredictable, where at each weekend 3 or 4 different teams are capable of winning the race. I wish we had that this season. What a spectacle it would be.

 

By the way I'm not anti Vettel or anti Newey and Red Bull

 

Indeed. My frustration lies in the fact that Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel have been in the sport a fair while now, yet we've only seen any combination of them together as team-mates for the miserly sum of one season. Senna-Prost and Lewis-Alonso, in the same car, are the type of true iconic battles the sport needs and remembers, but it seems enough people want to do anything but pair any of these guys together.



#137 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:26

Indeed. My frustration lies in the fact that Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel have been in the sport a fair while now, yet we've only seen any combination of them together as team-mates for the miserly sum of one season. Senna-Prost and Lewis-Alonso, in the same car, are the type of true iconic battles the sport needs and remembers, but it seems enough people want to do anything but pair any of these guys together.

And boy do I miss the Mansell/Piquet '86 Williams cluster****. I really hope next year's pairing of Fernando and Kimi will produce some sparks.



#138 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:27

Indeed. My frustration lies in the fact that Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel have been in the sport a fair while now, yet we've only seen any combination of them together as team-mates for the miserly sum of one season.

 

Right, it's one thing to know that a Red Bull is going to win the next race, it's a lot less appealing if we also know the driver. It would have been fantastic to see Hamilton or Räikkönen in the second Red Bull, but who knows, Ricciardo might prove to be better than we think.

 

Anyway, the comments by Mr. Humphrey are of course silly. The drivers are doing a 'decent job'. From Hamilton down to Pic (no offense), they're working their behinds off to train for races, to give feedback to the team, to work out to stay in shape - while also showing up to nonsensical sideshows to entertain the likes of Mr. Humphrey. If anything it's the teams that need to shape up, to build a car that can get people like Alonso and Hamilton within a few tenths of Vettel. If they manage that we'll have plenty of close races.

 

The big finger, however, needs to pointed at the FIA for coming up with a set of regulations that pretty much outlaws any development, any ingenuity, and any way to compensate for a lack of performance in that one category it does seem to be interested in: aerodynamics. F1 is driving around with almost 10 year old engines, Fiorano, Mugello, Silverstone or what have you hasn't seen a proper test in years, the teams are forbidden from choosing which tyres they want to put on their cars, they've padded the calendar with cookie-cutter tracks where 2nd and 3rd gear corners are the order of the day, and everybody involved keeps wondering why a drinks company keeps embarrassing the auto industry's great names.


Edited by Nonesuch, 09 October 2013 - 15:30.


#139 sennafan24

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 17:18

Clark is not an F1 great for driving in other series.  Nor are Senna's drives at Toleman and Lotus necessary to his greatness.  So I would disagree with your reasoning.

 

Senna's greatness is contributed to by his drives at Toleman and Lotus,  just like Seb's Toro Rosso drive at Monza could be seen as a early sign of greatness in 5 years later.

 

The Toleman drive is legendary, he basically "won" the race in a back packer car, it put Senna on the map. It would be akin to a driver winning in the Williams today, or at least the Force India. It was a performance of pure driving merit.

 

Senna's Lotus career also produced some good drives in a faltering team, a team that had fallen badly behind the times. It was kind of like Limp Bizkit trying to be cool in 2006'  their time had passed and they were decreasing in all areas. Senna still produced some fantastic drives and earned his drive at McLaren, on the same merit Seb earned his RB drive. Both hit gold and ran with it.

 

Senna's journey did include more merit, Seb was fast tracked faster. But different times, different measures. Lewis you could argue hit gold straight away, so I would be a hypocrite if I demonized Seb for being nurtured.

 

Senna for myself, and in the opinion of author Tom Rubython (for what it is worth) was a great driver by the time he arrived at Lotus. He peaked as a driver between 1991-1993 in my view and became "great" in around 1988, maybe a tad earlier. But his raw talent made him the class of the field  in terms of speed from the mid 80's going forward, he was a unpolished diamond that needed seasoning.

 

Very similar to how I see Seb actually, whilst others will say he has been the best on the grid since 2010, I disagree. For myself, I think 2013 he has evolved into being a "great driver" from a "very good driver" that I believe he was in 2010-2012. Drivers evolve and get better or worse, I believe you can spot the signs of greatness in potential great drivers if you evaluate their careers in retrospect. I can note Seb's Monza 2008 as a performance of a great driver, like I can spot greatness in Senna's performances at Lotus.

 

So as you can see, I am judging both by similar standards, despite having different routes and time-frames. 


Edited by sennafan24, 09 October 2013 - 17:19.


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#140 BorkoF2012

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 23:41

Simon Lazenby came out with a cracker the other day about How Vettel would be 4th in the contructor championship if he alone were a constructor. Hardly a big deal given Alonso, Lewis, Kimi and a few others could all be sixth.

Michael Schumacher won the contructors championship himself alone 3 times, in 2001, 2002 and 2004.