224 replies to this topic

[fastwriter]

 

We don't know whether in (say) a Ferrari Sebi would be better or worse than Nando and Lewis.  We know Senna and Clark were blinding in a range of different cars, but it's very much a question whether the same is true of Vettel. 

 

It's a leap of faith to say he doesn't have this question hanging over him and is 'at worst' as good as Hamilton and Alonso.  He could be better or worse.  He's obviously brilliant in the Red Bull, but that's a brilliant car that's perfectly tuned to him and vice-versa.  His early career is good but is it really up with the Greats?  Well he was young etc etc, fair enough, but that doesn't quite demonstrate it does it?

 

So if I wanted Sebi to go down in history as the greatest of all I'd definitely be wishing for him to move teams and do it there too, because otherwise people will always wonder.  Whereas if I wanted him to look great but wasn't really really convinced deep down, I'd want him to keep racking up the numbers in safety at RBR.

 May I ask you one question: Why do you think, Hamilton has proven, that he is good with a bad car? For the first time in his career he changed team and not for the worse. Vettel on the other hand, drove for Toro Rosso and won a Grand Pix in it and came close to it in only his third race for this team in Japan, only to be robbed of the opportunity by some brainless driver who wanted to play games in a safety car period in torrential rain. Which driver was that?

Vettel scored points more often than not in a mediocre car. Something, that can be said for Senna, but not for Clark. And definitly not for Hamilton and Alonso.

Edited by fastwriter, 08 October 2013 - 14:00.

[fed up]

We don't know whether in (say) a Ferrari Sebi would be better or worse than Nando and Lewis.  We know Senna and Clark were blinding in a range of different cars, but it's very much a question whether the same is true of Vettel. 

 

It's a leap of faith to say he doesn't have this question hanging over him and is 'at worst' as good as Hamilton and Alonso.  He could be better or worse.  He's obviously brilliant in the Red Bull, but that's a brilliant car that's perfectly tuned to him and vice-versa.  His early career is good but is it really up with the Greats?  Well he was young etc etc, fair enough, but that doesn't quite demonstrate it does it?

 

So if I wanted Sebi to go down in history as the greatest of all I'd definitely be wishing for him to move teams and do it there too, because otherwise people will always wonder.  Whereas if I wanted him to look great but wasn't really really convinced deep down, I'd want him to keep racking up the numbers in safety at RBR.

Which is precisely what he is going to do IMO.

 

I would have expected him to jump in the Ferrari for 2014 as a 4 x WDC's and pit himself against the driver widely regarded as the best of the current bunch.

 

Alas not!

 

I wouldn't bet against Vettel trouncing Schumacher's WDC count and retiring from F1 altogether.

[GlenP]

Wow. When I first dabbled with an F1 forum (a different one) there was a massive on-going denial about Schumacher. Some people just could not accept his quality and and dragged up any excuse to "prove" that he was actually pretty ordinary but for some reason (never specified or explained) he was the chosen one and was thus afforded every unfair advantage.

 

Here we are with MKII of the same denials.

 

FFS. He is the youngest ever three times WDC and will very soon have four in a row. He has totally wiped out Mark Webber who, despite ludicrous denials not dissimilar to the ones mentioned above, was a highly regarded driver before Vettel showed us what brilliance is actually all about.

 

If four Championships on the trot is not enough proof for you then you have just got your head in a massive bucket of sand, probably with a blindfold an and your fingers in your ears.

[Winter98]

Which is precisely what he is going to do IMO.

 

I would have expected him to jump in the Ferrari for 2014 as a 4 x WDC's and pit himself against the driver widely regarded as the best of the current bunch.

 

Alas not!

 

I wouldn't bet against Vettel trouncing Schumacher's WDC count and retiring from F1 altogether.

 

If there's one thing all previous great drivers have in common, it's their desire to move to a slower car.  Why isn't Vettel following suit?

[sopa]

If there's one thing all previous great drivers have in common, it's their desire to move to a slower car.  Why isn't Vettel following suit?

 

Senna always wanted the best car possible. Hence he broke contract with Toleman to move up to Lotus, then moved up to McLaren powered by Honda, and once McLaren lost momentum, was desperate to join Williams.

 

I am sure Alonso wants as good car as possible too, just he hasn't been fortunate (?) enough in career choices. Stayed in Renault until Michelin departed and he saw them going backwards, then moved to McLaren, who had become good. Then fell out with them and was forced to stay in midfield Renault (he would not have liked that IDEALLY) and then joined Ferrari with great belief they are going to be a top team for the future. But there hasn't been an opening in Red Bull for him after 2008.

Edited by sopa, 08 October 2013 - 14:15.

[Seanspeed]

To answer your question OP, Vettel was not poor in F3. 

 

Sad hater thread. 

[undersquare]

you can be sure he will driver for ferrari one day. he stated more than once that it is his dream to drive for them. 

 

i will be so amused seeing how the ferrari fans who now hate him turn around in their opinion about him once he starts winning in a red car.

Yes and I'm looking forward to it.

 

Lol there will be some changing of attitudes once Sebi is in Red, indeed.  It was the same with Nando.  Especially if Sebi's good-but-not-quite-stellar early career turns out to undersell his talent and he's brilliant in the Ferrari too.  Bring it on Sebs  .

[DrivenF1]

It's obvious that Vettel's dominance is down to a number of factors:

 

1) Adrian Newey's genius

2) Red Bull's flawless race and strategy operations

3) Vettel's talent and attributes

 

Vettel is perfect for Red Bull, he's small which allows Newey to push the envelope more (create a more optimised car). His driving style can exploit the Red Bull's strength, allowing him to get on the power far earlier than anyone else including Webber.

 

At the end of the day not since Schumacher and Ferrari has a driver and a car been this well suited/optimised together. Congratulations to Seb as that's what F1 is about, however if he ever moves teams we'll see how adaptable and versatile he is. Red Bull is a rather special case/car.

Edited by Cult, 08 October 2013 - 14:27.

[Moosed]

Webber was 'top rated' until he met Vettel.

 

Webber is 37 and 5 years past the age at which F1 drivers traditionally peak. On top of this he is driving a car which has been designed around his team mates driving style for the past 4-5 seasons (something Red Bull openly admit)

 

He is a no longer a good benchmark to use when discussing how great Vettel is, a few years ago yes... now not so much.

Edited by Moosed, 08 October 2013 - 14:24.

[mtojay]

Webber is 37 and 5 years past the age at which F1 drivers traditionally peak. On top of this he is driving a car which has been designed around his team mates driving style for the past 4-5 seasons (something Red Bull openly admit)

 

He is a no longer a good benchmark to use when discussing how great Vettel is, a few years ago yes... now not so much.

 

if a driver is in his prime at 32 you guys should be scared even more. sebastian has 4 wdcs while being 6 years away from his prime. damn. 

[st99]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=kDkK8a4jHZ8

 

VET vs HAM 2005 F3

 

I wouldn't call Vettel's performance in F3 poor, especially his first year, on the last part of the season he was frequently in the podium (his first part of the season wasn't so good but it's understandable given that he was getting used to the F3 cars). I agree that in his second year he didn't set the world alight but there had to be something that F1 people saw in him at that time.

 

He didn't get the BMW Sauber test driver role in the lottery, they chose him because they were impressed for what he achieved in FBMW and you know how Red Bull is with young drivers that don't get the success they expected... So to have two F1 teams pushing for you to get into the sport is not something that many drivers have so he shoud have been quite special.

[fed up]

If there's one thing all previous great drivers have in common, it's their desire to move to a slower car.  Why isn't Vettel following suit?

Schumacher did!

Lewis did!

Alonso did

 

Vettel won't follow suit because the stats are more important than opinions on forums or the press. If he gets 8 WDC's the records will show that he is the best.

 

Others are interested in their legacy and the challenge

[Seanspeed]

If there's one thing all previous great drivers have in common, it's their desire to move to a slower car.  Why isn't Vettel following suit?

Not that I agree with your comment that all great drivers desire to move to a slower car, but anyways, unlike Lewis, I don't think Vettel is overly concerned with being seen as great.  He wants to win and is obviously staying where he thinks his best chances of that are.  I cant blame him for that.

[mnmracer]

On top of this he is driving a car which has been designed around his team mates driving style for the past 4-5 seasons (something Red Bull openly admit).

Red Bull has always said they built the fastest car, and it is up to the drivers to drive it fast.

And to claim any favoritism already in 2009, is completely ludicrous.

[mnmracer]

 

Schumacher did!

Lewis did!

Alonso did

Schumacher and Lewis did in the same way Vettel did moving from Torro Rosso to Red Bull: they moved to a team that was worse the year before, but got better when they arrived.

And to suggest Alonso moved to Renault because of the challenge is completely mental.

 

Vettel won't follow suit because the stats are more important than opinions on forums or the press. If he gets 8 WDC's the records will show that he is the best.

 

Others are interested in their legacy and the challenge

You should probably put a 'zero-evidence claim' warning there.

[GlenP]

Schumacher did!

Lewis did!

Alonso did

 

Vettel won't follow suit because the stats are more important than opinions on forums or the press. If he gets 8 WDC's the records will show that he is the best.

 

Others are interested in their legacy and the challenge

You are making yourself look stupid. Schumacher didn't go to Ferrari because he thought that would be more difficult. He went there because they are the premier F1 team and they were building a dream team.

 

Lewis didn't go to Mercedes because he wanted to do miracles either - dream ON. They are massively well funded and will be the works team when the engine formula changes. If you think he intentionally moved to a "worse" team you are deluded.

 

Alonso too - similar to above.

 

Any driver will try and get in the best team he can.

[Lucass]

Wow. When I first dabbled with an F1 forum (a different one) there was a massive on-going denial about Schumacher. Some people just could not accept his quality and and dragged up any excuse to "prove" that he was actually pretty ordinary but for some reason (never specified or explained) he was the chosen one and was thus afforded every unfair advantage.

 

Here we are with MKII of the same denials.

LOL so true   My first F1 ramblings on a forum were at DailyF1 back then and yes this is certainly MKII of the same lame denials, conspiracy theories and people looking for anything to denigrate the Champion with.

 

I find it very amusing mostly, the frustration and despair almost leaks from some posts and threads.

This thread is a perfect example of what it was back then with Schumacher only then it was mostly about his touring car exploits.

 

Deja vu completely and the irony he's German too

[TheUltimateWorrier]

 

Why was Vettel so poor in Formula 3?

Easy, the power of the index finger. He became a great driver only when he started pointing his finger at a jaunty angle.

 

 

See! Finger at normal angle, no brilliance.

 

 

Finger at silly angle = 4 WDC.  Simple!

[sopa]

LOL so true   My first F1 ramblings on a forum were at DailyF1 back then and yes this is certainly MKII of the same lame denials, conspiracy theories and people looking for anything to denigrate the Champion with.

 

I find it very amusing mostly, the frustration and despair almost leaks from some posts and threads.

This thread is a perfect example of what it was back then with Schumacher only then it was mostly about his touring car exploits.

 

Deja vu completely and the irony he's German too

 

Lol. I knew there were lots of argument, why Schumacher wasn't great, but I didn't remember him being rubbish in DTM was a serious argument!

Edited by sopa, 08 October 2013 - 14:56.

[Mr.Wayne]

If there's one thing all previous great drivers have in common, it's their desire to move to a slower car.  Why isn't Vettel following suit?

Really? 

that must explain why Senna left McLaren for Williams, or why Alonso rejected the likes of a long-term contract in RedBull for Ferrari... 

[seahawk]

Lets look at it from a different direction. Say Vettel is really average.

 

So Webber must be way below average. But Newey´s cars must be unbeatable. But then Kimi could not win a WDC in a Newey car, so obviously he must be worse than Vettel. So next year we will get a clear answer, if Alonso dominates Kimi, the theory is proven that Hamilton > Alonso ~ Button > Vettel > Kimi.

 

Or we could look at another direction. Vettel is average, but RBR does not notice, So obviously the team can not be that bright, so why can the other teams with the way better driver not beat them?

Edited by seahawk, 08 October 2013 - 14:58.

[William Hunt]

Vettel was not poor at all in F3, in fact he was excellent! How can you say that a driver who was vice-champion performed poorly? And Vettel's teammate Paul di Resta was (still is) 1 year older as Vettel? Di Resta scored 5 wins that year, Vettel 4 and there were just 11 points between them: they were pretty well matched.

[mnmracer]

Lets look at it from a different direction. Say Vettel is really average.

 

So Webber must be way below average. But Newey´s cars must be unbeatable. But then Kimi could not win a WDC in a Newey car, so obviously he must be worse than Vettel. So next year we will get a clear answer, if Alonso dominates Kimi, the theory is proven that Hamilton > Alonso ~ Button > Vettel > Kimi.

 

Or we could look at another direction. Vettel is average, but RBR does not notice, So obviously the team can not be that bright, so why can the other teams with the way better driver not beat them?

But imagine the implications if Alonso can not dominate Kimi...

Image the implactions, if Kimi beats Alonso...

[EthanM]

You are making yourself look stupid. Schumacher didn't go to Ferrari because he thought that would be more difficult. He went there because they are the premier F1 team and they were building a dream team.

 

Lewis didn't go to Mercedes because he wanted to do miracles either - dream ON. They are massively well funded and will be the works team when the engine formula changes. If you think he intentionally moved to a "worse" team you are deluded.

 

Alonso too - similar to above.

 

Any driver will try and get in the best team he can.

 

don't be silly, Alonso left Renault for McLaren expecting McLaren to be dead slow. Then left Renault for Ferrari knowing full well it would be 2 seconds off the pace. That's why he turned Red Bull down back then, cause he had a premonition they would be dominant in the future and that's just not how Fred rolls.

 

Lewis in fact was begging Horner for a drive cause he was told in fact that Red Bull would be a tier 2 car after 2012, that's why he wanted to go there, dont you know that? And no he didn't choose to go to a manufacturer team a season before engines change, no, he heard that Mercedes had hired too many tech chiefs and he went there for the challenge of sorting all those tech chiefs out.

 

Schumi ... he didn't cherrypick the best from Benetton and move them to Ferrari with him, effectively establishing Benetton v2 in red with a bigger paycheck. No.

[Gilles4Ever]

so far off topic, never coming back