Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Red Bull Rejects. Did they really get a fair chance?


  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#1 MustangSally

MustangSally
  • Member

  • 368 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:47

We all have likes and dislikes, some are based on fact most on emotion. I am of the firm belief that fast forwarding a driver to F1 is in general a very very bad idea, as you will have the carcasses of a driving career lying by the wayside, when the drivers in question could most likely have had a better chance were then not pushed along as fast as they were.
 
Klein, Alguersauri are perfect examples of that and I expect Sirotkin to be the next one.
 
Personally I have always felt that of the Red Bull juniors who were dropped, Alguersauri appeared to have the most upside. However as stated fact is that he of all the drivers is basically without a drive since he was dropped, shows how much I know compared to those who do actually know.


This intriguing post was slightly off-topic on the silly season thread, but I'd like to hear more opinions on this subject.

KWSN - DSM makes two good points. The first being that the Red Bull programme pushes people too young, too soon. For someone like Alguersuari to be all washed-up, career over at 21 does seem a rather cruel and summary fate.

The second observation in the post is that RBR rejects never make it back. Is this really because people actually know what we don't? As an outsider, with little reference, I found it impossible to evaluate Alguersuari versus Buemi . . . or either against Ricciardo. Do other team managers, with similarly sparse information, even consider these guys ?

Klien was highly rated by Honda and I believe he now does some simulation work for Williams . . . but his F1 driver chances were killed by Red Bull with one stone. Scott Speed's meteoric rise quickly ended in a fist-fight with STR's principal.

I can understand Red Bull's need to promote Ricciardo. But is it because he is the next best thing, or because their driver programme was simply looking - too obviously - like a very early graveyard for talent?

Advertisement

#2 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,552 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:53

This is a difficult one that I haven't really been able to form a concrete view; it can easily be argued both ways.

 

Would these drivers have even reached F1 without the driver programmes? Look at the current struggles of Frijns to so much as complete a GP2 season.

 

Then again, a driver programme is a conveyor belt that stops for no driver. Alguersuari has been the biggest waste as a result of this in my opinion, but again would he have gone so far in the first place? Would Buemi have landed a factory Toyota Le Mans seat without F1 on his CV?



#3 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,393 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 October 2013 - 14:59

The only error i can see is that they did not retain Alguasari, not cos he may have been a superb driver but if they felt Dan and Vergne were the future they needed Jaimie as a measuring tool. 

 

I think Vernge threw them off course, he impressed so much in 2011 that they felt they needed to pit him directly against Daniel, Daniel has separated himself in the past 7 or 8 races so in retrospect it would have been better to measure Dan against a known quantity. 



#4 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:04

For greats (in the making) like Vettel, it is a great chance to be fast-forwarded to Formula One, because at entry level they're good enough to be competitive. If you're 'only good' -no offense to either of the drivers, but you know what I mean- it can be a killer.

 

The problem is, although I don't know the details of the contracts, with Red Bull you're very limited to just two teams. If you're not good enough to bump a driver in Red Bull, or to hold a place at Torro Rosso while waiting for a RB seat (already meaning you're the 3rd best driver in the Red Bull family), there's a big risk that new promising talent, talent that might be 1st or 2nd best of the family, will get a chance.



#5 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:13

When they took a look at Alguersauri they wanted a new Vettel, when they looked at Dani, they needed a new Webber.



#6 dau

dau
  • Member

  • 4,569 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:20

A very early graveyard for talent? I'd guess Red Bull's program brought more drivers to F1 than all the other programs combined. All those people at least got a chance in F1, even if it was just a slim one. Is it really Red Bull's fault if they can't attract attention from the other teams?

 

Sure, it's sad what happened with Alguersuari. But he had two and a half years in F1 and obviously didn't impress any of the other teams enough to take him on. And considering he seems to have disappeared completely from the racing scene, i wonder if his heart was that much in it anyway. I mean, compare him with Grosjean when he was fired. He went back to sportscars, then AutoGP, then GP2 to fight his way back to F1. Alguersuari had experience, fans, is still much younger than Grosjean was back then and would have been an asset to any team in similar lowly series - instead, DJ SQUIRE rather spends his time in Ibiza and with his new online radio show.

 

Klien had his chance as well. If Honda/Brawn/Merc rated him so highly, why didn't they keep him? It's easy to say you were impressed with someone, but at the end of the day, did they ever really consider him over Barrichello or Button? They even had Super Aguri at their disposal if they really wanted to keep him on the grid and in the family, but they didn't bother.



#7 EthanM

EthanM
  • Member

  • 2,104 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:22

The "problem" for the red bull system is that they have a constant flow of potential drivers but only 2 race seats in which to evaluate them. And they are not looking for a "good enough" driver, that they can find in the driver market, they don't need to invest millions into shaping one. They are looking for exceptional. So you have drivers with limited amount of time to prove they have the spark. If they don't, they get sacked. The problem there is that a) they have been sacked by a major player, so other teams aren't going to take a risk on them unless obviously it's somehow clear RB made a mistake and b) the drivers, by riding on RB's coattails into F1 can't really put together a sponsor package that would afford them a second chance with another team, especially since they will have to try and put together said sponsor package as ... RB rejects.

 

Is it fair? Well, it gets people to F1 with minimal fuss and bypassing the obscene financial requirements to actually get there. Beyond that it is in the drivers' hands to impress. I mean yeah I feel for Jaime and Buemi and Speed and Klein etc, but lets not forget, they did get a free ticket to F1 and ultimately failed to impress enough.



#8 totgate

totgate
  • Member

  • 72 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:24

I think the problem is that Vettel came in this way and now he is the yardstick everybody else is compared with. Some of the guys in Toro Rosso definitely deserved a better future....



#9 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,670 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:37

Have any of these drivers been snapped up by other F1 teams because of their massive talent? These guys got an opportunity some drivers never get and they didn't make the grade.


Edited by Watkins74, 09 October 2013 - 15:53.


#10 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 36,816 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 09 October 2013 - 15:46

Logically Sirotkin should be fast-tracked to F1 and kept there, after ten years he ought to be unbeatable.  But this scarcely happens.  It's like there's a plateau of jadedness that acts as a glass (jade?) ceiling.  How many drivers have hit their peak after treading water for so long?   Not many, Mansell and Button for example.  But is that because drivers get dropped too soon?  Would Alguersuari be a world-beater by now had he not been moved out?  Is it fair though to keep someone in a seat being mediocre when there are young talents knocking at the door?

 

It's a tricky one, but then again would you rather have Buemi behind a wheel or Hulkenburg? 

 

We miss out these days because the driver market is static and there is no fresh team blood.  In 1981 there were new teams in Toleman, March and Theodore, 1982 saw a third March, 1983 Spirit and a third Williams, 1984 a third Renault, 1985 Minardi, Beatrice and Zakspeed and so on.  Yes, a lot of these failed pretty sharpish, but it worked in two ways - firstly it created a turnover of drivers, and secondly it meant dead wood would be dropped as Team X could not guarantee a top ten constructors' finish with the new bugs from Jordan or Rial or whoever emerging from the quantum foam.



#11 Jackmancer

Jackmancer
  • Member

  • 2,774 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 09 October 2013 - 16:03

I think the only one that didn't get a fair chance at F1 was Sebastian Bourdais. He did fairly well, it was only that his teammate was Vettel, which at that time we didn't precisely know how good he would be.



#12 st99

st99
  • Member

  • 379 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 09 October 2013 - 17:07

Liuzzi did find a ride after being dropped by RB in Force India and  HRT.

 

And, you're right, they're being compared with what Vettel did in Toro Rosso, I seem to remind that Alguersuari said once that if they wanted the RB seat they had to win a race like Vettel did. That isn't fair, Vettel is a 3 times WDC, those kind of drivers aren't that easy to find.


Edited by st99, 09 October 2013 - 17:14.


#13 Frank Tuesday

Frank Tuesday
  • Member

  • 880 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 09 October 2013 - 17:10

Given that there are thousands of drivers struggling to progress up the ladder into F1, I'd say that, no, the Red Bull drivers haven't gotten a fair chance at F1.  They have all had an exceedingly generous chance at F1.  Free from the struggles of trying to find sponsorship, they were allowed to focus on honing their skills in stable teams.  I'm sure that Algesuari is regretting that he made it to F1 instead of having his career halted in FR3.5 because someone else had a better sponsorship package to offer.  Is he talented enough to be in the current F1 field?  Yes, but so are hundreds of other drivers that will never get the chance. 


Edited by Frank Tuesday, 09 October 2013 - 17:11.


#14 Lucass

Lucass
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 09 October 2013 - 17:45

It's an interesting 'problem' indeed.

Yes the Red Bull program is a conveyor belt that delivers a new candidate for F1 almost every year, so with only 2 slots available at Toro Rosso the time for evaluation is pretty short so they run the risc their career ends early.

 

However would any of them have progressed into F1 without the program?

And why was there never any interest from the other teams in the program's drivers?

 

I think all Red Bull rejects had a fair chance maybe with the exception of Bourdais but he was unlucky to be teamed up with Vettel and was held to higher standards with his Champcar experience. He was handsomely compensated for his F1 exit though.

 

Alguersuari didn't get along with Marko and was dropped like a stone

 

Buemi does a lot of sim work for Red Bull and surely they helped him get that Toyota seat.

 

I fear for Vergne though, if Ricciardo performs next year and Seb stays his journey with Red Bull could end there, however he seems highly regarded as a racer in the paddock so maybe he could be the one who finds a seat in another F1 team.



#15 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 1,758 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 09 October 2013 - 17:49

Buemi and Alguersuari had their chance for nearly three seasons. They just weren't good enough. That Toro Rosso from 2011 was a very good car, yet both Buemi and Alguersuari didn't extract the most out of that car. That cost them dearly and got both of them replaced for 2012.



#16 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 11,424 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 09 October 2013 - 18:27

Did they really get a fair chance?

 

No.  They got an absolutely magnificent, brilliant chance that every other young race driver would sell his grandmother to have.  They got mentored and supported all the way to F1, without needing to scrounge around for money.  If they then got rejected, they have no-one to blame but themselves



#17 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 2,642 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 09 October 2013 - 18:38

I think the only one that didn't get a fair chance at F1 was Sebastian Bourdais. He did fairly well, it was only that his teammate was Vettel, which at that time we didn't precisely know how good he would be.

Don't forget Bourdais was retained for 2009... and was beaten by less experienced Buemi. That's why he was out.


 



#18 BlackCat

BlackCat
  • Member

  • 797 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 October 2013 - 18:57

iirc, in 70ies a racer was after two years in F1 considered a veteran (and happy to be still alive), not "a promising young talent".



#19 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 6,014 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 09 October 2013 - 19:08

Did they really get a fair chance?

 

No.  They got an absolutely magnificent, brilliant chance that every other young race driver would sell his grandmother to have.  They got mentored and supported all the way to F1, without needing to scrounge around for money.  If they then got rejected, they have no-one to blame but themselves

 

Not much more to say than that. While I do hold that Alguarsauri was brought into F1 a little too young, the ex-Red Bull rookies have all been given a chance to perform, and if not gain a place with Red Bull try to impress other teams on the grid to give them a drive once Marko passes them over. Without Red Bull, most of them may not of even got a test in F1 machinery.



Advertisement

#20 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,393 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 October 2013 - 19:09

I think the only one that didn't get a fair chance at F1 was Sebastian Bourdais. He did fairly well, it was only that his teammate was Vettel, which at that time we didn't precisely know how good he would be.

 

He was shite. "I av no gwip, no gwip" SAME THING EVERY WEEKEND on the radio. 



#21 zippythecat

zippythecat
  • Member

  • 81 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 09 October 2013 - 19:49

Try reading the articles on the Red Bull program in the last issue of Autosport, they're very illuminating. Takeaway from them for me were: 1). It was Newey's idea, not Marko's, to sack both STR drivers after 2011, as it was clear by then that neither would ever be promoted to RBR; 2). They look for flaws in a driver's approach, try to pound them out, and cut bait if they can't; 3). They demand total commitment from the drivers in the program; and 4). They're not looking for guys who can win at STR, they're looking for guys who can win at RBR.

 

Seems clear that Alguersuari likely fell short in the commitment department, and didn't impress much on the track either. At the time I too thought they gave up on him way early but Jamie post-sacking does seem more interested in the DJ biz than in resurrecting his F1 career. 

 

As to point 4 and the myth that the STR guys needed to win at STR to be considered for promotion, remember that Vettel's promotion to RBR was announced in 2008 during the run-up to Hockenheim, long before the race at Monza. His win at Monza was a very nice bonus but didn't change his career trajectory.



#22 Shambolic

Shambolic
  • Member

  • 414 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 09 October 2013 - 20:46

Torro Rosso reflect the ideology rampant in F1 in general recently - Chasing ever more youthful drivers after somehow seeing that as the best way to go.

 

In my opinion it isn't, drivers now are considered in the latter half of their career when in the past at the same age they'd be a possible F1 star of the future. Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton were/ are/ should be exceptional talents that break the conventional rules of a driver needing time to learn their racecraft and mature before stepping in an F1 car. It's all too fast paced off the track now, a driver barely out of school gets a momentary chance to shine, and if they're less than perfect they get thrown on the scraphpea before most people would even be starting on their career.

 

I see it all the time with remarks about older drivers - I'm not going to say Rubens is good enough to be on the grid, or that I have any particular interest in him, but his age keeps being raised as the reason he shouldn't be given his seat when surely it ought to be his ability, or lack thereof.



#23 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 1,758 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 09 October 2013 - 20:47

As to point 4 and the myth that the STR guys needed to win at STR to be considered for promotion, remember that Vettel's promotion to RBR was announced in 2008 during the run-up to Hockenheim, long before the race at Monza. His win at Monza was a very nice bonus but didn't change his career trajectory.

This. Also, Vettel would never have won that race if the weekend had stayed dry. I also doubt he would have won if Hamilton had qualified himself well into Q3.



#24 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,180 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 09 October 2013 - 20:51

iirc, in 70ies a racer was after two years in F1 considered a veteran (and happy to be still alive), not "a promising young talent".

Indeed, but there's a difference: quite a lot of up and coming F1 drivers were also doing other categories, be it Sportscar/prototypes, F2, F5000, G5 touring cars.... You got your experience not from just one series. And some guys did a surprising amount of testing as well those days, pre- or mid-season. They raced, practised, raced.

 

Nowadays we see the sorry sight of drivers that just can't make it for whatever reason (often financial) and just watch and wait, having an occasional FP1 tryout in an F1 car and do hardly anything else apart from training their muscles and keep contact with their manager.



#25 DarthWillie

DarthWillie
  • Member

  • 1,673 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 October 2013 - 21:22

biggest problem for these drivers was never having to build connections with different sponsors. Once dropped by Red Bull they usually had no sponsor to fall back on and had difficulty finding another drive.



#26 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 09 October 2013 - 21:37

When they took a look at Alguersauri they wanted a new Vettel, when they looked at Dani, they needed a new Webber.

 

:up:

 

Nailed it!



#27 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 09 October 2013 - 21:39

This. Also, Vettel would never have won that race if the weekend had stayed dry. I also doubt he would have won if Hamilton had qualified himself well into Q3.

 

Same if the Ferraris qualified better or if it was dry for them.

 

Still, regardless, Vettel beat them in the wet and it was wet for everyone else.



#28 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 09 October 2013 - 21:44

As to point 4 and the myth that the STR guys needed to win at STR to be considered for promotion, remember that Vettel's promotion to RBR was announced in 2008 during the run-up to Hockenheim, long before the race at Monza. His win at Monza was a very nice bonus but didn't change his career trajectory.

 

Vettel had already shown remarkable speed in his odd drives in 2007... I think he got a 4th place in China then, pace future STR drivers failed to show, so he was already on the radar of many teams, and RB wisely secured his services early on.



#29 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,180 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 09 October 2013 - 22:32

Vettel had already shown remarkable speed in his odd drives in 2007... I think he got a 4th place in China then, pace future STR drivers failed to show, so he was already on the radar of many teams, and RB wisely secured his services early on.

Seb was already a test driver for BMW and they really wanted to keep the option to sign him despite already having the pretty successful Heidfeld/Kubica pairing, but Red Bull refused to let him go.

See e.g. 

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/55538

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/55728

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/60519

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/60569

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/61232



#30 FenderJaguar

FenderJaguar
  • Member

  • 1,450 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 09 October 2013 - 23:11

Klien, Alguersari, Buemi, Liuzzi - in my opinion - they hade chances but weren't good enough.

When a driver is really good I think they are able to see it. At least I hope so and I don't think those drivers had it. What they want is a Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi.



#31 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 09 October 2013 - 23:26

Klien, Alguersari, Buemi, Liuzzi - in my opinion - they hade chances but weren't good enough.

When a driver is really good I think they are able to see it. At least I hope so and I don't think those drivers had it. What they want is a Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi.

 

Yip, those 4 are good drivers, but don't that extra half a second beneath their right foot as world champions do.



#32 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 14,184 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 09 October 2013 - 23:40

They (mostly) are exceptional racers to make it into F1. So IMO it's mainly a mind thingy. Remember Alonso and to a lesser extent Webber showing their skill in a Minardi? It's not the car alone. I'd even say, that a bad car is a good tool to develop the right attitude to overcome adversary

 

Here 2 recent examples: (Both for subscribers only)

 

Vettel got his head sorted out while in F3.

http://plus.autospor...ettel-attitude/

 

Grosjean sorted out his mind this year

http://plus.autospor...ikkonen-beater/

 

I'm pretty sure that the Red Bull Rejects had help in that part of their career as driver too. For some it takes a while, maybe longer than Red Bull can wait.

 

Indeed, but there's a difference: quite a lot of up and coming F1 drivers were also doing other categories, be it Sportscar/prototypes, F2, F5000, G5 touring cars.... You got your experience not from just one series. And some guys did a surprising amount of testing as well those days, pre- or mid-season. They raced, practised, raced.

 

Nowadays we see the sorry sight of drivers that just can't make it for whatever reason (often financial) and just watch and wait, having an occasional FP1 tryout in an F1 car and do hardly anything else apart from training their muscles and keep contact with their manager.

Remember how Hamilton spent a lot of time in the simulator before getting his first ride in a F1 McLaren? Not the same as real racing admittedly, But it counts as practicing.



#33 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,043 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 10 October 2013 - 00:11

My comment over in the silly season thread started of the Red Bull driver comparison between Alguersauri and Ricciardo being made by a poster, who through some contrived use of statistics. As I wrote I saw a lot more upside to Alguersauri than the other Red Bull academy drivers, when making that comment I mostly were thinking Speed and Liuzzi.

 

Speed who in my view was overhyped entering F1, showed nothing special and should have been dumped sooner than he actually was. In various posts on these boards, I have repeatedly stated how I felt that Liuzzi was not worth the seat at any of the 4 teams he participated for despite my most likely very emotional opinion of his shortcomings, he managed 94 participation's, so he did get more than enough chances to show what he was worth, and failed.

 

F1 is and should be a cutthroat business and if a driver have 2 seasons and fail to deliver his employer, then I do not see any reason to find the driver being treated unfairly. I would actually want a lot more drivers dropped, since as someone posted above there are hundreds of drivers equally talented as the bottom half of the current grid.

 

Di Resta - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat. 

Sutil       - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

Massa    - We know how good he used to be, he is not anymore and there is no reason for a team to take a chance on him.

Chiton     - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.   

Van der Garde - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

 

I obviously understand that picking drivers at the rear of the grid is also about money, however making the field a closed franchise was the start of blocking some seats with the wrong rear ends. Not all Minardi's drivers ended as WDC or Grand Epreuve winners, but they managed to actually rewards talented drivers with a seat.

 

Alonso

Webber

Alboreto

Fisichella

Nannini

Trulli

 

Were winners who at one time had seats there, that is what the rear of the grid teams should strive for over the money paying drivers, I know that Minardi also employed that type of drivers however apart for the above listing, there were others and quite accomplished drivers who were in Minardi at one time or another.

 

As you may note I have and had a soft spot for Minardi :lol:  the below is me with the Minardi mechanics Sunday after the  Belgian Grand Prix at the "Restaurant Moderne" in Spa.

 

Minardi-1.jpg

 

:cool:

 

 



#34 Tron

Tron
  • Member

  • 614 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 10 October 2013 - 00:56

What year was that Spa photograph?



#35 zippythecat

zippythecat
  • Member

  • 81 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:25

This. Also, Vettel would never have won that race if the weekend had stayed dry. I also doubt he would have won if Hamilton had qualified himself well into Q3.

 

Absolutely, as to Hamilton. It's become a bit lost to memory that he had a couple of duff weekends in the last third of the 2008 season, and Monza was one of them.

 

F1 is and should be a cutthroat business and if a driver have 2 seasons and fail to deliver his employer, then I do not see any reason to find the driver being treated unfairly. I would actually want a lot more drivers dropped, since as someone posted above there are hundreds of drivers equally talented as the bottom half of the current grid.

 

Di Resta - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat. 

Sutil       - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

Massa    - We know how good he used to be, he is not anymore and there is no reason for a team to take a chance on him.

Chiton     - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.   

Van der Garde - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

 

Agreed, especially the cut-throat approach. Apparently that was Newey's argument for getting rid of Buemi and Alguersuari. I wouldn't retain any of the drivers you named but would differ with you only in arguing that Massa was always overrated. My recent watch-through of the season 2008 suggests he was as error-prone then as he is now and only got into a position to win a WDC through Hamilton's mistakes (including Hamilton's ruining of Raikkonen's race at Canada).

 

Also enjoyed the (intentional?) misspelling of Chilton. The amended version is an accurate summary of his skills.


Edited by zippythecat, 10 October 2013 - 01:27.


#36 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,826 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:33

When they took a look at Alguersauri they wanted a new Vettel, when they looked at Dani, they needed a new Webber.

 

Not at all, they think DR is the real deal and a future champ, Adrian said hes the most talented youngster he has seen since vettel came onto the scene.

 

I think the RB young driver program is doing very well. They will now have 2 graduates driving for the senior team. Which is as successful as it can be.

 

The lack of opportunity in F1 for the drivers that have been cast asside, shows that the rest of the paddock seems to trust Red Bulls talent evaluation.

 

Red Bull really do have all bases covered at the moment; they really are top of the class at the moment when it comes to car design, team operations, car & driver developement.

What an awesome force they have turned into, considering where they were 5 years ago.

 

I think this definitely breeds a bit of jelousy, hence why we're seeing the traction control BS being spoken around the traps. I think their young driver program suffers the same way. As it is probably the YD program which recieves the most publicity and is, there for, easiest to shoot down. But the reality is, it's drivers are getting race seats in f1, and the best of the bunch are getting a top drive in the sport. Which is about all you can ask.


Edited by lbennie, 10 October 2013 - 02:43.


#37 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,184 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:43

i think the biggest issue with these rejects is not their rejection by RBR (which be fair is a WDC winning team and wants the cream of the crop), but what happens after their rejection. the treatment they get leaves much to be desired.

 

of all the Red bull driver programs  rejects, i.e not only limited to STR and RBR, but dating back to Sauber days, i can only think of Buemi to be in some capacity supported afterwards by Red bull . what i mean is that, they didn't offer any opportunity for Bernoldie, jaime, scott or luizi after their departure in any form of other sports, which when one thinks about it is kind of cruelty shown by Red bull junior program. where do you think will JEV go once he's thrown out of STR???

 

all the junior drivers knows (i think) in their heart that there is only one way in Red bull program, if u'r good, u may shine, but most often than not, you'll be let go. but i don't blame Red bull or marko for it either, as the field is so competitive now, there  is no room for emotions i guess.

 

also, i think there is some sort of stigma attached to being a Red bull driver, if u fail, no one will take you anywhere (bar buemi, he made it to Toyota somehow). it's not like with a ferrari or mclaren young driver program. if one is let go from Red bull junior driver program, his/her career is pretty much Fu#*ed up. maybe perhaps that's why Felipe Nasr choose not to take red bull junior driver option. this i find disturbing and disheartening . 

 

regarding the issue with DR's ability, i honestly think there were far better options out there for RBR within there drivers pool. they never gave neal jani a go at F1. and yes, i'm a fan of Jaime, and i think he was choosen far too early for his age (he's 23 FFS), and even then, he outperformed Buemi. but as i said, RBR junior program has such vast pool of upcoming drivers, they can't linger on one. but still, i think Red bull should have supported him afterwards.  :cry:



#38 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:14

Not at all, they think DR is the real deal and a future champ, Adrian said hes the most talented youngster he has seen since vettel came onto the scene.

 

I think the RB young driver program is doing very well. They will now have 2 graduates driving for the senior team. Which is as successful as it can be.

 

The lack of opportunity in F1 for the drivers that have been cast asside, shows that the rest of the paddock seems to trust Red Bulls talent evaluation.

 

Red Bull really do have all bases covered at the moment; they really are top of the class at the moment when it comes to car design, team operations, car & driver developement.

What an awesome force they have turned into, considering where they were 5 years ago.

 

I think this definitely breeds a bit of jelousy, hence why we're seeing the traction control BS being spoken around the traps. I think their young driver program suffers the same way. As it is probably the YD program which recieves the most publicity and is, there for, easiest to shoot down. But the reality is, it's drivers are getting race seats in f1, and the best of the bunch are getting a top drive in the sport. Which is about all you can ask.

 

But the rumour mills says that they were willing to offer Mark a new contract, but he refused. So Dani was only confirmed after Mark made clear his intention to leave. When they cut lose Alguesuari, there was no position avialable at RBR. Although I give it to them, that he seems to have lacked commitment to F1, with his DJ job takig a too big part in his life.


Edited by seahawk, 10 October 2013 - 06:18.


#39 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,826 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:03

But the rumour mills says that they were willing to offer Mark a new contract, but he refused. So Dani was only confirmed after Mark made clear his intention to leave. When they cut lose Alguesuari, there was no pisition avialable at RBR. Although I give it to them, that he seems to have lacked commitment to F1, with his DJ job takig a too big part in his life.

 

What makes you think they would have taken Alguesuari if mark had retired then?



Advertisement

#40 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:23

Well, they would have had an opening. It could have been Bueimi, but imho the situation this year was different. Mark did leave, so they "just" had to promote the TR driver, they prefered. Alguesuari or Buemi would have needed to impress them so much, that they would decide to fire Webber. (Mark was surely having a different standing within the team in 2011 as well)



#41 Thomas99

Thomas99
  • Member

  • 1,415 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:28

The only error i can see is that they did not retain Alguasari, not cos he may have been a superb driver but if they felt Dan and Vergne were the future they needed Jaimie as a measuring tool. 

 

I think Vernge threw them off course, he impressed so much in 2011 that they felt they needed to pit him directly against Daniel, Daniel has separated himself in the past 7 or 8 races so in retrospect it would have been better to measure Dan against a known quantity. 

 

JEV and RIC have been team mates in a few series over the years, with Ricciardo being the clear winner in all of them. I guess it shows that the junior categories do carry over to F1.



#42 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 3,579 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:48

I dont find having my career funded into F1 a unfair thing in the slightest...

 

I can imagine at least half those names would of never touched a F1 steering wheel without F1. Not talent related, simple dollars alone.

 

Perhaps we are looking at this glass from the wrong angle.



#43 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 2,699 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:06

So the topic started from Alguersuari and Ricciardo comparison and who is better.

 

It is true that Alguersuari had strong race results, but how can we compare cars? Late in 2011 STR was pretty good, on several circuits 4th best behind RBR, McLaren and Ferrari. So Alguersuari got 7th and Buemi was often running together with him (before retiring). I am not sure 2013 STR has ever been fourth best. I think Ricciardo qualifies better than Alguersuari, but I am not sure Alguersuari's race form is better than Ricciardo's - both can shine, but can be inconsistent. But by the virtue of qualifying Ricciardo looks stronger. Let's remember Alguersuari was quite average for the first half of 2011 and was about to be dropped.

 

Often people want to rate drivers only based on half a year, what they did. Kovalainen was strong in the second half of 2007. Did he become a top driver based on that? "No" is the answer.



#44 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,043 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:23

What year was that Spa photograph?

 

2004.

 

:cool:



#45 Spillage

Spillage
  • Member

  • 845 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:55

But the rumour mills says that they were willing to offer Mark a new contract, but he refused. So Dani was only confirmed after Mark made clear his intention to leave. When they cut lose Alguesuari, there was no position avialable at RBR. Although I give it to them, that he seems to have lacked commitment to F1, with his DJ job takig a too big part in his life.

This is a good point. Would RB have taken Ricciardo even if Webber had wanted to stay on? And if so, can the junior production line really be considered a success? Let us not forget that RB initially went after Raikkonen; Ricciardo was not even first choice replacement for Webber. Given this apparent willingness to dip into the driver market, does RB really need TR at all? Probably not, in my opinion.



#46 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 36,816 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 10 October 2013 - 18:18

I dont find having my career funded into F1 a unfair thing in the slightest...

 

I can imagine at least half those names would of never touched a F1 steering wheel without F1. Not talent related, simple dollars alone.

 

Perhaps we are looking at this glass from the wrong angle.

 

It can be looked at another way.  Because RB thought they had the talent, the drivers didn't need to find the sponsorship that might have been unavailable.  So, unlike many others, they got to F1 on talent alone...

 

Time was this was not unusual, things like the Elf programme and even Racing For Britain helped a few on their way.  Now though it's easier to get to F1 if you're Venezuelan than if you're talented.



#47 icecream

icecream
  • Member

  • 374 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 10 October 2013 - 20:38

Now though it's easier to get to F1 if you're Venezuelan than if you're talented.

 

i'm guessing most venezuelans would disagree  :)

 

but yes, a select few might have more opportunity, and it's not talent alone that gets them into f1. though I think it's a bit unfair to undermine the talent of (some) pay drivers.  no matter how much money you throw around, if you can't race, you're never going to last in F1.

 

as for the rbr junior program, the way they got rid of buemi and alguersauri was somewhat brutal.  fair enough it's cut throat and all, but I feel it's unprofessional to not give them sufficient warning that they were being let go (ie when there were potentially other seats still available). 

 

as for ric, my guess is that they may have liked to keep him with TR for another year, but then webber decided to leave.


Edited by icecream, 10 October 2013 - 23:27.


#48 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,180 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 10 October 2013 - 21:49

 Let us not forget that RB initially went after Raikkonen;

Not at all. It seems Horner would have welcomed him, but he's not the man in charge.



#49 Amphicar

Amphicar
  • Member

  • 1,855 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 10 October 2013 - 22:29

Fair? what's that got to do with anything? Life isn't fair - and F1 is even less .