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Jalopnik weighs in on the Red Bull advantage


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#1 Magoo

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:16

Discuss. 

 

 

 

http://jalopnik.com/...nolo-1442585020

 

 

 



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#2 Kalmake

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:44

Article seems to assume that if they do it outside ECU it could somehow be legal. It can't: "No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver."

 

Would be mad to run an illegal system when they already have both championships won.

 

 

Singapore is one of the longest circuits and has most corners. 2 seconds there isn't as much as it would be in other places.

 

It's funny how quickly everyone seems to have forgotten tyres on the second half of this season. They are still tricky and need to be managed. Both Rosberg and Alonso were pacing themselves. It's one of the few circuits where you can prevent overtaking even if the car behind is notably faster.


Edited by Kalmake, 10 October 2013 - 12:45.


#3 desmo

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 17:56

I assume--and have since KERS was introduced--that everyone at the sharp end of the grid is running some form of TC baked into the KERS.



#4 Lightknight

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 21:02

Article seems to assume that if they do it outside ECU it could somehow be legal. It can't: "No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver."

 

Would be mad to run an illegal system when they already have both championships won.

 

 

Singapore is one of the longest circuits and has most corners. 2 seconds there isn't as much as it would be in other places.

 

It's funny how quickly everyone seems to have forgotten tyres on the second half of this season. They are still tricky and need to be managed. Both Rosberg and Alonso were pacing themselves. It's one of the few circuits where you can prevent overtaking even if the car behind is notably faster.

Correct bout th rules, however in 2014 it WILL be legal as there was an accord that the sudden release of instant electric torque would place such demands on the tires that a device to modulate the electric torque would be allowed. It is widely recognised that this would be in effect some form TC. This is why Racecar Engineering (and Minardi) got it right and it would not surprise me if the McLaren produced ECU, (which was modified and updated this year in preparation for 2014) has it built in. Maybe. But irrespectively, building it into the KERS hybrid control makes a lot of sense.

Gaining 2.5 seconds a lap doesn't make any sense irrespective of the length of the track. We are talking 5 years of normal F1 development.

 

Add up all the signs: * KERS implementation (RBR use a super capacitor, why?)  * Lap times * sound  * alternator issues * KERS issues

If it looks like a duck, walks like  duck and quacks like a duck then the chances are it is a duck.



#5 gruntguru

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 23:24

The sound (referred to as "grinding" in the article) is typical of torque limiting by cylinder cut. That doesn't fit with the theory that the KERS system is being used for traction control.



#6 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 23:29

Remember no one drives flat out for more than a few laps, or they kill the tyres. Just look at the lap times. Though maybe the KERS does give some advantage. though I understood they only used it on the straights?
The racing though is so contrived as to be a farce. Get rid of KERS, flappy wings and the like. Drastically control the aero [some is needed purely for safety] and strictly control ECUs,, or better carbys!! Better. more consistent tyres and the show will improve. And real tactics may show again. eg drive 9/10ths on a consistent set of tyres or 10/10ths on softer faster tyres and do a stop. Ideally though no fuel stops for pure safety reasons, though if they do happen slower flow rates and other measures to stop the accidents that have happened in the past. The same for wheel changing too.
The cars should have sufficient fuel though for the whole race.

#7 indigoid

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 23:49

Lee, why get rid of KERS? Instead, why not just fully derestrict it and let the teams push the tech as far as they can? IMHO if F1 wants to promote itself as the premier 4-wheeled class, it shouldn't artificially limit tech development.

 

I definitely enjoy F1 more without refuelling. Really don't want to see that again.

 

... and carbs? Were you trolling?



#8 Kalmake

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:07

Correct bout th rules, however in 2014 it WILL be legal as there was an accord that the sudden release of instant electric torque would place such demands on the tires that a device to modulate the electric torque would be allowed.

Can you quote the source?

 

TC reg I quoted is still there in 2014.



#9 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:35

Lee, why get rid of KERS? Instead, why not just fully derestrict it and let the teams push the tech as far as they can? IMHO if F1 wants to promote itself as the premier 4-wheeled class, it shouldn't artificially limit tech development.
 
I definitely enjoy F1 more without refuelling. Really don't want to see that again.
 
... and carbs? Were you trolling?

What is right with KERS? It just makes an inefficient hybrid racing car. With more things to go wrong, and more ways to cheat. Which both appear to be happening.
This is motorsport, not shopping trolleys.

And what is wrong with carbs. Get rid of the computers and go back to basics. Again less ways to cheat. And the induction noise sounds great too!
Ban hairdryers while they are at it. Leave that for heros in hot hatches with their heads on backwards.
The whole deal is supposed to be about very fast cars, with the best drivers manhandling them that the public want to watch,, and the noise is part of that. Even with some mufflers to take the edge off the noise.

So next year we get 4 cyl turbo hybrids that have about the appeal of a field of Prius! BORING!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 11 October 2013 - 07:39.


#10 Jackmancer

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:15

Now WIRED has an article too:

http://www.wired.com...action-control/



#11 MatsNorway

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:54

Its part throttle blowing of the diffuser.

They did so last year too.


Edited by MatsNorway, 11 October 2013 - 12:59.


#12 desmo

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 14:16

Has using pushrod strain gauge or rocker position sensor outputs as a control input for TC ever been spitballed or even done as a road car strategy?  Does the idea even make any sense outside (or indeed within) the very artificial motorsport regulatory environment?



#13 Wuzak

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 00:41

So next year we get 4 cyl turbo hybrids that have about the appeal of a field of Prius! BORING!

 

Yet again you are two cylinders short of a full engine....

 

renault-energy-f1-2013-4-470x305.jpg



#14 Wuzak

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 00:48

And what is wrong with carbs. Get rid of the computers and go back to basics. Again less ways to cheat. And the induction noise sounds great too!

 

What's wrong with Carbs? Nothing, I suppose. Only thing i can think of is that you can have top end power, but less mid-range, or good mid-range power and low top end power. My understanding is that EFI allows the engine designers to be more aggressive in persuit of top end power while still maintining good driveability.

 

But when was the last time that F1 used carbs? They have been using injection, both mechanical and EFI for at least 40 years..



#15 Canuck

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 15:39

I think the nastiest, craziest cars raced were the exotic-fuelled "hair-dryer" powered creations that killed Senna. That era was pure spectacle.

#16 kikiturbo2

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:49

senna's car was NA



#17 Canuck

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:23

My mistake. I was thinking about a clip posted in this forum with Senna driving one of the aforementioned machines.

Or my memory is just wrong.

#18 kikiturbo2

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 21:27

having said that, I quite liked the hairdryer powered F1.. made for some spectacle..  Also, the V8 vs V10 vs V12 era was fun..



#19 gruntguru

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 00:31

What's wrong with Carbs? Nothing, I suppose. Only thing i can think of is that you can have top end power, but less mid-range, or good mid-range power and low top end power. My understanding is that EFI allows the engine designers to be more aggressive in persuit of top end power while still maintining good driveability.

 

But when was the last time that F1 used carbs? They have been using injection, both mechanical and EFI for at least 40 years..

Carbs belong on go-karts and weed wackers. The vast majority of racing categories are now fuel injected. F1 should return to being the ultimate development category it once was.



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#20 desmo

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:47

Only a matter of time I suppose before karts and garden tools go FI too.



#21 gruntguru

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:49

Hopefully long before Formula One goes carb.



#22 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 18:58


So next year we get 4 cyl turbo hybrids that have about the appeal of a field of Prius! BORING!

 

I stil regret that Toyote didn't dare to call its Le Mans challengers of the past two races the Toyota Prius LM or at least somehow include the Prius name within the car's name....

 

 

Henri



#23 Ali_G

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 16:31

Having read that article, did Vettel really admit RB had traction control.  Seems a bit unbelievable.



#24 Kalmake

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 21:33

Engine control i.e. torque maps and that. Also joked about traction control.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24381349