374 replies to this topic

[SpaMaster]

They are not poor, I just do not think they are as good as Lewis/Vettel.in one lap pace.

 

Lewis in his rookie year out qualified Alonso in the same car. I think Kimi has lost a step since 2005-2007, its just an age thing, all his over skills seem to be in order. 

 

I can maybe agree that if they were in the RB/Merc we would have more proof on where they stand,though.

Similarly Hamilton and Vettel may not be as good Raikkonen and Alonso in races.  Hamilton himself has admitted today that he has gone for a more quali-centered set-up compared to his teammate and that his teammate may have better pace tomorrow. We will see if Hamilton's decision is right tomorrow.

 

Does age catch up with only the pace of the first lap and not the subsequent long series of laps?

 

[sennafan24]

Similarly Hamilton and Vettel may not be as good Raikkonen and Alonso in races.  Hamilton himself has admitted today that he has gone for a more quali-centered set-up compared to his teammate and that his teammate may have better pace tomorrow. We will see if Hamilton's decision is right tomorrow.

 

Does age catch up with only the pace of the first lap and not the subsequent long series of laps?

 

Oh yeah, I may not disagree on that.

 

I think race pace is not as harmed, as that comes down to more strategic talents and tyre conservation these days, its not a serious of sprints like it used to be.

[Raven8]

Whole team inclusively Rocket-food team is ATM bowling, invited from Lewis Hamilton. Looks like they have fun (twitter).

He uses to do it every year, but last year he was snubbed from most of McLaren guys & had to cancel the event

[Kelateboy]

Whole team inclusively Rocket-food team is ATM bowling, invited from Lewis Hamilton. Looks like they have fun (twitter).

He uses to do it every year, but last year he was snubbed from most of McLaren guys & had to cancel the event

 

He was not snubbed by the McLaren guys last year.

 

They were just excited to go running with Michibata.   

[st99]

RBR will allow both of their drivers to duke it out with a single caveat - don't take each other out under any circumstances. Apart from that, do as you guys pleased....

 

That's what I think it's going to happen, but even the journos are asking Webber and Horner about this. I don't know why they even have to ask, what would be the benefice for RB? Another drama between their drivers just when they seem to be on good terms?

Edited by st99, 12 October 2013 - 14:07.

[SpaMaster]

Oh yeah, I may not disagree on that.

 

I think race pace is not as harmed, as that comes down to more strategic talents and tyre conservation these days, its not a serious of sprints like it used to be.

 

Sorry race pace is neither strategic talents and tyre conservation nor series of sprints. Race pace also involves real pace and lot of people may even say that race pace is THE real pace. Race pace really means how fast you can be over a race. A grand prix is not just one lap on Saturday afternoon, you have to be able to sustain it, be consistently fast, not wear out the machine/tyres too fast, be able to plot for the whole race, thinking on your feet. Race pace is a combination of lot of things, but an important of that is the sustainability of pure pace over long periods. People don't seem to realize that. Raw pace could be found as much in races and for a much longer period in race. Never agreed with qualy being the indicator of raw pace.

 

[tmzxaar]

Sorry race pace is neither strategic talents and tyre conservation nor series of sprints. Race pace also involves real pace and lot of people may even say that race pace is THE real pace. Race pace really means how fast you can be over a race. A grand prix is not just one lap on Saturday afternoon, you have to be able to sustain it, be consistently fast, not wear out the machine/tyres too fast, be able to plot for the whole race, thinking on your feet. Race pace is a combination of lot of things, but an important of that is the sustainability of pure pace over long periods. People don't seem to realize that. Raw pace could be found as much in races and for a much longer period in race. Never agreed with qualy being the indicator of raw pace.

 

Raw pace is about going to the absolute limit, you can't do that these days in the race.

[sennafan24]

Sorry race pace is neither strategic talents and tyre conservation nor series of sprints. Race pace also involves real pace and lot of people may even say that race pace is THE real pace. Race pace really means how fast you can be over a race. A grand prix is not just one lap on Saturday afternoon, you have to be able to sustain it, be consistently fast, not wear out the machine/tyres too fast, be able to plot for the whole race, thinking on your feet. Race pace is a combination of lot of things, but an important of that is the sustainability of pure pace over long periods. People don't seem to realize that. Raw pace could be found as much in races and for a much longer period in race. Never agreed with qualy being the indicator of raw pace.

 

We will have to agree to disagree then.

 

I can agree it takes a great deal of consistency in your pace, which takes a great deal of concentration. As you said it the bit bolded, its a lot about management and thinking with your head instead of just bombing round the track, its takes planning with your head, your car and your team to make sure you push at the right time and ease off at the right time so it does not effect your overall pace.

 

The limit of a drivers pace for me is displayed in qualifying, and what the drivers get out of their car when they are going the fastest they can go around that on lap. that is just the limit though, not the consistent.

 

Maybe who is the best sprinter, but not the best marathon runner.

Edited by sennafan24, 12 October 2013 - 14:13.

[Raven8]

Raw pace is about going to the absolute limit, you can't do that these days in the race.

Qualy is the only time you can see the raw pace of the drivers sometimes

[KateLM]

Where is the question of the team affecting the result coming from? You are just imagining way too much. Both Red Bull drivers have fought each other, but for the most part it has also been good for the team. Doing what is best for the team, I take, as bring home the car with whatever positions and results they find themselves in, and not take each other out. I don't understand why you are thinking Red Bull would do either of making sure Vettel wins championship in this race or Webber gets a farewell win whenever he gets a chance. I don't think the team is weighing any of these thoughts too much and prioritizing those to the detriment of another driver. The drivers' real end result won't change by the influence of Red Bull in-between, both drivers are too headstrong for all that.

 

I'm sorry, am I missing something? I don't think I've imagined past precedents of Red Bull trying to get involved with the finishing positions when the championship hasn't even been on the line. Silverstone 2011, Multi 21? The drivers won't take orders, no, which is why IF the team wants to swap them/stop them racing then there are other options open to them.

 

And if you believe certain people, they cared about Webber getting a win in 2011 enough to manipulate it (although for the record, I'm still reserving judgement on that one). And the WDC speaks for itself frankly.

 

What will happen tomorrow will happen, there's no way of knowing yet. 'The good of the team' is a deliberately vague answer though, which suggests to me Red Bull are keeping their options open.

[Massa]

We will have to agree to disagree then.

 

I can agree it takes a great deal of consistency in your pace, which takes a great deal of concentration. As you said it the bit bolded, its a lot about management and thinking with your head instead of just bombing round the track, its takes planning with your head, your car and your team to make sure you push at the right time and ease off at the right time so it does not effect your overall pace.

 

The limit of a drivers pace for me is displayed in qualifying, and what the drivers get out of their car when they are going the fastest they can go around that on lap. that is just the limit though, not the consistent.

 

Maybe who is the best sprinter, but not the best marathon runner.

 

 

But these day Quali is no longer a sprint like before. Now they setup the car for the race, they do fast lap in quali with the race tyres. They can't go as fast as they want because if they destroy the tyres they will be in trouble for the first stint.

[st99]

I just realised that Bianchi has gained one place after all the penalties... He qualified 22nd, had a 10 place grid penalty and starts 21st 

[SpaMaster]

Raw pace is not about going to the absolute limit for just one lap.  You have to be able to sustain it. Your going to the limit cannot compromise your going to the end of the race. The F1 cars are built for a race, no point saying I have pushed it to their limit for one lap because their overall limit is never going to be tested in one lap. Whatever you do, has to materialize for the race length.

 

In F1 terms, one lap is not a sprint, it has to be at least 6-7 laps. Pace of an F1 driver should always be viewed in the context of the race. Pace in spurts is not at all indicative of F1. Also, race length is not marathon. Marathon would be endurance racing or Safari rally. An F1 race is more like a 800m or 1 km running race. One lap is more like a few hard steps, not 100 m.

 

I'm sorry, am I missing something? I don't think I've imagined past precedents of Red Bull trying to get involved with the finishing positions when the championship hasn't even been on the line. Silverstone 2011, Multi 21? The drivers won't take orders, no, which is why IF the team wants to swap them/stop them racing then there are other options open to them.

 

And if you believe certain people, they cared about Webber getting a win in 2011 enough to manipulate it (although for the record, I'm still reserving judgement on that one). And the WDC speaks for itself frankly.

 

What will happen tomorrow will happen, there's no way of knowing yet. 'The good of the team' is a deliberately vague answer though, which suggests to me Red Bull are keeping their options open.

 

All those instances are pretty driver-neutral. It happened in the end where the team just want the drivers to bring the car home. Other than that they were not particularly favouring one driver over the other or plotting for a particular result from the beginning. The point is Red Bull probably does not have a particular priority of wrapping up Vettel's championship or Webber's farewell win tomorrow. They both would be allowed to fight at least for the first 75% of the race. Teams asking drivers to bring the car home without fighting in the end is pretty common and not necessarily favouring one driver over the other. That's what I meant. Best for the team is bring home the cars with maximum points possible.

Edited by SpaMaster, 12 October 2013 - 14:40.

[sennafan24]

But these day Quali is no longer a sprint like before. Now they setup the car for the race, they do fast lap in quali with the race tyres. They can't go as fast as they want because if they destroy the tyres they will be in trouble for the first stint.

I know they save tyres during the process, but they work methods so they can push for that final lap.

 

For example the top teams running the slower compound of tyres in Q1 and Q2 so they can go faster in Q3. They only usually do two fast laps in Q3 anyway, and in that time they push as fast as they can I believe.

 

I know that has come back to haunt some cars this year, but it does no take away they are pushing their hardest and showing the limit to their raw pace.

[RealRacing]

If I was Vettel, I would be very careful at the start tomorrow. Webber wants to leave on a high and he doesn't have anything to lose. A DNF would put unnecessary stress on the championship final.

[Andrew Hope]

[Shiroo]

 

[V3TT3L]

Charles PIC has to pay a pre-emptive penalty tomorrow in the first 5 laps 

 

Pic invaded the track AGAIN after the red light was on.

 

How can Marussia and Caterham drivers have sooo many speeding penalties 

[f1supreme]

Similarly Hamilton and Vettel may not be as good Raikkonen and Alonso in races.  Hamilton himself has admitted today that he has gone for a more quali-centered set-up compared to his teammate and that his teammate may have better pace tomorrow. We will see if Hamilton's decision is right tomorrow.

 

Does age catch up with only the pace of the first lap and not the subsequent long series of laps?

 

where does lewis say he went for quali set up,and that nico may have better race pace tomorrow?

[f1supreme]

race pace depends on how kind your car is to the tyres.

the lotus and ferrari are better on the tyres,which means alonso and kimi can do better in the races.

so a drivers race pace doesnt really reflect what they can really do.coz some drivers are able to push harder than others,because of how good their cars are on the tyres.

mercedes have to nurse the tyres more in races,which slows them down.

[billm99uk]

Nice to see a good crowd for qualifying after Korea. They're a dedicated bunch the Japanese fans, particularly considering the late start

 

Still wondering what those palette things Brundle mentioned are. Seen them inside the turn like that for a few years now...

Edited by billm99uk, 12 October 2013 - 16:28.

[OO7]

where does lewis say he went for quali set up,and that nico may have better race pace tomorrow?

http://asia.eurospor...059/story.shtml

[anti]

Practice 3:  :: Sector times :: Lap Chart
Qualification:  :: Sector times :: Lap Chart
 

[apoka]

The point is Red Bull probably does not have a particular priority of wrapping up Vettel's championship or Webber's farewell win tomorrow. 

 

I don't think they'll interfere with the racing tomorrow, but if for some reason they had to then choosing between those two should be pretty easy in my opinion. I know a lot of people dislike Vettel, but securing the WDC should have a higher priority than granting Webber an artificial race win. We saw how "happy" Webber was about his pole today - he will be as "happy" about a gifted race win. Apart from that, there are still 4 more races to gift him a win - not that I think a driver of his caliber with multiple race wins really needs that.

[garagetinkerer]

We will have to agree to disagree then.

 

I can agree it takes a great deal of consistency in your pace, which takes a great deal of concentration. As you said it the bit bolded, its a lot about management and thinking with your head instead of just bombing round the track, its takes planning with your head, your car and your team to make sure you push at the right time and ease off at the right time so it does not effect your overall pace.

 

The limit of a drivers pace for me is displayed in qualifying, and what the drivers get out of their car when they are going the fastest they can go around that on lap. that is just the limit though, not the consistent.

 

Maybe who is the best sprinter, but not the best marathon runner.

Wholly off-topic, but in continuation of our conversation from elsewhere... do you think in light of what you said above Prost was better than Senna... much better?

 

btw, did you enjoy the race?