2817 replies to this topic

[alframsey]

I thought threads were closed when there was nothing left to discuss? Why then is this thread allowed to go around in circles?

[P123]

Because with the absence of racing we need something to go round in circles.

[Fatgadget]

Because with the absence of racing we need something to go round in circles.

...I see what you have just done there!

[1Devil1]

• My idea is to close vs. threads like that or especially this after the race for one or two hours, I had the feeling without referring to a special group, because it came from both sides if you want to simplify it, that emotions took over after/or in the race, with a certain bias, as we all have, you're judgment of a race situation is quit different - I know it from my side - if you have more time and more information too think about it. "Clear heads" would be a good starting point for a better discussion, you could bounce off a lot of false interpretation (and the reactions to it) because off less information (Driver had a mechanical failure, or wrong setup, we see new replays etc) or simply overreactions. I know its not the solution to all problems, but a closed thread for a while would built a better ground for good discussion, a heat up thread right from the beginning will always end in tears. 
• Another point would be the prohibition of scores, it's a nice idea, but how often did we have the a discussion if the points go to Rosberg or Hamilton. In the end users did not discussed the performance of the two guys, more the measuring system, that does not exist, providing endless discussion. For example the famous Spa was a tie, though if you believed Spa was a tie, you have to believe another race was a tie too. It can't be good for a thread to discuss on a meta-level. I liked the overview of some user like KingShark, and the discussion about it, but it was more subtile after a bunch of races, but if you have a thread filled over with small comments, it' was tiresome, in my view
• @Senna24, I do believe it's different as Sophie mentioned around here, because there is no race, no situations to discuss, the season is over, next year in march this thread will be top again, with all his good and bad side, I spent much less time at Atlasf1 board because F1 is over

I am not a native as most users know, don't be too harsh

Edited by 1Devil1, 19 December 2013 - 23:05.

[Velocifer]

Your criticism of the moderation team is incredibly wide of the mark. In pointing at the moderators who look after this forum you are picking on people who do not - cannot - read and approve of all posts and treating them as vicariously liable. I certainly accept that there may be more we can do to try and influence the direction and quality of debate on a macro level but we think our rules go a long way to achieving that. However, as I said at the start this is a community of people discussing matters which some feel quite strongly about and while things may get out of hand on occasion the real onus is on you and others to abide by the rules and to do so consistently. It is hard for anyone to work out who might be the problem in any exchange when the quality of posting is universally poor or ill tempered.  We should not be in a position where we have to remove pages of posts, ever, and yet we do.  Each day we will edit and delete and try to deal with issues as best we can but the right answer – the most preferable one – is that everyone employs reasonable rules of engagement and obviate the need for any of us to do anything.  Police yourselves, not us.

Again, the question was why this thread was not working and always full of bickering. I called for rules to be followed AND fairly enforced as this is what I sincerely think is the solution. I just can't see how it's outside the realm of reason to hold how the thread is run as part of the problem, especially as the question invited direct comment on the mods actions.
 

It’s not about whether you think we’re a bit ****, but what you would like to see done differently.

Again misrepresented as I clearly map out what I think needs be done differently: This thread doesn't work because this and that rule are not followed and enforced. I really don't know how I could make it more clear.
 

You can make the forum better yourself by not complaining about the use of a 'race card' but instead challenge the specific post or poster who has played it if you can find it because as others have pointed out, I cannot.

Either you are assuming I have not challenged such a post via a report (which I have done to no avail), or you suggest I should challenge it in the thread directly? Which is it? Should I not report racist remarks but start what would be an OT and derailing argument about it?


About trolling it seems we just have different definitions of what it is. Wikipedia has it as:

A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

For me anyone could mask their trolling as being simply an opinion as you do with the example I gave but I find it to be obvious trolling. With legitimizing such an excuse, it seems trolling can never be dealt with.

Bottom line is that this thread is not working and always full of bickering and what could be done about it. I find it revealing that even a suggestion about a fix on that topic sparks of another round of bickering.. The rules are about promoting serious and reflective discourse and not trench warfare. I say that's a great idea and let's follow it. Snuff out the provocations that will only lead to embattled positions and animosity. Don't leave it old-style F1 rules to 'sort it out themselves', but be the equivalent of modern active stewards: Leave room, no crowding, clean racing, no contact etc etc or it's a straight penalty.

[Velocifer]

What an incredibly disingenuous comment.

Ah the classic OT attack. No argumentation, nothing on topic, just a simple bash. Disingenuous at its core..
 

This is the Hamilton vs rosberg thread, let's discuss racing not your personal agenda. I don't agree with the content of this post and percieve it as inaccurate and offensive.

The only post which is inaccurate and offensive here is yours because if you had actually bothered to read the last posts, you would know an invitation was made by the mods to discuss the running of the thread, and what will logically follow from that are posts not necessarily discussing Hamilton vs Rosberg. So you were inaccurate when you dissed my post as OT and it was offensive to do so without acquiring the bare minimum of readily available information especially as the relevant part was even quoted directly in my post. It is also offensive and inaccurate to state as a fact I was discussing my personal agenda when my post was entirely on topic with clear general suggestions about the non-working thread.

Edited by Velocifer, 19 December 2013 - 23:44.

[sennafan24]

 

 

• @Senna24, I do believe it's different as Sophie mentioned around here, because there is no race, no situations to discuss, the season is over, next year in march this thread will be top again, with all his good and bad side, I spent much less time at Atlasf1 board because F1 is over

 

Sorry man, what is this in relation to, what is different?

 

And yeah, for the record this place is a lot more reasonable than Atlasf1, and I have only just figured what that is a reference to, bit slow today 

[sennafan24]

Bottom line is that this thread is not working and always full of bickering and what could be done about it. I find it revealing that even a suggestion about a fix on that topic sparks of another round of bickering.. The rules are about promoting serious and reflective discourse and not trench warfare. I say that's a great idea and let's follow it. Snuff out the provocations that will only lead to embattled positions and animosity. Don't leave it old-style F1 rules to 'sort it out themselves', but be the equivalent of modern active stewards: Leave room, no crowding, clean racing, no contact etc etc or it's a straight penalty.

I speak for myself here and no one else, but when you say "trench warfare" I think you are being a bit too absolute.

 

I really do not care about who posts what in here in relation to who's side are they on and who they support, I just read what they post and chime in whether I agree or not. I am honest enough to say who I am a fan of (Lewis), but if he performs crap, I will happily say it.

 

With all due respect, I think you take this all a tad too seriously, remember this place is outlet to discuss a hobby of ours, not some deep routed society. It helps me take the edge of from my Uni work, I tell you 

Edited by sennafan24, 20 December 2013 - 00:34.

[P123]

Velocifer, you haven't offered anything except a inaccurate depiction of the tone of the topic from the start.  Inventing a scenario to vent against suggests the problem is with yourself and your own bias.  Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing.  You have a long history of moaning about Hamilton fans on here, although I don't recall you having much, if any, participation in this topic before you arrived with your inaccurate claims.

 

I'm sure we could all help to make the teammate threads better (my suggestion would be getting rid of scorecard talk which regularly has led to baiting of others).  The problem is wildly pro and anti extreme views tend to swamp any reasonable discussion of what actually happens on track, and you then get the same small group of posters with their tit for tat bickering which swamps the thread.

[stanga]

Ah the classic OT attack. No argumentation, nothing on topic, just a simple bash. Disingenuous at its core.. 
 

 

Sorry bud, I call it as I see it. Continue 'argumentationing' all you like, it seems pretty clear you were making some pretty disproportionate accusations; trying to make out the race card sees regular action is frankly desperate in the extreme. I can't remember the last time it was mentioned.

 

By the way, brevity can be your friend too.

[Velocifer]

The last posts illustrate the problem with this thread perfectly. I respond on topic and logically to a direct question by a mod, then suddenly everybody screams murder and it's now suddenly all about me. Cheap pot shots. I have personal issues, what I am feeling, my history, even my length of posts (while others made longer in the meanwhile..), my bias etc etc. Nothing on topic at all, just to get at me because I'm seen to be 'on the other side' in order to shoot me down. Either you can't see this or you simply don't care. This kind of thing is prevalent in this thread and it's almost as some still think this is a driver thread where the fans should hang out and other shoo. This kind of attitude was the reason why the driver threads were shut down, and is clearly the reason why this thread is so problematic that it has to be constantly locked, yet some people just don't get it and will probably never which is why I ask for the more heavier hand by the mods.

[SophieB]

Folks,

I think this is starting to get bogged down, and some of the fault for that is mine. I plainly could have put my request about improving certain aspects of this thread a *lot* more clearly, given the number of people who were puzzled or misunderstood me. None the less, I am truly grateful to *everyone* who gave the matter some thought, and shared their views.

Broadly, there was more consensus than I was expecting, and that was heartening. You like the discussions, but really dislike the squabbling. Me too. You want fair and honest moderating of the thread. That's good - I want those things too! As I said to Velocifer, the moderation team always strive to be as fair and honest as is possible. I echo Buttoneer's points, therefore that anyone who thinks otherwise, is best reporting specific incidents.

I also support his points about not making broad brush remarks about groups of fans. I understand, to a degree. On the face of it, the temptation is to think it's less aggressive than quoting and responding directly to one person. However, as we are finding here, when large groups are singled out, all that happens is more people get offended than is meant or people don't know or remember the incidents you"re referring to. Challenge a person directly - it keeps things more in proportion.

It's for this reason I would like to draw a line here about people challenging Velocifer to justify his views about there being issues with large groups of people/racism here. I take responsibility for being unclear in my request for information and though I do not agree with his views, I accept they were sincerely expressed. He cannot reasonably respond now short of naming all those he thinks are a problem and that won't really get us anywhere. Moving forward, he has the same guidance from Buttoneer (and me) as anyone - politely challenge individual posts or report, especially where posts seem far over the line. As to his points about fairness, I am better able to respond to him in private.

As for racism on the boards. I will reiterate we do not tolerate it, and this would include any anti-Germanic remarks. The rules permit discussing racial politics where it is relevant, this would not extend to people dishonestly claiming racism as a form of discrediting the integrity of another poster unfairly. I do not believe this is an active issue and the moderation team would act firmly to keep it so.

So, back to discussing the Hamilton Rosberg thread that has just gone, if you still have stuff to say about it. To those like alframsay who are wondering why it's still open, well, I figure there might be a few end of year reviews with fresh interviews and the thread's not eating anything.

And if you still have points to make about the thread, you can always make them by PM.

[maverick69]

What are you talking about. There was no car "sans EBD". Red Bull had a solution, the ramp, that was still in development and was not working right. The car was hard to set up. Sure, due to that, they struggled in a couple of qualifying sessions but Seb still absolutely performed in the race for maximum damage limitation. He WON the 4th race in Bahrain.

He was never "sans EBD" and he was never outperformed by Webber.

What was I talking about? This perfectly explains what I was talking about:

http://scarbsf1.com/...depod-analysis/

And yes he WON the 4th race in Bahrain because that's when Newey got the ramp working...... just like I said.

[Zoetrope]

What was I talking about? This perfectly explains what I was talking about:

http://scarbsf1.com/...depod-analysis/

And yes he WON the 4th race in Bahrain because that's when Newey got the ramp working...... just like I said.

2012 season? Vettel? In Nico vs. Lewis thread? While mods are trying to establish rules for posting in 2014? lol

[maverick69]

2012 season? Vettel? In Nico vs. Lewis thread? While mods are trying to establish rules for posting in 2014? lol

Go back to the context of the original post.

Cheers

[undersquare]

2013 Mercedes-Benz season without misfortunes

 

Australia - Rosberg loses 8 points due electrical failure.

Malaysia - Team orders, but Rosberg had opportunities to pass before that. No points given.

China - Rosberg loses 10 points due suspension issues.

Silverstone - Hamilton loses 13 points due puncture. Rosberg gains 7.

Hungary - Rosberg loses 2 points due engine failure.

Monza - Hamilton loses 4 points due slow puncture.

Korea - Rosberg loses 9 points due front wing failure. Hamilton gains 2.

Japan - Collision with Vettel over 50% Hamilton's fault. No points given.

Japan - Rosberg loses 8 points due pitstop mistake from Mercedes.

Brazil - Collision with Bottas over 50% Hamilton's fault. No points given.

 

Adjusted score including misfortunes;

 

Lewis Hamilton - 202 points

Nico Rosberg - 201 points

Oh this thread is still open!  

 

Suzuka being Hamilton's fault is ridiculous for a start, since Webber obviously pushed Lewis into Vettel who had nowhere to go with Grosjean on his other side.  

[Kingshark]

Fair enough. I will give Lewis 12 points for Suzuka and subtract 2 points from Nico, but at the same time, I will give Nico 3 points for Malaysia and subtract 3 points from Lewis, because as many critics of my analysis said, Nico would have most likely gotten passed Lewis eventually. Also, Rosberg had debris stuck in his front wing in Singapore which, according to Mercedes, cost him 1.7 seconds lap and hence probably cost him 6 points (4th instead of 2nd).

 

That puts Rosberg at 208 points, and Hamilton at 211 points.

 

It is certainly not unreasonable for people to claim that Nico was on par with Lewis in 2013, but I don't see why you respond to my post so late.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 March 2014 - 17:29.

[SophieB]

Nooooooooo.