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Hamilton Vs Rosberg - 2013 Part 3


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#101 sennafan24

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 16:50

He saw the sparks, as he said in the interview  "Suddenly I saw the sparks flying..."

I see it more as the teams mistake  than Rosbergs , who of course doesn't  want to move from the racing line for his team mate.

Fair enough, I went back to bed before the post race interviews   ;)



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#102 apoka

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:01

The SC negated Nico's time loss in the pits.

 

When the incident happened, they were P3/P4. After pitting Lewis was P6 moving up to P4 when SC was deployed. Rosberg pitted one lap earlier, was P12 and moved up to P10 and later P8 in the SC phase. While the time loss was somehow neglected, track position matters and he lost positions. For instance, he would have come out ahead of Hulkenberg.



#103 apoka

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:03

He saw the sparks, as he said in the interview  "Suddenly I saw the sparks flying..."

I see it more as the teams mistake  than Rosbergs , who of course doesn't  want to move from the racing line for his team mate.

 

But as I said Rosberg with the broken wing was only 2 seconds slower than what Hamilton could do (as ridiculous as that sounds, that is how much deg Hamilton already had at that point) and it all happened in a minute.



#104 redreni

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:07

Hamilton went through his tyres too fast because he burned them in his outlap trying to get the undercut on Grosjean, and then he attacked Grosjean when that failed. But the reason he didn't get the undercut is that the team left it a lap too late for that first change making Lewis too slow on his inlap on the worn options.

After pitting on lap 10, Rosberg came out behind Pic and lost a hatful of time. If they pitted Hamilton on lap 8 as you suggest, the same would have happened. And even if traffic wasn‘t an issue, if Hamilton pitted a lap earlier, Grosjean would have pitted a lap earlier too, and he too would have had one-lap fresher options available for his inlap. You can‘t solve problems of excessive wear by just pitting earlier and earlier.

The team spent the afternoon desperately trying to keep Hamilton from having to make three stops, which would have been a disaster for him. It‘s all very well blaming the excessive tyre wear on fighting with Grosjean, but this is where the thinking drivers worry more about their position on the last lap than they do about their position on whatever lap they happen to be on at the time. If you can‘t get by (and Hamilton never looked like passing Grosjean) then art of your job as a Grand Prix driver is to make sure you look after your tyres.

Edited by redreni, 06 October 2013 - 17:12.


#105 redreni

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:09

When the incident happened, they were P3/P4. After pitting Lewis was P6 moving up to P4 when SC was deployed. Rosberg pitted one lap earlier, was P12 and moved up to P10 and later P8 in the SC phase. While the time loss was somehow neglected, track position matters and he lost positions. For instance, he would have come out ahead of Hulkenberg.


And Hamilton.

#106 gricey1981

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:22

Hamilton does seem to have the upper hand now though. Last few races hav not gone his way yet he is still almost 40 points ahead. If this was 2011 and a certain other driver was in front ....

 

Hamilton has had the measure of Nico this season. Not bad for a new car against a team mate who is in his 4th season with the same team.



#107 Zoetrope

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:47

To me Hamilton's tyre (specifically front right) issue was very strange. It's easy to assume he was too hard on the tyre, but it just dropped of the cliff suddenly (like Kimi in China 2012, who some consider tyre whisperer). They surely had done simulation on Friday and there was no sign of this happening. No one else suffered this issue today as well. Perhaps Lewis is harder on tyres than other drivers, including Rosberg, but how can this explain 1,5-2s fall in performance per lap? I don't think he should be the one to blame, the tyre just died, behaved very strangely.

Lewis proved he can take care of tyres, and when he does worse than Nico in that department, he can admit it (like fuel management in Malaysia).

Making such assumption, I would give the weekend to Lewis. And you have to give him the credit for being the only driver that actually gave Hulkenberg a hard time, others were just trailing him without causing any threat. 



#108 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 17:55

What was strange with Hamilton's issue was that his window from post-graining to cliff was almost instant

#109 undersquare

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 18:40

After pitting on lap 10, Rosberg came out behind Pic and lost a hatful of time. If they pitted Hamilton on lap 8 as you suggest, the same would have happened. And even if traffic wasn‘t an issue, if Hamilton pitted a lap earlier, Grosjean would have pitted a lap earlier too, and he too would have had one-lap fresher options available for his inlap. You can‘t solve problems of excessive wear by just pitting earlier and earlier.

The team spent the afternoon desperately trying to keep Hamilton from having to make three stops, which would have been a disaster for him. It‘s all very well blaming the excessive tyre wear on fighting with Grosjean, but this is where the thinking drivers worry more about their position on the last lap than they do about their position on whatever lap they happen to be on at the time. If you can‘t get by (and Hamilton never looked like passing Grosjean) then art of your job as a Grand Prix driver is to make sure you look after your tyres.

Grosjean's tyres weren't going off so it's not correct to suggest their relative times would have stayed the same.  Hamilton times were rising, therefore to get the undercut they had to pit him as soon as that started to happen.  The alternative is not to chase the undercut, because as we all know hammering tyres at the start of a stint disproportionately takes life out of them.

 

Worst case is to stay out too long, dropping back, then thrash the new tyres on the outlap but miss the undercut, so you don't have clean air to look after them for the rest of the stint; but that's exactly what they did.

 

As it was Lewis would have been faster than Romain, so it was worth trying to get past.  



#110 redreni

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 18:45

To me Hamilton's tyre (specifically front right) issue was very strange. It's easy to assume he was too hard on the tyre, but it just dropped of the cliff suddenly (like Kimi in China 2012, who some consider tyre whisperer). They surely had done simulation on Friday and there was no sign of this happening. No one else suffered this issue today as well. Perhaps Lewis is harder on tyres than other drivers, including Rosberg, but how can this explain 1,5-2s fall in performance per lap? I don't think he should be the one to blame, the tyre just died, behaved very strangely.
Lewis proved he can take care of tyres, and when he does worse than Nico in that department, he can admit it (like fuel management in Malaysia).
Making such assumption, I would give the weekend to Lewis. And you have to give him the credit for being the only driver that actually gave Hulkenberg a hard time, others were just trailing him without causing any threat.

Rocky spent the race talking to Vettel about his front right. There were huge chunks flying off it. Hulk struggled in his second stint too and pitted early. Perez wore his his front right to the point where a single lock-up caused a delamination. Other people had issues too, but some drivers were better than others at managing this. Rosberg managed his deg better than Hamilton which is why he was going to finish well ahead.

Rosberg finished 1.6s behind Hamilton despite a 22.6s pitstop. It‘s clear who did the better job in the race.

Edited by redreni, 06 October 2013 - 18:49.


#111 P123

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:06

Rocky spent the race talking to Vettel about his front right. There were huge chunks flying off it. Hulk struggled in his second stint too and pitted early. Perez wore his his front right to the point where a single lock-up caused a delamination. Other people had issues too, but some drivers were better than others. Rosberg managed his deg better than Hamilton which is why he was going to finish well ahead.

Rosberg finished 1.6s behind Hamilton despite a 22.6s pitstop. It‘s clear who did the better job in the race.

 

You are forgetting the SC in your analysis.  Nico didn't magically regain his 22s.  In fact Hamilton pulled out 12s on him in the early stages of the race.  With hindsight the team should obviously have pitted Hamilton and changed strategy, especially given his sizeable advantage over those behind.  Unfortunately they mistakenly interpreted his initial loss of pace as just graining. 

 

An extra stop for Hamilton would have put him 10-12s behind his teammate, which he would have had to make up.  Not beyond question given the relative early race pace, so absolutely no guarantee that Nico would finish well ahead if picking and choosing different race scenarios.  For example, even without the wing issue for Nico or a theoretical additional stop for Hamilton, the SC would have negated the gap between them, and it would also have aided Hamilton in remaining ahead of Kimi, not losing time behind a broken winged teammate or by having to do an extra lap at the pace of the Marussia as the team serviced Rosberg.

 

Throw out the wing issue and SC and LH would have been able to pit and remain ahead of Kimi.  Nico, who was running longer, would have had the problem of having to pass those two who would have been out of fresh tyres, setting quicker times.  The tyre issue suffered by Hamilton was not seen earlier in the weekend, and not seen on his final stint.  It is by no means 100% certain that in a 'normal race' that Nico was going to finish well ahead.



#112 redreni

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:22

Grosjean's tyres weren't going off so it's not correct to suggest their relative times would have stayed the same.  Hamilton times were rising, therefore to get the undercut they had to pit him as soon as that started to happen.  The alternative is not to chase the undercut, because as we all know hammering tyres at the start of a stint disproportionately takes life out of them.
 
Worst case is to stay out too long, dropping back, then thrash the new tyres on the outlap but miss the undercut, so you don't have clean air to look after them for the rest of the stint; but that's exactly what they did.
 
As it was Lewis would have been faster than Romain, so it was worth trying to get past.


Just watched the BBC highlights. I agree it would have been possible to pit a lap earlier without encountering traffic. But your claim about the laptimes is just not true. On lap 7 HAM was quicker than GRO, so I don‘t know on what basis you would expect the Mercedes pit wall to bring HAM in when he was still 1.3s behind and closing in? A 1.3s gap is quite a lot if you‘re hoping to make the undercut against a car who‘s tyres are still in decent shape.

On lap 8 Hamilton was 3 tenths slower than on his previous lap while Grosjean was 3 tenths faster. This prompted Mercedes to bring Hamilton in. This was premature if anything, in my opinion, because there was nothing to be gained by coming in - he was obviously not going to jump GRO and he had a healthy cushion ahead of ROS. By staying out another couple of laps they would have given him fewer laps to do in the next stint.

#113 redreni

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:33

You are forgetting the SC in your analysis. Nico didn't magically regain his 22s. In fact Hamilton pulled out 12s on him in the early stages of the race. With hindsight the team should obviously have pitted Hamilton and changed strategy, especially given his sizeable advantage over those behind. Unfortunately they mistakenly interpreted his initial loss of pace as just graining.

An extra stop for Hamilton would have put him 10-12s behind his teammate, which he would have had to make up. Not beyond question given the relative early race pace, so absolutely no guarantee that Nico would finish well ahead if picking and choosing different race scenarios. For example, even without the wing issue for Nico or a theoretical additional stop for Hamilton, the SC would have negated the gap between them, and it would also have aided Hamilton in remaining ahead of Kimi, not losing time behind a broken winged teammate or by having to do an extra lap at the pace of the Marussia as the team serviced Rosberg.

Throw out the wing issue and SC and LH would have been able to pit and remain ahead of Kimi. Nico, who was running longer, would have had the problem of having to pass those two who would have been out of fresh tyres, setting quicker times. The tyre issue suffered by Hamilton was not seen earlier in the weekend, and not seen on his final stint. It is by no means 100% certain that in a 'normal race' that Nico was going to finish well ahead.

I assure you I remember the SC well. Without the long pitstop Rosberg would have been ahead of Hamilton and the Hulk in the SC queue.

What I‘m saying is, all other things being equal, taking it from the time of the wing failure and imagining no wing failure, Rosberg finishes ahead of Hamilton. Of course, if you look at the way the race unfolded and re-organise Hamilton‘s race strategy with the benefit hindsight, while leaving the strategy of every other driver in the race the same, then yes, Hamilton would have beaten a lot of people, but it doesn‘t mean anything. Every driver sits in the motorhome after the race and works out where they could have been if they‘d done x, y or z. We‘re discussing the relative performance of Hamilton and Rosberg. Rosberg‘s deg was appropriate for his planned strategy and Hamilton‘s was excessive, so Hamilton thereby forced the pitwall into changing strategy on the fly while Rosberg didn‘t, which is why when you strip out mechanical failures, Rosberg looked set to prevail by running the optimum strategy.

Edited by redreni, 06 October 2013 - 19:34.


#114 MP422

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:47

Alotta excuses in this scorecard now, Interesting race. 



#115 redreni

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:56

No  drivers with a dammaged car must leave the racing line if there is traffic. It'wasn't me who said on Sky it was very dangerous what Rosberg was doing, and that he held up Hamilton. Maybe the team should have told Rosberg to move over. Especially when your team mate is the car wich is held up. Rosberg was due to pit, while Hamilton was forced to stay out, neither of them would have lost time when NR had Hamilton let past.


Okay, damaged cars have to leave the racing line? Presumably you can point me to (a) the relevant regulation and (b) the thread from this time last year when you criticised Hamilton for racing to 10th in Korea with a broken rear anti-roll bar?

#116 Raven8

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:34

Okay, damaged cars have to leave the racing line? Presumably you can point me to (a) the relevant regulation and (b) the thread from this time last year when you criticised Hamilton for racing to 10th in Korea with a broken rear anti-roll bar?

Silly demands :drunk:

1.I wasn't here last year

2. Nobody knew Hamiltons anti roll bar was broken until after the race when the mechanics looked into the car

3. It was obvious damage on Rosbergs car wich was dangerous and was realised immediately



#117 Raven8

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:36

I assure you I remember the SC well. Without the long pitstop Rosberg would have been ahead of Hamilton and the Hulk in the SC queue.

What I‘m saying is, all other things being equal, taking it from the time of the wing failure and imagining no wing failure, Rosberg finishes ahead of Hamilton. Of course, if you look at the way the race unfolded and re-organise Hamilton‘s race strategy with the benefit hindsight, while leaving the strategy of every other driver in the race the same, then yes, Hamilton would have beaten a lot of people, but it doesn‘t mean anything. Every driver sits in the motorhome after the race and works out where they could have been if they‘d done x, y or z. We‘re discussing the relative performance of Hamilton and Rosberg. Rosberg‘s deg was appropriate for his planned strategy and Hamilton‘s was excessive, so Hamilton thereby forced the pitwall into changing strategy on the fly while Rosberg didn‘t, which is why when you strip out mechanical failures, Rosberg looked set to prevail by running the optimum strategy.

Maybe Rosbergs tyres would have hit the cliff 2 laps later, if you make the "what if" game.



#118 undersquare

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:38

Just watched the BBC highlights. I agree it would have been possible to pit a lap earlier without encountering traffic. But your claim about the laptimes is just not true. On lap 7 HAM was quicker than GRO, so I don‘t know on what basis you would expect the Mercedes pit wall to bring HAM in when he was still 1.3s behind and closing in? A 1.3s gap is quite a lot if you‘re hoping to make the undercut against a car who‘s tyres are still in decent shape.

On lap 8 Hamilton was 3 tenths slower than on his previous lap while Grosjean was 3 tenths faster. This prompted Mercedes to bring Hamilton in. This was premature if anything, in my opinion, because there was nothing to be gained by coming in - he was obviously not going to jump GRO and he had a healthy cushion ahead of ROS. By staying out another couple of laps they would have given him fewer laps to do in the next stint.

Lewis was right behind Romain as Romain came out of the pits.  0.5 or so difference would have put Grosjean behind - then if Lewis could have held him off into T3/T4 it could all have gone beautifully.

 

The team should have brought him in on the sector times, not laptimes.  One lap sooner.

 

Or once they've missed the opportunity as you say, I agree, they needed to give up the undercut gambit and not race Grosjean that way with the tyre cost.  Either way it was a strategy error.

 

Lewis made an error on Lap 1 as I said, letting RG up the inside, after that it really was the team.



#119 redreni

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 22:17

Silly demands :drunk:
1.I wasn't here last year
2. Nobody knew Hamiltons anti roll bar was broken until after the race when the mechanics looked into the car
3. It was obvious damage on Rosbergs car wich was dangerous and was realised immediately


Hamilton thought his car was undamaged, then, did he, when he had a broken anti-roll bar?

It has always been accepted that, if you have damage, if you are outrageously slow, so that blocking other cars would be futile and dangerous, then you should keep off the racing line and not make a nuisance of yourself. But Rosberg‘s pace with the broken wing was not outrageously slow. He was no slower than the backmarkers. Nobody ever moves over and coasts in under those circumstances. They never have and they never will.

If you think there should have been a team order, fair enough, but you have to recall that from the pitwall‘s point of view, although Hamilton was slow and his tyres were in poor shape, they were still short of the pit window, so although leaving Hamilton out another lap had a big downside inasmuch as he was slow, it also had an upside of getting him nearer the window thereby improving his chances of making it to the end. Moreover, I‘m sure you wouldn‘t have been very happy if Rosberg had let Hamilton through in S2, then tucked into his slipstream on one of the long straights and driven over his own front wing thereby taking them both out. Keeping Rosberg away from turbulence was the wisest thing, since any disturbance to the airflow over his wing could have made it break free and caused an accident. Those are probably two of the reasons why there was no team order.

Suggesting that Rosberg broke the rules by continuing to try his best while racing a damaged car is just a bit silly in my opinion.

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#120 sennafan24

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 22:23

Hamilton thought his car was undamaged, then, did he, when he had a broken anti-roll bar?

 

I am sad enough to remember this.

 

He radioed in dumbfounded to what the problem was, and said the car was sounding and handling weird. He then heard a bang, and the car started performing again, I believe the roll bar then broke later on, and away went his pace.

 

Its just made him lose serious ground to the top runners, he could still run with the mid field cars okay. He was no danger.



#121 bub

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 23:28

Hamilton wins qualifying and looked better for most of the weekend but in the race Rosberg looked after his tyres much better (terrible luck with the FW, I feel for him) so as much as it pains some people I will call the race a draw with Hamilton winning the weekend overall.



#122 undersquare

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 23:31

I am sad enough to remember this.

 

He radioed in dumbfounded to what the problem was, and said the car was sounding and handling weird. He then heard a bang, and the car started performing again, I believe the roll bar then broke later on, and away went his pace.

 

Its just made him lose serious ground to the top runners, he could still run with the mid field cars okay. He was no danger.

Yeah it's not a valid comparison, last year the team specifically told Lewis his 'balance problem ' was safe.  This year Nico 's wing obviously wasn't, and Brundle even mentioned the team letting Lewis past and his 1:50 lap behind. 



#123 Juggles

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:07

Am I right in thinking that had Hamilton switched to a three stopper as soon as his right front fell off the cliff (lap 23 was it?) he would have come out after his second stop in fourth place? So behind Rosberg but ahead of the Hulkenberg train? He would have been less than ten seconds behind Rosberg and significantly quicker for the rest of the race, so surely looking good for a podium?

 

Obviously this doesn't factor in the safety cars, I'm just thinking in terms of what Mercedes should have done at the time with the information at their disposal.

 

Edit - I was very disappointed to see Hamilton give Grosjean space down the inside on lap one. Pushing too hard on the tyres at the start of his second stint all stemmed from that moment. Also, we can't say getting past Hulkenberg was impossible today given Hamilton got a great run on him down the main straight with DRS and managed to get alongside; if you manage to get alongside it means you had the chance to pass. So there were a couple of things in this race which made me think that if Hamilton had been at his best could have seen him get a better result.

 

Also, I'm really glad Hamilton put pressure on Grosjean at the start of the second stint even though it led to him cooking his tyres. Undoubtedly Rosberg would have hung back straight away and nursed the tyres to third place, but I love the fact that Hamilton's overwhelming instinct is to attack even when he knows it will hurt him. It's stupid in a way, but it's what I tune in for.


Edited by Juggles, 07 October 2013 - 01:14.


#124 Tropicana

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:28

Well Nico is still within less than 2 race wins of Lewis. That should give the Nico "fans" reason to cling to hope. If Nico has a few very good races in a row and Lewis has his customary string of bad luck races (people crashing into him, car failures and just plain bad luck e.t.c) he can grab the lead for the season. The lead is not safe until mathematically Nico is beaten. Lewis was wiping the floor with Button last year and yet they finished within a few points of each other.



#125 Raven8

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:11

Am I right in thinking that had Hamilton switched to a three stopper as soon as his right front fell off the cliff (lap 23 was it?) he would have come out after his second stop in fourth place? So behind Rosberg but ahead of the Hulkenberg train? He would have been less than ten seconds behind Rosberg and significantly quicker for the rest of the race, so surely looking good for a podium?

 

Obviously this doesn't factor in the safety cars, I'm just thinking in terms of what Mercedes should have done at the time with the information at their disposal.

 

Edit - I was very disappointed to see Hamilton give Grosjean space down the inside on lap one. Pushing too hard on the tyres at the start of his second stint all stemmed from that moment. Also, we can't say getting past Hulkenberg was impossible today given Hamilton got a great run on him down the main straight with DRS and managed to get alongside; if you manage to get alongside it means you had the chance to pass. So there were a couple of things in this race which made me think that if Hamilton had been at his best could have seen him get a better result.

 

Also, I'm really glad Hamilton put pressure on Grosjean at the start of the second stint even though it led to him cooking his tyres. Undoubtedly Rosberg would have hung back straight away and nursed the tyres to third place, but I love the fact that Hamilton's overwhelming instinct is to attack even when he knows it will hurt him. It's stupid in a way, but it's what I tune in for.

Hulkenberg was impossible as he was much faster out of the corners( much better traction)  and had higher top speed. This is the DRS problem nowadays ,

even if Lewis would have overtaken him again Hulk could use DRS and get past him again. Lewis hit the speed limiter way earlier than Hülkenberg on every straight

BTW I don't know if it was only Lewis instinct to chase Grosjean, but after the SC Lewis asked over the radio if he should save tyres or attack Hülkenberg, They told him to go for it


Edited by Raven8, 07 October 2013 - 07:14.


#126 skyform

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:22

Rocky spent the race talking to Vettel about his front right. There were huge chunks flying off it. Hulk struggled in his second stint too and pitted early. Perez wore his his front right to the point where a single lock-up caused a delamination. Other people had issues too, but some drivers were better than others at managing this. Rosberg managed his deg better than Hamilton which is why he was going to finish well ahead.

Rosberg finished 1.6s behind Hamilton despite a 22.6s pitstop. It‘s clear who did the better job in the race.

 

Wow really, did you even watch the race, there was a SC two times so they basicly start again from zero gap and Lewis was stucked behind Hulkenberg after the SC. It's really funny how you can ignore things like this and acting like Nico gained this 22sec by him self!



#127 baddog

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:53

You do know the safety cars were the only thing that saved Lewis from being beaten by Nico right? They worked in his favour completely.



#128 gricey1981

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:56

You do know the safety cars were the only thing that saved Lewis from being beaten by Nico right? They worked in his favour completely.

 

Pray do tell how you came to this conclusion



#129 Raven8

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:56

You do know the safety cars were the only thing that saved Lewis from being beaten by Nico right? They worked in his favour completely.

NO Rosberg was behind Lewis with or without SC . He was pos 13 or sth after his stop for a new wing, while Lewis was 5th



#130 baddog

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:20

I intended to say the SCs and the front wing incident, apologies.. and also only read the post I responded to not the one before. Lewis tyre management was only slightly worse than my post ;)



#131 Raven8

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:24

I intended to say the SCs and the front wing incident, apologies.. and also only read the post I responded to not the one before. Lewis tyre management was only slightly worse than my post ;)

We don't even know if it was the tyre management or some bad ( prepared) set of tyres. Lewis said he got a f++ed set of tyres ( was reported at  Pit-stop whisper)



#132 baddog

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:32

Sorry I do not believe that you are correct at all. Everyone had excessive right front wear, to the point of a delamination in one case. Lewis, who has always been hard on front tyres, had excessive right front wear quicker than others, including a couple of lockups that we saw. Occam's Razor here I think.



#133 GlenP

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:39

It seemed pretty obvious to me that Lewis went through his tyres (esp front right) whilst Nico played a longer game. Lewis could not pit because a switch to 3 stop would have been slower, and then everyone would be moaning about the team screwing his strategy. Very unlucky for Rosberg to get the broken wing just as his patience was paying-off, but hey - these things happen.

 

I can't draw any conclusion from that race in driver vs driver sense really. Hamilton was better on Saturday is about all I can say, and in a race where the option tyre is so marginal that means more or less nothing.



#134 dhill39

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:01

Stop making things so complicated,whoever finish in front wins,it's that simple,Lewis had the upper hand all weekend and he finish in front.

#135 GlenP

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:09

Whatever - if you think that is that is same value of win as the Hungary one for example (which is what you are saying) then don't expect much credit from me.



#136 Silvercheese

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:12

Lewis on Saturday, Rosberg on Sunday.



#137 superdelphinus

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:36

I am sad enough to remember this.

He radioed in dumbfounded to what the problem was, and said the car was sounding and handling weird. He then heard a bang, and the car started performing again, I believe the roll bar then broke later on, and away went his pace.

Its just made him lose serious ground to the top runners, he could still run with the mid field cars okay. He was no danger.


Nah, that was Suzuka

#138 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:06

I am sad enough to remember this.

 

He radioed in dumbfounded to what the problem was, and said the car was sounding and handling weird. He then heard a bang, and the car started performing again, I believe the roll bar then broke later on, and away went his pace.

 

Its just made him lose serious ground to the top runners, he could still run with the mid field cars okay. He was no danger.

 

Exactly, and I've no objection to him racing a damaged car. Even if there had been any danger it would have been a matter for the race officails to show the black and orange flag, not for Hamilton to move off-line and coast into the pits of his own volition. It would be ludicrous to criticise Hamilton for continuing to do his best to race in those circumstances. I don't recall Hamilton letting anybody by easily, nor should he have done.

 

My only point in highlighting it is that it is equally ludicrous to criticise Rosberg for continuing to race, and endeavouring to minimise his time loss, while recovering to the pits with a failed front wing.



#139 GlenP

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:16

I think some people feel it was a damned cheek to overtake Hamilton in the first place! How dare he. What does Rosberg think this is; some sort of race?



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#140 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:27

Stop making things so complicated,whoever finish in front wins,it's that simple,Lewis had the upper hand all weekend and he finish in front.

 

 

But that doesn't allow people to say  "Hamilton aint all that, yo" and then where would they go? Back to the McLaren thread? That place is dead on it's legs and these guys miss Lewis pretty bad. Since the end of driver specific threads certain posters have been gnashing their teeth with no where to post. This place is like therapy for them. :lol:



#141 dhill39

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:59

But that doesn't allow people to say  "Hamilton aint all that, yo" and then where would they go? Back to the McLaren thread? That place is dead on it's legs and these guys miss Lewis pretty bad. Since the end of driver specific threads certain posters have been gnashing their teeth with no where to post. This place is like therapy for them. :lol:


You're right,it's the lewis factor,they love to hate him.

#142 bub

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:04

Stop making things so complicated,whoever finish in front wins,it's that simple,Lewis had the upper hand all weekend and he finish in front.

 

No.



#143 MrPodium

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:09

After pitting on lap 10, Rosberg came out behind Pic and lost a hatful of time. If they pitted Hamilton on lap 8 as you suggest, the same would have happened. And even if traffic wasn‘t an issue, if Hamilton pitted a lap earlier, Grosjean would have pitted a lap earlier too, and he too would have had one-lap fresher options available for his inlap. You can‘t solve problems of excessive wear by just pitting earlier and earlier.

The team spent the afternoon desperately trying to keep Hamilton from having to make three stops, which would have been a disaster for him. It‘s all very well blaming the excessive tyre wear on fighting with Grosjean, but this is where the thinking drivers worry more about their position on the last lap than they do about their position on whatever lap they happen to be on at the time. If you can‘t get by (and Hamilton never looked like passing Grosjean) then art of your job as a Grand Prix driver is to make sure you look after your tyres.

 

The point is Hamilton tried to get past, it's something called "racing". But if you prefer a tyre conservation exercise, then indeed, award your point to Rosberg.

 

It would also be very interesting (not to mention helpful) if someone calculated the time Hamilton lost whilst lapping four seconds per lap slower, plus the 1m 50 lap stuck behind Rosberg and his broken win. I think that the resulting total lap time loss will be somewhere quite near the time it would have taken Mercedes to bring Hamilton in for that extra pit stop.

 

So a win for Hamilton by a comfortable margin on Saturday, and a win (only just) on Sunday.



#144 GlenP

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:11

You're right,it's the lewis factor, they you love to hate love him.

And?

 

Probably makes a bit more sense to actually look at and discuss what happened. You are being blinded by something if you give Lewis the same "win" for that lacklustre race as you do for his outstanding Hungary win. And yet, you still have the gall to accuse anyone that sees a little more three-dimensionally than you a "hater".

 

Plain fact is that his performance was not significantly different to Rosberg's at this race. Rosberg didn't really deliver on Saturday, but there again he played an intelligent game on Sunday and looked set make more of the tyres than Hamilton - but then his wing broke and we didn't get to see the conclusion. If you have "seen" a conclusion from Korea, I suggest all you have seen is your preconception. Really, no serious conclusion is possible from that race, other than Hamilton won qualifying but could not then go on and make the tyres last in the race.



#145 stanga

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:12

I think some people feel it was a damned cheek to overtake Hamilton in the first place! How dare he. What does Rosberg think this is; some sort of race?

 

I see you've been busy knitting those straw men again. I like the faux-outrage too. 



#146 GlenP

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:15

I see you've been busy knitting those straw men again. I like the faux-outrage too. 

The "faux-outrage" should have tipped you off that I was being humorous.



#147 Jon83

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:27

Hamilton does seem to have the upper hand now though. Last few races hav not gone his way yet he is still almost 40 points ahead. If this was 2011 and a certain other driver was in front ....

 

Hamilton has had the measure of Nico this season. Not bad for a new car against a team mate who is in his 4th season with the same team.

 

He is but Rosberg has lost a lot of points due to retirements etc.

 

I have no doubt that Hamilton would still be ahead (and obviously had some bad luck himself at Silverstone) but it would be closer than it is.

 

Mercedes fans should be happy with this pairing.

 



#148 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:39

Yeah it's not a valid comparison, last year the team specifically told Lewis his 'balance problem ' was safe.  This year Nico 's wing obviously wasn't, and Brundle even mentioned the team letting Lewis past and his 1:50 lap behind. 

 

Perhaps Rosberg might make better decisions if they piped Brundle's commentary through to him in the car? Better decisions for Hamilton, anyway, not necessarily for himself...



#149 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:44

Wow really, did you even watch the race, there was a SC two times so they basicly start again from zero gap and Lewis was stucked behind Hulkenberg after the SC. It's really funny how you can ignore things like this and acting like Nico gained this 22sec by him self!

 

That's not what I said. There wasn't a SC when Rosberg spent 22s stopped in the pits and thus got overtaken by a load of cars including Hamilton. The SC closed up the pack but it did not give Rosberg his positions back.



#150 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 13:05

The point is Hamilton tried to get past, it's something called "racing". But if you prefer a tyre conservation exercise, then indeed, award your point to Rosberg.

 

It would also be very interesting (not to mention helpful) if someone calculated the time Hamilton lost whilst lapping four seconds per lap slower, plus the 1m 50 lap stuck behind Rosberg and his broken win. I think that the resulting total lap time loss will be somewhere quite near the time it would have taken Mercedes to bring Hamilton in for that extra pit stop.

 

So a win for Hamilton by a comfortable margin on Saturday, and a win (only just) on Sunday.

 

Again, are we giving everyone the benefit of imagining what they'd have done on a strategy other than the one they actually chose, selected with the benefit of hindsight, or is that method of analysis reserved only for those drivers who make futile, failed attempts to overtake cars that are faster than them over a stint and destroy their tyres in the process?

 

As for the suggestion that being concerned about being there at the end is somehow contrary to the spirit of racing, I really am lost for words. The race classification has always been done on the basis of the postions at the end of the final lap, as far as I'm aware. It's always been necessary to try to drive at a pace that you can keep up throughout the race, ever since the earliest days of motor racing.