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Hamilton Vs Rosberg - 2013 Part 3


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#151 Farhannn15

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:00

Wow really, did you even watch the race, there was a SC two times so they basicly start again from zero gap and Lewis was stucked behind Hulkenberg after the SC. It's really funny how you can ignore things like this and acting like Nico gained this 22sec by him self!

 

Although the SC did help him out, he lost track position to Lewis, Hulkenburg, Alonso and Button. If there were no front wing problems he would have been ahead of all them whilst chasing Grosjean and Raikkonnen



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#152 Atreiu

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:13

I'm still a bit puzzled with Hamilton's strategy.

He lost a bit over 20 seconds with his dead tyres, which was nearly as much as he would have lost with an extra pit stop. Why did Mercedes not switch to 3 stops and allow him to race harder and faster? Fresher rubber pays off every now and then. They were never going to beat Vettel and Grosjean.

 

Anyone?



#153 P123

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:13

Although the SC did help him out, he lost track position to Lewis, Hulkenburg, Alonso and Button. If there were no front wing problems he would have been ahead of all them whilst chasing Grosjean and Raikkonnen

 

He would also have been ahead of Kimi (depending on when he would have pitted; Kimi was out on fresh tyres), as would Hamilton have been if not held up and then forced to do an additional lap on spent tyres.



#154 P123

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 15:14

I'm still a bit puzzled with Hamilton's strategy.

He lost a bit over 20 seconds with his dead tyres, which was nearly as much as he would have lost with an extra pit stop. Why did Mercedes not switch to 3 stops and allow him to race harder and faster? Fresher rubber pays off every now and then. They were never going to beat Vettel and Grosjean.

 

Anyone?

 

They thought it was just graining to begin with.  By the time it was apparent that the tyres were indeed 'dead' that opportunity was all but gone.



#155 f1fastestlap

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:08

Rosberg 5 - 10 Hamilton



#156 andrewf1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:11

Draw.



#157 Tropicana

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:14

I declare the qualifying battle  between Hamilton and Rosberg a draw for this weekend.



#158 Raven8

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:17

I declare the qualifying battle  between Hamilton and Rosberg a draw for this weekend.

Yes, how bad from Lewis only to be 3 pos. better



#159 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:21

Rosberg half a tenth up on Lewis but for the final 18 seconds of the lap when Hamilton pulled it back and more. 10-5. Impressive by Lewis.

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#160 jrg19

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:33

Qualifying done and dusted, great job Lewis  :smoking:



#161 f1fastestlap

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:35

Qualifying done and dusted, great job Lewis  :smoking:

 

Don't know, I'm sure there's still some guys in denial... :cool:


Edited by f1fastestlap, 12 October 2013 - 06:35.


#162 Boxerevo

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:35

I didn't got proud of Lewis for a third from a long time.

 

He got there and did very well his job,behind RBRs.

 

Well played Lewis.


Edited by Boxerevo, 12 October 2013 - 06:36.


#163 Tropicana

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:44

If Weber has a bad start and Vettel continues to have Kers issues who knows. There might be some hope....



#164 SamH123

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:45

I declare the qualifying battle  between Hamilton and Rosberg a draw for this weekend.

 

Actually Rosberg was 2-1 for sector times   ;)

 

But seriously, another good qualy for Hamilton to maximise it and get 3rd though, can't ask for much more



#165 Boxerevo

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:52

Actually Rosberg was 2-1 for sector times   ;)

 

But seriously, another good qualy for Hamilton to maximise it and get 3rd though, can't ask for much more

I think lewis losed one ball in that last sector,with 3kg less he got ahead in time. :smoking:



#166 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:13

He would have been P6 otherwise. His weekend was finely in the balance just then.

#167 apoka

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:37

Very good job by Lewis!

 

Lauda said Rosberg has some setup issues this weekend. He was a bit unlucky to be P6 with almost the same time as P4, but a gap to P7. However, I still have hope for a good and clean race. May his tyres be with him.



#168 Leatherman

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:56

I think if you look at this objectively, LH has had around 3/10th's on NR in Qualifying, over the season.  He had about that over BUT too.  I think he's simply the quicker one lap driver.  Nothing I have seen this year, has challenged that view, in my opinion.  However, his starts have been ordinary and I must admit, he's been a bit timid on the track too, unless ALO is trying to get past him.  I see to remember 2010 him and ALO having a ding dong over 14th position; something stirs in him when he needs to compete with the best, but otherwise?  It's odd.

 

Nothing I have seen this year from ROS see's him dining at the top table either.  I think it's clear, over the season, who's been the better driver.  That's an objective view.  I am hoping to see HULK in a top car next year, for I do suspect he's a top, top driver.  However, his weight...


Edited by Leatherman, 12 October 2013 - 08:01.


#169 P123

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:00

Good effort but it's going to be tough holding back the Lotus tomorrow.  Rosberg also needs to clear Massa at the start.



#170 baddog

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:08

Hamilton transparently had a better day of it today, having a clear 3 tenths when he needed it. There isnt really anything more to say about that.



#171 apoka

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:34

I think if you look at this objectively, LH has had around 3/10th's on NR in Qualifying, over the season.  He had about that over BUT too.  I think he's simply the quicker one lap driver.  Nothing I have seen this year, has challenged that view, in my opinion.  However, his starts have been ordinary and I must admit, he's been a bit timid on the track too, unless ALO is trying to get past him.  I see to remember 2010 him and ALO having a ding dong over 14th position; something stirs in him when he needs to compete with the best, but otherwise?  It's odd.

 

Nothing I have seen this year from ROS see's him dining at the top table either.  I think it's clear, over the season, who's been the better driver.  That's an objective view.  I am hoping to see HULK in a top car next year, for I do suspect he's a top, top driver.  However, his weight...

 

I would say that Rosberg is certainly closer in qualy to Hamilton. Yes, Rosbergs often didn't improve as much in his last Q3 run as Hamilton, but it is often a close and entertaining battle. After Korea, the qualifying average was 0.03s on average in Hamiltons favour (http://forums.autosp...een-team-mates/).

 

I am not claiming to be completely objective, but also in the race I feel it is closer. Hamilton had some races, in which he was plain faster, but mostly they are very evenly matched. Button won on points vs. Hamilton over 3 years, but in 2010 and 2012 you still had that feeling that something needs to go wrong for Hamilton if Button finishes higher/close. I don't have that feeling with Nico, although admittedly the points gap doesn't confirm this - but you also have to factor in that Hamilton clearly is not having a 2011 type season and he had slightly better reliability than Nico overall.



#172 kedia990

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:02

I think if you look at this objectively, LH has had around 3/10th's on NR in Qualifying, over the season.  He had about that over BUT too.  I think he's simply the quicker one lap driver.  Nothing I have seen this year, has challenged that view, in my opinion.  However, his starts have been ordinary and I must admit, he's been a bit timid on the track too, unless ALO is trying to get past him.  I see to remember 2010 him and ALO having a ding dong over 14th position; something stirs in him when he needs to compete with the best, but otherwise?  It's odd.

 

Nothing I have seen this year from ROS see's him dining at the top table either.  I think it's clear, over the season, who's been the better driver.  That's an objective view.  I am hoping to see HULK in a top car next year, for I do suspect he's a top, top driver.  However, his weight...

 

Bias on record: I'm a Hamilton fan.

 

Lewis's starts have been way below ordinary - it's almost a given that he's going to concede a position or 2 at the start. Whether this is his cautiousness, or a function of Mercedes' high fuel usage - I don't know.

Not only are his starts cringeworthy, but also restarts behind a SC. Appalling at best.

 

I wouldn't say that he's being too timid on track though - he seems to be making the most of his opportunities (can you substantiate otherwise?), and has finally come round to realize that winning the championship isn't all about going balls out at every lap of every race - It's about bringing the car home and picking up the points that your machine is capable of earning you. I quite like that, compared to say 2011.

 

Then again, I could be completely wrong.



#173 JensonWDC

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:37

Lewis gambling with low(er) downforce setup.

 

http://www.auto-moto...os-7788590.html



#174 redreni

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:07

Lewis gambling with low(er) downforce setup.
 
http://www.auto-moto...os-7788590.html


Which should prove useful for defending in the race. If he looks after his tyres there‘s a podium in this for him. Who knows, with the RedBulls in the wrong order, maybe they will do a Prost-Senna?

Points are on Sunday, though. It remains to be seen if Hamilton will show the required patience or not. Forecast low temps should help him anyway.

Rosberg being on medium/high downforce may explain why he was so visibly disappointed at the weigh-in. No point being quicker than the likes of Massa in the twisty stuff as he won‘t be able to fly over them. What he needs tomorrow is the ability to draft past them but by the sound of it he may be hampered by drag and/or a short 7th gear. It could be a tall order for Rosberg to win the weekend from here.

#175 Obi Offiah

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:21

Not only are his starts cringeworthy, but also restarts behind a SC. Appalling at best.

 

I don't understand why this has happened, because he used to excel in this department.



#176 sennafan24

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:26

Rosberg 5 - 10 Hamilton

This means Lewis wins the season in qualifying.

 

All hail wonderman!



#177 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:31

Hamilton's start in Korea was amateur. He left metres of track which he could have used for turn in. Grosjean probably wouldn't have got past otherwise and he would have had a totally different race. Hopefully he's past one of the RBs tomorrow by T1 because it's been a while since he's had anything like a clean weekend. Would be nice to see a straight fight, even if Vettel prevails.

#178 jrg19

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:56

Really pleased this milestone has been passed, Lewis has beaten one of the fastest guys on the grid in qualifying over a season now.

 

Should keep some of the haters away.



#179 sennafan24

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:01

Really pleased this milestone has been passed, Lewis has beaten one of the fastest guys on the grid in qualifying over a season now.

 

Should keep some of the haters away.

Not just beat, so far he has double the victories. It could end up being something like, 12-7 or 13-6., even 11-8 considering he is new to the team and struggled to adapt early on is a accomplishment.

 

I agree his starts need working on, but Lewis is still a bloody great driver and one of the best on the grid. Never let the haters tell you otherwise.



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#180 stanga

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:35

I don't understand why this has happened, because he used to excel in this department.


It seems to be a function of the Mercedes. My overriding memory of Merc over the past few seasons is a car that drops back from the start. It doesn't like being heavy. Rosberg also doesn't pull up any trees at the start and is defensive quite early on, if I recall correctly. Then I remember Shumacher's horrific start in the US last year.

#181 peroa

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:37

Which should prove useful for defending in the race. If he looks after his tyres there‘s a podium in this for him. Who knows, with the RedBulls in the wrong order, maybe they will do a Prost-Senna?

Points are on Sunday, though. It remains to be seen if Hamilton will show the required patience or not. Forecast low temps should help him anyway.

Rosberg being on medium/high downforce may explain why he was so visibly disappointed at the weigh-in. No point being quicker than the likes of Massa in the twisty stuff as he won‘t be able to fly over them. What he needs tomorrow is the ability to draft past them but by the sound of it he may be hampered by drag and/or a short 7th gear. It could be a tall order for Rosberg to win the weekend from here.

It will b

 

Lewis gambling with low(er) downforce setup.

 

http://www.auto-moto...os-7788590.html

Well, it's nice to gamble a bit at this stage of the season, nothing to lose, problem is that the merc pitwall will again be sleeping tomorrow and the possibility of dropping like a stone because they again won't be able to decide when to pit, converting 2 -> 3 stops etc. is very high.

 

Just like in Korea, once he got a problem they hanged him out to dry, instead of turning the situation into an opportunity.



#182 peroa

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:43

I don't understand why this has happened, because he used to excel in this department.

It was the same at Macca in the past few years.

Since blowing was introduced, the merc engine and its setup seem to be the worst on the grid on the first lap and restart or its just a coincidence and it's the way the car treats its tyres and the setup they have to use because of that.

In Korea the real problem was just S1, they completely messed up the setup for it.

 

Look at the Hulk, his car was setup for S1 only, T2 was the most important corner in the whole race and Sauber made sure they got it right there.



#183 Raven8

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:02

It will b

 

Well, it's nice to gamble a bit at this stage of the season, nothing to lose, problem is that the merc pitwall will again be sleeping tomorrow and the possibility of dropping like a stone because they again won't be able to decide when to pit, converting 2 -> 3 stops etc. is very high.

 

Just like in Korea, once he got a problem they hanged him out to dry, instead of turning the situation into an opportunity.

True they should let him push, even if it means 1 more stop not leaving him out on dead tyres, they should realise they can't have both ( less stops and being fast)



#184 peroa

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:10

True they should let him push, even if it means 1 more stop not leaving him out on dead tyres, they should realise they can't have both ( less stops and being fast)

Well, they shouldn't let him mindlessly push, BUT if it turns out that the tyre usage is more than anticipated they should make the proper decisions.

A 3 stop in Korea was 8sec slower than a two stop, leaving him out cost +25sec IIRC.

That is what I'm talking about.

Another thing re Korea, it was clear to anybody following LT that the graining phase was over, just like LH said. All the cars at the front behaved the same.

I truly think that the people there either have too much info and don't see the tree, or nobody has the cojones to make the call.



#185 Raven8

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:21

Well, they shouldn't let him mindlessly push, BUT if it turns out that the tyre usage is more than anticipated they should make the proper decisions.

A 3 stop in Korea was 8sec slower than a two stop, leaving him out cost +25sec IIRC.

That is what I'm talking about.

Another thing re Korea, it was clear to anybody following LT that the graining phase was over, just like LH said. All the cars at the front behaved the same.

I truly think that the people there either have too much info and don't see the tree, or nobody has the cojones to make the call.

Of course nobody speaks of mindlessly pushing, but as you said they have to weigh up their options better. Korea was sh+t, regardless what excuses the team had.

Maybe they should listen to the drivers more. IMo some (race) engineers are very stubborn & arrogant sometimes



#186 Raven8

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:28

Lewis gambling with low(er) downforce setup.

 

http://www.auto-moto...os-7788590.html

Lotus took the same direction with set up. They think the wind might play into their cards, if it comes from the same direction than today it automatically increases downforce, at certain parts of the track, if not ...probably it's worth the gamble



#187 spacekid

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:34

Lewis looks to be comfortably ahead of Nico at Suzuka, no real surprise with the quali position. Good effort from Ham, Rosberg has made life tricky for himself and is going to have a tough time with field spread tomorrow I reckon.



#188 f1fastestlap

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:57

Bias on record: I'm a Hamilton fan.

 

Lewis's starts have been way below ordinary - it's almost a given that he's going to concede a position or 2 at the start. Whether this is his cautiousness, or a function of Mercedes' high fuel usage - I don't know.

Not only are his starts cringeworthy, but also restarts behind a SC. Appalling at best.

 

I wouldn't say that he's being too timid on track though - he seems to be making the most of his opportunities (can you substantiate otherwise?), and has finally come round to realize that winning the championship isn't all about going balls out at every lap of every race - It's about bringing the car home and picking up the points that your machine is capable of earning you. I quite like that, compared to say 2011.

 

Then again, I could be completely wrong.

 

Yeah, kimi and alonso sure won plenty of championships for lotus and ferrari, respectively, in the last few years doing just that... :cool:



#189 Obi Offiah

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 13:58

Lewis' has said himself that his qualification performance wasn't great and that Nico got more out of the car.  He however favoured a set up more biased towards qualification which may explain why he is ahead of Nico.  We'll see how the different strategies play out tomorrow.



#190 Raven8

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 14:02

Lewis' has said himself that his qualification performance wasn't great and that Nico got more out of the car.  He however favoured a set up more biased towards qualification which may explain why he is ahead of Nico.  We'll see how the different strategies play out tomorrow.

Meanwhile Rosberg thought he would qualify further ahead, and was not really delihghted with 6th, maybe his lap wasn't great either.



#191 bub

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 17:47

Hamilton transparently had a better day of it today, having a clear 3 tenths when he needed it. There isnt really anything more to say about that.

 

3 tenths?

 

Anyway, decent quali from Lewis. Obvious win.

 

Now for the important bit.


Edited by bub, 12 October 2013 - 19:16.


#192 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:46

If it comes off for Lewis tomorrow, nothing will be said. If not, we'll get the usual "short sighted" "immature racer" "can't see the long term" "Saturday driver" rubbish. I for one hope he proves a lot of people wrong

#193 sennafan24

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:00

If it comes off for Lewis tomorrow, nothing will be said. If not, we'll get the usual "short sighted" "immature racer" "can't see the long term" "Saturday driver" rubbish. I for one hope he proves a lot of people wrong

Same here, but I am mildly concerned.

 

I get his logic though, it is hard to pass at Japan, with only one DRS zone.



#194 ThomFi

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:03

Meanwhile Rosberg thought he would qualify further ahead, and was not really delihghted with 6th, maybe his lap wasn't great either.

 

Ok, let's compromise, both were rubbish.
(I'm just trying to help)



#195 bub

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:06

If it comes off for Lewis tomorrow, nothing will be said. If not, we'll get the usual "short sighted" "immature racer" "can't see the long term" "Saturday driver" rubbish. I for one hope he proves a lot of people wrong

 

I doubt that. Lewis has many fans as well as many haters. Surely his fans will have something to say if it comes off for him tomorrow?



#196 MightyMoose

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:40

It's very wearying to read about "haters" after a driver has done a top job.

 

This isn't the only thread that has people thinking "posi-trolling" is the way forward, let's be clear. It isn't.  All it does is bring the conversation down and degrade the quality of the thread.

 

If you're of the opinion that people will come in looking to stir up trouble, instead of getting in your retaliation first, how about having the conviction to rise above it & let us deal with it? 



#197 CHIUNDA

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:21

True they should let him push, even if it means 1 more stop not leaving him out on dead tyres, they should realise they can't have both ( less stops and being fast)


Yep like peroa's part of gambling bcoz of nothing much to lose.Use these last few races as test sessions to determine true boundaries of the car and the viability of ideas ahead of 2014. As we used to be told in school, best get it wrong before the exam so that you have the right thing when the real pressure is on. Agree - if extra stop is required, let him have it - see what that option is worth, have some real data instead of endless scenario analyses.

#198 skyform

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:22

Ah Lewis really doesn't have any luck, finally has a decent start and then such a crap, now it's done he lost his 3rd place to Kimi, really a shame, was looking foward to this battle.



#199 Boxerevo

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:26

I was all year sad with Lewis timid starts.

 

First agressive start and bang...retired like old young days.

 

Yeah...better he do like he was doing at least on the starts. :yawnface:



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#200 Coral

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:29

Pity for Lewis...and now Nico has a drive-through. Bad day. :(