Jump to content


Photo

François Cevert


  • Please log in to reply
352 replies to this topic

#301 philippe7

philippe7
  • Member

  • 2,777 posts
  • Joined: August 03

Posted 16 October 2009 - 07:10

Thank you for a well constructed and balanced post , Dave .

Advertisement

#302 Jop Zwart

Jop Zwart
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 16 October 2009 - 07:27

You're right. There is a huge difference between these drivers and between the world we live in and the world as it was back then (remember 73, when Williamson died and no safety car, no firemen truck were ready. There was no connection between the track and the control tower. No telephones, no walkie talkies, of course no mobile phones...).


There was a telephone connection between the track marshalls and race control, but when Williamson's car crashed, it dug into the sand and cut a telephone wire.
Very unfortunate...

#303 DOHC

DOHC
  • Member

  • 11,860 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 16 October 2009 - 08:51

Now let’s think about Cevert’s car. He would not have had the same car Scheckter and Depailler used. Gardner and Tyrrell “dumbed down” the 007 somewhat to compensate for drivers who were new to F1. (Tyrrell later admitted it was a mistake.) It’s hard to imagine they would have done this if Cevert had been there in 1974. So I believe Cevert would have had a better car than the 007 that actually existed.


Having witnessed how the Tyrrell drivers Scheckter and Depailler dominated the weekend and ran away with the Swedish GP in 1974, that's a bit difficult to believe.

Yes, there were other good contenders, cars and drivers on the track, Lauda, Regazzoni, Fittipaldi, Reutemann, Hunt. Heck, even Peterson and Ickx put the dated 72 on the grid ahead of Fittipaldi in the M23, who went on to take the crown. (Peterson even scored three wins in the 72 that year, same as Fittipaldi and Reutemann.) In all the pre-race talk and speculation, I recall that season -- although it was still early on -- as being considered a battle between hot-shot challenger Lauda and weathered ex-champion Fittipaldi, in the wake of Stewart's retirement. This was not too wide off the mark. And still, it was the Tyrrells that dominated. Depailler was on pole, scored the fastest lap, and Scheckter, of course, took the win. The Tyrrells had everything except the appearance of a dumbed-down car. Their drivers may have been "lesser stars" at the time, but they were surely in contention.


#304 ivandjj

ivandjj
  • Member

  • 98 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 16 October 2009 - 10:17

even if scheckter was faster than cevert, it was not by as much as lauda was faster than regazzoni. so, it is hard to imagine that cevert wouldn't be in the 74 championship battle, at least.

dont know about intentionally dumbed down 007, but whole tyrrell organization must have massively lost its focus and motivation in the wake of glen '73. imagine mum and dad after one kid dies and other leaves home at the same time.

cevert's survival might have tipped tyrrell fortunes just enough in the other direction. not so much from the driving point of view, but more about setups and technical matters, marketing, enthusiasm, motivation and whatever else.

you can dream about cevert winning 74 and than sitting back and helping jody grow and continue the tyrrell dominance thruought the 70s. i won't go so far to suggest that tyrrell would've become another mclaren and ken another ron. some things are genetically impossible :cat:

#305 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 16 October 2009 - 13:12

Leaving aside the fact that when I spoke to Derek Gardner about Francois, he was still, many many years after Watkins Glen, visibly upset, and with more than just a tear in his eye, his comments on the 007 are worth quoting,

"I had designed the 005/006 car around Jackie's extraordinary reflexes. It was markedly shorter in the wheelbase than it's rivals, but it was very twitchy. Francois learnt, and was helped by Jackie, to cope with this, but both Jody and Patrick struggled, they were very much in at the deep end with it, and it showed. So Ken suggested I change the design I had started to take Francois through '74, and eventually I started again from scratch, I had to come up with something they could learn with, be competitive with and hopefully pick up the odd win, which is ultimately what happened, and it had to be ready rather quickly, but I had to make the 007 a bit more, er, complient, user friendly in the modern palance, than the route I was going"

Maybe a long winded way of saying "dumbed down" !!

#306 DOHC

DOHC
  • Member

  • 11,860 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 16 October 2009 - 14:32

Or maybe just admitting that the fastest thing about the 005/006 construction was Stewart and Cevert. Remember that in 1973, Fittipaldi and Peterson took no less than seven wins in the 72, which deservedly took the constructors title. The Lotus was certainly a more impressive car than the Tyrrell. Stewart had to work hard for the 1973 title.

In 1974, Scheckter in the 007 was able to beat the 72 on a good day, and Depailler too was on pace. In the 72, both Peterson and Ickx were very able drivers with a fair number of wins to their credit before the season started. The 007 took two wins, the 72 three, but towards the end of the season, only Scheckter had a chance at the title. Ickx even looked well past his prime.

Not that the 005/006 was totally wrong, but the 007 was a faster car. So, my twist on this is that the 005/006 was a fairly awkward car with two fast drivers, while the 007 was a fairly fast car with two less than seasoned drivers behind the wheel.

If the 007 was dumbed down, it was Gardner's somewhat peculiar (and not entirely convincing) design ideas that were dumbed down. To rebound with the P34 in 1976, of course.  ;)

#307 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 16 October 2009 - 15:05

Or maybe just admitting that the fastest thing about the 005/006 construction was Stewart and Cevert. Remember that in 1973, Fittipaldi and Peterson took no less than seven wins in the 72, which deservedly took the constructors title. The Lotus was certainly a more impressive car than the Tyrrell. Stewart had to work hard for the 1973 title.

In 1974, Scheckter in the 007 was able to beat the 72 on a good day, and Depailler too was on pace. In the 72, both Peterson and Ickx were very able drivers with a fair number of wins to their credit before the season started. The 007 took two wins, the 72 three, but towards the end of the season, only Scheckter had a chance at the title. Ickx even looked well past his prime.

Not that the 005/006 was totally wrong, but the 007 was a faster car. So, my twist on this is that the 005/006 was a fairly awkward car with two fast drivers, while the 007 was a fairly fast car with two less than seasoned drivers behind the wheel.

If the 007 was dumbed down, it was Gardner's somewhat peculiar (and not entirely convincing) design ideas that were dumbed down. To rebound with the P34 in 1976, of course. ;)



A chap on this forum by the name of Nye did an excellent book on the early Tyrrell cars, and in it there is I believe one of the concepts Derek was working on, a flat, tri-angular section monocoque with dehydral (that's not the spelling I know!) fins, I think it was one of four 005/6 developments Derek was looking at.

#308 DOHC

DOHC
  • Member

  • 11,860 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 16 October 2009 - 16:24

Dihedral. "Dehydral" sounds more like that Tyrrell water ballast scam in the early 80s...  ;)

Gardner did have quite original ideas but many of his cars were rather far away from the trendsetting designs. Most trendsetting cars were championship winning cars. But the Tyrrells of the early 70s had few if any followers. Even the 007 was largely a concept in the vein of the trendsetting Lotus 72, as were Shadow, Lola, McLaren in 1974. Not the Ferrari, though.

#309 john t

john t
  • Member

  • 186 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 16 October 2009 - 17:45

I always felt the 007 based on the M23.

Regarding Cevert's ability then look no further than the numerous dvd's of the 1973 season sold on EBay by that chap in Italy. Being a trainspotter type i have watched several of those entire races on more than one occassion. The Nurburgring race in particular demonstrates how superior JYS and Cevert where that day. The 006 was obviously suited to the Nurburgring but on a 'drivers circuit' they make the rest (with the exception of Ickx) look ordinary. Some of the arguments in this thread are very well considered but (in my opinion) the proof is on those precious dvd's!
I wonder why Cevert's ability is in doubt and can only assume his lacklustre 1972 season is to blame. Why was he off-form in '72? I don't know... Someone might offer reasons here i hope.
I always felt that Francois would have totally dominated the '74 season. After that, perhaps not but who knows.....

What would have happened if the likes of Rindt, Williamson, Revson, Pryce, Peterson, Depailler, Senna (etc) had lived?.. But that's another topic.......

#310 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 16 October 2009 - 19:06

Dihedral. "Dehydral" sounds more like that Tyrrell water ballast scam in the early 80s... ;)

Gardner did have quite original ideas but many of his cars were rather far away from the trendsetting designs. Most trendsetting cars were championship winning cars. But the Tyrrells of the early 70s had few if any followers. Even the 007 was largely a concept in the vein of the trendsetting Lotus 72, as were Shadow, Lola, McLaren in 1974. Not the Ferrari, though.

Hopefully Doug might post the Autocar drawing of the 006 replacement definetly had angle fins mid monocoque, years before the 019

#311 seccotine

seccotine
  • Member

  • 128 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 16 October 2009 - 19:57

"I wonder why Cevert's ability is in doubt and can only assume his lacklustre 1972 season is to blame. Why was he off-form in '72? I don't know... Someone might offer reasons here i hope."

I'm glad to read that.
I was 12 when Cevert died and like many French kids, I saw him as a hero. But like many people, I ended up feeling there was something biased in that respect surrounding him, like the suspicion that sentimentality made us see him through pink glasses.
A few years ago, looking back at his career again, watching races again and considering the facts I mentioned earlier, I had no other option than concluding he was a gearter talent than we actually thought. When I realize how short his career had been - seven years including F3 and F2, while careers nowadays last more than ten in F1 only - and remember how difficult things had been for him before he reached F1, I feel heartbroken.

About 1972 : for what I read here and there, including in "La mort dans mon contrat", his Can-Am races and some sentimental ups and downs were the cause of his disappointing season.
We can also speculate while keeping in mind that he had driven only 20 formula one races at the begining of the season. Was the car a bit more difficult that year (JYS wasn't at his best either)? Or did he need a rest? Maybe was there a slight lack of experience. But whatever : great driver, extraordinary character, really.

#312 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,377 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 16 October 2009 - 20:00

There's an earlier thread with cutaways etc:

The Tyrrell that never raced

#313 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 17 October 2009 - 12:53

That will be the one!

#314 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,088 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 25 February 2010 - 09:25

Today he would have been 66.

#315 hansfohr

hansfohr
  • Member

  • 573 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 February 2010 - 09:54

In his last season Cevert was almost on par with Stewart in terms of speed, he was destined to become a real WDC contender. Ironically he lost his life on a track where he won his first GP and where JYS was destined to wave F1 goodbye on a high. Life can be cruel.

Spectators kept silent at 'The Boot' after hearing the shocking news, a moving gesture by the crowds......
http://www.glenphotos.com/memories/

#316 hansfohr

hansfohr
  • Member

  • 573 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 February 2010 - 14:32

Good website Hans, with touching images. I think the Wolf-Dallara shown had Gilles Villeneuve at the wheel.

Yes, that's right. Actually Chris Amon drove the Wolf in the first CanAm round at St. Jovite which lasted just 7 laps. It was Amon's last ever race as a professional racingdriver. Later that year Chris recommended the Canadian to Ferrari, the rest is history.......


#317 Dave Ware

Dave Ware
  • Member

  • 746 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 25 February 2010 - 16:12

Today he would have been 66.


And running the Renault F1 team, perhaps. Or maybe that would have been too much work, when there are so many beautiful women to savor.

Thanks for letting us know, Arjan. Salut, Francois.

Dave

#318 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 11,718 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 25 February 2010 - 16:43

Today he would have been 66.



And running the Renault F1 team, perhaps. Or maybe that would have been too much work, when there are so many beautiful women to savor.

Thanks for letting us know, Arjan. Salut, Francois.

Dave


He would probably have been growing old disgracefully!

Francois is still sadly missed; I met him a couple of times and he always struck me as being a true professional. He was also always accompanied by very attractive women.

:cool:

#319 Pedro 917

Pedro 917
  • Member

  • 1,767 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 25 February 2010 - 17:51

66th Birthday......
That morning of the 6th October 1973, Cevert said : "I'm driving a Tyrrell 006, race number 6, engine number 66 on the 6th of October, this got to be my lucky day!"

Posted Image
Interlagos 1973 / copyright unknown

Posted Image
Paul Ricard 1973 / copyright unknown

Advertisement

#320 Longtimefan

Longtimefan
  • Member

  • 2,940 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:43

Today its 37 years since we lost Francois, seems like a lifetime ago to me but as long as I live I'll never forget him or that terrible tragic day in October 1973.

Rest in Peace Francois, 37 years later and you are still loved and remembered fondly. :(



#321 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,788 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 06 October 2010 - 11:14

I have this photo framed in my studio that either I or my dad took at The Glen on that fateful day......R.I.P. Francois.

Posted Image

Edited by jj2728, 29 December 2010 - 15:14.


#322 Longtimefan

Longtimefan
  • Member

  • 2,940 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:45

Thats a really nice picture, I hope you dont mind if I save a copy of it :)



#323 Chezrome

Chezrome
  • Member

  • 1,218 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:52

I have this photo framed in my studio that either I or my dad took at The Glen on that fateful day......R.I.P. Francois.

Posted Image


A question, jj. I gather you know that you can see in the shadows - left bottom - three silhouettes of people, of one which one is taking a picture. Considering the bulk of the person compared to the two figures nex to him, I gather it's your father.

Or perhaps, you still feel you and your father took the pictures together...


#324 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,788 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:59

A question, jj. I gather you know that you can see in the shadows - left bottom - three silhouettes of people, of one which one is taking a picture. Considering the bulk of the person compared to the two figures nex to him, I gather it's your father.

Or perhaps, you still feel you and your father took the pictures together...


That's a good point and you could very well be right. I do know that one of us was shooting in color and the other in b&w as I have the exact sequence from a sligltly different angle in color.


#325 AAA-Eagle

AAA-Eagle
  • Member

  • 926 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 06 October 2010 - 17:58

A sad anniversary of that tragic day of 6th October, which marks 37 and 36 years since the horrific deaths of François and Helmut. Time goes by, but the pain of loosing never goes weak... :cry:

Posted Image Posted Image
© David Phipps

R.I.P. François :cry:

R.I.P. Helmut :cry:

You will be forever in our hearts and thoughts.

Edited by AAA-Eagle, 06 October 2010 - 18:13.


#326 ReWind

ReWind
  • Member

  • 2,370 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 06 October 2010 - 18:06

Just a marginal note: I wonder who originated the wrong spelling of Koinigg's given name. It is Helmut, not Helmuth.
Proof

#327 Longtimefan

Longtimefan
  • Member

  • 2,940 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 October 2010 - 18:16

RIP Helmut :(


#328 goro

goro
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 06 October 2010 - 18:40




This photo is beautiful. I also do not forget that the pilot.
Sleep well, Francois!

Edited by goro, 06 October 2010 - 19:01.


#329 marty8405

marty8405
  • Member

  • 61 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 29 December 2010 - 14:22

I was at the Glen that weekend, for obvious reasons it is something you can't really get out of your head, I recently had a chance to write about my experience of being there that weekend, here is a link to the story with pics I took as an 18 year old. http://www.sportscar...x-race-profile/

I still go to the Glen for the September vintage weekend, whenever I go through the front gate I go into memory overload.....so many great races, cars, and drivers that I've seen since my first visit in 1970 but I can't stand by the esses and think of anything but Francois.

#330 BullHead

BullHead
  • Member

  • 6,715 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 29 December 2010 - 21:52

Thanks marty, that was intriguing reading. Your brother was right, too.

#331 seccotine

seccotine
  • Member

  • 128 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 31 December 2010 - 23:12

Thanks a lot, Marty.
A moving reading.
Like many french kids/teenagers, I was in shock that saturday evening. Every October 6th, I have a thought for that unforgettable champion, remembering where I was when I heard the news and my reactions to it.



#332 eldougo

eldougo
  • Member

  • 6,245 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 02 January 2011 - 09:11

'jj2728'
Using JJ family photo (thanks ) you can see the difference in the air box he used a small tall extension towards the rear wing ,it would suggest to me Derek Gardner was the first to come up with a current F1 look that we have had for the last few years.

Posted Image
Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

#333 AAA-Eagle

AAA-Eagle
  • Member

  • 926 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 06 October 2011 - 05:34

Today is 38 years without François Cevert, and 37 years without Helmut Koinigg :cry: :cry: :cry:

RIP François
RIP Helmut


#334 E1pix

E1pix
  • Member

  • 9,481 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 06 October 2011 - 06:20

Today is 38 years without François Cevert, and 37 years without Helmut Koinigg :cry: :cry: :cry:

RIP François
RIP Helmut

Very Nice of you, AAA, I loved Francois ever since seeing him get a 2nd at the 1972 Road America Can-Am, and again at his only Can-Am win at Brainerd a few weeks later. Tragic.

One of my best friend's Dad was a corner marshal, if not the Captain, at the Koinigg incident. Also really sad.

Well Done. :cry:

#335 Longtimefan

Longtimefan
  • Member

  • 2,940 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 October 2011 - 09:30

38 years..

I still remember that day, I was only 11 and a huge F1 and Francois fan.

RIP :(

also RIP Helmut :(


#336 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,788 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 06 October 2011 - 21:33

Thought I'd re-post this. Taken by either my dad or I. Saturday October 6th 1973.

Posted Image

Copyright JAG

#337 Dave Ware

Dave Ware
  • Member

  • 746 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 06 October 2011 - 21:45

I recently read Jackie Stewart's fine autobiograpy "Winning is Not Enough," and he said that hardly a day goes by that he doesn't think of Francois (as well as Jim Clark and Jochen Rindt.)

I'm glad this thread was brought to the fore again today. I had wondered if it would be, or if I would if no one else did. October 6 will always be a subdued day.

Salut, Francois. Salut, friends of Francois.

Dave

#338 E1pix

E1pix
  • Member

  • 9,481 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 06 October 2011 - 21:59

Thought I'd re-post this. Taken by either my dad or I. Saturday October 6th 1973.

Posted Image

Copyright JAG

Goodness, JJ, that really puts it to light. The last moments.... :cry:

RIP, Francois.

#339 philippe7

philippe7
  • Member

  • 2,777 posts
  • Joined: August 03

Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:23

I recently read Jackie Stewart's fine autobiograpy "Winning is Not Enough," and he said that hardly a day goes by that he doesn't think of Francois (as well as Jim Clark and Jochen Rindt.)

I'm glad this thread was brought to the fore again today. I had wondered if it would be, or if I would if no one else did. October 6 will always be a subdued day.

Salut, Francois. Salut, friends of Francois.

Dave


Those who read French can take a look at this page of the Mémoire des Stands blog
http://memoiresdesta...es-proches.html
Apparently, journos Eric Bath and Pascal Bro are to publish in the next issue of a magazine called Grand Prix ( not sure if it's in french only...) a comprehensive piece made up of recent interviews of family and friends . They do mention a very emotional interview with Jackie and Helen Stewart , done a few weeks ago on the occasion of the Belgian Grand Prix, in which Jackie said with tears in his eyes that "God could not have hit me harder, ever, unless he would have taken on my wife or children" . He also added something which I don't recall having ever read before : " I can tell it today, Ken Tyrrell had asked me, if I was in the position to do so, to let François win at Watkin's Glen. It was to be my last Grand Prix, and it would have been a nice way to hand over to him, but still I felt Ken was asking a lot, so I told him I'd think it over and we'd talk about it on the Sunday morning. Sadly, there was not to be any Sunday morning...."

Another intersting comment, considering the still debated topic of wether or not François knew that Stewart would be retiring at the end of the year, is in the interview of François Guiter, the man at the helm of Elf sponsoring , who said "I regret we didn't tell François that he would be first driver the following year. That may have changed things......maybe. "

Advertisement

#340 David M. Kane

David M. Kane
  • Member

  • 5,399 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 07 October 2011 - 18:23

God Bless both of them.

#341 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 522 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 14 October 2011 - 15:49

" I can tell it today, Ken Tyrrell had asked me, if I was in the position to do so, to let François win at Watkin's Glen. It was to be my last Grand Prix, and it would have been a nice way to hand over to him, but still I felt Ken was asking a lot, so I told him I'd think it over and we'd talk about it on the Sunday morning. Sadly, there was not to be any Sunday morning...."


I wonder how that would have turned out? Why would Tyrrell need to make such a suggestion - was he worried about loss of sponsorship if Stewart left?


#342 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,049 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 14 October 2011 - 16:12

I wonder how that would have turned out? Why would Tyrrell need to make such a suggestion - was he worried about loss of sponsorship if Stewart left?

I doubt it - ELF are a French company and Cevert was French. "Pas de probleme"

I think it's simply the symbolic or romantic gesture - as JYS said "~ it would have been a nice way to hand over to him."

Edited by D-Type, 15 October 2011 - 17:35.


#343 seccotine

seccotine
  • Member

  • 128 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 15 October 2011 - 12:27


In 1991, Stewart was very clear and honest when he talked about Tyrrell's request :

Great guy.

#344 AAA-Eagle

AAA-Eagle
  • Member

  • 926 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:28

A sad anniversary date is today... :cry:

#345 Longtimefan

Longtimefan
  • Member

  • 2,940 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:18

Here we are again.

Now 39 years since on another Saturday we lost a charming and very talented future world champion.

RIP Francois, we will never forget you or that very black day in October. :(



#346 E1pix

E1pix
  • Member

  • 9,481 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 06 October 2012 - 17:56

Still sad.

RIP.

#347 David M. Kane

David M. Kane
  • Member

  • 5,399 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 06 October 2012 - 18:23

I was at the Glen both years; the memory of both deaths is forever burned in my memory. RIP. You both are missed.

#348 AAA-Eagle

AAA-Eagle
  • Member

  • 926 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 06 October 2013 - 14:03

One of the saddest day, 6th October, is today. This means that we have reached 40-year and 39-year marks since the dreadful deaths of François Cevert and Helmut Koinigg. :cry: :cry: :cry:

 

Francois_Helmut.jpg

 

RIP François

RIP Helmut



#349 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,788 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:53

40 years on, I remember that day as if it were yesterday.
Salut Francois

#350 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 682 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 06 October 2013 - 21:26

I wasn't around 40 years ago, but, developing as I did a deep interest in the history of the sport from an early age, I have long known of the dreadful events of those two USGPs, though I must admit the sad confluence of the dates had escaped me. :(