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Why even bother arguing over who is the best ?


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#1 Moosed

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:14

Genuine question...

 

This sport is not like other sports and never has been, in athletics you can say without doubt that Bolt is the fastest sprinter in the world, in boxing you can say without doubt that mayweather is the best pound for pountd fighter in the world however in F1 this is simply not possible due to the importance of machinery.

 

Every single time i see people arguing over who is better between Vettel and Hamilton and Alonso it seems completely pointless... as no one can ever win the argument. The only way you can compare drivers is if they are in the same team and even then you can't really do it as there will always be points raised about unfair treatment, number 2 drivers, someone being old and past their peak and cars being designed specifically for one drivers driving style... far too many variables in this sport relative to others.

 

There is literally no point to it any of it whatsoever... which is why I'm constantly left dumbfounded by the countless bickering in threads from various fans.

 

no one can win, if you want to argue about who is the outright best at least do it in a sport where one persons domination is completely guaranteed to be down to natural talent (i.e. not most motorsport series and certainly not f1)

 

and that is the end to my pointless rant.


Edited by Moosed, 15 October 2013 - 17:26.


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#2 g1n

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:18

Good try, it is a lost cause though, you will not get this through their (fanboy) skull's.


Edited by g1n, 15 October 2013 - 17:19.


#3 ForzaGTR

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:28

Alonso is the best. I cannot prove this.



#4 Moosed

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:30

Bottas is the best. I too cannot prove this but you cannot disprove it either.



#5 NexusIcon

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:31

I'm the best. I just never had the best car, or any car for that matter. Such a waste.

#6 apoka

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:32

This sport is not like other sports and never has been, in athletics you can say without doubt that Bolt is the best in the world, in boxing you can say without doubt that mayweather is the best in the world however in F1 this is simply not possible due to the importance of machinery.

 

In athletics, you have doping. In boxing, Mayweather is almost certainly not the best, but maybe the best of those with similar weight over the past decade.   ;)

 

In general, you could have a poll whether the pope is catholic and still don't get consensus. That's the nature of web forums. 

 

But more to the point, I think people can just much more easily identify with drivers than teams, so they become more emotionally invested. In sum, you have emotions, different opinions and the web as a place to share thoughts among people from completely different backgrounds. 



#7 ForzaGTR

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:34

Bottas is the best. I too cannot prove this but you cannot disprove it either.

 

And I, like you cannot be bothered to spend 3 hours trying to!   ;)



#8 RosannaG

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:39

In athletics, you have doping. In boxing, Mayweather is almost certainly not the best, but maybe the best of those with similar weight over the past decade.   ;)

 

In general, you could have a poll whether the pope is catholic and still don't get consensus. That's the nature of web forums. 

 

But more to the point, I think people can just much more easily identify with drivers than teams, so they become more emotionally invested. In sum, you have emotions, different opinions and the web as a place to share thoughts among people from completely different backgrounds. 

 

Same with football... Would Messi be considered the best player in the world if he was playing in a lower level team? No way. Oh, and I am a FC Barcelona fan... 

 

And we could go on and on and on forever, no matter what sport we were talking about... 


Edited by RosannaG, 15 October 2013 - 17:40.


#9 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:42

Genuine question...

 

Perhaps because, while what you say is true, the entire (outward appearance of the) sport revolves around who wins the World Driver's Championship.

 

If you say 2008, most people will say 'Hamilton'. Same thing for 1999. 



#10 Moosed

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:44

Same with football... Would Messi be considered the best player in the world if he was playing in a lower level team? No way. Oh, and I am a FC Barcelona fan... 

 

And we could go on and on and on forever, no matter what sport we were talking about... 

 

ridiculous point as in football the best always rise to the top because they have the natural talent to do so, its not like motorsport where you can buy your way into the sport or where there could be thousands of sennas out there who never got a chance to discover their talent due to the cost of getting involved in the sport. Football is a working mans game, if you are good enough anyone can make it... the fact most of the best players in the world come from poor backgrounds is testament to this.



#11 apoka

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:44

If you say 2008, most people will say 'Hamilton'. Same thing for 1999. 

 

Why would I say Hamilton for 1999?

 

 

 

SCNR.  :p



#12 XAXIXAX

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:48

I'm the best. I just never had the best car, or any car for that matter. Such a waste.

lol

#13 revlec

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:56

It's usually a good place for insecure fans who feel the guy who is winning is inferior to theirs.

#14 Afterburner

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 17:57

This thread basically underscores the unspoken nihilism inherent in all F1 discussion here. I did my best to summarise this humourously here, but to be honest you'll never get everyone to understand that it really is pointless to argue about who the best driver is. The best you can do is ignore anyone whose sole purpose is to stir the pot--and to be perfectly frank, they're not hard to find: the quote 'mixing a little truth with a lie makes the lie stronger' is definitely applicable to the dogma followed by 'driver x is best' acolytes.

Alternatively, see this thread for the additional busting of the teammate-comparison myth. One of my favourite threads since coming here. :)

#15 Zoetrope

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 18:05

It's an interesting topic as I rate my favorite driver as the best on the grid. I would like to support someone who I don't rate as best for a day, to know how it feels.  :smoking: I don't watch much sports, so can't test it on other disciplines.



#16 Higli

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 18:19

Genuine question...

What is your question, please?



#17 sopa

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 18:23

Fans indeed are wasting their time if they take it too seriously.

 

However, for teams this is a very serious question, because they need to make wise decisions, who to hire for themselves, who they can trust either to win the championship in the right circumstances or simply collect good results. However, for teams this is not really arguing for the sake of it, more like rational analysis, even though there are probably arguments inside the team as well about which decisions to take.:p



#18 Kingshark

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 18:28

I am the best driver in the world, I cannot prove this, but you cannot disprove it either.



#19 Guizotia

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 20:11

Someone+is+wrong+on+internet.png



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#20 GlenP

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 20:28

Good question. I think a lot of people confuse the one they like the best with them actually being the best. Doesn't bother me if the guys I cheer for are not better - that's not necessarily why I like them.



#21 sopa

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 20:33

It's an interesting topic as I rate my favorite driver as the best on the grid. I would like to support someone who I don't rate as best for a day, to know how it feels.  :smoking:

 

You'd like? Then a warm welcome to the Yuji Ide fanclub!:D You can get a good feeling in here!



#22 JHSingo

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 20:42

I'm about to keel over in shock. Common sense on the internet.



#23 Lone

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 20:59

Genuine question...
 
This sport is not like other sports and never has been, in athletics you can say without doubt that Bolt is the fastest sprinter in the world, in boxing you can say without doubt that mayweather is the best pound for pountd fighter in the world however in F1 this is simply not possible due to the importance of machinery.
 
Every single time i see people arguing over who is better between Vettel and Hamilton and Alonso it seems completely pointless... as no one can ever win the argument. The only way you can compare drivers is if they are in the same team and even then you can't really do it as there will always be points raised about unfair treatment, number 2 drivers, someone being old and past their peak and cars being designed specifically for one drivers driving style... far too many variables in this sport relative to others.
 
There is literally no point to it any of it whatsoever... which is why I'm constantly left dumbfounded by the countless bickering in threads from various fans.
 
no one can win, if you want to argue about who is the outright best at least do it in a sport where one persons domination is completely guaranteed to be down to natural talent (i.e. not most motorsport series and certainly not f1)
 
and that is the end to my pointless rant.


I take offence of your post since you didn't include Räikkonen among the names you mentioned :).

Seriously your post is actually a good example of people who argue who is the best. You mentioned some names which suggest that you as many others have your own rating of who is the best. Why didn't you mention Bianchi for instance who could be the best but haven't had a car to prove it?

#24 garagetinkerer

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 21:14

Someone+is+wrong+on+internet.png

This is the effing awesome! :rotfl:



#25 jonpollak

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 21:27

Alternatively, see this thread for the additional busting of the teammate-comparison myth. One of my favourite threads since coming here. :)

Buttoneer proved to us he's right..

Justin Wilson was/is the best

Jp



#26 sennafan24

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 21:36

 in boxing you can say without doubt that mayweather is the best pound for pountd fighter in the world 

I agree he is, but that is also something you can not outright prove, its impossible to gets fighters all down to the same height and weight, for all we know if Floyd and Andre Ward were the in weight, Ward would tool him.

 

Other than that, good post :up:



#27 Moosed

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 21:45

You mentioned some names which suggest that you as many others have your own rating of who is the best. Why didn't you mention Bianchi for instance who could be the best but haven't had a car to prove it?

 

because i don't see anyone arguing about bianchi



#28 bourbon

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 22:12

It is just something to do while the real contest goes on in the background and we have to wait from week to week.  There is already a WDC and WCC in place to determine who the best car/driver and team (cars/drivers) are each year.  "Best" is defined as the driver/car that wins and team(cars/drivers) that win.  They give a cup and money for it.

 

So in between races we discuss lots of things and create many hypothetical scenarios to pass the time.  



#29 scheivlak

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 22:31

I am the best driver in the world, I cannot prove this, but you cannot disprove it either.

 

I'm not the best driver in the world and I can prove it - but you'd better don't ask me    :D



#30 alpinesmuggler

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 22:38

This thread basically underscores the unspoken nihilism inherent in all F1 discussion here. I did my best to summarise this humourously here, but to be honest you'll never get everyone to understand that it really is pointless to argue about who the best driver is. The best you can do is ignore anyone whose sole purpose is to stir the pot--and to be perfectly frank, they're not hard to find: the quote 'mixing a little truth with a lie makes the lie stronger' is definitely applicable to the dogma followed by 'driver x is best' acolytes.

Alternatively, see this thread for the additional busting of the teammate-comparison myth. One of my favourite threads since coming here. :)

Must reads for any pomo fan (admit it, we all are). Euler, man, GTFO. :rotfl:



#31 JtP1

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 22:52

Alonso is the best. I cannot prove this.

 

Niether can Fernando, but he'll keep telling you he is. :clap:



#32 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 23:38

Why?  Because apart from porn and kittens, arguing is the most important fuction of the internet. 

Genuine question...

 



#33 docronzo

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 00:09

The best driver is the one that keeps on delivering good results compared to his team mate in slower teams at the beginning of his career. Then he evolves from a midfield hero into a tête de la course (as we say in Germany) top pilot and keeps on beating his team mate race after race. It's an underrated achievement (of Vettel) to drive flawlessly from one win to another because the driver level in modern f1 is extremely high. Becoming a champion definitely isn't easy, staying champion is even harder...

#34 noikeee

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:12

Genuine question...

 

This sport is not like other sports and never has been, in athletics you can say without doubt that Bolt is the fastest sprinter in the world, in boxing you can say without doubt that mayweather is the best pound for pountd fighter in the world however in F1 this is simply not possible due to the importance of machinery.

 

This is exactly why there IS an argument to be made about who is the best - because it is a subjective thing rather than a very objective thing like in sports such as athletics, and some very large variables outside of the participants' control impact results greatly.



#35 Coops3

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:16

I think some people just like a good argument.



#36 03011969

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 13:03

I think some people just like a good argument.

No they don't...

 

 

© Monty Python



#37 Tsarwash

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 13:16

I think some people just like a good argument.

I think that judging by many of the threads here, lots of people like a bad argument just as much. 



#38 Rinehart

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 13:31

Genuine question...

 

This sport is not like other sports and never has been, in athletics you can say without doubt that Bolt is the fastest sprinter in the world, in boxing you can say without doubt that mayweather is the best pound for pountd fighter in the world however in F1 this is simply not possible due to the importance of machinery.

 

Every single time i see people arguing over who is better between Vettel and Hamilton and Alonso it seems completely pointless... as no one can ever win the argument. The only way you can compare drivers is if they are in the same team and even then you can't really do it as there will always be points raised about unfair treatment, number 2 drivers, someone being old and past their peak and cars being designed specifically for one drivers driving style... far too many variables in this sport relative to others.

 

There is literally no point to it any of it whatsoever... which is why I'm constantly left dumbfounded by the countless bickering in threads from various fans.

 

no one can win, if you want to argue about who is the outright best at least do it in a sport where one persons domination is completely guaranteed to be down to natural talent (i.e. not most motorsport series and certainly not f1)

 

and that is the end to my pointless rant.

 

Looking at it your way, I can see why you get stuck. I think that far to many people only want to measure drivers driving ability in one identical car on one lap to judge who is best. The best being who is fastest. But you can't because as you say that scenario never happens.

 

In my opinion, this natural ability is only one element of the sport. What you need to do is step back and think, what is the purpose? And the purpose is to win world titles in the top category in the world, which can usually only be achieved once you get a seat in the best car in the best team and DELIVER - which doesn't happen by accident. So for me, many elements combine together to become part of a drivers make up.

 

For that reason, judging if say driver A is better than driver B when A has a better car - that IS part of the game. I've never been interested in who is the fastest over a lap as the be all and end all. Is the best football player the one who scores the most goals? No. Sport is not one dimensional and certainly not F1.



#39 Nonesuch

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 13:36

Why would I say Hamilton for 1999?

 

 

 

SCNR.  :p

 

:lol:  Fair enough. Perhaps a look into Hamilton's junior career can save this ill-worded sentence of mine, but I won't bother.

 

I'll add the following, though: interestingly there was a streak of three years in the '80s in which the WDC did not come from the WCC team. In 1981 Piquet won the WDC driving for Brabham, while Williams won the WCC. In 1982 Rosberg won the WDC with Williams and the WCC went to Ferrari. Williams, in fact, was only 4th that year! Piquet won again in 1983, still for Brabham, with Ferrari again clinching the title. Niki Lauda and McLaren restored the 'normal' order in 1984.


Edited by Nonesuch, 16 October 2013 - 13:42.


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#40 UPRC

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 14:02

Perhaps because, while what you say is true, the entire (outward appearance of the) sport revolves around who wins the World Driver's Championship.

 

If you say 2008, most people will say 'Hamilton'. Same thing for 1999. 

A lot of people would've said HHF in '99 after his stellar championship attack in the Jordan, but nope, I agree with you on Lewis. He was the undisputed star of '99. :D

 

Anyway, I've never had a problem with people saying who is the best. As long as you keep an open mind and remember that its all subjective and not start arguing over it, we're all going to be just fine. Unfortunately, you can't have sports without arguing. Nature of the beast! :p



#41 Ncedi

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 14:24

But I thought that's what the internet is for...porn, grumpy cat pictures and arguing with strangers (regardless of being able to prove your point)! :p  :rotfl:  :rotfl:



#42 alframsey

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 14:42

I generally think it's a pointless endeavour trying to prove who is best, even if I do often get caught up in it, if only because there is no reasoning with fans so it is just a shouting match of "MY DRIVER IS THE BESTEST EVER!"



#43 bub

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 19:03

For fun. Arguing over who is the fastest sprinter right now wouldn't be much fun. 

 

P.S. You absolutely cannot say without a doubt that Mayweather is the best pound for pound (although I personally think he probably is.)



#44 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 19:24

I think it's somewhat a case of "I'm right, you're wrong" too. It achieves absolutely nothing except to waste time, but people will argue other opinions of everything. Drivers, tracks, football, movies, etc.



#45 RosannaG

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 20:35

For fun. Arguing over who is the fastest sprinter right now wouldn't be much fun. 

 

 

 

You never know...  :rolleyes:

 

http://sportsillustr...ping-agency.ap/



#46 Cult

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 20:38

I always think the fact you can't have a definitive answer makes it better to debate.

 

If there was a definitive way to prove who was best, why would it be worth discussing?



#47 V3TT3L

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 20:51

Truth must be told.  :o



#48 Dunc

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 21:17

Great thread. I also think you can't decide on the greatest from an era until it is over. For example, Vettel has hit outstanding highs very early in his career, how do we know he hasn't peaked too soon? Maybe after this season he'll never be a WDC again and race 10 more seasons without a win but, all of a sudden, Perez will find form and break Schumi's records. We simply do not know.

#49 wrcva

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 22:21

It is possible to formulate a data driven framework for comparisons but thou shalt commit logical fallacies.  



#50 Afterburner

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 22:28

No they don't...
 
 
© Monty Python

But that's not an argument, it's just contradiction. :p