Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 8 votes

Kimi's relationship with Lotus


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1937 replies to this topic

#101 DeLoreanFan

DeLoreanFan
  • Member

  • 69 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:17

ForeverF1, what I get from the video you posted is that Vettel plays with DC & Raikkonen a lot because he knows them and he knows they can handle it --Vettel doesn't do that with people he is not comfortable, but sometimes 'he tests the water', lol. The same with LotusF1 Team, they know Raikkonen and they know he can handle it --the tweets, jokes, unprofessional remarks, etc...  

 

Lopes was going to sell the team until that victory in Abu Dhabi came. OMG, the way the team celebrated that victory... Bear in mind, not only TeamLotus . Then, came that win in Australia...

 

Believe me, wait until Interlagos, I suspect I'll see some tears when they realize is KR's last race for them. They are just trying to be tough right now and carrying on. They grew to love KR, the separation is not being easy for them.


Edited by DeLoreanFan, 18 October 2013 - 06:22.


Advertisement

#102 Wolfie

Wolfie
  • Member

  • 1,330 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:45

Please explain me why it was so criminal of Kimi to finally say that he hasn't been paid?

 

Hasn't he been asked the same thing over and over again during this and last year?

 

He always said that Lotus knows exactly what they need to fix if they want to negotiate with him for next year, adding that they know what the problem is and that it's easy to fix.

 

After repeating the same thing for months and still didn't get paid, which was strange unless they wanted him out, he finally said what his reason for leaving was.

 

The timeline is interesting; if you google you can see that Eric Bouillier said for example already in the beginning of July that Kimi hadn't been paid: http://grandprix247....-was-paid-late/

 

Kimi said that he hasn't been paid in mid-September: http://www1.skysport.../12473/8929591/

 

So if his boss had already said it two months earlier, why was it so wrong of Kimi to say it out loud?

 

 



#103 Raelene

Raelene
  • Member

  • 5,332 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:49

Now, as the OP does say they want to talk about the relationship between Lotus and Kimi more generally, can someone walk me through EXACTLY what the screwing rabbits tweet was trying to say?

I thought it was trying to say "f_ck :rotfl: "



#104 RosannaG

RosannaG
  • Member

  • 698 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:51

Some people said that if Kimi doesn't care why his fans do? And I think... Why should they behave like him? 

 

For me, it would be pathetic if his fans would try to copy him. I call that lack of personality.



#105 Cyanide

Cyanide
  • Member

  • 2,623 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:53

Now, as the OP does say they want to talk about the relationship between Lotus and Kimi more generally, can someone walk me through EXACTLY what the screwing rabbits tweet was trying to say?

 

Trying to explain this without using profanity, but it's the most apparent when I actually use some. Basically they felt they got f*cked over with him leaving. So they decided that a rabbit humping another rabbit is representative of what Kimi did to Lotus. 



#106 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 5,832 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:53

I don´t know why people get so fussed about that Kimi said he hasn´t been paid...no idea if people really know that he already said he hasn´t been paid already a year before and not just now before/after ferrari deal but it was just now talked a bit more. Also Boullier admitted they havent paid for Kimi .There is nothing wrong to say you are not paid...Kimi has had to pay his own trips etc. Also Lotus constantly promised new sponsors/investors but until now there been nothing, only empty promises. I don´t think their relationship is bad anyway...as Lopez said Kimi is like a son to him.



#107 DrF

DrF
  • Member

  • 1,427 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:01

Now, as the OP does say they want to talk about the relationship between Lotus and Kimi more generally, can someone walk me through EXACTLY what the screwing rabbits tweet was trying to say?

That Lotus have given a Chimpanzee an iPhone with a Twitter account?

#108 Wolfie

Wolfie
  • Member

  • 1,330 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:01

There is no single man in the world, that doesn't care what others say about him. He only doesn't show that.

You are probably right about that, Shiroo :up:

 

Kimi's public image was not the best in 2009 and he was scarred by the media. Lotus certainly knew about it, so for them to try and degrade Kimi's public image must be intentional IMO. And fans also care about it :evil:

 

Shell got immense support from fans when they made their tribute to Kimi in 2009 - professional and classy :up:

 



#109 DrF

DrF
  • Member

  • 1,427 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:08

The same with LotusF1 Team, they know Raikkonen and they know he can handle it --the tweets, jokes, unprofessional remarks, etc...

... pity some of his fans can't.

#110 Oho

Oho
  • Member

  • 7,559 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:10

..seems to me like they're more having a pop at Alonso.

 

 

Why, I doubt Lotus have any beef with him, or what ever it might be it should be water under the bridge. Räikkönen on the other hand, from their perspective it seems, abandoned ship. Pretty much all higher ranking Lotus managers have come through sounding more than just a tad bitter at Räikkönen deciding to leave for Ferrari.



#111 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,087 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:20

Why, I doubt Lotus have any beef with him, or what ever it might be it should be water under the bridge. Räikkönen on the other hand, from their perspective it seems, abandoned ship. Pretty much all higher ranking Lotus managers have come through sounding more than just a tad bitter at Räikkönen deciding to leave for Ferrari.

 

Sorry, to be clearer, what I was trying to say was that if they were having a pop at anyone, it would be Alonso, for the reasons I explained in my breakdown of the cartoon. But I really didn't think there was malice intended in any direction.

 

This case really needs Elaine Benes! http://www.youtube.c...h?v=I1fSMUOzufI

 

 

Trying to explain this without using profanity, but it's the most apparent when I actually use some. Basically they felt they got f*cked over with him leaving. So they decided that a rabbit humping another rabbit is representative of what Kimi did to Lotus. 

 

That makes sense. Glad they opted to illustrate it with rabbits, not people I guess.



#112 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,490 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:28

Big deal.

 

Fans and not-fans are crying over twitter cartoon. Though I don't use facebook, I know Lotus F1 facebook pages had nice campaign to get fan greetings to Kimi Räikkönen with some competition. This all is forgotten and bitter people are just overanalyzing a cartoon. I found cartoon funny - though no idea what Alonso is saying - and I liked rabbit-rape tweet too.



#113 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:44

Big deal.

 

Fans and not-fans are crying over twitter cartoon. Though I don't use facebook, I know Lotus F1 facebook pages had nice campaign to get fan greetings to Kimi Räikkönen with some competition. This all is forgotten and bitter people are just overanalyzing a cartoon. I found cartoon funny - though no idea what Alonso is saying - and I liked rabbit-rape tweet too.

 

Ya that's sad that no one mentioned whole campaign about greetings for Kimi, only focus on one cartoon from Cirebox, that Lotus fans and Kimi followers should be aware of his taste and works.

Then the whole campaign also shows "bad relationship" between Lotus and Kimi?



#114 Wolfie

Wolfie
  • Member

  • 1,330 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:52

Ya that's sad that no one mentioned whole campaign about greetings for Kimi, only focus on one cartoon from Cirebox, that Lotus fans and Kimi followers should be aware of his taste and works.

Then the whole campaign also shows "bad relationship" between Lotus and Kimi?

The difference is that the fans make birthday-wishes for Kimi and they do a massive work making videos etc. The cartoon was from Lotus.

 

Lotus only receives what fans send to them.



#115 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:57

The difference is that the fans make birthday-wishes for Kimi and they do a massive work making videos etc. The cartoon was from Lotus.

 

Lotus only receives what fans send to them.

 

but Lotus organized whole campaign didn't they? And the cartoon was from Cirebox



#116 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,802 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:11

Cirebox has been doing illustrations for Lotus for a while now, and obviously they have no control over his creative direction; he does what he does and they put it out there without editing or giving feedback. Take it up with Cirebox, not LotusF1.

www.cirebox.com

And who is this "Lotus" that everyone speaks of? Presumably Boullier, Lopez, Parmane, and the engineering team. None of those individually seem to have a problem with Kimi at all, so Kimi's relationship with "Lotus" is just fine.

That said, the team could do more to capitalize on retaining the vast hordes of Kimi fans worldwide even after he leaves. They've kind of missed that golden opportunity there with their very, shall we say "frank", comments.

#117 NexusIcon

NexusIcon
  • Member

  • 154 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:31

I'll take a swing at it. I reckon - get this - that the gag is that on someone's birthday you would expect cake to be presented in friendly celebration. However, the cartoon is 'hilariously' subverting this expectation by suggesting that if he could, Fernando Alonso would launch said cake right into Kimi Raikkonen's face like in the silent screen pie-fights. Quite why Alonso might do such a thing seems left for the individual reader to ponder but probably is down to his reputation for looking to crush team mates. In short, seems to me like they're more having a pop at Alonso.
 
Now, as the OP does say they want to talk about the relationship between Lotus and Kimi more generally, can someone walk me through EXACTLY what the screwing rabbits tweet was trying to say?


I'll have a stab at that...

The tweet said (from memory) "It hurts a bit" alongside the picture and the male rabbit looked to be so 'enthusiastic' about the coupling that, from the female rabbit's point of view, it looked like it could hurt a bit.

#118 Jvr

Jvr
  • Member

  • 754 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:35

I thought to run quick Google Trends study with search terms "raikkonen" and "lotus f1"

http://www.google.co...2008 69m&cmpt=q

 

Of course this is only Google search terms popularity chart but IMO it is taking a lot of weight off from recent EB's comments.



#119 NexusIcon

NexusIcon
  • Member

  • 154 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:37

https://twitter.com/...111780572741632

"@Lotus_F1Team: Well hello there good people! How are we on this fine Friday? No #F1 action this weekend of course; what will you be doing to fill the void?"

Now, this tweet is offensive. Clearly they are happy that there's no race this week so they don't have to see Kimi or spend any time with him. They also mention "filling the void" but I haven't decided to be outraged because they're suggesting Kimi has nothing between the ears or whether they're launching some kind of twitter campaign to decide on a second driver for next year.

Damn their impertinence.

Advertisement

#120 Raifosi

Raifosi
  • New Member

  • 10 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:15

Please explain me why it was so criminal of Kimi to finally say that he hasn't been paid?

 

Hasn't he been asked the same thing over and over again during this and last year?

 

He always said that Lotus knows exactly what they need to fix if they want to negotiate with him for next year, adding that they know what the problem is and that it's easy to fix.

 

After repeating the same thing for months and still didn't get paid, which was strange unless they wanted him out, he finally said what his reason for leaving was.

 

The timeline is interesting; if you google you can see that Eric Bouillier said for example already in the beginning of July that Kimi hadn't been paid: http://grandprix247....-was-paid-late/

 

Kimi said that he hasn't been paid in mid-September: http://www1.skysport.../12473/8929591/

 

So if his boss had already said it two months earlier, why was it so wrong of Kimi to say it out loud?

I think Kimi hinted he hadn't been paid at back to Hungary GP.

When Skysports reporter asked him about his unpaid salary,Kimi said some are rumors and some are not.

I think Lotus was pissed off not because Kimi said to public about unpaid salary,but because they lost Kimi next year.



#121 kimister

kimister
  • Member

  • 935 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:05

https://twitter.com/...111780572741632

"@Lotus_F1Team: Well hello there good people! How are we on this fine Friday? No #F1 action this weekend of course; what will you be doing to fill the void?"

Now, this tweet is offensive. Clearly they are happy that there's no race this week so they don't have to see Kimi or spend any time with him. They also mention "filling the void" but I haven't decided to be outraged because they're suggesting Kimi has nothing between the ears or whether they're launching some kind of twitter campaign to decide on a second driver for next year.

Damn their impertinence.

 

Yeah, obviously  :lol:   :up:



#122 KimiSolberg

KimiSolberg
  • Member

  • 70 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:23

I think it's safe to say at this point that Kimi's relationship with Lotus has deteriorated significantly. First came the move to Ferrari, then the minor controversy of him publicly disclosing unpaid salaries, and the vibe has visibly cooled down. Today it's Kimi's 34th birthday and this was the greeting from Lotus: 

 

https://twitter.com/...6759040/photo/1

 

In my opinion, this is an all time low for Lotus and really disrespectful coming from a professional team. But each to his own opinion. Do you think there is tension between the two and if there is, will it affect his performances (conspiracy theories here or there) in the last few races?

 

Oh lord. The lack of humor is stunning. See Lotus' Facebook page and the tweets the last week. The birthday celebration for Kimi has been ongoing for quite a long time.



#123 wrcva

wrcva
  • Member

  • 985 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:38

EB talks first and thinks later, maybe.    Probably the team will calm down on stupid talk into next races and help Kimi extract as many points as possible.   It is not customary for Kimi talking negative about his cars & teams - there must have been some thing between him Lopez and EB that made him disclose stuff as they are.. he did say in the same statement something like "that is why you make contracts."    

 

EB is trying to rewrite history -- on his comeback, their expectations were so low, possibly taking 2008 at the face value,  that they accepted Kimi's terms in structuring his compensation on a modest base pay plus variable pay per point,  podiums, and wins (whatever).   They obviously never thought what was in the agreement would turn into reality or the risk was low, they though.   So, they hired him more for publicity than the racing results he could achieve - maybe as an experienced nanny to help out with the growth of their future star (GRO).   If they thought that Kimi would rack up this many points they would NOT have accepted his terms that would cause financial distress for the team, from the get go...  assuming they are rational decision makers. 

 

Results turned out to be real, and serious enough that they were forced to adjust his compensation schedule even before that 2012 season was over.    That fact alone shows how low their "racing" expectations from Kimi were going into this.  Lopez admitted many times that they kind of knew Kimi was good but he never expected he would be this good... (meaning, good enough to declare the original contract as a stupid mistake for agreeing to terms beyond the financial means of the group).   

 

On another front, EB, himself, without Lopez would probably never have hired him (remember "I have to look into his eyes" thing...), and as I recall he was even blindsided when Lopez cut the deal with Kimi without EB's input (and/or his input was not an important consideration point).   Lopez kind of said (to EB), here is the new guy we signed, start working with him...

 

So, the current negative talk about him is not exactly reflecting open and honest assessment of how and why they got into this together, but only making the current reality fit back into some imaginary scenario that Lotus brought him in as doing a favor / charity to an otherwise forgotten ex WDC...  unless it is a standard operating procedure for EB and/or Lopez  either 1) not read the contracts they sign 2) sign them anyway regardless of financial affordability concerns.  

 

The bottom line is that Lopez rolled the dice by hiring Kimi, essentially for PR, because his "racing" assessment, at the time (possibly driven by all that negative PR talk about his departure from F1 - motivation, ice cream so on), was that he could take the "low" risk on the contact terms because he did not think it was probable that Kimi's results would end up testing his financial limits...   

 

So, what is Kimi's fault in this?  -- other than racking up too many points?

 

Good luck to both sides!   


Edited by wrcva, 18 October 2013 - 12:42.


#124 kimister

kimister
  • Member

  • 935 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:39

lotusf1_zpsc3b0f006.png

 

I took this from Lotus F1 Team twitter account, but I didn't actually get the idea like what they have claimed in here from posted picture  :p

 

p.s. since I do not know how to embed the tweet on a post, I was left no choice but to post as an image, the link  is https://twitter.com/...786901684150272



#125 Cyanide

Cyanide
  • Member

  • 2,623 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:56

Ya that's sad that no one mentioned whole campaign about greetings for Kimi, only focus on one cartoon from Cirebox, that Lotus fans and Kimi followers should be aware of his taste and works.

Then the whole campaign also shows "bad relationship" between Lotus and Kimi?

 

Oh lord. The lack of humor is stunning. See Lotus' Facebook page and the tweets the last week. The birthday celebration for Kimi has been ongoing for quite a long time.

 

 

:rolleyes:  Like I said on 5 other posts, it's not just about the cartoon. I can't be bothered to paste Boullier's, Permane's and Lopez's quotes again. Go read them a few pages back. 



#126 Wolfie

Wolfie
  • Member

  • 1,330 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:57

Oh lord. The lack of humor is stunning. See Lotus' Facebook page and the tweets the last week. The birthday celebration for Kimi has been ongoing for quite a long time.

Kimi's birthdays have been celebrated widely during the years, what Lotus does is they give the space for some playlist of videos that fans would had made with or without Lotus.

 

Every year some amazing fans take the huge task of creating something, be it video, card or books where other fans can also greet him, it's a real project circulating on many boards.

 

Like I said, it's a playlist of videos created by fans and they would had been made with or without Lotus ;)



#127 Wolfie

Wolfie
  • Member

  • 1,330 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:00

EB talks first and thinks later, maybe.    Probably the team will calm down on stupid talk into next races and help Kimi extract as many points as possible.   It is not customary for Kimi talking negative about his cars & teams - there must have been some thing between him Lopez and EB that made him disclose stuff as they are.. he did say in the same statement something like "that is why you make contracts."    

 

EB is trying to rewrite history -- on his comeback, their expectations were so low, possibly taking 2008 at the face value,  that they accepted Kimi's terms in structuring his compensation on a modest base pay plus variable pay per point,  podiums, and wins (whatever).   They obviously never thought what was in the agreement would turn into reality or the risk was low, they though.   So, they hired him more for publicity than the racing results he could achieve - maybe as an experienced nanny to help out with the growth of their future star (GRO).   If they thought that Kimi would rack up this many points they would NOT have accepted his terms that would cause financial distress for the team, from the get go...  assuming they are rational decision makers. 

 

Results turned out to be real, and serious enough that they were forced to adjust his compensation schedule even before that 2012 season was over.    That fact alone shows how low their "racing" expectations from Kimi were going into this.  Lopez admitted many times that they kind of knew Kimi was good but he never expected he would be this good... (meaning, good enough to declare the original contract as a stupid mistake for agreeing to terms beyond the financial means of the group).   

 

On another front, EB, himself, without Lopez would probably never have hired him (remember "I have to look into his eyes" thing...), and as I recall he was even blindsided when Lopez cut the deal with Kimi without EB's input (and/or his input was not an important consideration point).   Lopez kind of said (to EB), here is the new guy we signed, start working with him...

 

So, the current negative talk about him is not exactly reflecting open and honest assessment of how and why they got into this together, but only making the current reality fit back into some imaginary scenario that Lotus brought him in as doing a favor / charity to an otherwise forgotten ex WDC...  unless it is a standard operating procedure for EB and/or Lopez  either 1) not read the contracts they sign 2) sign them anyway regardless of financial affordability concerns.  

 

The bottom line is that Lopez rolled the dice by hiring Kimi, essentially for PR, because his "racing" assessment, at the time (possibly driven by all that negative PR talk about his departure from F1 - motivation, ice cream so on), was that he could take the "low" risk on the contact terms because he did not think it was probable that Kimi's results would end up testing his financial limits...   

 

So, what is Kimi's fault in this?  -- other than racking up too many points?

 

Good luck to both sides!   

Thank you, your post raised a lot of questions and thoughts ;)

 

Could it be that Lotus protected themself by adding a performance clause in the original contract?

 

EB tells that Kimi is the highest paid driver in F1, but it should be pointed out that he is higly paid due to PERFORMANCE-bonuses ;)



#128 jedioriginal

jedioriginal
  • Member

  • 675 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:15

Thank you, your post raised a lot of questions and thoughts ;)
 
Could it be that Lotus protected themself by adding a performance clause in the original contract?
 
EB tells that Kimi is the highest paid driver in F1, but it should be pointed out that he is higly paid due to PERFORMANCE-bonuses ;)

IMO Boullier was talking about the next years Ferrari deal,not his current Lotus deal...?

#129 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:27

IMO Boullier was talking about the next years Ferrari deal,not his current Lotus deal...?

 

No. He said that about his current Lotus deal, cause the bonuses are simply wow.


Edited by Shiroo, 18 October 2013 - 13:27.


#130 santababy

santababy
  • Member

  • 419 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:30

Like I said, it's a playlist of videos created by fans and they would had been made with or without Lotus ;)


Absolutely! Trust his creative fans, they have been doing them whether Kimi is in F1 or not.

#131 santababy

santababy
  • Member

  • 419 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:32

Thank you, your post raised a lot of questions and thoughts ;)
 
Could it be that Lotus protected themself by adding a performance clause in the original contract?
 
EB tells that Kimi is the highest paid driver in F1, but it should be pointed out that he is higly paid due to PERFORMANCE-bonuses ;)



Great point Wolfie, about the PERFORMANCE based $, he earned them!

#132 jedioriginal

jedioriginal
  • Member

  • 675 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:42

No. He said that about his current Lotus deal, cause the bonuses are simply wow.

Aah,ok.So any idea how much is the basic salary? If the bonuses are 50 000$ per point, we could know how much he actually is paid...

#133 Wolfie

Wolfie
  • Member

  • 1,330 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:49

Aah,ok.So any idea how much is the basic salary? If the bonuses are 50 000$ per point, we could know how much he actually is paid...

5 million euros in 2012 and 3 million euros in 2013

 

http://www.crash.net...earns_most.html

 

http://www.crash.net...earns_most.html

 

That greedy Kimi!!!!



#134 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,273 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:56

So if the 50 000 per point rumour were true, he would be earning about €15 million in total per year? That would make him one of the highest paid, sure, but not the highest paid driver.



#135 jedioriginal

jedioriginal
  • Member

  • 675 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 18 October 2013 - 13:57

Well if these numbers are true,it is safe to say that he is NOT highest paid driver on the grid.

#136 santababy

santababy
  • Member

  • 419 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 18 October 2013 - 14:00

5 million euros in 2012 and 3 million euros in 2013
 
http://www.crash.net...earns_most.html
 
http://www.crash.net...earns_most.html
 
That greedy Kimi!!!!



Indeed! LOL!
The other WDCs are getting basic - 12m, 16m, 20m, 20m.

Edited by santababy, 18 October 2013 - 14:05.


#137 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,883 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 18 October 2013 - 14:15

g1382105575254200086.jpg



#138 wrcva

wrcva
  • Member

  • 985 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 18 October 2013 - 17:03

Thank you, your post raised a lot of questions and thoughts ;)

 

Could it be that Lotus protected themself by adding a performance clause in the original contract?

 

EB tells that Kimi is the highest paid driver in F1, but it should be pointed out that he is higly paid due to PERFORMANCE-bonuses ;)

 

Exactly the point!   Lopez clearly did not expect to pay $ amounts within the theoretical possibilities of the contract he signed...  That is a serious evidence that he hired Kimi more to cache on his popularity than his driving abilities, assuming Lopez is mentally competent rational business decision maker. 

 

If Lopez/Lotus were realistically confident in their initial assessment about Kimi's chances of racing success they certainly would have put that in the agreement that all bonus payments would be made after the post season Bernie revenues are distributed to teams.    Chances are, at that time, Kimi would have accepted those terms as he also was trying to comeback with a questionable reputation left over from the negative PR about him... 

 

Another issue is that many folks have a tendency to judge (rather than see it as it is) other people's wealth.  ie. Kimi, or ALO or HAM are so rich that they will be ok regardless of whatever...   For a moment, if we can forget the amounts in play but just look at the ratios, all rational people, including Bill Gates, make financial decisions based on their current financial profile.    Regular folks barrow a $500 mortgage from the bank to buy a house with the expectation that they will pay it back allocating say ~ 20% of their income per month.   Well, all these stars, earning mega millions, also make similar investments or purchase decisions allocating some % of their monthly cash flow to pay it back - irrespective of the item in question.   If Oracle's Larry Ellison is making a $10M dollar mortgage payment per month on his $800M yacht - so be it.   He can afford that item as a certain fixed percentage of his income.  So, the ratios (or financial obligations relative to earnings) are the same for everyone (without some sort of socialistic judging and equality for the mankind drama).  Yes, the rich has more discretionary spending power but that also is irrelevant to any transaction between Lotus and their drivers or other employees or suppliers.

 

What if Kimi lost his shirt or half of his estate during the divorce and was counting on receiving his Lotus income on time to meet his monthly financial obligations on time, as agreed with Lotus in a legally binding contract?     What is the difference between you or I not being able to make the monthly payment on a $300K Ferrari we could not afford to buy, but did it anyway, or Lopez making a financial agreement on something he could not afford to buy, but did it anyway...  In both cases, the bank likely to repossess the goods.

 

EB is playing the victim card -- poor Lotus facing the big bad greedy and rich Kimi who had the audacity to win more points than expected or planned, therefore he is disloyal and unappreciative of Lotus's efforts...  nicer PR drama than saying we were stupid enough to sign an agreement we could not afford two years in a row, and we are very happy that Kimi is not suing us...   

 

Highest paid driver or otherwise it is all relative...  I'll bet you Seb, ALO, Kimi, HAM, and the rest of the drivers all think they are worth even more than what they are getting paid (again w/o judging), and relatively speaking they all would be totally right.    As an example, when I look at Santander's returns relative to their annual F1 investments (including Ferrari),  I feel bad about Ferrari because they are being shortchanged or taken advantage of relative to how much they contribute to the Bank both in revenue (ROI) and consumer goodwill  (which also means more money as potential future customers).  if I were LdM I would ask for $120M a year, and even that amount will be pitifully small and possibly accepted by the bank right away because what the bank makes is crazily high enough to make you feel bad about poor F1 or Ferrari, or ALO or Kimi...  but that is another discussion item...

 

That said, I still think it has been a very productive partnership between Lotus and Kimi.   I also think Gro has learned great deal from Kimi as well.   Bulk of their issues have been racing and performance related which is a welcomed change, at least for me... 



#139 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,409 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:51

Why do we have to find the stupid tweet funny?  Even explained, it isn't funny.  I don't find it necessarily offensive, but it does make Lotus look bitter.

 

I only paid any attention to Lotus because Kimi is there, and they already lost that good will, so it doesn't really matter.  I don't know how they thought I might regard their comment 'I guess Kimi is only in it for the money' - making him sound greedy for the pittance they had yet to pay. 

 

I don't work for free and I don't expect others to do so either. 

 

For example, I was equally unhappy to hear that Force India could not pay its drivers last year and Sauber was having a similar problem, I think it was the start of this year.  They need to beg or put on a pair of fishnets and sell themselves for cash - but the drivers deserve to be paid.


Edited by bourbon, 19 October 2013 - 03:53.


Advertisement

#140 Wolfie

Wolfie
  • Member

  • 1,330 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 19 October 2013 - 11:32

Exactly the point!   Lopez clearly did not expect to pay $ amounts within the theoretical possibilities of the contract he signed...  That is a serious evidence that he hired Kimi more to cache on his popularity than his driving abilities, assuming Lopez is mentally competent rational business decision maker. 

 

If Lopez/Lotus were realistically confident in their initial assessment about Kimi's chances of racing success they certainly would have put that in the agreement that all bonus payments would be made after the post season Bernie revenues are distributed to teams.    Chances are, at that time, Kimi would have accepted those terms as he also was trying to comeback with a questionable reputation left over from the negative PR about him... 

 

Another issue is that many folks have a tendency to judge (rather than see it as it is) other people's wealth.  ie. Kimi, or ALO or HAM are so rich that they will be ok regardless of whatever...   For a moment, if we can forget the amounts in play but just look at the ratios, all rational people, including Bill Gates, make financial decisions based on their current financial profile.    Regular folks barrow a $500 mortgage from the bank to buy a house with the expectation that they will pay it back allocating say ~ 20% of their income per month.   Well, all these stars, earning mega millions, also make similar investments or purchase decisions allocating some % of their monthly cash flow to pay it back - irrespective of the item in question.   If Oracle's Larry Ellison is making a $10M dollar mortgage payment per month on his $800M yacht - so be it.   He can afford that item as a certain fixed percentage of his income.  So, the ratios (or financial obligations relative to earnings) are the same for everyone (without some sort of socialistic judging and equality for the mankind drama).  Yes, the rich has more discretionary spending power but that also is irrelevant to any transaction between Lotus and their drivers or other employees or suppliers.

 

What if Kimi lost his shirt or half of his estate during the divorce and was counting on receiving his Lotus income on time to meet his monthly financial obligations on time, as agreed with Lotus in a legally binding contract?     What is the difference between you or I not being able to make the monthly payment on a $300K Ferrari we could not afford to buy, but did it anyway, or Lopez making a financial agreement on something he could not afford to buy, but did it anyway...  In both cases, the bank likely to repossess the goods.

 

EB is playing the victim card -- poor Lotus facing the big bad greedy and rich Kimi who had the audacity to win more points than expected or planned, therefore he is disloyal and unappreciative of Lotus's efforts...  nicer PR drama than saying we were stupid enough to sign an agreement we could not afford two years in a row, and we are very happy that Kimi is not suing us...   

 

Highest paid driver or otherwise it is all relative...  I'll bet you Seb, ALO, Kimi, HAM, and the rest of the drivers all think they are worth even more than what they are getting paid (again w/o judging), and relatively speaking they all would be totally right.    As an example, when I look at Santander's returns relative to their annual F1 investments (including Ferrari),  I feel bad about Ferrari because they are being shortchanged or taken advantage of relative to how much they contribute to the Bank both in revenue (ROI) and consumer goodwill  (which also means more money as potential future customers).  if I were LdM I would ask for $120M a year, and even that amount will be pitifully small and possibly accepted by the bank right away because what the bank makes is crazily high enough to make you feel bad about poor F1 or Ferrari, or ALO or Kimi...  but that is another discussion item...

 

That said, I still think it has been a very productive partnership between Lotus and Kimi.   I also think Gro has learned great deal from Kimi as well.   Bulk of their issues have been racing and performance related which is a welcomed change, at least for me... 

Great post once again, wrcva :clap:

 

After reading your earlier post, what if Lotus made up the contract so that they could easily sack Kimi after the first year if he would turn out to be completely rubbish, sort of protecting themself from becoming a laughing stock?

 

They have said that they are surfing on his name and that he is used for PR, EB emphasizing that they have changed their policy from a leading driver to equal treatment. Them stating so soon how RG will be their leading driver next year is almost comical, especially since RG doesn't even yet have a contract for next year - lol

 

As for the money issue, the status is often determined by the salary so if Kimi would drive for free then he would have no status.

 

I strongly believe that they couldn't take full advantage of Kimi PR-wise or that they took the wrong track from the very beginning. Their sense of humour is questionable, especially when seeing how they never make fun of Romain or how many didn't understand their jokes at all (rabbit being one of them, as if they were screwed by Kimi and his poor victims).

 

The insulting cartoon they published on his birthday is only one example of how they make fun of Kimi. They have used the ice cream -'joke' during the last two years and it bothered me at least. Why use something that originially was an insult and 'proof' of his unmotivation so many times? Has anyone ever seen Kimi laugh about it?

Kimi said this in 2012: - People make crap out of nothing. I really didn't have anything else to do except eat ice cream.

So when one driver is made fun of and the other one not, it speaks volumes about their equal treatment and their PR-campaign, which IMO has miserably failed.


Edited by Wolfie, 19 October 2013 - 11:34.


#141 Wolfie

Wolfie
  • Member

  • 1,330 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 19 October 2013 - 11:37

Indeed! LOL!
The other WDCs are getting basic - 12m, 16m, 20m, 20m.

3 m compared to the next WDC's 12 m, that's a lot :well:



#142 kimister

kimister
  • Member

  • 935 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 19 October 2013 - 13:16

I do not understand how people can question the Kimi's will to take what he deserves. It's apparent his base salary is 3-4 m ( see how low it is compared to others ), however the rest 10-12 m is only  based on his performance, which means he EARNED that money !! It is not like that like other WDCs he signed a contract with a fixed 15-20 m. He wanted to be paid as much as he deserved and the consequence is the indication of success.

 

I want to point out that the comments of Boullier and Lopez just show how they didn't expect this kind of achievement from Kimi, in other words underestimated him, as others mentioned on their posts above and why does a businessman hire an employee who is supposed to achieve not so great results,as they emphasized ? Are we supposed to believe in that they felt for him and wanted to help one of ' would-be clean forgotten ' champion ( let's remember Boullier claimed Kimi would be forgotten today without them ! ) and then what ? The reality is they were aware the value of Raikkonen name, he is a brand as a personality and a driver since his McLaren days and he was always on the headlines of all news whatever he says or does, so they wanted to profit from his name and increase the value of the team by attracting new sponsors and magnifying their fan base. It actually worked and now they get much more attention from media and spectators. However, what they should have done after Kimi to Ferrari announcement is not to point their frustration to Kimi and not to make damaging statements; instead if they should have showed their support to Kimi no matter what till the end of season and just put up a bond to pay the salary of their driver instead of blaming him to be greedy  :well: , then they would keep all fans and plus this would have given a message that they are confident as a team though their star driver will be left next year, since now everyone in F1 is aware that Lotus has been trying to push Romain too hard to get him in front of Kimi ( not happening always though ) just to show Romain is their future and Kimi to Ferrari is not a loss for them, this will not help them to assure an investor to team.  They should realise if a team finishes 2,5 instead of a highly possible 1,2 or 2,3, it's just not fault of a driver. It is also indicator of that team didn't do their proportion of the work. F1 is a team sport and as an investor I would want to see my team to use hundred percent of potential. 



#143 fum3s

fum3s
  • Member

  • 470 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 19 October 2013 - 21:41

The thing I have never understood about this fuss over Kimi's comments on the pay issue is that, given that he was obviously relentlessly asked why he was leaving Lotus, what better answer - from Lotus's perspective - could he have given? That the team was not going to have a good car in 2014? That it in reality wasn't a nice place to work? Something else that would have reflected badly on the fundamental identity of Lotus as an F1 racing team to drive for or to invest in? No, he just brought up a side issue that wasn't really newsworthy given that it had also happened (and been resolved)  the previous year, which highlighted the need for possible investors/sponsors to not dillydally, and basically allowed people to put the blame on his impatient greed. In many other contexts you'd call that being a team player.



#144 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:51

The thing I have never understood about this fuss over Kimi's comments on the pay issue is that, given that he was obviously relentlessly asked why he was leaving Lotus, what better answer - from Lotus's perspective - could he have given? That the team was not going to have a good car in 2014? That it in reality wasn't a nice place to work? Something else that would have reflected badly on the fundamental identity of Lotus as an F1 racing team to drive for or to invest in? No, he just brought up a side issue that wasn't really newsworthy given that it had also happened (and been resolved)  the previous year, which highlighted the need for possible investors/sponsors to not dillydally, and basically allowed people to put the blame on his impatient greed. In many other contexts you'd call that being a team player.

Well he shouldn't say anything to begin with about the reasons. He should keep going with "Lotus need to resolve few matters".


Edited by Shiroo, 20 October 2013 - 06:51.


#145 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 20 October 2013 - 07:19

Well he shouldn't say anything to begin with about the reasons. He should keep going with "Lotus need to resolve few matters".

He "shouldn't"? There is nothing prohibiting him from saying that. As a team, you may hope these matters never come out in public. But the team is to blame itself for putting itself in such a 'defaulting' position. Need to resolve what? He has already signed with another team! How is that going to resolve the matter of his 2014 signing anymore? Kimi may have got his own reasons to say something like that. He has already mentioned once that the team could have done a few things differently to secure the financial future. They probably took a lot of things for granted and Kimi felt the need to say something. Anyway, there is nothing technically preventing him to say what he did. If drivers and other employees are not being paid or being paid late, it is a reflection on the financial future of the team, and there is nothing like it to give a hint on 'leave the place'. Lot of people in that situation would leave, not because they did not get the past few months salary, but because it puts a huge question mark on future situation of the team/company. Kimi has always said that the signing for the future with the team would depend on securing the financial future of the team. Let's not distract the issue as Kimi leaving the team because of some months of pending salary. If the Infinity Racing investment had been finalized already, he may not have left.


Edited by SpaMaster, 20 October 2013 - 07:20.


#146 fullthrottle

fullthrottle
  • Member

  • 482 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:21

Also we all know that Kimi is a team owner himself, he has financial responsibility for his team, suppliers and sponsors...etc.



#147 ZZei

ZZei
  • Member

  • 418 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:59

Well he shouldn't say anything to begin with about the reasons. He should keep going with "Lotus need to resolve few matters".

So when he was asked something between the lines "You haven't been paid by lotus, comments on that?" What do you think he should have said. He said its true but hes still doing everything he can for the team. Should he have lied?

Its not like it was a big secret he wasnt paid even one month before that. Asking for a driver to lie to a straightforward question for his team is quite twofaced if you ask me.

And its not like raikkonen made some sort of an announcement, just simply answered a question. If you want to blame someone, blame the reporter who asked such a question which didnt really leave a chance to answer yes or no.



#148 Headspin

Headspin
  • Member

  • 278 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 20 October 2013 - 17:26

So when he was asked something between the lines "You haven't been paid by lotus, comments on that?" What do you think he should have said. He said its true but hes still doing everything he can for the team. Should he have lied?

Its not like it was a big secret he wasnt paid even one month before that. Asking for a driver to lie to a straightforward question for his team is quite twofaced if you ask me.

And its not like raikkonen made some sort of an announcement, just simply answered a question. If you want to blame someone, blame the reporter who asked such a question which didnt really leave a chance to answer yes or no.

 

Very well said, except I'd blame Lotus for not paying salaries.

 

Funny how team doesnt hold their part of the contract and dont pay money they owe, forces Kimi to pay his own travel expences etc, top managers openly admit this and when Kimi is asked about it for the thousandth time and admits this too, so he is the bad guy, even if the whole world already knew this.



#149 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 6,409 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 20 October 2013 - 18:08

Blame the reporter?  Why? 

 

Pay your bills and you won't be embarrassed by anybody.  Otherwise stand up and take your bad management like a man, LOTUS.



#150 HammyHamiltonFan

HammyHamiltonFan
  • Member

  • 161 posts
  • Joined: June 13

Posted 21 October 2013 - 03:44

Lotus won't be anywhere near as competitive next season, no Renault engines, no Kimi...EB will be sat making excuses for Grosjean and whoever pays the team for the 2nd seat most weekends I expect.