50 replies to this topic

[paulrobs]

I haven't posted much this year although I have been reading the threads that interest me because it's possible to pick up a lot from this forum if you steer clear of the driver v driver threads and the car threads which keep keep turning in to car v car threads and driver v driver threads anyway. I think I've watched every F1 race this year although not all live.

 

I've got to get this off my chest though - I haven't enjoyed this season anywehere near as much and I find my enthusiasm for F1 waning. I think this has maybe been happening for a while, not just this year, but as a fan you just push thoughts like that to the back of your mind because you've always loved F1, F1 is your sport and from time to time it will always be less enjoyable.

 

I've been a real motorsports fan since I guess the mid 80's so I've stuck with it for a long time and seen a number of different F1 eras. I've been to Silverstone many times for the British GP, I've been to Goodwood Festival of Speed many times and I've also been to events such as hostoric meets, Ferrari days, Renault's free fun day at Silverstone and the annual autosports show at NEC. I've also visited many car museums including Brooklands and Donninngton as well as more traditional motoring museums such as Coventry, Gaydon and Beaulieu to mention a few. I've been to a few BTCCC races and one day I even spent a few hours watching Formula Renault cars practising at Pembrey whilst on holiday nearby, being unable to resist the sounds of highly tuned race engines, much to the dissatisfaction of my family I might say! I've also done the LeMans crappy weather crappy toilets crappy campsite but fantastic atmosphere and awesome speactacle thing.

 

So I'm not an armchair fan, I've spent quite a bit of my money following motorpsoprt and indulging my love of cars, especially F1. In fact I'm a petrolhead and still am.

 

Now to current F1...

 

I find this whole pre-occupation with spicing up the show, by deliberately contracting Pirelli to deliver sub-optimal tyres that do not last and do not allow an F1 car to go anywhere near as quick as it could do in a race, to be nothing short of a disaster for me. I think I can probably add DRS, KERS and a pre-occupation with green issues to this too. I think if I'm honest that Red Bull's domination is also a factor - clearly Adrian Newey is a genius and Sebastian Vettel is doing a fantastic job - but I've found the races since the summer break to be especially boring and crap really. I detest the constant driving at the limits of the tyres rather than driving at the limit of the cars, drivers and tracks. I know tyres always go off but my point is that they have been deliberately designed to go off to spice up the show rather than going off through normal degredation through a race. I can't recall a supplier ever being told to deliver an inferior product to create uncertainty and unpredictability. Bear in mind that today's 2.4 litre V8s have nothing like the torque of past turbos, V12s and V10s, and yet they still spin up the rear tyres as easy as anything. They are ridiculous and I constantly wonder why a fine company like Pirelli ever agreed to enter F1 to design and deliver crap tyres.

 

The 2014 powerplants for next year might well be technically exciting - and I'm an engineer by trade so I do get excited about engines - but the reduction in fuel is going to force drivers to lap slower than they could do simply to have enough fuel to get to the distance. I'm not immune to this though, I remember when the Honda V6 turbo from the mid to late 80's was not the most powerful - you could give that gong to BMW's engine at that time - but it had better power:economy than the other engines so Honda-powered drivers could go faster for longer.I enjoyed it back then so the 2014 powerplants on their own would not be enough to turn me away. But, add these new powerplants to DRS, energy recovery system (Part of the powerplant I know, and Pirelli tyres that seemingly wear faster than cheese over a grater, and I think 2014 could be even worse for me.

 

I guess where I'm going wth this is that I'm no longer prepared to get up at the crack of dawn or giving up a lot of my time on Saturdays and Sundays to watch qualfying and races live. I'll be watching highlights packages and recorded races from now on, skipping through the tyre-saving drive-to-a-laptime to preserve the tyres phases of races which frankly drives me nuts, rather than watching the races live and enjoying the build up. I guess modern F1 just doesn't do it for me. I always used to say that I loved cars and motorsport and because F1 was the pinnacle of motorsport and the fastest way of getting round a track I loved F1 even more. I just can't say that now and I don't love it like I used to and I really have reached a point where modern F1 irritates the hell out of me and is much less enjoyable for that.

 

Maybe I'm just an old fart, I don't know. I do know that I've fallen out of love with F1 and it's time to move on at least until F1 loses an obsession with artificially spicing up the show. I realise this is what CVC want and many fans may love this and this is fair enough. Not me though. I'll always be popping in here ffrom time to time and I'll still follow other forms of motorpsort but I will no longer be an avid fan of F1. Shame, a real shame but I'm afraid it just ain't for me.

[Jon83]

For as dominant as Red Bull have been, in 2010 and 2012, they were desperatly close to not winning the WDC at least. 2011 also saw some pretty memorable races. I don't think there have been many (or any) memorable races this season sadly.

 

I agree with a lot of your post - in particular around next season's 'powerunits', DRS, ERS

[fastwriter]

Well, every technical regulation has its challenges for the driver. Back in the old turbo days, the drivers also had to drive slower than the car was able, they had to save fuel as well. The tires lasted longer, but the cars where slower due to that. Saving tires always is a factor in racing, even in karting. So that's not a problem for me. The drivers have to be intelligent nowadays, they have to think more. I find that exciting as well. So I will not turn off the TV next year.

Also: With the current aero, there is no other way then DRS and a Push-to-Pass-Button like KERS to help overtaking. Do you want processions like there were before DRS? And I don't think you will get the cars less aero sensitive, because the development never stops. The engineers want to make the cars faster, and with such a strict enging regulation, laptime only can be found through aerodynamics. On the other hand: If you wouln't regulate the engines, they would develop easily over 1500 HP and the cars would get to fast overall. That would be way to dangerous. F1-Fans nowadays would not accept their drivers possibly getting killed - and the sponsors would withdraw at an instant.

 

So yes, in a theoretical sense, I would prefer F1 cars with lots more power and less downforce. In reality, it is impossible. So I enjoy the driving as it is - and enjoy the guy, who ist tactically the most intelligent driver.

[David Lightman]

I've been watching avidly since 1989 and this year has been pretty dreadful; next year sounds like it might be even worse with regards to engines, finances and pay drivers.

[paulrobs]

Well, every technical regulation has its challenges for the driver. Back in the old turbo days, the drivers also had to drive slower than the car was able, they had to save fuel as well. The tires lasted longer, but the cars where slower due to that. Saving tires always is a factor in racing, even in karting. So that's not a problem for me. The drivers have to be intelligent nowadays, they have to think more. I find that exciting as well. So I will not turn off the TV next year.

Also: With the current aero, there is no other way then DRS and a Push-to-Pass-Button like KERS to help overtaking. Do you want processions like there were before DRS? And I don't think you will get the cars less aero sensitive, because the development never stops. The engineers want to make the cars faster, and with such a strict enging regulation, laptime only can be found through aerodynamics. On the other hand: If you wouln't regulate the engines, they would develop easily over 1500 HP and the cars would get to fast overall. That would be way to dangerous. F1-Fans nowadays would not accept their drivers possibly getting killed - and the sponsors would withdraw at an instant.

 

So yes, in a theoretical sense, I would prefer F1 cars with lots more power and less downforce. In reality, it is impossible. So I enjoy the driving as it is - and enjoy the guy, who ist tactically the most intelligent driver.

 

It's not intelligent drivers at all, it's teams telling drivers to drive to a pre-determined laptime to save the tyres to get through to a pitstop window to achieve a pre-computed fastest race strategy. I'm not sure there is anything intelligent in that from a driver perspective. I guess I just don't want to see this type of F1 race though.

[fastwriter]

I wonder, why some guys are better in this game, than others. Assuming your are right, there would be no difference between the drivers. But look at Suzuka. There, Vettel was better tactically than Webber and Alonso was tactically better than Hülkenberg. The preserved their tires better and were able to do the lap times, when required. Others were not able.

[jonpollak]

Everything is cyclical..

hang in there.

Jp

[TomNokoe]

As a sport, Spain/Monaco/UK were absolutely horrific. The only thing that has saved a glimpse of excitement this year has been qualifying. The convergence in pace of RB and Merc hit a sweet spot just before the summer break and the build up to the crescendo of the last Q3 lap delivered time after time. I think we've had many great individual drives this year, but no great races. I have found myself much more interested in WEC, simply because I feel like a race in the WEC is a real event, something to get excited for, especially as there aren't many of them, compared to the saturation of F1 nowadays.

[vista]

Exactly the same concerns Mark Webber had when he spoke in Top Gear. From a driver's point of view, it must be very frustrating not being able to drive 100 % and conserve tyres.

[paulrobs]

I wonder, why some guys are better in this game, than others. Assuming your are right, there would be no difference between the drivers. But look at Suzuka. There, Vettel was better tactically than Webber and Alonso was tactically better than Hülkenberg. The preserved their tires better and were able to do the lap times, when required. Others were not able.

 

Probably down to driving style, car setup and how good the basic car is I would think. We know that some cars are harder on tyres than others and we know that some drivers are harder on tyres than other drivers - from what we continuously hear from teams, drivers and expert pundits who work within F1. Then there are the changes of temperature over a weekend such that the long practice runs they do in practice to determine race pace and tyre degredation bcome meaningless because cars fare worse or better during the race. Teams also seem to find it hard to deviate from pre-planned strategies when race pace is worse than the pre-planned strategies dictated because tyres degrade faster during the race. I can see why they get themselves into this situation, I think it's down to no-one having confidence in the tyres and becomming over-reliant upon computer simulations and pre-planned strategies. It goes the other way too, sometimes cars fare better during the race and the teams find they could have driven harder on a set of tyres then they did. Of course, if you're Red Bull and you have a much faster car you have a much wider window in which to operate and you can go faster than other cars for the same amount of tyre wear - not a brilliant metric I know but it figures. All in all though, quite a lottery and not what I really want to watch. Regarding the bits in bold - that's just not want I want to see, I want to see drivers racing on tyres that are fit for the puyrpose of allowing an F1 car to go as quickly as it is possible to for at least a reasonable amount of time in a race. I don't want to see a high speed chess match played out over endless race simulations, pre-planned strategies, endless pitwall instructions and drivers who are told what laptime they should do for large parts of an F1 GP.

[paulrobs]

Some good posts here and yes I agree that things may get better but this year in particular has kind of killed it for me and my enjoyment, enthusiasm, excitement and anticipation just isn't there any more. I'll still watch but not live, only highlights or recorded races with my hand always hovering over the fast-forward button. I'll be off visiting another race circuit or museum or doing other stuff with the family (like I should be doing now!). My fear is that next year will be even worse because Mr Hembrey will conclude that the teams eventually got on top of the tyres during 2013 so the 2014 tyres will be designed to suffer even more tyre degredation and the race fuel load restrictions will force engines to be tuned more for economy rather than power.

 

It's not something that hits you after one dull race or one race where your star driver/team doesn't win, it's just a dawning realisation, which gets stronger and stronger eah race you watch, that you aren't enjoying it anything lke you used to and you start to question what the hell you're doing wasting 5-6 hours over a weekend watching something that isn't much fun any more.

 

Oh yes, no more lockups too because these cause exploding tyres. And yet the reason the tyres are locking up is that the tyres just don't have enough grip. Very soon we'll have to consider less powerful brakes so that the tyres don't lock up or perhaps brake much earlier into a corner with less braking force. Maybe even go back to steel brake disks. Paul Hembrey will see through this though and he'll react by producing tyres that will only do an out lap, a fast lap and an in lap and we'll have endless press releases about how great Pirelli is for the show and how they're doing what they've been asked to do and do we really want to go back to those horrible Bridgestone days, etc, etc. Then Sam Michael will get really excited about shaving 0.3s off each pitstop because 0.3s x 20 pitsops makes Jenson and Checo a whole six seconds faster over a race distance.

 

The pinnacle of motorsport then.... My ******* arse it is.

Edited by paulrobs, 18 October 2013 - 20:01.

[paulrobs]

As a sport, Spain/Monaco/UK were absolutely horrific. The only thing that has saved a glimpse of excitement this year has been qualifying. The convergence in pace of RB and Merc hit a sweet spot just before the summer break and the build up to the crescendo of the last Q3 lap delivered time after time. I think we've had many great individual drives this year, but no great races. I have found myself much more interested in WEC, simply because I feel like a race in the WEC is a real event, something to get excited for, especially as there aren't many of them, compared to the saturation of F1 nowadays.

 

Yes, I'll be looking more in that direction too

[paulrobs]

Exactly the same concerns Mark Webber had when he spoke in Top Gear. From a driver's point of view, it must be very frustrating not being able to drive 100 % and conserve tyres.

 

I'm probably going to keep a close eye on his efforts for Porsche next year. I like it when he speaks what the other drivers are thinking but won't say. Some will say that he's just saying it because he's leaving and isn't winning but I like to think he has a point and something should change before the sport becomes a joke.

Edited by paulrobs, 18 October 2013 - 19:55.

[andrewr]

I've been an avid F1 fan since 1973 and I'm pretty much of the same opinion. This is the first year I have thought about why I'm still watching every race. The coaching of drivers all the way through a race is particularly annoying to me, and to some drivers it seems (Kimi: "Leave me alone. I know what I'm doing" LOL). Having said that, i haven't given up just yet. Addiction is a strong thing.

[paulrobs]

I've been an avid F1 fan since 1973 and I'm pretty much of the same opinion. This is the first year I have thought about why I'm still watching every race. The coaching of drivers all the way through a race is particularly annoying to me, and to some drivers it seems (Kimi: "Leave me alone. I know what I'm doing" LOL). Having said that, i haven't given up just yet. Addiction is a strong thing.

 

Yes, it has been for me for a long time but sadly I think I'm now cured of mine

[Longtimefan]

I find this whole pre-occupation with spicing up the show, by deliberately contracting Pirelli to deliver sub-optimal tyres that do not last and do not allow an F1 car to go anywhere near as quick as it could do in a race, to be nothing short of a disaster for me. I think I can probably add DRS, KERS and a pre-occupation with green issues to this too. I think if I'm honest that Red Bull's domination is also a factor - clearly Adrian Newey is a genius and Sebastian Vettel is doing a fantastic job - but I've found the races since the summer break to be especially boring and crap really. I detest the constant driving at the limits of the tyres rather than driving at the limit of the cars, drivers and tracks. I know tyres always go off but my point is that they have been deliberately designed to go off to spice up the show rather than going off through normal degredation through a race. I can't recall a supplier ever being told to deliver an inferior product to create uncertainty and unpredictability. Bear in mind that today's 2.4 litre V8s have nothing like the torque of past turbos, V12s and V10s, and yet they still spin up the rear tyres as easy as anything. They are ridiculous and I constantly wonder why a fine company like Pirelli ever agreed to enter F1 to design and deliver crap tyres.

 

I agree with most of what you said but this paragraph particularly rings true with me!

 

Current F1 is a joke, a shambles and almost an insult to the history of F1.

 

I don't blame Vettel or Newey, I blame the FIA, Bernie and Pirelli!

[Watkins74]

I hate thread titles that don't describe the topic.

 

/rant

[paulrobs]

I hate thread titles that don't describe the topic.

 

/rant

 

Hate is a pretty strong word for a title that doesn't describe the topic. Irritated maybe, frustrated possible but hate? Wow

[midgrid]

 

My fear is that next year will be even worse because Mr Hembrey will conclude that the teams eventually got on top of the tyres during 2013 so the 2014 tyres will be designed to suffer even more tyre degredation and the race fuel load restrictions will force engines to be tuned more for economy rather than power.

 

 

Happily for you, this fear is unfounded, as Hembery himself has said that the tyres for 2014 will be more conservative, and also less of an overall factor in terms of being a talking point.

[bourbon]

I really do try to sympathize with those who write these threads, but it is difficult because I have been excited for every race since I was 5 years old and continue to be. 

 

Then again, I am never bored watching sports that I like.  F1, supercross, motorcross, Football, futbol, hockey...

 

So maybe it is unique to me and I am a genuine sports freak for those sports I enjoy...

[paulrobs]

 

 

 

Happily for you, this fear is unfounded, as Hembery himself has said that the tyres for 2014 will be more conservative, and also less of an overall factor in terms of being a talking point.

 

 

Yes, heard this said. I'd prefer them not to meddle at all, I'd prefer tyres to be black round things that everyone uses but hardly anyone mentions beyond my tyres went off a bit towards the end of the stint or end of the race.

[pacwest]

Everything is cyclical..

hang in there.

Jp

I've tried man. I really have. The Schumacher and Vettel years have had some good racing but the great driver and team rivalries aren't there. McLaren and Ferrari heated up for a bit then poof.

 

I've skipped a couple races this year mostly because I have to download them (no cable and PST time zone) and well.... I gotta agree that it's a snoozer most of the time. which make s amediocre race just feel fantastic.

 

I want cars going off. Engines blowing, people punting guys off. You can get a grid penalty for giving the finger these days.

[jonpollak]

Y'all are a prime candidate for IndyCar.
Which, BTW, has been the best racing to watch for a few years now.
Jp

[SpartanChas]

I still think the races are worth watching. Despite vettels runaway win in Korea there was some good action going on. I watched a decent amount of 24 LM this year for the first time and thought it was great, almost wondered how i was going to get excited about going to Silverstone a few weeks after. Did that and Monza this year anyway, and I just don't believe I'll ever get bored of being there at a Grand Prix.

Out of interest, IndyCar is still only on ESPN UK and badly covered isn't it? I want to watch a few of those races and try to gett a feel for it. I imagine you can stream it too because I'm definitely not getting ESPN. If SkySports F1 became a Motorsport channel and they got indycar, nascar sprint cup and some other series that would be great.

[andrewr]

Y'all are a prime candidate for IndyCar.
Which, BTW, has been the best racing to watch for a few years now.
Jp

 

You may be right. Used to watch it when free-to-air TV covered it back in the days of Greg Moore (great driver), but all we get of US racing series  in Oz now is Grand Am (which I watch) and the Kyle Busch love fest (which I just can't get into).

[ensign14]

It's at least better than it was in the FIArrari era, when F1 was more rigged than the 1966 Monte Carlo Rally.  The problem is that back in the 80s when a team was dominant they tended to let their drivers have at it.  Ferrari in the early 2000s and Red Bull now have deliberately and pre-meditatedly stopped that from happening.  I've already pointed out the obvious solution to help solve that, namely only have the second car counting for WCC points, but that would upset the personality-driven storylines peddled for the Great Unwashed.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Under your system the WCC points would currently be Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lotus.

[ensign14]

Under your system the WCC points would currently be Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lotus.

 

I can't be bothered to do the maths, as it's gone midnight and I've been knocking back the Penderyn, but you wouldn't use the 25-17 system for a race with maximum 11 finishers.  Better to go with the 10-6 (or at least the 9-6) and you'd award points according to where the second car finished in relation to other second cars.  So this season Ferrari would get 10 for the first race as Massa was the first B-team driver home, RB would get 6, Force India 4, Lotus 3, McLaren 2 and Marussia 1 (which already proves my system is far more fun).  An alternative is to add the times of the two cars together, lowest 'wins'.

 

Besides which if teams actually had to bother about their second drivers Ferrari would have ditched Massa 18 months ago.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I just gave drivers their actual points rather than in-class. 

[alpinesmuggler]

"I can't recall a supplier ever being told to deliver an inferior product to create uncertainty and unpredictability."

 

This times twenty. I guess I've been browbeat into accepting DRS and KERS; it's Formula Aero after all. But when a sport has to introduce variables that are sub-optimal by design in order to spice things up, you know something's terribly wrong. Is it really the pinnacle of motorsport when tires last fewer laps than the same manufacturer's consumer products on a track day? Come on, where's the fun in that?

 

And don't get me started on processions. F1 has always had them, at least since the mid-80s, when I started watching. There's most always been a dominant car/driver combination, but you could tell they were pushing hard, you could tell there was immense human and engineering effort put into setting up a "procession." Nowadays? Same processional races, with the only difference that some fans are salivating at tire choice, cheering for the right delta, the right call from the pits, the right race management that starts all the way at quali. "Oh, let's save a set of shitty tires for the race! After all, we only have two compounds to race with, and we must use both of them." How very clever, let's make it into Q3 and not run a timed lap because it will offer us a strategic advantage in the race. GTFO, it's racing, not chess.

 

I'm an old and grumpy fan and I want to be properly entertained.

 

I bet some of you are soccer fans. What if both teams could only use one ball throughout the game and there were only so many kicks that ball could sustain before bursting? Would that be enjoyable? What if the teams had to play with one ball in the first half and another, entirely different, in the second? I'm sure it could create amazing strategies, but would it be fun?

 

And here's the deal, and where I totally agree with the OP, F1 is just not that much fun anymore. We (sorry for generalizing, I'm really speaking for myself) use sports as an escapist few hours a week where we can forget about the daily grind. Brave men at the peak of their ability doing crazy **** on the track, on the pitch, the field, wherever. Let's at least give them the equipment and loose rules so that they can entertain us.

[paulrobs]

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Pirelli's pre-race press release taken from Autosort's News section with some items called out in bold by me:

 

"We've decided to go for the P Zero White medium and P Zero Yellow soft tyres in India this year, which we think will be the best combination for the Buddh circuit and lead to closer racing (#1). For the last two years running we've actually gone for the hard and soft compounds, which might have been slightly on the conservative side, so this year we've gone for a softer and slightly more aggressive choice.

 

As a result, just like the last race in Japan, we're not expecting to see a particularly big variation in lap times between the two compounds. Consequently, the strategy made a very big difference in Japan and this should be the same in India. We only had one pit stop per car in India last year, but this year we would expect two - which also provides the drivers and teams with more opportunities to make up places (#2)

 

With varying elevations and a wide variety of corners India provides the tyres with quite a test, as there are forces coming from all directions, so tyre management will once again prove to be important (#3). As usual, it should be very warm in India, which increases thermal degradation as well. This looks set to be a decisive race for the championship so we hope that our tyre choice will help to make it a memorable contest with high-quality racing (#4)."

 

#1 Here we go again, PIrelli choosing tyres to promote closer racing.

 

#2 We have shitty tyres, DRS and KERS all of which lead to more overtakes and yet we still seem to think we need to choose tyre compounds that will lead to more different strategies and more pitstops to allow drivers to make up places that way.

 

#3 Oh dear, tyre management, tyre management, tyre management and more tyre management. Correct me if I'm wrong, but elevation, corners and forces from all directions are all part of what a race tyre has to cope with.

 

#4 WTF. Pirelli will make the Indian GP a memorable contest with high quality racing.

 

Probably sounds like I'm picking on Pirelli but this press release just says it all for me. F1 is nothing more than a motorsport entertainment show run to an ever more stringent set of rules and constraints to maniuplate the end result in the most entertaining way. It is certainly not a race and most certainly not the pinnacle of motorsport. It causes me a lot of upset and heart-ache, I loved the sport and I'm finding it hard to let go but let go I must because it offends me, big time, it really does.

Edited by paulrobs, 22 October 2013 - 11:14.

[paulrobs]

"I can't recall a supplier ever being told to deliver an inferior product to create uncertainty and unpredictability."

 

This times twenty. I guess I've been browbeat into accepting DRS and KERS; it's Formula Aero after all. But when a sport has to introduce variables that are sub-optimal by design in order to spice things up, you know something's terribly wrong. Is it really the pinnacle of motorsport when tires last fewer laps than the same manufacturer's consumer products on a track day? Come on, where's the fun in that?

 

And don't get me started on processions. F1 has always had them, at least since the mid-80s, when I started watching. There's most always been a dominant car/driver combination, but you could tell they were pushing hard, you could tell there was immense human and engineering effort put into setting up a "procession." Nowadays? Same processional races, with the only difference that some fans are salivating at tire choice, cheering for the right delta, the right call from the pits, the right race management that starts all the way at quali. "Oh, let's save a set of shitty tires for the race! After all, we only have two compounds to race with, and we must use both of them." How very clever, let's make it into Q3 and not run a timed lap because it will offer us a strategic advantage in the race. GTFO, it's racing, not chess.

 

I'm an old and grumpy fan and I want to be properly entertained.

 

I bet some of you are soccer fans. What if both teams could only use one ball throughout the game and there were only so many kicks that ball could sustain before bursting? Would that be enjoyable? What if the teams had to play with one ball in the first half and another, entirely different, in the second? I'm sure it could create amazing strategies, but would it be fun?

 

And here's the deal, and where I totally agree with the OP, F1 is just not that much fun anymore. We (sorry for generalizing, I'm really speaking for myself) use sports as an escapist few hours a week where we can forget about the daily grind. Brave men at the peak of their ability doing crazy **** on the track, on the pitch, the field, wherever. Let's at least give them the equipment and loose rules so that they can entertain us.

 

I think I'm probably a grumpy old fan too! Glad to hear there are others like me too

[tommi34]

The regulations go worse and worse and in 5 years time Kimi, Alonso, Button have retired. Junior categories aren't producing as good talents. I van easily see F1 being like WRC nowadays very soon. Vettel = Loeb

[Jackmancer]

I've been watching F1 since 1995 and always watched qualifying as well, but this season I didn't bother, really. Also, I've missed a lot of races. Normally I'd errange all my appointments so I would never miss one, but this year, again, I didn't bother. Then when the race would be over I'd check the report on my smartphone, and often it was a boring race I missed, so I didn't feel bad about it.

[paulrobs]

I watched a recording of the Indian (not Japanese! Edited)  GP just after it started so I was only ever about 45 minutes behind the action. I didn't watch any qualifying or free practice, I just caught up on what had happened during the Friday and Saturday by reading the features and press releases on Autosport. I did record the qualfying just in case I wanted to watch it but I deleted it witholut watching. I cut my F1 viewing down to about 2 hours max that weekend and I didn't feel I missed anything. Seemed fine.

 

For last weekend's race I was away and didn't watch any live coverage or even close to live coverage. I caught some of the BBC qualifying highlights show on Saturday evening - enjoyed it and was struck by how much better Ben Edwards is than Croft. I steered clear of the race and results on Sunday until I got home. I then watched the race on Sky+ at around 7pm. I watched none of the pre-race stuff and just watched the race with finger hovering over the fast-forward button to miss the seemingly endless race start re-runs and also the parts of the race where nothing much was happening and, especially, the annoying cuts to the many pitstops. Seemed ok again.

 

It felt surprisingly good not to have wasted many many hours over a couple of weekends watching something that doesn't give me anywhere near the enjoyment it used to. I may well get the bug again over the winter as the anticipation grows towards the start of next season but I'm finding it ok at the moment and surprisingly liberating to not be arranging my weekends around live F1 coverage.

 

Oh yes, I've got my marshall taster day booked for early next year too. Should be interesting and fun!

Edited by paulrobs, 05 November 2013 - 15:08.

[FredF1]

The BBC's evening highlights coverage suits me perfectly. The evening showing is just right for a sit down and relaxation before dinner and the editing means umpteen dull laps of nothing happening/safety car periods get removed. Win. Thanks to multi-channel tv (all the news/sports channels are in an easily avoided subsection) and avoiding certain parts of the internets, not knowing the result beforehand is a piece of cake.

[Cyanide]

2010 and 2012 (first half) were pretty good seasons. 2011 also had quite a few memorable races but this year has got to be one of the worst in a while. Not just because Vettel is dominating more than in 2011, but because there's no genuine and interesting racing happening. DRS makes overtaking incredibly artificial and robotic - get rid of it. I can't remember a single race I enjoyed this season, they were all pretty mediocre. This last weekend in Abu Dhabi was particularly bad. Like scary bad, in the sense that it lead me to think "Why am I even watching this?". 

 

Having said that, I am hopeful for at least Sao Paolo to provide some better action. 

Edited by Cyanide, 05 November 2013 - 11:14.

[Jackmancer]

If only Bernie could get Vettel to switch teams...

[ensign14]

If only Bernie could get Vettel to switch teams...

 

He doesn't need to.  He needs to get Hamalonso into a Red Bull.

[Mox]

For me, it's not so much the tools (tyres, DRS, KERS, etc) as it is the implementation.

Back in the day, Formula 3000 ran races without being allowed to change tyres. The tyres would last the entire race, but it wouldn't be able to run at full speed the entire race, so the DRIVERS had to decide, WHEN to push and when to ease off and conserve rubber. Some drivers would choose to attack in the opening phase of the race, trying to either create a gap if starting up front, or make up places fast, if starting from further back, while others would drive a clean line in the beginning, only to be able to attack later in the race. 
This actually generated some really good racing, despite all drivers having equal opportunities. One race that springs to mind, was Spa '99, where Jason Watt attacked hard from the start, and created a good gap, but as his tyres slowly went, Gonzalo Rodriguez started to reel him back in, and the last couple of laps, Watt was defending ferociously on tyres with no grip at all, against the onslaught of Rodriguez. Brilliant stuff.

In modern F1, we still have tyre changes, but since we MUST start the race on the tyres used for qualifying, and we MUST use both compounds, the number of effective race strategies are minimal, and predictable. The result is that everybody runs basically the same strategy on the same shitty tyres, and since it does nothing for the racing, all we're left with, is the negative feeling about the tyres.

Instead, mix the tyres, so that different strategies are theoretically equally fast.
Prime + wear + stop 1 + Prime + wear should be equal in total time to

Prime + wear + stop 1 + Prime + wear + stop 2 + Option + wear and
Prime + wear + stop 1 + Option + wear + stop 2 + Option + wear 

 

Now let the cars qualify on whatever tyre they want and start the race on whatever tyre they want. BAM - equal tyres now a differentiator, not an equalizer.

The problem isn't the tyres going off, but the way tyre use is implemented.
 

 

The same goes for KERS. The "push-to-add-power" feature would well be implemented as a differentiator, but in F1 it isn't. In F1, every car, gets 6 seconds of the same amount of extra power, for the same amount of laps (every single one). So it becomes something the drivers use to improve the optimal lap time, instead of using it as a "push-to-pass" feature. And since the defending driver and the attacking driver have the exact same amount of KERS, it cancels itself out.

Instead, KERS should be implemented as a limited function that could only be used for a limited amount of time on a limited number of laps,
i.e.
Total boost over race distance: 80s,
Maximum number of uses per lap:1, 
Maximum time per use: 8s

Now the drivers would have to make choices as to WHEN to use it and HOW much to use every time, not knowing how much the opponent has left and how much he is willing to use.

Within rules that are the same for everybody, KERS would be a differentiator, instead of an equalizer. KERS isn't the problem, the implementation is.



DRS was implemented to make passing "safer" and easier (and to counter teams cheating with movable aero). Great, but passing is no longer "passing", but more like "drive-bys". Since you in most races have to go a full lap for the next DRS activation zone to appear, it basically takes away any chance of striking back and thus destroys any hint of "racing", reducing the defending driver to a sitting duck.
Make every braking zone an activation zone, and let the guys being passed have a fair chance of striking back in the next zone. You'll have passing and re-passing galore. Some might even call it "racing".

DRS is not the problem (Safe is good). The implementation stinks.


And since budget restrictions and testing bans already mean that F1 is not the ultimate technological advance in racing, why not go to simpler aero? Simpler wings, and more fixed aero parts, that can't be changed for ever race. That would make some teams stronger at some types of tracks, and other teams stronger at other types of tracks, and design optimizations would have to be done at a more generic level, pre-season. Rotate the calendar to include different tracks every year (Hockenheim/Nürburgring, Magny Cours/Paul Ricard, Monza/Imola etc.), and it will be difficult to "carry over" to next season. 

Equal opportunities, but implemented to differentiate.

[SenorSjon]

Why limit KERS? If a team wants to go all out with DuraCell or Varta, let them have a go at it and stick the car full with batteries for perhaps 20s boost. Or more hp boost. This everyone the same boost is making it boring.

[DanardiF1]

What modern F1 has lost is that chance on race day where a driver can go 'I'm taking this by the scruff of the neck' and go for it, closing down someone in front through better driving. To win nowadays basically all that is required to win a Grand Prix is get in front quickly and then let the others mess up each other's race because no-one wants to be stuck behind someone else who is saving their tyres, and thus you are burning up your own. Any issues at the start of the race, the point where you have the most time to overcome it, basically halt your race right there (see Button's last two races, both completely ruined by early incidents he had no chance to fight back from).

 

Each race is decided barring any major problems a few laps in... so what's the point of 55 laps? DRS enables all the fastest cars to get to the front quickly without any hiccups, so there's no chance for a stout defence of position by a driver of a slower car who is driving better than the driver of the other faster car. Tyres don't allow any individuality in terms of stint length, as they only last a set distance, so again the lap you can go to is for the most part (unless you're really crap on tyres) the lap your car can go to... it's inhibiting individualism.

[Seanspeed]

I don't really have a problem with any of it.  I think 2011 and 2012 were great seasons.  2013 has been partly spoiled because the tires early on were unsafe and a little too unpredictable and then because Red Bull has completely thrown out any hope for anybody else to even win a race. 

 

Sorry you don't enjoy it OP? 

[Seanspeed]

What modern F1 has lost is that chance on race day where a driver can go 'I'm taking this by the scruff of the neck' and go for it, closing down someone in front through better driving. To win nowadays basically all that is required to win a Grand Prix is get in front quickly and then let the others mess up each other's race because no-one wants to be stuck behind someone else who is saving their tyres, and thus you are burning up your own. Any issues at the start of the race, the point where you have the most time to overcome it, basically halt your race right there (see Button's last two races, both completely ruined by early incidents he had no chance to fight back from).

 

Each race is decided barring any major problems a few laps in... so what's the point of 55 laps? DRS enables all the fastest cars to get to the front quickly without any hiccups, so there's no chance for a stout defence of position by a driver of a slower car who is driving better than the driver of the other faster car. Tyres don't allow any individuality in terms of stint length, as they only last a set distance, so again the lap you can go to is for the most part (unless you're really crap on tyres) the lap your car can go to... it's inhibiting individualism.

You do realize that before, if a driver had an early incident and got caught behind slower cars, they were usually screwed even more, right?  

 

People romanticize the past, but apart from them pushing harder, the racing was far more predictable and boring. 

 

EDIT: Eh, I've heard these complaints a million times.  There's a thread mostly dedicated to this sort of thing where people say the same things over and over.  I'm not doing any different by posting what I am.  I've posted these same things quite a few times, too.  Time to just let people complain or leave and get on with enjoying myself.  I cant help miserable people.

Edited by Seanspeed, 05 November 2013 - 12:37.

[noikeee]

For me, it's not so much the tools (tyres, DRS, KERS, etc) as it is the implementation.

Back in the day, Formula 3000 ran races without being allowed to change tyres. The tyres would last the entire race, but it wouldn't be able to run at full speed the entire race, so the DRIVERS had to decide, WHEN to push and when to ease off and conserve rubber. Some drivers would choose to attack in the opening phase of the race, trying to either create a gap if starting up front, or make up places fast, if starting from further back, while others would drive a clean line in the beginning, only to be able to attack later in the race. 
This actually generated some really good racing, despite all drivers having equal opportunities. One race that springs to mind, was Spa '99, where Jason Watt attacked hard from the start, and created a good gap, but as his tyres slowly went, Gonzalo Rodriguez started to reel him back in, and the last couple of laps, Watt was defending ferociously on tyres with no grip at all, against the onslaught of Rodriguez. Brilliant stuff.

In modern F1, we still have tyre changes, but since we MUST start the race on the tyres used for qualifying, and we MUST use both compounds, the number of effective race strategies are minimal, and predictable. The result is that everybody runs basically the same strategy on the same shitty tyres, and since it does nothing for the racing, all we're left with, is the negative feeling about the tyres.

Instead, mix the tyres, so that different strategies are theoretically equally fast.
Prime + wear + stop 1 + Prime + wear should be equal in total time to

Prime + wear + stop 1 + Prime + wear + stop 2 + Option + wear and
Prime + wear + stop 1 + Option + wear + stop 2 + Option + wear 

 

Now let the cars qualify on whatever tyre they want and start the race on whatever tyre they want. BAM - equal tyres now a differentiator, not an equalizer.

The problem isn't the tyres going off, but the way tyre use is implemented.
 

 

The same goes for KERS. The "push-to-add-power" feature would well be implemented as a differentiator, but in F1 it isn't. In F1, every car, gets 6 seconds of the same amount of extra power, for the same amount of laps (every single one). So it becomes something the drivers use to improve the optimal lap time, instead of using it as a "push-to-pass" feature. And since the defending driver and the attacking driver have the exact same amount of KERS, it cancels itself out.

Instead, KERS should be implemented as a limited function that could only be used for a limited amount of time on a limited number of laps,
i.e.
Total boost over race distance: 80s,
Maximum number of uses per lap:1, 
Maximum time per use: 8s

Now the drivers would have to make choices as to WHEN to use it and HOW much to use every time, not knowing how much the opponent has left and how much he is willing to use.

Within rules that are the same for everybody, KERS would be a differentiator, instead of an equalizer. KERS isn't the problem, the implementation is.



DRS was implemented to make passing "safer" and easier (and to counter teams cheating with movable aero). Great, but passing is no longer "passing", but more like "drive-bys". Since you in most races have to go a full lap for the next DRS activation zone to appear, it basically takes away any chance of striking back and thus destroys any hint of "racing", reducing the defending driver to a sitting duck.
Make every braking zone an activation zone, and let the guys being passed have a fair chance of striking back in the next zone. You'll have passing and re-passing galore. Some might even call it "racing".

DRS is not the problem (Safe is good). The implementation stinks.


And since budget restrictions and testing bans already mean that F1 is not the ultimate technological advance in racing, why not go to simpler aero? Simpler wings, and more fixed aero parts, that can't be changed for ever race. That would make some teams stronger at some types of tracks, and other teams stronger at other types of tracks, and design optimizations would have to be done at a more generic level, pre-season. Rotate the calendar to include different tracks every year (Hockenheim/Nürburgring, Magny Cours/Paul Ricard, Monza/Imola etc.), and it will be difficult to "carry over" to next season. 

Equal opportunities, but implemented to differentiate.

 

This is actually a really good post. The choice of tyres thing is crucial, I don't understand why they have stuck with those contrived rules for so long.

 

Not sure I agree with the KERS thing, it's the only high-tech ground-breaking thing about this era of cars so I think they should just open it up for development as much as they can. If a team can get a KERS unit that gives you 100HP and never runs out, whereas the other team cannot make it to be in use all the time, they should be allowed to. I don't think the KERS should be a push-to-pass like it is, at all.

 

About DRS... I remember when I posted here in the forums 1 year before DRS came into F1, proposing a system just like DRS, my system wouldn't be based on designated activation zones at all but on some sort of proximity sensor to other cars. The way they've made DRS it makes certain zones on the track designated passing zones where the cars have sudden massive advantages, then over the rest of a lap they have no chance. I understand the system is more reliable this way, but it makes for slightly contrived racing - a "freer" system where the car behind can use DRS all over the lap and isn't restricted to Mario Kart-like turbo zones sounds far better to me.

 

I also think they made DRS far too powerful, they should tone down the wing angle they are allowed to open. DRS should be about giving the car behind a CHANCE to pass - which didn't happen before with the dirty air phenomenon. It shouldn't be an AUTOMATIC pass. Basically, before DRS, track position was king and all you should aim for, meaning your raw pace didn't matter at all if you were behind another car. Nowadays, track position is meaningless and sometimes drivers don't even bother to defend. There is a happy balance somewhere in the middle of it.

 

DRS should be a small, constant, slipstreaming boost to counter the dirty air effect, not a sudden massive super charge given once per lap.

[paulrobs]

I don't really have a problem with any of it.  I think 2011 and 2012 were great seasons.  2013 has been partly spoiled because the tires early on were unsafe and a little too unpredictable and then because Red Bull has completely thrown out any hope for anybody else to even win a race. 

 

Sorry you don't enjoy it OP? 

 

Guess not, nowhere near as much as before that's for sure. Like I said I might get the bug again over the winter but this year, and especially since the break, just hasn't done it for me. Feeling quite liberated now. I suspect there are a lot out there watching F1 because they've always watched F1 but maybe not enjoying it as much any more. As I'm sure there are plenty still enjoying it and plenty more coming to F1 for the first time.

[Jimisgod]

I haven't watched a moment since the Belgian GP.

Hell, the silly season for 2014 is more interesting than watching Seb complete several dozen victory laps on a different tracks.

The post-moan, non-cheese tyres have so completely destroyed the season I'm acting as if the next F1 race will be in March 2014.

[onemoresolo]

This season has been pretty stale for the second half, but the whole field has been pretty predictable. Only 8 different podium drivers so far and that looks unlikely to change.

 

Last season we had 13 - over half the field. There certainly hasn't been the same level of competition this time around.

[tomjol]

I really struggle with any argument about "spicing up the show". That's exactly what most of the technical regulations are there to do, otherwise there would be huge gaps between the cars, and no excitement whatsoever on a race weekend.

 

There is a formula, you have to turn that formula into lap time, and the tyres are part of it. This is what F1 is, by definition.

[ebc]

F1 is much better now than it was even 5 years ago.  The racing is better, the drivers are better and we have a new rule shake up next season that could change everything.

 

I think people romanticise the past and are now looking for things to complain about.  On Sunday I read complaints about Vettels donuts, just a couple of weeks ago people were complaining about Toro Rosso signing Kyvat saying he was another pay driver when they knew nothing about him, last season they were complaining about random winners and 5 years ago they were complaining about no overtaking.

 

F1 is not perfect, I don't like DRS either but it is better than no overtaking at all, I don't like V6 engines and I wish they could race on some of the old classic tracks, like Hockenheim I don't know what they were thinking destroying that place.  But overall it is better than ever, we have never had such a strong field of drivers before, even pay drivers are better such as Maldonado who has won the GP2 title and a Grand Prix, 2 of the last 4 championships have been classics and we have better coverage than ever before  The season up until Hungary was really good, since then Vettel has won all the races but stuff like that happens in all sport from time to time, just sometimes someone is better than the rest, you just have to put up with it for a while. 

 

I think that next year will be the dawn of a new golden era of F1, Kimi and Alonso at Ferrari is going to be great, the V6 formula will skake up the grid, McLaren will hopefully get their act together.  Merc I think will have an advantage, and I think 2014 could be title number 2 for Hamilton if he can see off Rosberg but even that is not a sure thing by any means.  I am really impressed with Kyvat and fully expect him to beat Vergne and hopefully Hulkenberg can get himself into the Lotus and win some races.  I can't wait for next year and still love F1 as much as ever.