352 replies to this topic

[Lazy]

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/130775.html

1kg of weight equates to about 0.035secs a lap on an average circuit. so, for example, Sebastain Vettel (65kg) will be 0.35s faster on a lap than Mark Webber (75kg) all other things being equal

A taller driver is at a disadvantage because his weight is high up in the car

 

 

Clearly the weight difference will be made up with ballast but how much of an advantage is gained by being able to put that ballast where you want?

 

How much is gained from the lower COG?

 

Is it a coincidence that the 3 perceived top guys in F1, Fred, Seb, and Lewis, are all tiny?

 

With next years weight limit, will some drivers be forced to race a few kg's over that limit?

Edited by Lazy, 20 October 2013 - 07:39.

[muramasa]

it depends on where those extra ballasts go. For example, 2008 or 09 season, GP2 changed the position of the weight-offset ballast to front part of of monocoque, which in turn worked significantly disadvantageous to lighter drivers.

[Lazy]

They pretty much have a free hand in F1 I believe.

[SpaMaster]

It is definitely a problem. This insanity has been going on for way too long. Increase the minimum weight that specifically accounts for the driver's weight. To avoid the CoG difference, mandate a higher weight that would account for drivers and let this be required to be distributed by the body/height contours of the driver.

[Kingshark]

0.350 seconds of difference between Vettel and Webber based on weight alone? 

 

They need to sort this crap out, it's incredibly unfair how larger drivers are being disadvantaged. 

[RosannaG]

0.350 seconds of difference between Vettel and Webber based on weight alone? 

 

They need to sort this crap out, it's incredibly unfair how larger drivers are being disadvantaged. 

 

0,035 seconds. Fixed. 

[Zava]

0.350 seconds of difference between Vettel and Webber based on weight alone? 

 

They need to sort this crap out, it's incredibly unfair how larger drivers are being disadvantaged. 

don't tell us you've fell for that bull$hit... the author of the article obviously never heard of minimum weights, so he/she thought that if driver A is 10 kg lighter than dirver B, then he + his car is 10 kg lighter than driver B + the same kind of car.

[trogggy]

0,035 seconds. Fixed. 

per kg.

 

 

Formula 1.  The best teeny-tiny drivers in the world. 

[Jovanotti]

don't tell us you've fell for that bull$hit... the author of the article obviously never heard of minimum weights, so he/she thought that if driver A is 10 kg lighter than dirver B, then he + his car is 10 kg lighter than driver B + the same kind of car.

Exactly, these numbers are BS. For example 10kg of fuel around Suzuka result in 0.4s time penalty (http://www.f1fanatic...-circuit-japan/). This is however 10kg added weight, there's no way that 10kg differently distributed weight results in almost the same time deficit.

 

Sure there's some disadvantage for heavier drivers, but guess what, that's life. A 1,60m guy can't compete with Usain Bolt, or a tall, well trained 90kg man won't stand a chance to win an Olympic Marathon. Where's the fairness in that? Everybody has different limits and possibilities.

Edited by Jovanotti, 20 October 2013 - 08:29.

[trogggy]

don't tell us you've fell for that bull$hit... the author of the article obviously never heard of minimum weights, so he/she thought that if driver A is 10 kg lighter than dirver B, then he + his car is 10 kg lighter than driver B + the same kind of car.

Probably.  There's still a genuine issue with bigger drivers being disadvantaged, though, no?

[Lazy]

I think it's clear to most (even the author of the article) that the weight difference will be made up with ballast, the question is how much can you gain by placing that ballast in the optimal position. The fact that teams seem to be worried about the heavy drivers suggests that there are significant gains.

 

Maybe in some sports these are unavoidable, but if something can be done to level the playing field then surely they should be.

 

Maybe a fixed position for the ballast at a certain height in the cockpit for example.

[apoka]

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/130775.html

 

Clearly the weight difference will be made up with ballast but how much of an advantage is gained by being able to put that ballast where you want?

 

The quote in the article is quite misleading. If 0.35s is the gain you get from 10kg added weight, then a different distribution of the same weight should give a only a small fraction of that advantage. It would still be interesting how much.

 

What I am wondering about is whether this problem will sort itself out. The minimum weight increases by 48kg next year and maybe engines etc. will become lighter over time when they are refined.

 

It would also be interesting how much extra weight for balancing the car they will have next year. The advantage you gain is certainly not linear. This means they could just increase the minimum weight even more and any advantage of lighter drivers would become negligible.

[RosannaG]

per kg.

 

 

Formula 1.  The best teeny-tiny drivers in the world. 

 

  Thanks!

[Lazy]

The quote in the article is quite misleading. If 0.35s is the gain you get from 10kg added weight, then a different distribution of the same weight should give a only a small fraction of that advantage. It would still be interesting how much.

 

Given the sensitivity to set up in modern F1, getting the weight where you want it could give you a very significant fraction eg. 50% or so. You could easily be looking at a tenth or 2.

[Kalmake]

Next year minimum weights are: 690kg total, 314kg front, 369kg rear. That leaves 7kg to play with.

 

Engine has minimum weight of it's own and also minimum height for its CoG. All engines are probably on those limits from the get-go.

[Kelateboy]

The mandatory fixed weight distribution has been in place since 2011, ie. since the introduction of Pirelli tyres. FIA fixed the weight distribution to ensure that no team strikes lucky and stumbles upon the perfect set-up for the as-yet-unknown Pirelli rubber (thus potentially prompting others into costly wheelbase changes). During the qualifying session a car on dry tyres can't weigh less than 343kg at the back and 292kg at the front. As such, the extra ballast would have to placed to ensure that the weight distribution is met. There is however no limitation on how low you could affect the CoG.

 

David Coulthard's car was once found to have used a ballast on the front wing. This discovery was made after he was involved in an accident.

 

Please refer to an excellent webpage discussing about ballast from one of our contributors here - Kiril Varbanov.

 

http://f1framework.b...last-in-f1.html

[P123]

 

 

With next years weight limit, will some drivers be forced to race a few kg's over that limit?

 

Yes.  It's not much of an issue at the moment where the teams have available weight/ ballast to play with in order to reach the minimum weight, but from next year a lot of the teams are already saying they will struggle to meet the minimum weight, so a heavier driver will be at a disadvantage.  If they do the common sense thing and raise the min. weight then it won't be such a problem.

 

I'm sure the likes of JB and MW have a slight COG disadvantage to their more diminutive teammates, but it's not as if they are giants themselves, or that all their additional weight is contained above their necks.

[Jackmancer]

Could they just add another 20 kilo to the weight limit for next year, or is it too late for that?

[dau]

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/130775.html

 

Clearly the weight difference will be made up with ballast but how much of an advantage is gained by being able to put that ballast where you want?

 

How much is gained from the lower COG?

 

Is it a coincidence that the 3 perceived top guys in F1, Fred, Seb, and Lewis, are all tiny?

 

With next years weight limit, will some drivers be forced to race a few kg's over that limit?

 

Tiny? Vettel is 1.76m, Fred 1.71m, Lewis 1.75m, according to ESPN. The average male height in Germany/Spain/England is around 1.77m. So apart from Alonso, they're average, not 'tiny'.

 

It has already been said that the article is BS. At least the part about a kg being worth 0.035s a lap on average. And all the author would've needed to realize that is a look at the teammate battles. Does Massa have a 3 tenth advantage on Alonso? Is Grosjean really that good that he can make up the 3 tenths he loses to Kimi due to his weight? Is Perez that bad that he can't even make use of the 3 tenths he should have over Button?

 

And what's with that namedropping at the end of the article? Sure, Godin de Beaufort raced in F1. At the back. Trailing his lighter teammate. So what exactly has changed?

[Shiroo]

just put the minimal to 750kg for god's sake.

I wish to see athletes in F1 not kiddo looking like 30 year old peps.

Edited by Shiroo, 20 October 2013 - 10:44.

[Jackmancer]

It has already been said that the article is BS. At least the part about a kg being worth 0.035s a lap on average. And all the author would've needed to realize that is a look at the teammate battles. Does Massa have a 3 tenth advantage on Alonso? Is Grosjean really that good that he can make up the 3 tenths he loses to Kimi due to his weight? Is Perez that bad that he can't even make use of the 3 tenths he should have over Button?

 

 

 

I was wondering that too; on what the 0.035s a lap was based on. And even if it's so, it'll be exponentially decreasing (or whats the word). Otherwise, they might just put a three-year old, weighing 15k in the car. That'd mean he'll be 1.855s a lap faster than Alonso!

[scheivlak]

Probably.  There's still a genuine issue with bigger drivers being disadvantaged, though, no?

Hardly. It's overhyped beyond sanity.

[Lazy]

The mandatory fixed weight distribution has been in place since 2011, ie. since the introduction of Pirelli tyres. FIA fixed the weight distribution to ensure that no team strikes lucky and stumbles upon the perfect set-up for the as-yet-unknown Pirelli rubber (thus potentially prompting others into costly wheelbase changes). During the qualifying session a car on dry tyres can't weigh less than 343kg at the back and 292kg at the front. As such, the extra ballast would have to placed to ensure that the weight distribution is met. There is however no limitation on how low you could affect the CoG.

 

David Coulthard's car was once found to have used a ballast on the front wing. This discovery was made after he was involved in an accident.

 

Please refer to an excellent webpage discussing about ballast from one of our contributors here - Kiril Varbanov.

 

http://f1framework.b...last-in-f1.html

As I understand it they still have 7kgish to play with which is roughly the same as the difference between Vet and Web.

[Lazy]

Hardly. It's overhyped beyond sanity.

Quite a few drivers, ex-drivers, tp's etc seem to think that it's a significant issue.

[Kelateboy]

The minimum weight of the car in 2013 is 642kg vs 690kg in 2014 - an increase of 48kg.

 

The minimum engine weight in 2013 is 95kg. The minimum power unit weight in 2014 is 145kg - an increase of 50 kg.

 

According to formula1.com website, the typical weight of KERS unit in 2013 is 35kg.

 

I fail to see how the teams would struggle to meet 690kg limit next year, unless the FIA gets the minimum weight of power unit for next year at 145kg to be absolutely wrong.

[P123]

Quite a few drivers, ex-drivers, tp's etc seem to think that it's a significant issue.

 

For next season.

[SpeedRacer`]

Why can't the FIA step in here? This should never have been left to the teams

[Lazy]

Mark Webber, who is 182cm tall and weighs around 75kg, said he "hadn't eaten for the the last five years" adding that his minimum weight had been "too low for ages as the perfect driver weight is now 60-65kg".

 

The supremely fit Jenson Button - who weights about 74kg - admitted he struggled to meet the weight limit and had done for the last three years. "I love fitness training but there are things I can't do because I have to be a set weight - not eat carbohydrates, not build muscle. And next year it will be worse. I don't think any team will have ballast next year."

For next season.

For some it is a significant issue already, next season will just make it worse.

[Njack]

Given the sensitivity to set up in modern F1, getting the weight where you want it could give you a very significant fraction eg. 50% or so. You could easily be looking at a tenth or 2.

 

For 2010, Sutil said "Seven kilograms makes only about a tenth difference" http://en.espnf1.com...tory/14861.html

 

For 2013, James Allen " No because they build the cars underweight and then get to the minimum weight with the driver plus ballast

Vettel has a small advantage from being able to run the ballast lower but how much is hard to quantify, maybe 1/10th or just under"

 

http://www.jamesalle...-will-play-out/ Reply to post #18 regarding Vettel and Webber.

Edited by Njack, 20 October 2013 - 11:45.

[radio3]

I think it would be beneficial to F1 commercially if they would do something to offset the advantages of being a shrimp.  For example, the USA is a huge untapped market.  But I don't see any way that the US public will take people like Massa and Alonso seriously as athletes.  They're just too small.  It's somewhat like horse racing.  If someone was the greatest jockey in the history of the world by miles, no one would really take them seriously anyway.

 

Call it superficial if you want, but I would like to see F1 drivers be admired the way people like Beckham, Ronaldo, Bale, etc are.  These guys do underwear ads, are known by every woman in the worlds, etc.  That'll never happen for F1.  F1 drivers are shrimps.  The only ones who are not shrimps are not as successful.  It's a waste when it's something that could be so easily fixed by changing the requirements on wear ballast is placed.

[radio3]

For 2010, Sutil said "Seven kilograms makes only about a tenth difference" http://en.espnf1.com...tory/14861.html

 

For 2013, James Allen " No because they build the cars underweight and then get to the minimum weight with the driver plus ballast

Vettel has a small advantage from being able to run the ballast lower but how much is hard to quantify, maybe 1/10th or just under"

 

http://www.jamesalle...-will-play-out/ Reply to post #18 regarding Vettel and Webber.

 

1/10th is a huge advantage, needless to say!

[Lazy]

For 2010, Sutil said "Seven kilograms makes only about a tenth difference" http://en.espnf1.com...tory/14861.html

 

For 2013, James Allen " No because they build the cars underweight and then get to the minimum weight with the driver plus ballast

Vettel has a small advantage from being able to run the ballast lower but how much is hard to quantify, maybe 1/10th or just under"

 

http://www.jamesalle...-will-play-out/ #18 regarding Vettel and Webber.

Read the thread

[Kalmake]

They should introduce driver ballast that is placed around the cockpit so it surrounds the driver CoG. And then set minimum for driver + this ballast to 80kg.

[scheivlak]

Why can't the FIA step in here? This should never have been left to the teams

It's a FIA regulation....

[trogggy]

Hardly. It's overhyped beyond sanity.

So why are all the drivers teeny-tiny?

 

Hulkenberg's about 74Kg, and that's seen as a problem - even to the point of possibly costing him drives..

74kg is not overly large.  So how's it over-hyped?

[scheivlak]

So why are all the drivers teeny-tiny?

 

Hulkenberg's about 74Kg, and that's seen as a problem - even to the point of possibly costing him drives..

74kg is not overly large.  So how's it over-hyped?

Costing him drives ?    

 

From what i've  read he can choose between four teams at least 

[Silvercheese]

And what advantages do the taller drivers have?

 

Strength?

Intimidation to smaller drivers? 

More marketable in that they relate to normal sized people?

Edited by Silvercheese, 20 October 2013 - 16:30.

[trogggy]

Costing him drives ?    

 

From what i've  read he can choose between four teams at least 

 

Yeah, I just made that up...

 

http://www1.skysport...st-tall-drivers

 

http://www.jamesalle...areer-progress/

Edited by trogggy, 20 October 2013 - 16:30.

[scheivlak]

Yeah, I just made that up...

 

http://www1.skysport...st-tall-drivers

 

http://www.jamesalle...areer-progress/

Well, McLaren wasn't one them 

 

Apart from that, Jenson Button weighs about the same as Nico, so it's not the most convincing argument.

Edited by scheivlak, 20 October 2013 - 16:45.

[trogggy]

I'm not continuing with this 'there's no problem' rubbish.  There's clearly an issue - drivers have spoken about it, team principals have spoken about it, journalists have written about it at length.  If you want to continue your 3 wise monkeys routine then carry on, the rest of us might wonder why there aren't any bigger drivers in F1.  Or not, because the answer's bleeding obvious.

 

It's a ridiculous situation, and makes a mockery of any 'best drivers in the world' claim.

Best teeny-tinies?  Sure.  But why should being jockey-sized be an advantage?  Is there a good reason to write the rules like that?

[HoldenRT]

Just look at their faces.. it's obvious.  In other sports, it's not so bad.. because athletes can be lean, but still build muscle.  In F1, it pays to be more like a marathon runner.. to be skinny and female like.  Muscle is bad.. it adds weight.  The only muscles F1 drivers try to build are neck muscles.

[Kelateboy]

Just look at their faces.. it's obvious.  In other sports, it's not so bad.. because athletes can be lean, but still build muscle.  In F1, it pays to be more like a marathon runner.. to be skinny and female like.  Muscle is bad.. it adds weight.  The only muscles F1 drivers try to build are neck muscles.

 

Just imagine. Skinny, female-like with a huge neck muscle. That is one ugly looking male driver..... 

[Lazy]

And what advantages do the taller drivers have?

 

Strength?

Intimidation to smaller drivers? 

More marketable in that they relate to normal sized people?

As Nige says in the article strength was an advantage and even necessary when they had no power steering and a stick shift (one hand on the wheel) but now they just need to be fit.

[hmm]

I wonder who is the tallest driver ever driven in F1, as I understand the packaging usually has maximum limit for many cars as well.. 

 

Does anyone remember what was the year the car+driver weight became the limit instead of just minimum car weight as I believed it used to be? If we want to fix this "problem" it has to be all series starting from karts.. 

 

In my opinion many sports has the the optimum body build and it varies depending on sports, basketball players are all tall, ski jumpers can't weight much, I believe swimming nowadays has advantage in height as well etc. It's the combination of your build + skills that matters.

[hmm]

Here is a good article about car weights: http://www.f1fanatic...etting-heavier/

 

Before 1995 driver weight was not included in the minimun weight and before that light drivers definitely had an advantage. I wonder have driver weights changed much from then, I somehow doubt it?

[NexusIcon]

I wonder who is the tallest driver ever driven in F1, as I understand the packaging usually has maximum limit for many cars as well...

Justin Wilson is 6'3" and was the tallest driver ever when he raced for Jordan. I'm not sure there's been anyone taller since although there have been a couple at 6' or over, like Webber.

[undersquare]

Why should F1 be the ONLY sport to 100% compensate for size?  . 

 

In every other sport you choose it because you happen to have the build for it.  

 

Next thing somebody will be 1.9m 120kg and quoting the Human Rights Act   .

[scheivlak]

Justin Wilson is 6'3" and was the tallest driver ever when he raced for Jordan. 

Or rather Minardi and Jaguar.

 

Alex Wurz was pretty tall too (6'1"), though maybe no F1 driver beats Dan Gurney (6'4" / 1.93 m).

Edited by scheivlak, 20 October 2013 - 22:00.

[scheivlak]

Here is a good article about car weights: http://www.f1fanatic...etting-heavier/

 

Before 1995 driver weight was not included in the minimun weight and before that light drivers definitely had an advantage. I wonder have driver weights changed much from then, I somehow doubt it?

 

NIce finding!

 

As far as driver factors are concerned I think talent, intelligence and experience are far more important factors, certainly in a game changing year like 2014.

Only if they are more or less equal, something like weight comes into play.

[P123]

 

Best teeny-tinies?  Sure.  But why should being jockey-sized be an advantage?  Is there a good reason to write the rules like that?

 

I don't think it was expected that teams would struggle to meet the weight limit next season.  Clearly an adjustment is needed to increase the minimum weight.