37 replies to this topic

[etoipi]

Marc Marquez was black flagged in the Australian Moto GP (Australia 2013) for not pitting and changing bikes on the designated laps.  This destroyed the potential for further excitment in the race, potentially affecting the championship.

 

My questions for discussion are

1. Was exclusion from the race the appropriate punishment for missing the hastily-put-in-place pitstop sequence?
2. Should the black flag have been used in this situation?

[Diablobb81]

Ride-through.

 

Dani had a safety violation too and his punishment was very light.

[BenettonB192]

No. If he got an advantage from it then drive through. If there was no advantage then a money fine. Silly to disqualify a driver for this kind of violation especialy given the special circumstances of this race being far from business as usual.

[Rob]

The organisers said in advance that the penalty would be a black flag, so ultimately I don't think I can argue with it.

[xmoonrakerx]

Rules are rules and you have to obey...they can argue so the rule gets changed,

 

Sorry for him

[Myrvold]

As Rob says. When decisions are made, with a clear cut on what will happen if you don't follow it. Well, no reason to complain.

[spacekid]

The organisers said in advance that the penalty would be a black flag, so ultimately I don't think I can argue with it.

 

This. I think the punishment is disproportionate, but as it was known in advance then I don't think there was any choice.

 

Ultimately someone at Honda stuffed up, they have no one else to blame.

[Peat]

The rule and punishment were made clear before the race. You simply cannot argue with that.

[BillyWhizz]

Yes. 

 

HRC applied their own interpretation to a quite specific (although hastily created) rule so they only have themselves to blame for the black flag penalty. How come none of the other players thought that lap 10 meant lap 11?

 

And not that it should ever influence such a decision, but it does keep the championship alive for another race or two.

[TimRTC]

The whole situation was F1 at Indy levels of farce.

 

While I agree that given the rules had been laid down that a Black Flag would be the penalty, its use was appropriate, I certainly think that such a penalty should not have been applied in the first place.

 

A ride-through or post-race time penalty would have been far more appropriate.

[Disgrace]

It's absolutely a black flag offence because it was ultimately a safety ruling.

 

It was stated before and during the race, so it was clear as day to everyone and his dog, bar one bloke at Honda and those clowns who commentate for the BBC.

[Cargo]

A week ago, MotoGP was looking like a walkover for Marquez, all boring races etc (similar to Vettel in F1 this year) with race organisers worried about poor ticket sales and media indifference etc. Well, now it looks like the title will go down to the wire. Hmmm. Surprised conspiracy theorists haven't already jumped on this one.

 

Really, it beggars belief that such a big professional team as Honda would get things so badly, badly wrong. I cannot think of a similar catastrophic lapse by a major MotoGP team EVER, in history.

 

Cynical, moi?

 

A few similar inconvenient black flags for Vettel would be very helpful for F1 right now.

Edited by Cargo, 21 October 2013 - 14:00.

[paulogman]

yeah, his team ****ed up.

you know going in you have to pit by a certain lap.

so pit

these are multi-million dollar professional teams.

figure it out.

jeez they bring banks of computers to analyze the smallest details of data, but they can'y figure out how to hang out a sign to call in a rider in time?

ridiculous

 

[nosecone]

Honda did know very when they had to pit. Remember that between the pit of Dani and the pit of MM were 2laps difference, so one of them had to be incorrect. 

 

And if it was a mistake. Well the black is still appopirate. If it is true what people here say, and the consequence of rule violation was clarified previous then the BF is correct

Edited by nosecone, 21 October 2013 - 14:22.

[joshb]

Yes because he broke a rule which was (I'm guessing) clearly pointed out to them before the race...

 

But my problem was with the rule being there to begin with. I still think a mandatory stop at whatever lap of your choice would've sufficed.

 

Also, why couldn't they have a 29 lap race as normal only with the riders making 2 stops? Surely they can crank on another set of wheels on the spare bike in roughly 15 minutes. Fans getting mugged off a bit there

 

I mean you don't see the Spain F1 race shortened to 30 laps because otherwise its a 4 stopper, so why not keep it at normal distance and just have the unusual sight of multiple pitstops

Edited by joshb, 21 October 2013 - 16:34.

[Group B]

The organisers said in advance that the penalty would be a black flag, so ultimately I don't think I can argue with it.

 

Yep, seems harsh, but they knew the deal could have avoided it.

[l8apex]

I am a fan of Marc Marquez and was devastated to see him black flagged.... however it was the right decision.

 

They screwed up and didn't follow the rules.  I have no idea how Honda messed up so badly.

[pingu666]

should of been a drive through tbh, 4 riders got dq

[l8apex]

should of been a drive through tbh, 4 riders got dq

 

I agree that a drive through would have been more appropriate.  

 

I think they screwed up by not coming up with a penalty ahead of time when they decided to set the limit of 10 laps per rear tire.

 

They ended up in a situation with a set of temporary rules with no inclination of what would happen if the rules were broken.

[Melbourne Park]

By the way, it was not a rule ... it was an official communique, handed out a couple of hours before the race.

 

It was not properly communicated, as Honda got them wrong.

 

And the officials failed to call a rider meeting, which was negligent. And I think Webb was negligent over the weekend. He should have ensured that all the teams knew when to come in. Handing out a bit of paper with a list of points on it just before a race, is not appropriate. Webb should be sacked.

 

I find it curious too that the same race director who took a point of Marquez for the Aragon collision with his Honda team mate Pedrosa, also took Marquez's whole 25 point team points from Honda for that Aragon race. ... the same Honda team who had already according to the race director Webb - suffered a large loss of team points due to Pedrosa's fall (probably 20 of them to the team). And now in Australia, the black flag cost Honda perhaps a bundle of points.

 

Team difference points between Honda and Yamaha is now 349 for Honda, compared to 331 for Yamaha. Thanks to race director Webb, that's around 40 points worse for Honda.

 

No matter how I look at it, it smells of a fiddle to me ...

 

and before those think I am Honda biased, I have a genuine Yamaha TD3 350cc ex GP machine, which I've restored. Its scary thing to ride too ...

 

Nah ... this whole thing is stinking badly IMO.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 22 October 2013 - 06:53.

[Bloggsworth]

Yes. Nothing to discuss.

[Seanspeed]

They knew what would happen and made a costly mistake.  Nothing to discuss, really. 

 

I don't really understand what was confusing about it, either.  Even I understood immediately that he stayed out too late.

[basjaski]

This. I think the punishment is disproportionate, but as it was known in advance then I don't think there was any choice.

 

Ultimately someone at Honda stuffed up, they have no one else to blame.

This. 

[Al.]

As much as I want to see Marquez champion, yes he should have been blacked flagged.

It had been decided before the race by Bridgestone (and the officials) that 10 laps was the maximum they wanted anyone doing on those tyres.

Once that is accepted, It is then a safety issue rather than a sporting issue for a bike to be out there for more than 10 laps.

 

Once you decide 10 laps max then you have a choice of pit windows.

For a 20 lap race everyone would have had to pit at the end of lap 10, hence the 19 lap race to give a 2 lap window.

For a larger pit window the race length would have had to be reduced further.

 

As to the suggestion of longer race with multiple pitstops, I don't know as I wasn't there, but I would imagine that the number of tyres Bridgestone had available in Philip Island may have started to be a factor. They've already all used an extra set for the race.

Also as HRC quite clearly couldn't master a one stop race with straightforward stint length and a pit window obvious to all but them, the prospect of watching them try to work out how far there riders could go in a middle stint after a left-field 11 lap first stint would be a farce:)

[Tonka]

Nice get out for Bridgestone, the FIA and Dorna.  People will be rattling on for years over this, when the blame lies with them.  The tyre Marquez used for his first stint was a mess, with chunks missing all around it.  I've not seen pictures of the tyres that were used for 9 and 10 laps.  What state were they in?  How safe were they?

 

By the way, how many of those who believe Marquez should have been blackflagged have ever taken the wrong turning, even when using sat-nav.  Hands up those who've taken the wrong exit on a roundabout?  Misread a road sign - even when you're looking for it?

 

And as for Pedrosa speeding in the pit lane - shouldn't he have been given a drive though ?  'Cos that's been in the rules for ages, not just made up on the day.

[GD66]

He wasn't speeding in the pit lane, he crossed the blend line on the way back onto the track. The speeding was an assumption by the knob commentators because of a replay showing Dani struggling to stop in time for the newly-shifted speed limit mark at pit entry. But that's the least of their transgressions...

 

But that's a strange penalty to invoke : giving up a position on the track is normally only activated in the event of an incidental or accidental pass under a yellow flag. Pedrosa was lucky Marquez was still in the race to drop a spot to, otherwise he'd have had to dawdle around and let Rossi and the other satellite bikes he races with these days catch up...

Edited by GD66, 23 October 2013 - 06:06.

[Gilles4Ever]

Nice get out for Bridgestone, the FIA and Dorna.  People will be rattling on for years over this, when the blame lies with them.  The tyre Marquez used for his first stint was a mess, with chunks missing all around it.  I've not seen pictures of the tyres that were used for 9 and 10 laps.  What state were they in?  How safe were they?

 

By the way, how many of those who believe Marquez should have been blackflagged have ever taken the wrong turning, even when using sat-nav.  Hands up those who've taken the wrong exit on a roundabout?  Misread a road sign - even when you're looking for it?

 

And as for Pedrosa speeding in the pit lane - shouldn't he have been given a drive though ?  'Cos that's been in the rules for ages, not just made up on the day.

FIA has nothing to do with Bike racing.

Taking a wrong turn - ignoring race direction, definitively comparable.

Pedrosa wasn't penalised for speeding.

 

Read some reputable sources, The conditions and rules were the same for everybody, the fault for Marquez's black flag lies squarely with him and his side of the garage.

[Tonka]

Pedrosa should have been penalised in line with the rules - whatever the wrong it gets a drive through.  If Marquez hadn't been there, he would have had to wait many seconds to let the next rider through.  How safe would that be ?

 

There are plenty of sources - but nothing is available, to the best of my knowledge, on the MotoGP or FIM sites.  All a bit 1984.  If it's not recorded officially, it never happened.  I wonder if the frequently revised rules were sent to the teams in English only.  I wouldn't be surprised.

 

The event was a cockup.  Like F1, few if any of the journalists who've written about the race can afford to say what they think, because they could soon lose their access to MotoGP.  Read Toby Moody's piece, and look at how it's written.  First blame the teams & riders for all kinds of problems - then follow it with how Dorna etc are so brilliant.  It's cringeworthy from start to finish. 

[Gilles4Ever]

Even the press had access to the "new rules", just because the FIM doesn't publish everything like the FIA do doesn't mean it didn't happen, they were read by Marquez's side of the garage.read this http://www.motogpmat...day_round_.html

 

The next mistake was made on one side of the Repsol Honda garage. A small group of people - four men, according to Marc Marquez, including Emilio Alzamora and Santi Hernandez - gathered around to ponder the implications of the rules issued. They immediately seized on the following line in the newly arranged rules:

3. No rider is permitted to make more than 10 laps on any one slick or wet rear tyre. This means that a bike/tyre change before lap 9 will require a second bike/tyre change to finish the race.

That, according to their calculations, meant that they could do 10 full laps, and then pit on lap 11, as the Repsol Honda pit was situated before the finish line, and Marquez would therefore have only done 10 complete laps, coming in on the 11th lap, but swapping bikes before the 11th lap commenced.

They were wrong. In their haste to exploit the rules to the utmost without actually breaking them, they had overlooked the line before that, which contained an explicit definition of what was expected. It reads:

2. Every rider will be required to enter the pits and change to his second machine with fresh tyres at least once during the race. In normal circumstances this means that the rider must change machine only at the end of lap 9 or lap 10. (My emphasis).

 

[Tonka]

It wasn't written in plain English was it?  If it had been, you'd not have to point out that bit at the end, would you?

Edited by Tonka, 23 October 2013 - 08:30.

[Gilles4Ever]

Oh so it wasn't the Queen's English? 

[Peat]

Jesus, Tonka. Get over it.

The rules were published, Honda/Marquez tried to push the limit and cocked up. Pretty simple.

 

To suggest that HRC don't have anyone that can read english is laughable.

 

And your comparison to 'taking a wrong turn' is wholly inappropriate.

[GD66]

  Like F1, few if any of the journalists who've written about the race can afford to say what they think, because they could soon lose their access to MotoGP.   

 

 

 

Sad but true, and it has resulted in worthless, simpering commentary and post-race interviews of unadulterated spin that are barely worth bothering with.

Luckily the on-track action is still eye-popping.

[PayasYouRace]

It wasn't written in plain English was it?  If it had been, you'd not have to point out that bit at the end, would you?

 

Stuggling to think how " the rider must change machine only at the end of lap 9 or lap 10." could be made any plainer.

[03011969]

Stuggling to think how " the rider must change machine only at the end of lap 9 or lap 10." could be made any plainer.

Quite.  A monumentally ridiculous screw up by Honda.  Even if they were thinking "perhaps that *could* mean at the end of the next lap" you would have thought it prudent to check that with the rule-makers first before taking such an unnecessary gamble.

 

It just seems utterly bizarre.

Edited by 03011969, 23 October 2013 - 10:07.

[GD66]

Possibly could have been circumvented by actually having a race-morning riders briefing where any ambiguities could have been thrashed through and worked out. It seems the race format and rules were delivered as a written bulletin, and no doubt an email.

Hopefully lessons have been learnt...

[Peat]

The only reason Honda tried it was because they perceived there to be an advantage by doing so. Even if there had been a specific briefing, they wouldn't have wanted to give away their 'race-winning' strategy. 

[Tonka]

Sad but true, and it has resulted in worthless, simpering commentary and post-race interviews of unadulterated spin that are barely worth bothering with.

Luckily the on-track action is still eye-popping.

 

Mat Oxley has given the event both barrels.  That's him off the MotoGP Xmas card list.

 

http://www.motorspor...phillip-island/

 

 

Embarrassing. No other word for it, really. Well, apart from incompetence on the grandest scale. Pretty much everyone involved in the upper echelons of MotoGP was responsible for Sunday’s travesty of a race: Bridgestone, Dorna, the FIM, the Grand Prix Permanent Bureau, the Grand Prix Commission, IRTA, Race Direction, safety officer Franco Uncini and safety advisor Loris Capirossi. They all failed in their duty of care to the riders, putting them in all kinds of danger because they hadn’t done their jobs properly.

 

That's some Gravy Train running MotoGP.  It'll be interesting to see if those same people come in for some flac from Casey Stoner in his book, which is due to be released any day now.