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Is the Red Bull Junior Team really a waste dump?


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#1 Jackmancer

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:28

'First reaction? Yet another Red Bullshit decision that defies any kind of logic and leaves another huge talent on the waste dump.', was tweeted by Will Buxton yesterday, but I do wonder, is it really a waste dump?

 

Without its current drivers, the program had 29 drivers, from which 14 (Kvyat included) made it into F1.

 

It is worth saying though, that from those 14 drivers, bar Vettel, none have scored a podium. And that from the 14, four never even scored a point (Bernoldi, Doornbos, Speed and Chandhok).

 

Of course it's easier to get a driver into Formula 1 when you have two seats in backmarker team (STR), or money to spare to put them into other backmarker teams. Such as Ricciardo, Chandhok (HRT), Bernoldi (Arrows), Doornbos, Friesacher (Minardi), Klien (Jaguar). Only Liuzzi debuted in a Red Bull car.

 

Then, comparing it to let's say the Ferrari Driver Academy, they've had 4 former drivers (Bianchi is still part of it), from which only Perez made it into Formula 1, who did score podium finishes.

 

From the Renault Driver Development Programme, now named Lotus F1 Junior Team, 37 drivers are (or still are) taken in, and 9 made it into F1 (Kubica, Monteiro, Kovalainen, van der Garde, Maldonado, di Grassi, Grosjean, Pic, d'Ambrosio and di Grassi). Three race winners in there, and five never scored a point finish.

 

Comparing it to the Elf program of the 70's to 90's: The first two talents of the Elf program were Patrick Tambay and Didier Pironi, who both went on to win Grand Prix. Over the years, Alain Prost, Pascal Fabre, Olivier Grouillard, Paul Belmondo, Éric Bernard, Érik Comas and Olivier Panis all made it into F1. I can't really find the drivers of the Elf program that didn't made it into F1 though.

 

I can't find a lot about Mercedes' driver program in the early 90's, but it included Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Karl Wendlinger and Michael Schumacher.

 

 

Anyhow, it does leave me with a lot of questions.

 

How are drivers picked? Is it partly marketing (a nationality to sell more cans in a certain country, or gender such as Biekste Visser), or purely talent?

What's the best talent programme?

And how would you do it?


Edited by Jackmancer, 22 October 2013 - 10:02.


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#2 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:32

They spend a lot of money to basically gain exclusive rights to the best up and coming drivers they can get, which is smart if you can afford it.  Obviously there's going to be hits and misses, but there's only two Red Bull seats, so you don't need a whole lot of hits to make it worthwhile.



#3 Gorma

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:38

The fact that Red Bulls junior program has come up with Vettel has made everything worth it'S price. Junior programs that come up with world champions are rare... let alone quadruple WDCs.

#4 scheivlak

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:51

 

It is worth saying though, that from those 14 drivers, bar Vettel, none have scored a podium. And that from the 14, five never even scored a point (Bernoldi, Karthikeyan, Doornbos, Speed and Chandhok).

 

Just a slight correction: Karthikeyan famously did score points   ;)

And Bernoldi and Speed would have scored points with the current system.

 

Still, it seems indeed that there more misses than hits for some reason. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with nationality.

There's a difference with the Elf program: AFAIK Elf made their choice once those guys established themselves as upcoming stars. Red Bull picks them a lot earlier and it looks like that results in a rather random amount of success for them to make that last step successfully. For some of them I have the feeling that they were pampered a bit too much and couldn't adapt to a harsher reality once thet got there, but that's just an impression.



#5 Jackmancer

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:02

Just a slight correction: Karthikeyan famously did score points   ;)

And Bernoldi and Speed would have scored points with the current system.

 

 

Ah - yes, I was about to add Friesacher to the 'non-points' category as well, but he scored points in that Indy race, like Karthikeyan. Editted now.



#6 EthanM

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:11

oh great, another recycle of this thread. Timely too, it's barely been a month since it was last recycled.



#7 mnmracer

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:16

Montoya was from the Red Bull school, only before it was officialy RBjr.

I believe Bourdais as well, and aside from F1, he's been doing quite well in other classes.


Edited by mnmracer, 22 October 2013 - 10:16.


#8 Jackmancer

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:50

Red Bull picks them a lot earlier and it looks like that results in a rather random amount of success for them to make that last step successfully. For some of them I have the feeling that they were pampered a bit too much and couldn't adapt to a harsher reality once thet got there, but that's just an impression.

 

True - Vettel was only 11 years old when picked.



#9 rhukkas

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:54

Some people pay to be part of the programme by the way... so keep that in mind.



#10 Jackmancer

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:00

Some people pay to be part of the programme by the way... so keep that in mind.

Really? But then what's the programme good for? I thought Red Bull was providing the money.

 

Which drivers pay? Do you know?



#11 ReeVe

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:02

they produced a triple, soon likely quadruple, world champion. that makes it the most successful junior program in history, far exceeding the we produced 3 drivers that each got a few podiums thing. 

 

Vettel's success, if you take off whatever fan glasses you are wearing, is once in a generation if not rarer type of success. So no I don't see how it is a "dump". And I don't think their target is to generate Trullis and Fisichellas, if that was their target there are far cheaper ways to do it.



#12 Jackmancer

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:05

they produced a triple, soon likely quadruple, world champion. that makes it the most successful junior program in history, far exceeding the we produced 3 drivers that each got a few podiums thing. 

 

 

If you're talking 'most succesful junior program in history', Merc's program produced a seven-time world champion.



#13 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:08

I think the Red Bull programme is one of the best out there and definetly one of the more well funded. 

 

How do you pick a young driver talent for such a commercialised sport as F1? 

 

There are probably hundred different ways. 

 

The fact that the programme has produced a quadruple (soon to be) F1 WDC I think is validation enough. On top of that they have produced a large number of drivers that are professional racing drivers in various categories even after they were released from the Red Bull programme. 

 

It's true they have thrown out a lot of good talent - a lot of Fisichellas and Trullis if you like has been thrown out (Alguersuari, Buemi, Speed, Liuzzi to name but a few) but the programme seems to be designed around having a larger number of  different talents handsomely paid to race winning material in junior categories but under a lot of pressure and those who don't cut it gets thrown out along the way. Some early, some late like Buemi and Alguersuari who got their fair chance in F1. 

 

Maybe it's like going for gold. You wash out a lot of stuff and trash before you find the small pot of gold ... 



#14 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:10

If you're talking 'most succesful junior program in history', Merc's program produced a seven-time world champion.

 

Just a small shame for the programme that the seven-time world champion never won a single F1 race or F1 title for the programme investor but instead went on to do all that sucess with a rival .... oooops. 



#15 ReeVe

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:12

If you're talking 'most succesful junior program in history', Merc's program produced a seven-time world champion.

 except Mercedes' program was a sportscar program, there was no tie in to F1 or single seaters, and fundamentally it was far more "nationalistic" that a program run by an Austrian company that barely includes any Austrian drivers. Schumacher joined the Mercedes junior sportscar team and after two seasons got a Mercedes funded single F1 race with Jordan, that does not qualify as anything remotely resembling a junior driver program you are trying to compare it to



#16 rhukkas

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:12

If you're talking 'most succesful junior program in history', Merc's program produced a seven-time world champion.

 

I am giving no names, but McLaren have a similar programme too. You pay to be part of their 'young driver' programme and receive training, simulator work etc... it's not like RedBull, McLaren etc... are all paying for these guys to go racing. If I recall correctly Jaime was part funding his torro-rosso drive.

 

Really, that's the modern F1 game. A shit load of rich people racing other rich people and we're supposed to think the results are an accurate reflection on someones talent. ... ok....



#17 RosannaG

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:16

True - Vettel was only 11 years old when picked.

 

And MS had something to do with it...

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_txbuD8fIoI



#18 X61

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:16

Just a slight correction: Karthikeyan famously did score points   ;)

To be fair, I could have scored points in that race.  He was just lucky enough to have a few more dollars to spend on an F1 seat.



#19 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:18

I am giving no names, but McLaren have a similar programme too. You pay to be part of their 'young driver' programme and receive training, simulator work etc... it's not like RedBull, McLaren etc... are all paying for these guys to go racing. If I recall correctly Jaime was part funding his torro-rosso drive.

 

Really, that's the modern F1 game. A shit load of rich people racing other rich people and we're supposed to think the results are an accurate reflection on someones talent. ... ok....

 

 

Not just F1 but motorsport in general. 

 

A large, large majority of drivers around in different categories have to raise the budget to go racing. Even after they win the championship they are racing in in quite an impressive style the first thing they get asked for next season is "Yes we'd lolve you to drive for us and defend your title. How much budget can you bring?" 

 

It's unfortunately they way motorsport, in all categories, works these days. 

 

I have friends racing on a professional level in categories such as GT's, touring cars etc. who spend more time raising and finding budget for their drives than actually race. And we're not talking about journeyman gentleman drivers here but very capable drivers. It's just a very, very tough business and even if you have al ot of talent and show a lot of results and deliver, it's circumstances, luck, hard work and coincidence that leads to paid drivers and they are very far and few in between. 

 

but it would be wrong to call many of the shit load of rich people.



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#20 Brandz07

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:24

Some people pay to be part of the programme by the way... so keep that in mind.

I'm sure that's the case in the Lotus programme, didn't think it was in Red Bull's. Do you know who?


Edited by Brandz07, 22 October 2013 - 11:25.


#21 krea

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:31

You can't get a druver if

 

I am giving no names, but McLaren have a similar programme too. You pay to be part of their 'young driver' programme and receive training, simulator work etc... it's not like RedBull, McLaren etc... are all paying for these guys to go racing. If I recall correctly Jaime was part funding his torro-rosso drive.

 

Really, that's the modern F1 game. A shit load of rich people racing other rich people and we're supposed to think the results are an accurate reflection on someones talent. ... ok....

 

Do you think F1 was ever not a game of and for rich people?



#22 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:34

Just reading the opening post, my guess is Buxton is pissy because da Costa is under serious threat now. 



#23 RosannaG

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:34

I hope I'm not going off topic if I post this link. It's an interesting (and long, it has two pages) NY Times article about the Red Bull philosophy in terms of sports sponsorship. Hope you enjoy it.  :D

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ml?pagewanted=1



#24 Jackmancer

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:37

 except Mercedes' program was a sportscar program, there was no tie in to F1 or single seaters

 

I think Mercedes payed Jordan 100,000 pound for Schumacher's seat at Jordan for the Belgium Grand Prix in 1991. Not sure about the amount, but they did pay Jordan.



#25 redreni

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:25

Red Bull's young driver programme has a rather good record of bringing drivers into F1 because, even when Coulthard and Webber were still together at Red Bull, there were still two F1 seats that were available exclusively to Red Bull young drivers, when Coulthard announced his retirement that became three seats, and with Webber's step up to WEC there are now four seats that appear not to be open to anybody except Red Bull young driver programme drivers. But, as we've seen many times in recent years, this does not precude the placement of Red Bull drivers with other teams too.

 

So it's no surprise that more drivers from that programme make it to F1 than from the Mclaren or Ferrari or Renault programmes. The relative wealth of opportunity for drivers on Red Bull's programme also makes it the most desirable one for a young driver to get signed up to, so should give them the pick of the young drivers, but to be perfectly honest, Vettel apart, the performances of the Red Bull young drivers that have made it to F1 has been well short of the level one might have expected.

 

And because they don't run established names in STR, they haven't been able to tell, since the customer car ban, whether those poor results are purely because the car is hopeless, or if it's because people like Buemi and Alguasuari aren't any good. So if they would have brought in either Buemi or Alguasuari in 2009 alongside, say, Ralf Schumacher, they would have been able to tell if the young guy was any good or not. If they'd have paired somebody like Nick Heidfeld with either Vergne or Ricciardo, we'd probably have a lot less polarisation of opinion as to whether Ricciardo is going to Red Bull as a potential world champion or just as Vettel's lapdog. This is probably also why people like Will Buxton feel that the Red Bull young driver programme wastes talent, because it decides people aren't good enough and lets them go even when they haven't had the chance to directly compare themselves against the established drivers in F1. And he's irritated because he's been bigging up da Costa and now he's been leapfrogged by someone younger.

 

Personally I think the whole thing is basically a vanity project of Mateschitz's, and the reason the other teams don't run such a massive and expensive driver development system, including a dedicated F1 team that exists purely for the purposes of the young driver programme, is because it's not worth the money. It's cheaper to buy the talent in once it's proved itself at somebody else's expense. From the other team's point of view it would be counterproductive to take money from car design and develpment and spend it on a Red Bull-style young driver system, because even if in doing so they identified a driver that's better than what they could have bought in from outside, that's no good if it compromises the competitiveness of their machinery.



#26 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:45

I'm sure someone can correct me on this but I seem to remember Mateschitz were asked by Bernie to help out the Minardi team by buying it so another team wouldn't dissapear on the grid, and that is why he sort of "got it on his hands". I wouldn't rule out some financial support in the background from Bernie to keep that running. And with a junior team in F1 you possibly might not want to have owned in the first place, maybe partly financed by the F1 commercial rights holder, it would make more sense to invest in a larger junior programme when you have four potential seats in F1 to fill. 

 

Usually in F1 and motorsport there are far more things than meets the eye. So I don't think it's so much of a vanity project for Mateschitz as a consequence of helping Ecclestone out in keeping a team on the grid by taking it over. 

 

 

Vanity project - that would be to take a Swiss guy and send him out in outer space where you kick him out of the space craft to fall down the atmosphere down back to Earth again. Now that is vanity! 



#27 rhukkas

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:51

You can't get a druver if

 

 

Do you think F1 was ever not a game of and for rich people?

 

Well of course F1 has always been a rich man's game, but like a virus its infected other areas of motorsport which were never 'exclusively for' rich people. Karting for example. If someone has a dream of being a top-level karter for example, they are now looking at budgets of 250,000+ to compete. The prices are that high for no other reason than because some very wealth individuals have this stupid assumption they spend if those sort of sums on their kid they'll make it to F1. doesn't matter that the average joe who harbours a dream to be a professional in their chosen sport is kicked to the sides.

 

it's not just karting, but all of motorsport. The averages joes can't afford to compete on an appreciable level in decent classes and end up racing shitty old saxos.

 

No one is particularly to blame, its just a shit situation.


Edited by rhukkas, 22 October 2013 - 12:52.


#28 Gorma

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 13:04

Red Bull Junior team is really a waste dump because it has produced only one quadruple WDC.



#29 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 13:05

Well of course F1 has always been a rich man's game, but like a virus its infected other areas of motorsport which were never 'exclusively for' rich people. Karting for example. If someone has a dream of being a top-level karter for example, they are now looking at budgets of 250,000+ to compete. The prices are that high for no other reason than because some very wealth individuals have this stupid assumption they spend if those sort of sums on their kid they'll make it to F1. doesn't matter that the average joe who harbours a dream to be a professional in their chosen sport is kicked to the sides.

 

it's not just karting, but all of motorsport. The averages joes can't afford to compete on an appreciable level in decent classes and end up racing shitty old saxos.

 

No one is particularly to blame, its just a shit situation.

 

 

You do seem to blame some wealthy individuals though ;) 

 

Motorsport is and has always been an expensive form of sport though. Maybe the structure has become worse the last 20 years but I doubt it because you could hear this from people active in the 60's, 70's and 80's too. It's extremely hard to make it in motorsport if when you have a big talent for it. 



#30 Rinehart

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 13:18

The fact Red Bull have Vettel and have just promoted Riccardo as a consequence of TR justifies it in my opinion. Although, if Vettel were to leave Red Bull next year, I can't see where they'd find a replacement for him in the Red Bull team from the junior set up. Also, since Riccardo will probably keep the number 2 seat warm for a few years, there is probably a lock on the promotion door for a while yet - which makes the relevance of the junior infrastructure largely about timing. If Webber had not chosen to leave Red Bull this year (by all accounts it was his choice) then there would have been no room to move Riccardo up and therefore the Russian kid in. I expect unless anything dramatic happens, the next time to be doing well in the TR is probably about 2016...

 

One thing though, purely on sporting grounds, I do not like big F1 teams holding influence over smaller F1 teams. The junior network should all be outside F1 in my opinion, I don't agree with the TR part even though its been effective.



#31 pingu666

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 13:46

the 2 teams does give them large amount of power, they could pull 4 cars off the grid



#32 redreni

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 13:54

I'm sure someone can correct me on this but I seem to remember Mateschitz were asked by Bernie to help out the Minardi team by buying it so another team wouldn't dissapear on the grid, and that is why he sort of "got it on his hands". I wouldn't rule out some financial support in the background from Bernie to keep that running. And with a junior team in F1 you possibly might not want to have owned in the first place, maybe partly financed by the F1 commercial rights holder, it would make more sense to invest in a larger junior programme when you have four potential seats in F1 to fill. 

 

Usually in F1 and motorsport there are far more things than meets the eye. So I don't think it's so much of a vanity project for Mateschitz as a consequence of helping Ecclestone out in keeping a team on the grid by taking it over. 

 

 

Vanity project - that would be to take a Swiss guy and send him out in outer space where you kick him out of the space craft to fall down the atmosphere down back to Earth again. Now that is vanity! 

 

Maybe Bernie might have provided an incentive for DM to save Minardi back when F1 was strugling for numbers at the height of the spending war. No chance that's ongoing now - Bernie seems to be actively trying to reduce the number of teams so he can offer the remaining outfits a bigger slice of the pie.

 

And if the young driver programme isn't a vanity project, why did Mateschitz insist on no team orders when Webber was leading the championship in 2010? He was willing to give Ferrari a golden opportunity to pinch the title from Webber because, at the end of the day, he was only really interested in winning it with his protege. That's how I've always seen it, anyway. I can't prove it, but it looks that way to me.



#33 sv401

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 14:40

And if the young driver programme isn't a vanity project, why did Mateschitz insist on no team orders when Webber was leading the championship in 2010?

 

Because Vettel still had a realistic chance of winning the championship (and indeed it was realistic as he has actually won it) even after the engine failure in Korea. Do you think any serious top driver would have been willing to bend over like a sheep in a similar situation, and give up his - possibly never returning - chance to be F1 WDC ? How about the idea of Alonso playing second fiddle to Hamilton at the end of 2007 ? After all, the latter did have more points, and often not even by a small margin.


Edited by sv401, 22 October 2013 - 14:40.


#34 Andrew Hope

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 15:01

I don't really think you can compare the academies/B-teams/etc. This isn't like football where every club has 11 guys on the B-team, and you can say Team A had 9 players graduate to the first team, Team B only had 4, therefore Team A has a better academy. Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull etc. are all giving drivers in various series various opportunities, with different levels of backing for different lengths of time and there is really too many variables, whatever argument you try and make you're just cherry picking.



#35 st99

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 15:04

The fact that next year the 4 ToroRosso and Red Bull drivers will have come from the Junior Team already proves that it's not a waste (the fact that one of them is a 3WDC possibly 4WDC helps :p )

 

This program reminds me to FC Barcelona famous "cantera" with Messi being like Vettel the star of the project and like in the RBJT the others that have some since him were not as good, having to live up with the comparison with them.



#36 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 15:43

An excellent junior programme where one of its graduates would soon become a quadruple WDC.



#37 rhukkas

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 15:48

The fact that next year the 4 ToroRosso and Red Bull drivers will have come from the Junior Team already proves that it's not a waste (the fact that one of them is a 3WDC possibly 4WDC helps :p )

 

This program reminds me to FC Barcelona famous "cantera" with Messi being like Vettel the star of the project and like in the RBJT the others that have some since him were not as good, having to live up with the comparison with them.

 

Hmm... Xavi and Iniesta are the real stars of Barcelona. They've won World and European Cups... whereas Messi has none hehe



#38 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 15:49

That just shows the disparity of club vs country football.



#39 Thomas99

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 15:53

I would say the program is a success. They've got the best two drivers produced by the program into the top car.

 

Da Costa wasn't picked because of his results in FR3.5 this season.



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#40 onemoresolo

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 16:54

I would expect Da Costa to get Vergne's seat in 2015.

 

A year for Da Costa to redeem himself after this one. And by that time Vergne's three seasons will be up, and he'll be booted out like Buemi and Alguersuari were at that point.

 

Failing that, perhaps Sainz, but I don't see Vergne staying beyond 2014.



#41 Fastcake

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 16:56

You do seem to blame some wealthy individuals though ;) 

 

Motorsport is and has always been an expensive form of sport though. Maybe the structure has become worse the last 20 years but I doubt it because you could hear this from people active in the 60's, 70's and 80's too. It's extremely hard to make it in motorsport if when you have a big talent for it. 

 

In my opinion it has gotten far worse, especially the last couple of years. In the past getting to the upper echelons of motorsport was within reach of your average well-off family. Nowadays unless your father literally owns a bank or you're bankrolled by a banana republic getting to F1 is impossible on your own.


Edited by Fastcake, 22 October 2013 - 16:56.


#42 Spillage

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 17:38

There's no doubt its a dog-eat-dog world and a highly competitive environment, but let's not forget that the promotion of Ricciardo means that all four RB drivers came from their junior programme. I mean, I thought the double sacking of Buemi and Alguersuari was harsh but really, were either going to be world champion? Then they brought in Ricciardo and I think he's done a better job than either of the aforementioned. RB aren't interested in mediocrity, they don't want solid points scorers. They want future world champions, so their decision does not surprise me. Indeed, if anything I am surprised by the loyalty they have shown to Vergne - I think I'd have been inclined to bring in Da Costa alongside him for next season.

 

What I do think, however, is that they handle these drivers too young. I think they'll need a terrific man-management to look after Kvyat. It's very young to become a world sports star, and at that age I suspect the pressure can just break you. I felt the same wit Alguersuari - these guys were probably a full ten years from their peak when they entered F1, and their age needs to be kept in mind when evaluating their performances.


Edited by Spillage, 22 October 2013 - 17:43.


#43 RosannaG

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 17:38

Hmm... Xavi and Iniesta are the real stars of Barcelona. They've won World and European Cups... whereas Messi has none hehe

 

For Messi, it would be difficult to win an European Cup...  :lol:

 

Being serious, I understand what st99 meant and in some way, he is quite right. Messi is the big star and the other are great, great players but they did not reach his status. Is it unfair? Probably but too often, life is unfair.

 

And going back to the topic, for the first time, all four drivers come from the Junior Team... That's really something...

 

And if there is a discusion about Da Costa y Sainz Jr. makes the project an even bigger success...

 

I'm sure many teams would love to be in their place...  


Edited by RosannaG, 22 October 2013 - 17:39.


#44 redreni

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 17:46

Because Vettel still had a realistic chance of winning the championship (and indeed it was realistic as he has actually won it) even after the engine failure in Korea. Do you think any serious top driver would have been willing to bend over like a sheep in a similar situation, and give up his - possibly never returning - chance to be F1 WDC ? How about the idea of Alonso playing second fiddle to Hamilton at the end of 2007 ? After all, the latter did have more points, and often not even by a small margin.


So when the Red Bull cars kept finishing line astern, with the championship leader behind, which to any rational observer at the time (not with the benefit of hindsight) looked like a gift to Alonso, you‘re contending that Horner didn‘t ask Vettel to move over because he was chicken? He was afraid that Vettel wouldn‘t obey?

At the end of the day the failure to support Webber when he was leading gave Ferrari the chance to win the title. They messed it up. The fact that Ferrari missed a penalty, so to speak, doesn‘t mean it was clever of Red Bull to give the penalty away. Red Bull opted not to back Webber knowing the most likely consequence was that Alonso would win the title, but they were willing to run that risk in order to give Vettel a chance, because they would have preferred Alonso to win rather than Webber. That‘s how much the young driver programme means to Mateschitz. Again, just my opinion.

#45 Amphicar

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 18:06

What I do think, however, is that they handle these drivers too young. I think they'll need a terrific man-management to look after Kvyat. It's very young to become a world sports star, and at that age I suspect the pressure can just break you. I felt the same wit Alguersuari - these guys were probably a full ten years from their peak when they entered F1, and their age needs to be kept in mind when evaluating their performances.

Except that Kvyat is not especially young - as I have already pointed out in the Kvyat thread, when he makes his race debut in Australia next year he will be exactly the same age that Chris Amon was on his F1 debut. I don't recall anyone complaining that Amon was too young - and he had a lot less high-level race experience than Kvyat has.

 

Sirotkin on the other hand is both very young and inexperienced - now that really is putting everything on red and hoping for the best.



#46 st99

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 18:11

So when the Red Bull cars kept finishing line astern, with the championship leader behind, which to any rational observer at the time (not with the benefit of hindsight) looked like a gift to Alonso, you‘re contending that Horner didn‘t ask Vettel to move over because he was chicken? He was afraid that Vettel wouldn‘t obey?

At the end of the day the failure to support Webber when he was leading gave Ferrari the chance to win the title. They messed it up. The fact that Ferrari missed a penalty, so to speak, doesn‘t mean it was clever of Red Bull to give the penalty away. Red Bull opted not to back Webber knowing the most likely consequence was that Alonso would win the title, but they were willing to run that risk in order to give Vettel a chance, because they would have preferred Alonso to win rather than Webber. That‘s how much the young driver programme means to Mateschitz. Again, just my opinion.

 

If they had asked Vettel to move aside for Webber in Brazil, neither him or Webber would have been WDC in Abu Dhabi. So what RB did was the best they could have done to let one of their drivers win.



#47 SebnandoKimilton

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 18:43

We have only seen one driver from the Red Bull jr program get a top drive, he is about to win his 4th consecutive world title.

 

Maybe they will only find a driver of that standard every 5 to 10 years, somebody of that caliber doesn't come along often.

 

The Red Bull Jr program allows young drivers the chance to prove themselves in F1 & because of their huge amount of money the drivers get in because of talent, not money.

 

Isn't that what we all want to see?


Edited by SebnandoKimilton, 22 October 2013 - 18:43.


#48 Bloggsworth

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 18:46

I would have thought that the most successful "Junior school" for F1 drivers was the old British F3 Championship in its various guises, producing about 20 World Championships and a couple of dozen or more F1 points scoring drivers.

#49 krea

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 19:01

So when the Red Bull cars kept finishing line astern, with the championship leader behind, which to any rational observer at the time (not with the benefit of hindsight) looked like a gift to Alonso, you‘re contending that Horner didn‘t ask Vettel to move over because he was chicken? He was afraid that Vettel wouldn‘t obey?

At the end of the day the failure to support Webber when he was leading gave Ferrari the chance to win the title. They messed it up. The fact that Ferrari missed a penalty, so to speak, doesn‘t mean it was clever of Red Bull to give the penalty away. Red Bull opted not to back Webber knowing the most likely consequence was that Alonso would win the title, but they were willing to run that risk in order to give Vettel a chance, because they would have preferred Alonso to win rather than Webber. That‘s how much the young driver programme means to Mateschitz. Again, just my opinion.

 

That's nonsense.

 

If you look at the pace of the two drivers at the end of the year, you would see that Vettel was not just a little bit better just a different league better. Without the DNF in Korea he would have won the 4 last races. Allowing Vettel to race for the WCC was the only reasonable choice.


Edited by krea, 22 October 2013 - 19:02.


#50 Spillage

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 19:46

Except that Kvyat is not especially young - as I have already pointed out in the Kvyat thread, when he makes his race debut in Australia next year he will be exactly the same age that Chris Amon was on his F1 debut. I don't recall anyone complaining that Amon was too young - and he had a lot less high-level race experience than Kvyat has.

 

Sirotkin on the other hand is both very young and inexperienced - now that really is putting everything on red and hoping for the best.

Amon, however, is just one example. For every Amon, Alonso or Rodriguez there's a Thackwell, Alguersuari or Tuero - drivers who entered F1 too young, whose potential was wasted and whom we never got to see the best of. 

 

In any case, F1 is a much more high-profile, and accordingly high-pressure, environment than it was when Amon made his debut. Considering this, I think Kyvat is a big risk; there's a real chance he could wilt under the pressure and we never see the best of him. Obviously those at RB know him best and think he can handle it; I hope they're right.