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Is the Red Bull Junior Team really a waste dump?


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#51 redreni

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 20:31

That's nonsense.
 
If you look at the pace of the two drivers at the end of the year, you would see that Vettel was not just a little bit better just a different league better. Without the DNF in Korea he would have won the 4 last races. Allowing Vettel to race for the WCC was the only reasonable choice.


So are you suggesting that Red Bull made decisions about team orders based on Webber‘s lack of pace in races that hadn‘t happened yet? When they allowed Vettel to finish ahead of Webber in Singapore and Japan, missing the chance to increase Webber‘s championship lead by 10 points to a rather healthy 24, they based that decision on the advice of a very accurate fortune-teller who said Webber was going to bin it in Korea and then drive very slowly in the last two races?

I‘m not questioning that, as it turned out, the decision they made was very good for them I‘m questioning the notion that they could possibly have thought, at the time, without hindsight, that they were increasing their chances of winning the title by allowing Webber‘s championship lead to be needlessly eroded by Alonso. And I‘m speculating as to why they made the choices they did. I know Vettel fans will always take the view that they did it because they were somehow mesmerised by Vettel‘s star quality, or because they‘re all-knowing geniuses or, most fancifully of all, because Red Bull don‘t believe in team orders. But I don‘t buy that and I think Mateschitz and Marko blocked team orders in Webber‘s favour because they were only bothered about the Red Bull junior, not about winning the WDC for the team, and certainly not about some stop-gap driver left over from when the bought the team off Ford.

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#52 st99

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 21:05

So are you suggesting that Red Bull made decisions about team orders based on Webber‘s lack of pace in races that hadn‘t happened yet? When they allowed Vettel to finish ahead of Webber in Singapore and Japan, missing the chance to increase Webber‘s championship lead by 10 points to a rather healthy 24, they based that decision on the advice of a very accurate fortune-teller who said Webber was going to bin it in Korea and then drive very slowly in the last two races?

I‘m not questioning that, as it turned out, the decision they made was very good for them I‘m questioning the notion that they could possibly have thought, at the time, without hindsight, that they were increasing their chances of winning the title by allowing Webber‘s championship lead to be needlessly eroded by Alonso. And I‘m speculating as to why they made the choices they did. I know Vettel fans will always take the view that they did it because they were somehow mesmerised by Vettel‘s star quality, or because they‘re all-knowing geniuses or, most fancifully of all, because Red Bull don‘t believe in team orders. But I don‘t buy that and I think Mateschitz and Marko blocked team orders in Webber‘s favour because they were only bothered about the Red Bull junior, not about winning the WDC for the team, and certainly not about some stop-gap driver left over from when the bought the team off Ford.

 

From Singapore? That race where Webber finished like 30 seconds behind Vettel?

Vettel was 20 points more or less behind at that time and with 4 races to go, 100 points still in play. How could they tell Vettel to back off then? We can argue about team orders in Brazil but not before (in my opinion of course).

 

Anyway, on topic, for me it's clear that the junior program is not a waste.


Edited by st99, 22 October 2013 - 21:06.


#53 joshb

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 21:17

What ever the rights or wrongs... they wanted 2 shots at it (Webber and Vettel)... in the end it worked. Vettel got it. Had they backed Webber, it wouldn't have.

Webber can moan all he likes about RB "not exactly laying it on a plate for me in 2010" but fact is in 2012 when Seb was going for the title, Webber was well out the picture. In 2010 when Webber was going for the title, Vettel wasn't out of the picture.



#54 RealRacing

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 21:34

Hmm maybe a spec series would improve the chances of non-rich but talented drivers to compete in top-level motor racing?



#55 Amphicar

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 22:22

Amon, however, is just one example. For every Amon, Alonso or Rodriguez there's a Thackwell, Alguersuari or Tuero - drivers who entered F1 too young, whose potential was wasted and whom we never got to see the best of. 

 

In any case, F1 is a much more high-profile, and accordingly high-pressure, environment than it was when Amon made his debut. Considering this, I think Kyvat is a big risk; there's a real chance he could wilt under the pressure and we never see the best of him. Obviously those at RB know him best and think he can handle it; I hope they're right.

I agree that there is risk in promoting Kvyat to a full F1 seat - but there are plenty of drivers who made their debut at a much older age but still failed to make an impression. I don't think it as simple a matter as age - racing experience, strength of character and talent are also important. Amon and Alonso (for example) were young and relatively inexperienced but had talent to burn and were strong characters. Like most professional sports, F1 is a harsh and unforgiving world - you take your chances when they arise - if they arise. 



#56 michaelmyers

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 22:53

Hmm maybe a spec series would improve the chances of non-rich but talented drivers to compete in top-level motor racing?

Like GP2? :rotfl:



#57 RealRacing

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 23:14

Like GP2? :rotfl:

Ok, I meant maybe if F1 was one or there was a parallel series to F1 that was spec. Difficult I know and undesirable by many, but ...



#58 lbennie

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:16

Best young driver program in the pit lane.

 

I would have thought that was obvious.

 

No other program has as many drivers on the grid, as of next year.

 

2 of their drivers will be driving for the top team.

 

What more can you ask for?



#59 William Hunt

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:09

What will happen to Felix Da Costa now? Will they still keep him on the program or will he be dumped in the waste bin?



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#60 lbennie

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:49

So if RB doesn't renew a contract, that = Dumping that person in the waste bin??

 

:lol:


Edited by lbennie, 23 October 2013 - 05:52.


#61 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:21

So if RB doesn't renew a contract, that = Dumping that person in the waste bin??

 

:lol:

 

 

Yes. After having paid him $160,000 per year to race winning cars in different categories. 

 

Never has a waste bin looked so lovely huh? 



#62 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:26

What will happen to Felix Da Costa now? Will they still keep him on the program or will he be dumped in the waste bin?

 

At best, he will have to wait one (1) more year to secure STR seat should either JEV or Kvyat massively under-performs.

 

At worst, Da Costa will finish out his remaining contract with RB and be racing in minor categories until he calls it a day.



#63 sergeym

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:54

What do you expect RB to do? Its not like they have obligation to provide F1 seat for every driver who enters their program. Every driver who joins them knows that he will have to compete with long line of others.



#64 sv401

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:35

I‘m not questioning that, as it turned out, the decision they made was very good for them I‘m questioning the notion that they could possibly have thought, at the time, without hindsight, that they were increasing their chances of winning the title by allowing Webber‘s championship lead to be needlessly eroded by Alonso.

 

If you really only care about maximizing the WDC chances at any costs, and not about giving a fair chance to both drivers (a somewhat unsurprising attitude from a Ferrari/Alonso fan), why not just give full, uncompromising no.1 status to Vettel right from the first race ? After all, the team already knew after 2009 that he is the faster driver on average, with more potential to improve as well. The main reason why Webber was ahead at all at any point is that he had less reliability problems. Swap the Red Bull drivers in Monaco (+7 points relative to Alonso) and Turkey (+27 points because of preventing the accident), no cheating in Hungary to help Webber (+10 points), and the 2010 championship would have looked quite different, with a relatively easy win for Vettel. There might have been additional benefits as well from the team focusing on only one driver.



#65 sportingcp

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:43

I don´t think the RB Junior is a waste dump, honestly I think it´s a good young driver program but sometimes they make weird and unfair decisions in my opinion like the one they made yesterday. I understand Felix da Costa didn´t had a great year especially if we take in consideration the expectations he created last season, but still he did enough to deserve that seat. I think it was kind of a "knife in the back" RB put on Da Costa because he was being prepared since 2012 and it was almost guaranteed he would get a seat in F1 (there were even some rumours he could be in already in 2013, mid-season), he even twitted something just before the announcement that seemed to indicate he would be announced (that was strange) and then this happens, totally unexpected. They should´ve given more time to Kyvat in my opinion even if he is that good. Vergne almost certainly will not continue in 2015 so they could give the 2014 seat to António and 2015 to partner him with Kyvat it would make more sense but money talks..

 

I still think there is an opportunity for António to get a seat in 2015, but he needs a very good season next year and his margin of error is 0 now. The ideal would be to enter in F1 with another team, after this episode, he shouldn´t forget this, but that´s not easy because he doesn´t bring money. Let´s see what will happen.  

 

PS: I found interesting that Robin Frijns twit something like I know your feel bro to António because he is indeed in a similar situation losing a possible seat to a Russian teenager, I´m sorry for him too.


Edited by sportingcp, 23 October 2013 - 09:44.


#66 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:52

I understand Felix da Costa didn´t had a great year especially if we take in consideration the expectations he created last season, but still he did enough to deserve that seat.

Obviously he didn't.  I agree with Red Bull on that, as well.  Seems like its Da Costa who needs more time, if anybody.



#67 RosannaG

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:06

PS: I found interesting that Robin Frijns twit something like I know your feel bro to António because he is indeed in a similar situation losing a possible seat to a Russian teenager, I´m sorry for him too.

 

I can understand both of them are, in some way, disappointed but there was only one seat and several candidates available, so Red Bull took the decision they thought was the best for the team. For sure, they have more data than any of us do.

 

Now, António and Robin must go on working hard and we'll see what happens in the future but nothing is lost for any of them.



#68 RB1

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:31

The Red Bull Junior Program is very good young driver program, which is looking for the best, not just good drivers. They have a habit of throwing their youngsters in the deep end and seeing if they can swim, if they can they throw them into a deeper pool with more waves, since most eventually sink then the program may seem like a waste dump. 

 

Felix da Costa had two and a bit years in GP3 and over one and a half years in Formula Renault 3.5. In that time he showed some decent performances but he seems to lack consistency. He seems like he could be a good driver but not great. So, I think Red Bull were right in this decision.

 

With Daniil Kvyat, he has had nearly one year in GP3 and is currently second in the championship, he has shown consistency and improvement through the year, he can swim. Now Red Bull are going to throw him into a deeper pool.

 

They did the same thing with Vettel and Jaime Alguersuari. One swam, one sunk. Harsh on the ones that don't make it but that is life.



#69 HoldenRT

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:52

It's really hard to compare STR drivers, with other drivers.. in terms of points or podiums.  There's only been one season that STR was capable of trully good results, and that was the season Vettel drove, and won that race.  Bourdais qualified top 3 in the same race.  To say for example, that Vergne or Riccairdo haven't scored a podium, therefore they are a failure.. sort of misunderstands F1 as a whole.  You can have strong results and show your worth, even while barely scoring points.  It depends on the car you are driving.  Redbull junior drivers are usually always driving STR cars, they are usually barely capable of scoring points.  For these sort of cars, it's more luck or circumstances that help to get them that podium anyway.  Piquet jr got a podium in a Renault didn't he?  Due to a lucky SC?  And Maldonado and Perez had some podiums last year.  But then in other situations, they seem more average.  This year Perez has seemed average.  Hard to define success of a driver in that way, unless you are talking about a car that is top 3, like Merc or Ferrari or Lotus.



#70 JRodrigues

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 11:11

 

Felix da Costa had two and a bit years in GP3 and over one and a half years in Formula Renault 3.5. In that time he showed some decent performances but he seems to lack consistency. He seems like he could be a good driver but not great. So, I think Red Bull were right in this decision.

 

His results since he joined RBJT:

 

GP3:

 

GBR
1 6

GER
Ret Ret

HUN
1 1

BEL
2 2

15 5

 

WSR3.5:

 

NÜR
9 11

MOS
7 15

SIL
5 2

HUN
4 1

LEC
1 2

CAT
1 1

MNZ
Ret 1

ALC
13 7

MON
5

SPA
2 4

MOS
2 Ret

RBR
7 Ret

HUN
Ret 1

LEC
1 3

CAT
4 13

 

last 23 races in WSR 11 podiums, 7 victories, 4 retirements. And the team this year was not up to the best standards (they didn't even put everything together on front suspension in Catalunya!)

 

Magnussen, Vandoorne and FdC against team-mates in WSR3.5 2013:

 

Mag - 274 Nato - 33 (8,3x more)

Van - 214 Webb - 27 (7,9x more)

FdC - 172 Fan - 14 (12,2x more)

 

I should also point out that I'm not a big fan od António. He seems to be a rich spoiled kid. But, I still think he deserved the seat.


Edited by JRodrigues, 23 October 2013 - 11:20.


#71 Henrik B

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 11:56

'First reaction? Yet another Red Bullshit decision that defies any kind of logic and leaves another huge talent on the waste dump.', was tweeted by Will Buxton yesterday, but I do wonder, is it really a waste dump?

 

 

Buxton isn't saying RB junior program is a waste dump, he's implying that what comes AFTER the RB program is a waste dump, and that da Costa is on it now.

 

That leaves out the fact that a vast majority of the RB young drivers wouldn't even get near a WSR or GP3 car without the Red Bull money. Frijns famously refused to join, look how good that has worked out for him?

 

From what I can remember, and feel free to correct me, NO ex-RB drivers have been picked up by other F1 teams. That would imply that other teams would make the same decisions RB does. That waste dump must be filled with "huge talents" for everyone to pick great drivers from, right? In the case of da Costa, I'm pretty sure RB would release him if another team came and asked for him.



#72 ReeVe

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:08

Buxton isn't saying RB junior program is a waste dump, he's implying that what comes AFTER the RB program is a waste dump, and that da Costa is on it now.

 

That leaves out the fact that a vast majority of the RB young drivers wouldn't even get near a WSR or GP3 car without the Red Bull money. Frijns famously refused to join, look how good that has worked out for him?

 

From what I can remember, and feel free to correct me, NO ex-RB drivers have been picked up by other F1 teams. That would imply that other teams would make the same decisions RB does. That waste dump must be filled with "huge talents" for everyone to pick great drivers from, right? In the case of da Costa, I'm pretty sure RB would release him if another team came and asked for him.

 

and the correct way to do it per Buxton would be what? Make sure everybody that joins the program has a job till their fourties and a nice retirement package after that?

 

those kids get a chance 99% of people doing or dreaming of doing motorsport never get, a free ride. At the end of the day pretty much half the seats in the current F1 grid are allocated by criteria that go nowhere near merit, hell even the mighty McLaren seems to be factoring in what money Perez can bring in before deciding on whether to retain him or not, are we sure we should be lambasting Red bull's decision process when we don't even have all the data and when we know for sure they pump a boatload of money into the sport, and not just F1, all across the spectrum



#73 Jackmancer

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:24

Buxton isn't saying RB junior program is a waste dump, he's implying that what comes AFTER the RB program is a waste dump, and that da Costa is on it now.

 

That leaves out the fact that a vast majority of the RB young drivers wouldn't even get near a WSR or GP3 car without the Red Bull money. Frijns famously refused to join, look how good that has worked out for him?

 

From what I can remember, and feel free to correct me, NO ex-RB drivers have been picked up by other F1 teams. That would imply that other teams would make the same decisions RB does. That waste dump must be filled with "huge talents" for everyone to pick great drivers from, right? In the case of da Costa, I'm pretty sure RB would release him if another team came and asked for him.

 

I think Mirko Bortolotti was picked up by Ferrari and Williams, for a short moment:
http://en.wikipedia....irko_Bortolotti
 


Edited by Jackmancer, 23 October 2013 - 12:25.


#74 Junky

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:43

Buxton isn't saying RB junior program is a waste dump, he's implying that what comes AFTER the RB program is a waste dump, and that da Costa is on it now.

 

 

The funny part of what you say, is that in the post season WSBR testing, Sainz Jr was driving DAMS - Magnussen's car - and today Felix da Costa will drive...Carlin. 



#75 PNSD

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 13:48

The problem is more to do with how these drivers perform in an F1 car. Look at Kobayashi. He was pretty average in lower series, yet in an F1 car he was pretty quick IMO. Quick enough to still deserve a seat. And quick to be a Ferrari factory driver in sportscars!

 

Klien... I was a big fan of his. Huge talent in lower series and not too shabby in F1. It's just he hadn't got that special thing. His record after F1 isn't amazing but he was one of the guys at the top of the list for Pug's sports cars.

 

Luizzi is a funny one. Promised so much with a world championship in karting and his lower series record is pretty decent too. His trouble was that IMO he believed his own hype and didn't work hard enough. Capable of achieving more than he did IMO.

 

Chandhok and Narain, despite being good drivers were selected purely from a marketing perspective. That much is obvious.

 

And Scott Speed... Well. Wow. Again marketing for RB only. I mean he is surely up there as one of the biggest wastes of space in motorsport. Never rated him.



#76 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 15:33

And Scott Speed... Well. Wow. Again marketing for RB only. I mean he is surely up there as one of the biggest wastes of space in motorsport. Never rated him.

 

He totally deserved his F1 opportunity.  Dominated in FR2.0 and then had a very respectable stint in GP2 the year after against quality competition.



#77 Anderis

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 16:43

From what I can remember, and feel free to correct me, NO ex-RB drivers have been picked up by other F1 teams.

Liuzzi was picked up by Force India. :)



#78 PSM

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 22:44

Letter sent to the RedBull Junior Team from a friend and I subscribe entierly...

Dear friends from Red Bull,
I regret enourmously that the appointment for 2014 driver of Toro Rosso F1 Team hasn´t been the excellent  22 year old portuguese  driver Antonio Félix da Costa.
The appointment of the junior driver Daniil Kvyat sends the message that, for Red Bull,  hard-working and good performance are not enough to be recognized  as the best.
Antonio has been proving he is an excellent and very competitive driver but, Red Bull decided to accept the oil dollars from Russia as more important.  Danii is  a good but very young and immature driver.
Looking forward to seeing Red Bull providing an alternative for Antonio Felix da Costa to continue is brilliant carreer,
Best regards
João Barroso



#79 scheivlak

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 22:53

Well, the grapes have turned sour pretty early. I don't think I'll buy some Portuguese wine for a while   ;)



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#80 PSM

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 23:01

Not that early... They still one of finest in the world.....



#81 DanardiF1

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 23:44

Not choosing Da Costa on his FR3.5 season would be more sensible if Red Bull put their drivers in decent teams in that series. Arden didn't put Da Costa's front suspension together properly in Catalunya, and their other driver finished 21st in the championship with only 14 points. Hardly a consistent front-running outfit for Red Bull's F1 hope to be gunning for the title in...

 

I just don't see how Kyvat is more deserving of a drive in F1 than Da Costa. He has one title, in FR2.0 Alps against a field of literally nobodies. The current GP3 grid isn't the most electrifying outside the top 5 drivers... it's not a patch on the FR3.5 field which at the front of the grid is one of the strongest in it's recent history, or even the GP2 lot which is a poor grid for it's previous standards as well.

 

Da Costa also has more miles under his belt in F1 machinery, something Kyvat could've done something about had he not binned the Toro Rosso after 22 laps at Silverstone earlier this year...

 

I know there must be something that has convinced Red Bull otherwise, but I really think they've made a mistake here. I don't think the Junior programme is that good really anyway, it's got lucky with Vettel (but considering his success it seems like he would've made it to F1 regardless... either with BMW or another team), but the others have largely been average both in junior series and when they got to F1. McLaren seem to have a decent programme, in having very few drivers but more of a dedication to success at each level, just as Hamilton had to earn his way up the ladder so do Magnussen and Vandoorne. Red Bull drivers don't seem to need titles (or certainly the bigger ones) beyond national F3 titles (Ricciardo, Vergne, Alguersuari) or Formula Renault (2.0, not 3.5 where finishing in the top 5 has been enough, except for Da Costa now it seems). These series are good proving grounds but if other drivers are beating the Red Bull ones how are they more worthy of F1 seats? Surely the program is designed to make them the best, by giving them access to thing the other drivers could only dream of like F1 tests, hefty simulator work and engineering assistance from the F1 team?



#82 V3TT3L

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 23:56

'RedBull is a drinks company' Lewis Hamilton.

 

Where can they possibly sell more ?

In Portugal or Russia ? 

Hard call for ya ?  :wave:



#83 DanardiF1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 00:07

'RedBull is a drinks company' Lewis Hamilton.

 

Where can they possibly sell more ?

In Portugal or Russia ? 

Hard call for ya ?  :wave:

 

Well then what's the point of a young driver program at all?

 

Also, I think Europe and therefore most of Russia is pretty saturated in Red Bull... Vodka-Red Bull is probably the most popular drink in European nightclubs.



#84 Andrew Hope

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 00:21

Blah blah blah, Red Bull is a drinks company.

 

Sort of like how JPS/Camel/Gold Leaf was a cigarettes company, right? Lotus didn't seem to mind all those years they kicked the shit out of Ferrari, McLaren and every other precious proper racing team.

 



#85 V3TT3L

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 00:22

Well then what's the point of a young driver program at all?

 

Also, I think Europe and therefore most of Russia is pretty saturated in Red Bull... Vodka-Red Bull is probably the most popular drink in European nightclubs.

Well... when drivers are equivalent, the market nationality is a handicap.



#86 Option1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:02

Here's a thought, perhaps Red Bull thinks the young Russian is the better bet to be a successful driver and the choice was made that way.  I know, I know, it's a horrible thing for some to contemplate...

 

Neil



#87 X61

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:13

Here's a thought, perhaps Red Bull thinks the young Russian is the better bet to be a successful driver and the choice was made that way.  I know, I know, it's a horrible thing for some to contemplate...

 

Neil

This is the internet, logic is not welcome here.



#88 Andrew Hope

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:15

Here's a thought, perhaps Red Bull thinks the young Russian is the better bet to be a successful driver and the choice was made that way.  I know, I know, it's a horrible thing for some to contemplate...

 

Neil

B-b-b-b-ut Russian is evil and is taking over F1! No country should be giving a driver billions of dollars to steal race seats*!

 

*Except Brazil, Argentina, Italy, USA, England, Scotland, France, Belgium, and all the other countries who's gigantic companies have ensured race seats for F1 drivers, for the past 60 years i.e all of F1's entire existence.

 

Apart from ALL OF THOSE PLACES, Russia is evil. What's that? Vitaly Petrov is better and richer than a dozen of the other drivers rumored to be in F1 next year, and therefore would be a smarter choice than a lot of other youngsters it's trendy to love right now?

 

God damn communism.



#89 V3TT3L

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:29

Here's a thought, perhaps Red Bull thinks the young Russian is the better bet to be a successful driver and the choice was made that way.  I know, I know, it's a horrible thing for some to contemplate...

 

Neil

F1 is not that simple.  :o

Bernie wants an american driver in F1.

Therefore he hooks a Russian drivers as a bait, knowing that they are arch rivals since... forever.

That will atract an american driver in a mission to prove they are the best, kind of Ford and the le Mans thing.



#90 Option1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:33

But you left out the Chinese angle, equivalent to Ferrari in the Ford/le Mans analogy, whereby the Chinese are used to entice a driver from the Congo who in turn....  Awww crap, my head exploded!  Again!!

 

Neil



#91 fabr68

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:22

Even if Toro Rosso comes up with a racing god that wins consistenly with that car, where are they going to put him?  Next to Vettel?  no way.

 

Right now Red Bull's program is a no. 2 driver generator, nothing more nothing less.   Their driver lineup matches that.



#92 lbennie

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 04:59

Even if Toro Rosso comes up with a racing god that wins consistenly with that car, where are they going to put him?  Next to Vettel?  no way.

 

Right now Red Bull's program is a no. 2 driver generator, nothing more nothing less.   Their driver lineup matches that.

 

Why would they spend millions on a program funding all these drivers in the lower categories, if they were really just after solid no 2's?

They have the best car and designer, surely they could just sign one from elsewhere in the paddock when the need arises, every driver in the paddock wants to be in that car.

 

 

What a ridiculous post.


Edited by lbennie, 25 October 2013 - 05:00.


#93 DanardiF1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:22

This is the internet, logic is not welcome here.

 

Is Helmut Marko connected directly to the internet as well... because he doesn't display the most logical thought patterns either. Since Vettel came on the scene he's had eyes only for him and seemingly scant regard for just about every other driver to pass through his program. Nobody was given the same time and attention that Vettel had in his junior career by Marko, with probably Ricciardo a distant 2nd.



#94 V3TT3L

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 06:20

What do you expect from RedBull ToroRosso ?

Provide 4 WDC in the same year ?

It won't happen  :o



#95 marcoferrari

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 06:33

There's no doubt its a dog-eat-dog world and a highly competitive environment, but let's not forget that the promotion of Ricciardo means that all four RB drivers came from their junior programme. I mean, I thought the double sacking of Buemi and Alguersuari was harsh but really, were either going to be world champion? Then they brought in Ricciardo and I think he's done a better job than either of the aforementioned. RB aren't interested in mediocrity, they don't want solid points scorers. They want future world champions, so their decision does not surprise me. Indeed, if anything I am surprised by the loyalty they have shown to Vergne - I think I'd have been inclined to bring in Da Costa alongside him for next season.

 

What I do think, however, is that they handle these drivers too young. I think they'll need a terrific man-management to look after Kvyat. It's very young to become a world sports star, and at that age I suspect the pressure can just break you. I felt the same wit Alguersuari - these guys were probably a full ten years from their peak when they entered F1, and their age needs to be kept in mind when evaluating their performances.

Please, what are you talking about? Ricciardo's results ARE NOT better than those of ALG and BUE... That is a FACT... He has no wins, no podiums, no regular point finishes and has scored overall less points than ALG and BUE during their STR time... This year Tost wanted 6th place in Constructors and they are only 8th, so that is hardly a signal of Ricciardo/Vergne "overperforming" the car... 


Edited by marcoferrari, 25 October 2013 - 06:36.


#96 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 08:11

Please, what are you talking about? Ricciardo's results ARE NOT better than those of ALG and BUE... That is a FACT... He has no wins, no podiums, no regular point finishes and has scored overall less points than ALG and BUE during their STR time... This year Tost wanted 6th place in Constructors and they are only 8th, so that is hardly a signal of Ricciardo/Vergne "overperforming" the car... 

 

 

Well if the car isn't better than that .... 

 

Luca Montezemolo wanted 1st place in both WCC and WDC and they will not get that. So Alonso/Massa is hardly overperforming the Ferrari are they? 



#97 lbennie

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:40

Please, what are you talking about? Ricciardo's results ARE NOT better than those of ALG and BUE... That is a FACT... He has no wins, no podiums, no regular point finishes and has scored overall less points than ALG and BUE during their STR time... This year Tost wanted 6th place in Constructors and they are only 8th, so that is hardly a signal of Ricciardo/Vergne "overperforming" the car... 

 

Ric is miles ahead of bue & alg, according to torro rosso & red bull engineers. They think vergne is a better prospect than either aswell.

 

Tost wanted 6th place when he had no idea how the car would stack up. Ric has no business being up with the saubers & mclarens, Yet hes doing it week after week.


Edited by lbennie, 29 October 2013 - 01:49.


#98 dau

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:29

Please, what are you talking about? Ricciardo's results ARE NOT better than those of ALG and BUE... That is a FACT... He has no wins, no podiums, no regular point finishes and has scored overall less points than ALG and BUE during their STR time... This year Tost wanted 6th place in Constructors and they are only 8th, so that is hardly a signal of Ricciardo/Vergne "overperforming" the car... 

God, seriously. He's gone. He'll never come back. EVER. It's time to let go, dude.



#99 seahawk

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:33

And ALG is probably happy about it. His heart was more in his DJ job than in racing.