100 replies to this topic

[jimjimjeroo]

Is this statistic worthless? Not to detract from Alonso's achievement, but the points accrued over the last few years since the scoring system change probably equal the amount of points scored before hand! Of course a much smaller percentage of points scored by Schumacher were of the new system to, but still, I don't think it really equates fairly, maybe if FA hits 2000 points then it'll be more of an accomplishment

[fabr68]

How about the championships won on 6-race seasons? or when drivers were on their 40s?

If you nit pick on what is valuable or not you end up with every "record" in question.

Given that teams get paid based on points, scoring points do have value.

Michael Schumacher participated in the new point system. Although it can be argued he did not enjoy the best car in 2010-2012, didnt do Alonso in 2001-2003.

[SealTheDiffuser]

"pointless" record, but nice helmet though...

 

 

[KWSN - DSM]

Recalculate all drivers using the same points system through all years, then you will end with at least something comparable. 1571 is a number with no meaning, same as when NBC Sports the past 3 races have been talking about how Renault as many Pole Positions as Ferrari in, as if there have been equally many race starts by a Renault engined car and a Ferrari engined car. I am certain that there have been more Renault engined cars starting a Grand Epreuve than Ferrari engined cars, even if Ferrari had a 30 year headstart.

 

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 23 October 2013 - 20:06.

[Jackmancer]

Jimjimjeroo you answered your own question. It wasn't really a question after all, and I wonder why you had to make a new topic for it.

[jimjimjeroo]

Just interested to see what you guys think, people on here have strong opinions about these kind of things, is that ok...?

[scheivlak]

It could be seen as an insult to Michael, and to Alain Prost as well I guess, but to me it's even more a case of "C'mon Nando, now who do you think you're fooling?"

 

A positive effect is that it triggered me find out what really happened in the battle of Lepanto 

Edited by scheivlak, 23 October 2013 - 20:29.

[RealRacing]

Come on, the guy needs a consolation prize at least...

[KWSN - DSM]

So who will calculate everyone?

 

[Boxerevo]

You should be proud when you break some mark,BUT life goes on and one day someone will come and beat it,its the human nature...nothing last forever.

 

Its good that Alonso is happy to show some results of his career.

 

Edited by Boxerevo, 23 October 2013 - 20:29.

[RosannaG]

It could be seen as an insult to Michael, and to Alain Prost as well I guess, but to me it's even more a case of "C'mon Nando, now who do you think you're fooling?"

 

A positive effect is that it triggered me find out what really happened in the battle of Lepanto 

 

Funny because the first thing that came to my mind when I heard 1571 was the Battle of Lepanto. 

 

Perhaps it's his tribute to Miguel de Cervantes... 

[jstrains]

The Commodore 1571 was Commodore's high-end 5¼" floppy disk drive.

[SebnandoKimilton]

So who will calculate everyone?

 

 

 

 

1 Schumacher    3890

2 Prost               2483

3 Alonso            2414

4 Barrichello      1897

5 Raikkonen      1882

6 Senna            1881

7 Coulthard       1726

8 Piquet            1684

9 Button            1683

10 Vettel           1541

11 Mansell        1509

12 Hamilton      1452

13 Berger         1417

14 Hakkinen     1382

15 Lauda          1341

16 Massa         1328

17 Webber       1311

18 Reutemann 1131

19 Stewart        1109

20 Patrese       1105

 

Here is the top 20 when all drivers results converted into the modern points system.

 

I take no credit for this, I saw this on another forum I lurk on, I added Korea and Japan's results however. I believe the person who's work this is also posts here, joshb.

 

So I hope he doesnt mind me posting his workings.

Edited by SebnandoKimilton, 23 October 2013 - 20:49.

[scheivlak]

 

 

Perhaps it's his tribute to Miguel de Cervantes... 

How nice would it be if he changed all that samurai talk for a tribute to "el ingenioso hidalgo de la Mancha"  

And we don't have to look very far for his Sancho Panza 

 

Now, what is a donkey in Spanish or Italian?

[MikeV1987]

Sort of meaningless with all the different point systems over the years, but whatever floats his boat I guess.

[Fontainebleau]

How about the championships won on 6-race seasons? or when drivers were on their 40s?

If you nit pick on what is valuable or not you end up with every "record" in question.

Given that teams get paid based on points, scoring points do have value.

Michael Schumacher participated in the new point system. Although it can be argued he did not enjoy the best car in 2010-2012, didnt do Alonso in 2001-2003.

 

That is actually a very good point. If people want to be totally accurate, just adjusting by the points awarded on a specific season would not be enough, measures should be included to compensate for the number of races.

 

In any case, one thing is undeniable: if you go to the official F1 page (formula1.com) and start adding the official points awarded to each driver, Alonso will come on top. I can understand that he is happy about it, even if he is fully aware of the changes over the years in terms of number of races and points awarded. And if the guy wants to celebrate it with a helmet, what's wrong with that?

[RosannaG]

How nice would it be if he changed all that samurai talk for a tribute to "el ingenioso hidalgo de la Mancha"  

And we don't have to look very far for his Sancho Panza 

 

Now, what is a donkey in Spanish or Italian?*

 

Absolutely... 

 

A donkey in Spanish is burro or asno and in Italian is somaro or asino. 

 

* You wanted the translation, right? 

[scheivlak]

 

 

A donkey in Spanish is burro or asno and in Italian is somaro or asino. 

 

* You wanted the translation, right? 

Yep, of course we know that Ferrari stands for 'il cavallino rampante' but Rocinante is not always up to its fame and at times Fernando has to master a burro like Sancho Massa has to do 

Edited by scheivlak, 23 October 2013 - 22:08.

[RosannaG]

Yep, of course we know that Ferrari stands for 'il cavallino rampante' but Rocinante is not always up to its fame and at times Fernando has to master a burro like Sancho Massa 

 

I thought you were talking about the car and you wanted to swith from a Cavallino to an Asino...

Edited by RosannaG, 23 October 2013 - 22:02.

[Kingshark]

Here is the top 20 when all drivers results converted into the modern points system.

 

4 Barrichello      1897

5 Raikkonen      1882

6 Senna            1881

 

Barrichello and Raikkonen ahead of Senna? That was a massive surprise. 

[scheivlak]

I thought you were talking about the car and you wanted to swith from a Cavallino to an Asino...

Oops, clarified a bit 

[scheivlak]

Barrichello and Raikkonen ahead of Senna? That was a massive surprise. 

There can only be one top Brazilian ;-)

[George Costanza]

Jeez, Michael has nearly 3900 points.... If we take today's system.... that is incredbile.  I don't think Fernando will top that.

[RosannaG]

Oops, clarified a bit 

 

   

 

[Radoye]

Barrichello and Raikkonen ahead of Senna? That was a massive surprise. 

 

Why?

 

Kimi contested 30 more races than Senna, Barrichello had twice as many.

[sennafan24]

Why?

 

Kimi contested 30 more races than Senna, Barrichello had twice as many.

Also, think of the cars Rubens had during the Ferrari years, 2002 and 2004 in paticular were gold for racking up points.

[PoleMan]

1 Schumacher    3890

2 Prost               2483

3 Alonso            2414

4 Barrichello      1897

5 Raikkonen      1882

6 Senna            1881

7 Coulthard       1726

8 Piquet            1684

9 Button            1683

10 Vettel           1541

11 Mansell        1509

12 Hamilton      1452

13 Berger         1417

14 Hakkinen     1382

15 Lauda          1341

16 Massa         1328

17 Webber       1311

18 Reutemann 1131

19 Stewart        1109

20 Patrese       1105

 

Here is the top 20 when all drivers results converted into the modern points system.

 

I take no credit for this, I saw this on another forum I lurk on, I added Korea and Japan's results however. I believe the person who's work this is also posts here, joshb.

 

So I hope he doesnt mind me posting his workings.

 

Congratulations Fernando! As others have stated, the numbers are what the numbers are...and they are OFFICIAL!

 

But what I really find interesting is how close Alonso is to second even on the conversion without having the dominant cars that Schumi and Prost had. Prost raced until age 38 and Michael into his 40s, so there is time yet for Nando to even win in the "We Don't Like Alonso Equalized Points Scoring System!"    

[Brother Fox]

Barrichello and Raikkonen ahead of Senna? That was a massive surprise. 

 

A long career though a period with long seasons explains it pretty well.

 

Hasnt Rubens participated in something silly like 1/3 of all formula 1 races

[Nitropower]

Jimjimjeroo you answered your own question. It wasn't really a question after all, and I wonder why you had to make a new topic for it.

 Do not worry. If you do not think the thread is useful, sooner or later a forum administrator will come and close the thread anyway. You just need to slightly deviate from topic and tuduh! thread closed. Going off-topic drives them crazy!

 

On topic, I think it's just another statistic, but he achieved it on merit, and no one else achieved it. Rules change very often so records are difficult to compare but they're still valuable.

[Suntrek]

1 Schumacher    3890

2 Prost               2483

3 Alonso            2414

4 Barrichello      1897

5 Raikkonen      1882

6 Senna            1881

7 Coulthard       1726

8 Piquet            1684

9 Button            1683

10 Vettel           1541

11 Mansell        1509

12 Hamilton      1452

13 Berger         1417

14 Hakkinen     1382

15 Lauda          1341

16 Massa         1328

17 Webber       1311

18 Reutemann 1131

19 Stewart        1109

20 Patrese       1105

 

Here is the top 20 when all drivers results converted into the modern points system.

 

I take no credit for this, I saw this on another forum I lurk on, I added Korea and Japan's results however. I believe the person who's work this is also posts here, joshb.

 

So I hope he doesnt mind me posting his workings.

 

How are the points calculated for the oldtimers, though? Pre-1991 not all race results counted towards the championship. Are for example Prost's and Senna's points calculated from their original points tally or from their factual race results? For the list to be completely fair all their race results should be included when converting to modern points.

[aditya-now]

Jeez, Michael has nearly 3900 points.... If we take today's system.... that is incredbile.  I don't think Fernando will top that.

 

If Fernando has 5 seasons scoring 300 points each, or 7,4 seasons scoring 200 points each, he will be there. Monumental task, no question.

 

 

SebnandoKimilton, on 23 Oct 2013 - 22:47, said:

 

1 Schumacher    3890

2 Prost               2483

3 Alonso            2414

4 Barrichello      1897

5 Raikkonen      1882

6 Senna            1881

7 Coulthard       1726

8 Piquet            1684

9 Button            1683

10 Vettel           1541

11 Mansell        1509

12 Hamilton      1452

13 Berger         1417

14 Hakkinen     1382

15 Lauda          1341

16 Massa         1328

17 Webber       1311

18 Reutemann 1131

19 Stewart        1109

20 Patrese       1105

 

Here is the top 20 when all drivers results converted into the modern points system.

 

I take no credit for this, I saw this on another forum I lurk on, I added Korea and Japan's results however. I believe the person who's work this is also posts here, joshb.

 

 

Thanks, Sebnando Kimilton, thanks, joshb!

 

Very interesting and no doubt a lot of work to get all these numbers together. Also goes to show where Seb is in absolute terms. I am amazed to see Carlos Reutemann up there, ahead of Jackie Stewart. A pity he never won a WDC....

[Brother Fox]

How are the points calculated for the oldtimers, though? Pre-1991 not all race results counted towards the championship. Are for example Prost's and Senna's points calculated from their original points tally or from their factual race results? For the list to be completely fair all their race results should be included when converting to modern points.

 

I suggest we keep trying different ways until we get Senna to the top

[fabr68]

 

Here is the top 20 when all drivers results converted into the modern points system.

 

 

That does not make sense.

 

Then go back and recalculate all the world championships won in the modern point system.   The number of won championships will change per driver as well It will make it a clusterfu%~

 

If anything, Alonso's record is showing how much screwup to the rating system is caused by changing point systems over the years.

 

In any case it does not matter.  What is official is official, right?

 

Or are we going to discount old results/recount new results based on each season rule change?

[Rybo]

Congratulations Fernando! As others have stated, the numbers are what the numbers are...and they are OFFICIAL!
 
But what I really find interesting is how close Alonso is to second even on the conversion without having the dominant cars that Schumi and Prost had. Prost raced until age 38 and Michael into his 40s, so there is time yet for Nando to even win in the "We Don't Like Alonso Equalized Points Scoring System!"

No one is saying Fernando is undeserving, just that the system is skewed and flawed. I can only imagine how Prost feels, he raced with Lauda, Senna, Mansell, and the elder Piquet among other and bested them all, just to see it all come down not 20 years later.

Time does not stop moving and F1 is moving at an every rapid pace. Everyone will get left behind at some point.

[Zava]

How are the points calculated for the oldtimers, though? Pre-1991 not all race results counted towards the championship. Are for example Prost's and Senna's points calculated from their original points tally or from their factual race results? For the list to be completely fair all their race results should be included when converting to modern points.

I guess it is calculated like this: you open statsf1.com, go to the driver's page, look at race results, count the number of finishes in each position, and go like SUM = 91*25 + 21*18 + 43*15 + ...

or visit f1-facts.com, go to regulations page, look up every year the driver competed, SUM = '2001 points' + '2003 points' + '2004 points' ...

 

I did both recently to calculate Schumacher's points in 9-6-4 system, one of those came up with 1245, the other 1244. either one of the pages is slightly off, or I cocked up 

[PayasYouRace]

1 Schumacher    3890

2 Prost               2483

3 Alonso            2414

4 Barrichello      1897

5 Raikkonen      1882

6 Senna            1881

7 Coulthard       1726

8 Piquet            1684

9 Button            1683

10 Vettel           1541

11 Mansell        1509

12 Hamilton      1452

13 Berger         1417

14 Hakkinen     1382

15 Lauda          1341

16 Massa         1328

17 Webber       1311

18 Reutemann 1131

19 Stewart        1109

20 Patrese       1105

 

Here is the top 20 when all drivers results converted into the modern points system.

 

I take no credit for this, I saw this on another forum I lurk on, I added Korea and Japan's results however. I believe the person who's work this is also posts here, joshb.

 

So I hope he doesnt mind me posting his workings.

 

Now normalise that per races per year. Bit silly when Fangio and Moss only did 6-8 points awarding races per year and current drivers do 2-3 times that.

[SebnandoKimilton]

That does not make sense.

 

Then go back and recalculate all the world championships won in the modern point system.   The number of won championships will change per driver as well It will make it a clusterfu%~

 

If anything, Alonso's record is showing how much screwup to the rating system is caused by changing point systems over the years.

 

In any case it does not matter.  What is official is official, right?

 

Or are we going to discount old results/recount new results based on each season rule change?

Your being defensive when theres no need to be, i just thought those would be relevant here as someone had asked for them.

 

Im not trying to discount Fernando's achievment, I think he should celebrate it.

 

& yes changing old results to the new point systems would change the end result of the championship, im not sure on all the changes but IIRC Prost would have won in '83 '84 & '88 making him a 7 time WDC.

Edited by SebnandoKimilton, 24 October 2013 - 08:31.

[Fontainebleau]

Your being defensive when theres no need to be, i just thought those would be relevant here as someone had asked for them.

 

Im not trying to discount Fernando's achievment, I think he should celebrate it.

 

& yes changing old results to the new point systems would change the end result of the championship, im not sure on all the changes but IIRC Prost would have won in '83 '84 & '88 making him a 7 time WDC.

I am sure next time somebody talks about Schumi's record of WDCs somebody will point that out and request a re-assessment!

 

But for the time being it is what it is: Schumacher is the driver with most WDCs, Alonso is the driver with most WDC points and Prost is, in my humble opinion, the best WDC ever. I think that the three of them have good reasons to celebrate

[aditya-now]

I am sure next time somebody talks about Schumi's record of WDCs somebody will point that out and request a re-assessment!

 

But for the time being it is what it is: Schumacher is the driver with most WDCs, Alonso is the driver with most WDC points and Prost is, in my humble opinion, the best WDC ever. I think that the three of them have good reasons to celebrate

 

And Senna was unlucky to have been killed, lest he would be ahead of Barrichello and Raikkonen.... 

[SebnandoKimilton]

I am sure next time somebody talks about Schumi's record of WDCs somebody will point that out and request a re-assessment!

 

But for the time being it is what it is: Schumacher is the driver with most WDCs, Alonso is the driver with most WDC points and Prost is, in my humble opinion, the best WDC ever. I think that the three of them have good reasons to celebrate

Actually on the subject of Schumacher, Damon Hill would have won in 1994 with 248 points to Schumachers 236 with the current points system. Thanks for jogging my memory!

 

I also rate Prost very highly, possibly the greatest ever in my opinion.

[Spillage]

Most points is a meaningless statistic IMO, especially as it isn't even recalculated to account for the other points systems.

 

Most wins perhaps, most titles certainly, but in my opinion most points is hardly worth shouting about.

[Collombin]

 

& yes changing old results to the new point systems would change the end result of the championship, im not sure on all the changes but IIRC Prost would have won in '83 '84 & '88 making him a 7 time WDC.

 

1983? I doubt it very much.

 

Alonso's points record is one of the most pointless (ho ho) records to celebrate, completely meaningless even to statisticians I suspect.

 

It had a bit more merit pre-1991 perhaps, but even then there were still the issues of changes in the point system, numbers of races, reliability of cars, etc etc.

[SebnandoKimilton]

1983? I doubt it very much.

 

Prost & Piquet would be tied on 183 points each but Prost had 4 wins to Piquet's 3, making him champion.

[Collombin]

Prost & Piquet would be tied on 183 points each but Prost had 4 wins to Piquet's 3, making him champion.

 

You walked right into the trap.

 

This is exactly why you cannot retrospectively apply alternative points systems without extreme caution. Piquet would have had 4 wins too.

[7MGTEsup]

Maybe a better statistic would be points per start? Because most points just means you had a long career with most modern drivers going well past 200 grand prix. I remember when Patrese passed 200 and everyone though that was a massive mile stone and now 300 has been passed.

[Collombin]

Maybe a better statistic would be points per start? Because most points just means you had a long career with most modern drivers going well past 200 grand prix. I remember when Patrese passed 200 and everyone though that was a massive mile stone and now 300 has been passed.

 

Careful, or someone will end up proclaiming George Amick the best "F1" driver ever

[7MGTEsup]

Careful, or someone will end up proclaiming George Amick the best "F1" driver ever

 

Well maybe link the 2 stats some how so a driver who did 1 grand prix and scored well doesn't look like a driving god lol.

[sopa]

Barrichello and Raikkonen ahead of Senna? That was a massive surprise. 

 

Current point system values consistency. Back in Senna's era not only were there fewer races, but also worse reliability. It is entirely possible Barrichello's distant seconds in 2002 or 2004 yielded him more points than some Senna's championship challenging campaigns, which was littered with DNFs along with victories.

 

But if we re-calculate the stats to 10-6-4-3-2-1 system, then I am pretty sure Senna is a long way ahead of Barrichello, probably Raikkonen too. Because Senna has after all 41 wins against Barrichello's 11. And 10-6 system values winning instead of consistency 

[Suntrek]

I suggest we keep trying different ways until we get Senna to the top

No I'm not in the least concerned about getting Senna to the top. If anything the point in my post would benefit Prost.

 

We all of course know how points systems through times have changed in absurdum

 

http://en.wikipedia....scoring_systems

 

But that said - the vast majority of Alonso points was scored under the old (not so very old in fact - but points system in MS heyday - can't expect forum memory further that that)

 

Alonso has scored 757 points so far under modern points system. So say it's just the modern points system that benefits him is stupid.

Edited by Suntrek, 24 October 2013 - 12:37.

[Collombin]

If there is such a thing as a "rightful" holder of a particular record, then this one (that implies a combination of success and longevity) should only belong to Schumi.

 

That's not to say he is the best driver there's ever been (he wouldn't be in my top half dozen), but nobody has had so much sustained success over such a long period.

 

(His poles record on the other hand "should" be Senna's, again based on what that record implies, but that's veering OT).

 

At least an aggregate wins/poles/WDCs record can legitimately be celebrated for the achievement that it is, but for Alonso to be sufficiently proud of this points record (which has been achieved by adding apples and pears) to put it on his helmet seems utterly bizarre. Be proud of your great wins and championships, not some farcical stat that is misleading and vacuous.