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Vettel : "Not Afraid of Top Team Mate"


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#151 cartmann

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:18

Yes because thats a great yardstick of talent isn't it, a run round an old airfield in a production saloon car with times recorded by a bloke and a stopwatch  :lol:

 

He'll be known for lots of things i suspect, but probably mostly for being a 4 times (at least) WDC and taking the F1 world by storm, obliterating many records along the way.

 

If you disagree, I enjoin you to start a pole, and dance around it until you come to your senses.  :up:

I got a better idea what you could do with said pole.



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#152 RealRacing

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:19

Yes because thats a great yardstick of talent isn't it, a run round an old airfield in a production saloon car with times recorded by a bloke and a stopwatch  :lol:

 

He'll be known for lots of things i suspect, but probably mostly for being a 4 times (at least) WDC and taking the F1 world by storm, obliterating many records along the way.

 

If you disagree, I enjoin you to start a pole, and dance around it until you come to your senses.  :up:

What do you mean? Top Gear is the closest to a spec series there is  ;)



#153 cartmann

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:23

What do you mean? Top Gear is the closest to a spec series there is  ;)

Closest you will get Vettel driving outside his safety blanket.



#154 Taxi

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:23



At the time the option were Senna or Piquet. Today it is obvious he made the wrong choice, but at the time not so much. Piquet were a 3xWDC and was known by playing the politics very well while Senna where a youngster considered pretty fast. Prost thought he would have a much easier life against Senna.

 

After 88-89 Prost made sure to never have Senna as a teammate again. And he chose well, because if he had faced Senna in 93 when Senna was at the top of his game, and he was well past his, it would have damage his reputation by a lot.

 

Still, everyone has Prost at their top 5 drivers of all time.

 

Pretty much this. Piquet was like a daemon compared to Senna. Prost knew he would have a very hard life at Macca being alongside a driver who could match him in politics, development skills, and race pace. He didn't want this. 

 

We all know he probably made the wrong choice [I say probably because people underestimate Piquet a lot as WDC are not won on pole positions but on Sunday races and he was mega at that] but at the time,  Prost thought Senna was easier to handle. It's was a bit like Alonso chosing between pairing Raikkonen or Rosberg/Hulkemberg. 



#155 Kyo

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:24

Not being selective. How many years have Vettel, Kimi and Alonso beaten their team mates? I think Lewis the most over hyped driver.

Well, over a season

Lewis was beaten by Button.

Kimi by Heidfeld and Massa.

Alonso by Tarso Marques and Hamilton.

Vettel by ????.



#156 PoleMan

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:25

Seb says he isn't AFRAID to face another of the acknowledged F1 superstars, and that may well be true, but I think it's his PREFERENCE to not drive against them. Vettel is obsessed with stats and records, and sharing any stable with a driver who just might be better than you, would undercut his ability to keep racking up the numbers. Sort of a double-edged sword: face them and get beaten, then he was never as good as he appeared. Continue to be seen as dodging them, and the statistics he takes so much pride in will be lower in value. That's just my belief, so the Vettelistas need not pounce. I'm aware others, including Seb himself, apparently, think he doesn't need to do any more. All I will say is that a drivers legacy is more than acquiring incredible stats. Exhibit A on that is Michael Schumacher, who is rarely rated the best in any "greatest driver" poll despite his Best-Ever numbers. HOW you achieved those numbers, and comparisons with other equipment/driver talent, will matter just as much, if not more.  

 

To Sebastian's credit, I think his driving continues to get better. This year, I believe, has been his best ever. Yes, he has a car advantage, but with that also comes IMMENSE PRESSURE TO DELIVER. He's done that four years on the trot, which is no small feat. He's a very special talent. How special? I'm with those who say we won't know until he can replicate it somewhere, or faces drivers who are rated equal or better than him. Red Bull have done his legacy no favors by passing on acquiring his 3 main rivals when they were available. 


Edited by PoleMan, 26 October 2013 - 15:34.


#157 MikeV1987

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:29

Same shit, different pile here.



#158 sennafan24

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:29

Well, over a season

Lewis was beaten by Button.

Kimi by Heidfeld and Massa.

Alonso by Tarso Marques and Hamilton.

Vettel by ????.

D.C also beat Kimi in their first year.

 

Even though I spend half my time defending Seb on this forum, if you look at relative performance Webber and Seb were closely matched for the first two seasons (with Seb having a slight edge) I think a degree of luck should be inserted in that list other than Lewis vs Jenson in 2011. Plus Seb has not faced the variety of teammates the others have had, but that is through no fault of his own.

 

Which is why I am looking forward to Seb vs Riccardo next year.


Edited by sennafan24, 26 October 2013 - 15:30.


#159 Kyo

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:31



 

Pretty much this. Piquet was like a daemon compared to Senna. Prost knew he would have a very hard life at Macca being alongside a driver who could match him in politics, development skills, and race pace. He didn't want this. 

 

We all know he probably made the wrong choice [I say probably because people underestimate Piquet a lot as WDC are not won on pole positions but on Sunday races and he was mega at that] but at the time,  Prost thought Senna was easier to handle. It's was a bit like Alonso chosing between pairing Raikkonen or Rosberg/Hulkemberg. 

A Piquet-Prost pairing would had been amazing, but not after Piquet's accident in 87... Just my opinion.



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#160 cartmann

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:31

 

 

Which is why I am looking forward to Seb vs Riccardo next year.

The all conquering..



#161 Taxi

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:33

Well, over a season

Lewis was beaten by Button.

Kimi by Heidfeld and Massa.

Alonso by Tarso Marques and Hamilton.[and Trulli 2004]

Vettel by ????.

 

Improved your post. 



#162 sennafan24

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:36

The all conquering..

Riccardo could be a legit threat, he seems very fast and a unpolished gem. In a few years he could be a top driver for all we know, and a serious bow in the Vettel legacy, if Seb beats him consistently.



#163 Kyo

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:38

D.C also beat Kimi in their first year.

 

Even though I spend half my time defending Seb on this forum, if you look at relative performance Webber and Seb were closely matched for the first two seasons (with Seb having a slight edge) I think a degree of luck should be inserted in that list other than Lewis vs Jenson in 2011. Plus Seb has not faced the variety of teammates the others have had, but that is through no fault of his own.

 

Which is why I am looking forward to Seb vs Riccardo next year.

Yeah, me too.

 

Vettel will still face many teammates and we will have a better idea how he compare to others, as it is now it's impossible to say he is better, worse or equal the other top drivers.

 

At least the ones who rate him better, back it up with stats, the ones who say he is worse have literally nothing to back it up.



#164 Taxi

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:38

A Piquet-Prost pairing would had been amazing, but not after Piquet's accident in 87... Just my opinion.

 

You are right. Piquet lost a lot of speed after it. But in 1988 they would be equaly matched IMO, Piquet knew how to save the car in races and bring the best of it in a time that was essential and also because i think in their prime Piquet was quite faster than Prost. So I would say they would have a very nice battle even with Nelson loss of pure speed.  

 

That being said, Prost list of team mates is by far the most impressive in history, and the way he turned out was magnificent. Many people under estimate him, because he was small, ugly and soft in his driving. I rate him higher than Senna, Clark and Fangio for sure. His 4 titles are more telling than Vettel's although the german had to face other 3 trully amazing drivers to get them. Sebastian is faster though and he will be tough to beat from now on.  


Edited by Taxi, 26 October 2013 - 15:44.


#165 MikeV1987

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:38

I wouldn't under estimate Riccardo, RBR didn't sign him out of the blue.



#166 cartmann

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:51

Riccardo could be a legit threat, he seems very fast and a unpolished gem. In a few years he could be a top driver for all we know, and a serious bow in the Vettel legacy, if Seb beats him consistently.

Red Bull had numerous shots at giving Vettel a legit threat. Look where we ended up. Who ever his guardian angel is, he is being heavily overworked.



#167 sennafan24

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:52

Red Bull had numerous shots at giving Vettel a legit threat. Look where we ended up. Who ever his guardian angel is, he is being heavily overworked.

Again, why fix what is not broken. Its looking like 4 WDC and WCC in a row, why change up a winning formula.

 

Riccardo could have more worth in the long term than Kimi.



#168 ebc

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:53

So now it's no longer about errors, but about 'taking wins when needed at the end of the season'. That's a ridiculous argument, as you always need wins. It's not like somewhere during the season a driver wakes up and thinks 'Hm I better start winning now'. Every round counts the same. Your black and white thinking leaves no room for any subjective judgement: when you make mistakes but you have the car to make up for it = driver is brilliant; if you make mistakes and you don't have the car to make up for it, or your team makes mistakes that your rival's team doesn't = driver blew it. Its not a ridiculus srgument it is a gret

It is not a ridiculus argument it is a great argument.  The best get it done under intense pressure which is what Vettel does.  Alonso and Hamilton did have the car to make up for it but the did not hold their nerve.  That is something Vettel has on those 2 know doubt about it.



#169 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:56

Red Bull had numerous shots at giving Vettel a legit threat. Look where we ended up. Who ever his guardian angel is, he is being heavily overworked.

 

And only a realistic one : Kimi. And we don't know why there was  an agreement.

 

RB would not be so stupid as to take Alonso or Lewis as long as Vettel is with them. Too much baggage.


Edited by Diablobb81, 26 October 2013 - 15:56.


#170 HoldenRT

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:57

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24666936

 

Lucky you have an agent to stop it happening then isn't it Seb?  I truly fear we will never find out how good Sebastian is at this rate - don't get me wrong, I think he is VERY VERY good.  I don't think he's quite Alonso/Hamilton/Raikonnen but he's absolutely there or thereabouts and unfortunately between his agent and Red Bull nobody cares to find out.  

 

 

Alonso won one year, based off of reliability, and one year in an epic duel with Schumacher (I loved that season).  Kimi should have won with McLaren (with a Redbull type car) and won with Ferrari, backing into the championship so to speak, because the McLaren boys were getting into each other.  Lewis won one championship, under not so ideal circumstances against Felipe Massa.. (who?).  Kimi wasn't anywhere in that championship and was supporting Felipe as a number 2.  Lewis is now being outqualified and beaten sometimes by Rosberg (who doesn't even have a WDC).

 

You can find ways to detract anybody.  But at the time of their dominance.. they all had what Vettel had.. a good car.

 

Vettel's now about to win 4 in a row.. and yet is rated below them? :drunk:

 

But Webber's a crap teammate.  He's better than Fisi was with Alonso.. waaaay better.  And he's better than Heiki was with Lewis.. waaaay better.

 

Lewis isn't even convincingly beating Rosberg.. and yet.. he'd trounce Vettel?  Alonso's been getting out qualified by Massa lately.  And Kimi.. has been outshone by Grosjean (of late.. but also at different times).

 

The truth is F1 is very close between the drivers.. and whoever Vettel was paired with.. it could be close.. but Vettel is on a big run.. confidence sky high.. and a team built around him.  Any driver to join Redbull.. would be in for a tough time.  But if Vettel had to join Alonso at Ferrari, or Lewis at Merc.. it could be interesting.

 

My main point was.. each time those drivers.. built their reputation it was with a top car.  The main difference between Vettel has been that it's been 4 years straight.  It's hard to compare either of them.. to say one is better than the other.. but it's funny, the idea that Vettel could be below them.  All of the things people criticise Vettel with.. mistakes, or overtaking.. he doesn't do those anymore.  Vettel was already winning races earlier in this season, without the top car.. before the tyre change.  And that 2005 McLaren that built Kimi's reputation was every bit like a Redbull car.  Kimi then gets paired with Massa.. wins a WDC one year.. plays number 2 the next (to Massa).. and then is somehow still rated above Vettel?

 

It'd be funny if Vettel never did pair with Lewis, Alonso or someone similar.  Everyone would be left to imagine.  Imagine if he wins 8 WDC's and never has a "good teammate".  :lol:



#171 MikeV1987

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:57

Red Bull had numerous shots at giving Vettel a legit threat. Look where we ended up. Who ever his guardian angel is, he is being heavily overworked.

If they didn't sign Dan, then what the hell is the point of having a young driver program? Why on earth would they wan't to sign a 32 year old who will probably retire in a few years rather than invest in their own future? Vettel is not sticking around forever ya know.



#172 shonguiz

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 15:58

Quality words he said in the interview.



#173 seahawk

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:00

Who believes that any driver in F1 today or in history would ask for an extra strong team mate to spice things up a bit, when being in VettelĀ“s position? Alonso and Hamilton are just talking about it because they want or wanted a RBR seat in the past and feel the need to protect their own legacy in the face of Vettel. Looking at it, I think they are more afraid of Vettel, than Vettel of them.



#174 MikeV1987

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:02

Who believes that any driver in F1 today or in history would ask for an extra strong team mate to spice things up a bit, when being in VettelĀ“s position? Alonso and Hamilton are just talking about it because they want or wanted a RBR seat in the past and feel the need to protect their own legacy in the face of Vettel. Looking at it, I think they are more afraid of Vettel, than Vettel of them.

:up:  Fully agree with this about Alonso, maybe not so much Lewis.



#175 andyF1

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:02

In comparison Lewis never drove for a midfield team. And got beaten by Button over three years as team mates. How can you rate Lewis over Vettel?

 

McLaren in 2009 were a midfield team for much of the year. In fact I rate 2009 as one of Hamilton's best seasons



#176 MikeV1987

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:05

McLaren in 2009 were a midfield team for much of the year. In fact I rate 2009 as one of Hamilton's best seasons

Because he had no pressure on him to defend his title.



#177 DriveFastLiveSlow

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:08

:up:  Fully agree with this about Alonso, maybe not so much Lewis.

Not me. In my opinion Lewis is the fragile one thinking about his "legacy" and designing his own caps...



#178 Gorma

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:09

McLaren in 2009 were a midfield team for much of the year. In fact I rate 2009 as one of Hamilton's best seasons

Just because a top team has a crappy car that does not make it a midfield team. 



#179 1Devil1

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:10

McLaren in 2009 were a midfield team for much of the year. In fact I rate 2009 as one of Hamilton's best seasons

:rotfl: good old myth, the car was up to speed in the second half of the season, when Hamilton took his wins, the McLaren 2009 overall was the third best car, how on earth was this car a midfield car? It was the worst car Hamilton ever drove, surely, no doubt, but other drivers of the caliber of Sutil or DiResta would have done a lot to drive  a car like that only one in a life time.



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#180 Andrew Hope

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:11

url%5B1%5D.jpeg

 

Some say Bigfoot is a mystery, but there's more proof he exists than proof this forum can go more than two days without making a thread about how Vettel sucks because he has the best car.



#181 andyF1

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:11

Because he had no pressure on him to defend his title.

More because he was driving a dog of a car and managed to drag it to two race wins and several podiums that year



#182 RosannaG

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:13

Not me. In my opinion Lewis is the fragile one thinking about his "legacy" and designing his own caps...

 

I don't know about the caps but you are right about his legacy...

 

http://britishmotors...-slipping-away/



#183 sennafan24

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:15

Ahhhhhhhhhhh I hate that Lewis Hamiton

Fixed



#184 Radion

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:15

More because he was driving a dog of a car and managed to drag it to two race wins and several podiums that year

No.

the second-half-of-the-season mclaren was everything but a dog.



#185 swerved

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:16

:up:  Fully agree with this about Alonso, maybe not so much Lewis.

 

I'm absolutely not a Lewis fan, but i'm totally convinced he would never fear partnering another driver, any driver, same for Kimi.



#186 sennafan24

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:19

:rotfl: good old myth, the car was up to speed in the second half of the season, when Hamilton took his wins, the McLaren 2009 overall was the third best car, how on earth was this car a midfield car? It was the worst car Hamilton ever drove, surely, no doubt, but other drivers of the caliber of Sutil or DiResta would have done a lot to drive  a car like that only one in a life time.

I kind of agree.

 

But the gulf between the McLaren and the Brawn/RB was vast, it was a distant 3rd.

 

I felt Lewis did well with what he had in 2009.



#187 RealRacing

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:21

Closest you will get Vettel driving outside his safety blanket.

Yeah, that and a taxi race in the streets of Rome on Monday morning...



#188 DriveFastLiveSlow

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:22

Fixed

No, I don't hate Lewis. Only his one eyed fans.

 

And I do think Vettel is way above Lewis in his ability. And I hate the way people put Vettel down on this forum. Numbers speak.



#189 1Devil1

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:22

I kind of agree.

 

But the gulf between the McLaren and the Brawn/RB was vast, it was a distant 3rd.

 

I felt Lewis did well with what he had in 2009.

 

No doubt about it, I can see the point people believe it was Lewis best year ( I think it was last year), but the car was fast enough in the second half of the year. Nothing magical or things no other top driver could have done, Kova was driving the other McLaren, not Alonso, Button or Vettel.. but its made out to be a Schumacher 98, Alonso 2012 or Senna 1993 year - when it clearly wasn't


Edited by 1Devil1, 26 October 2013 - 16:24.


#190 Lights

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:22

It is not a ridiculus argument it is a great argument.  The best get it done under intense pressure which is what Vettel does.  Alonso and Hamilton did have the car to make up for it but the did not hold their nerve.  That is something Vettel has on those 2 know doubt about it.

 

There's no relation between getting it done and pressure because there are too many external factors, which are coincidentally missing in your black and white analysis because that happens to support your view.



#191 sennafan24

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:25

 Only his one eyed fans.

 

And I hate the way people put Vettel down on this forum. Numbers speak

Pot, Kettle, Black



#192 andyF1

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:25

I kind of agree.

 

But the gulf between the McLaren and the Brawn/RB was vast, it was a distant 3rd.

 

I felt Lewis did well with what he had in 2009.

I agree

 

The Mclaren was probably the third, maybe second best car at some tracks for the second part of the 2009 season

 

But when the car was much worse earlier in the season Hamilton still managed to drag it to 4th in Bahrain and his race performance in Australia (before the liegate issue with him and the Toyota of Trulli) was superb



#193 cartmann

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:27

Pot, Kettle, Black

Pot, Kettle, Infrared...



#194 SteF1an

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:27



Until Vettel is proven, by having a decent team mate, or going to a midfield team, I rate him as good a Button. Those who spout drivel about him being better than LH FA or KR have their heads in the sand. I have heard it all on forums the likes of PF1. Vettel is the best ever - Record Breaker- Non Dominant Car- No Need To Prove Himself. The truth is F1 is not a sport, not something you can get a decent measure of at the best of times, and is more about the car than the driver. So for a real measurement of Vettel, he needs to prove himself. Otherwise he will always be the guy that got beat on Top Gear by not only his teammate, but a unfocused and playfully distracted LH who thrashed him. Until I see them both in a spec formula, I as well as many many others believe Vettel is the last in the top 5 drivers in F1. Anyone who disagrees, I enjoin you to start a pole to once and for all decide this issue.

 

6g7ofkbmwu2f.jpg



#195 JimiKart

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:28

So back to the OP, Vettel is not scared of a top team mate, so that's exactly why the team hired one to replace webber, right??

 

See guys, all you guys who spend your days here trying to shoot down the mere mention of anything negative about Seb, don't you see it, your task will never end until he has a suitable challenge from within his own team and until the competition has a car the "flexes" (or is "manually adjustable") to the same to the same extent Seb's is, until that day your task is both thankless and endless, but worry not as it does serve a purpose, it's entertaining.

 

Anyone who thinks Seb's image is a concern to RB must now acknowledge that putting Riccardo in the second seat means they're not concerned about it and more importantly, they have little desire to put something else in the second seat - a standard by which to measure.. 



#196 cartmann

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:30

So back to the OP, Vettel is not scared of a top team mate, so that's exactly why the team hired one to replace webber, right??

 

See guys, all you guys who spend your days here trying to shoot down the mere mention of anything negative about Seb, don't you see it, your task will never end until he has a suitable challenge from within his own team and until the competition has a car the "flexes" (or is "manually adjustable") to the same to the same extent Seb's is, until that day your task is both thankless and endless, but worry not as it does serve a purpose, it's entertaining.

 

Anyone who thinks Seb's image is a concern to RB must now acknowledge that putting Riccardo in the second seat means they're not concerned about it and more importantly, they have little desire to put something else in the second seat - a standard by which to measure.. 

Sense at last...

 

Its almost like they are saying. We do not want to race. We are just concerned with winning, regardless how.


Edited by cartmann, 26 October 2013 - 16:31.


#197 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 16:31

This thread is so far off topic and just plain nasty

It has no future

 

Edit: The last 2 posts are not enough to save the thread. It has been nothing but mud slinging from the start and a free for all discussing anything no matter how tenuously linked to the topic.