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Driving the track optional? [merged]


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#1 Slackbladder

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 09:07

On multiple corners and on multiple tracks, it now seems that the white lines are only for guidance. Cars being able to drive with anything up to all four wheels outside the track.

 

That is not right, and its not proper racing. Either change the surface to provide a clear penalty in terms of times, or the stewards to clamp down on this...



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#2 Anja

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 09:09

That's the tarmac runoff for you. With grass or gravel in those places there wouldn't be any problem.



#3 ArkZ

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 09:20

GP India is festival of driving off the track, they are outside of the lines in almost every corner. Times should be deleted.



#4 redreni

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:26

All we can do as fans is keep banging on about it until a decision is made to enforce the regulations. However, I would highly recommend anyone who is tempted to think it would be an easy or simple matter to enforce this to go on Youtube and look for the 2012 V8 Supercar races at Surfers Paradise, to see how big a hole the stewards can dig themselves if they give out warnings and penalties haphazardly and inconsistently.

 

Let's say there are six corners where people are running wide off the track (at Budhh it's probably more than that), over a qualifying session everybody will do between two and four hot laps, that's up to 576 instances for Q1, 384 instances for Q2 and 240 instances for Q3 of a car passing through a relevant corner on a hot lap, and there needs to be a judge of fact positioned at the corner, or in race control watching a fixed enforcement camara at said corner, making sure every violation is spotted. It's no good if you only enforce the rules when the FOM cameras happen to be watching or when the Race Director happens to notice.

 

Similarly in the race, if everybody finishes and nobody is lapped, there would be 8640 instances of cars passing through the relevant corners, and in each case it has to be decided not only whether the car left the track, but also whether the car left the track without justifiable reason. If it left the track with justifiable reason, it has to be decided whether an advantage was gained. It's borderline unenforceable at the moment. At minimum, a veritable army of official judges of fact are needed, to report off-track incidents as they happen and to ensure the FIA knows exactly how many times a particular car has gone off track. It's not something the stewards can be expected to sort out without systematic monitoring to ensure equal treatment of all competitors.



#5 apoka

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:55

All we can do as fans is keep banging on about it until a decision is made to enforce the regulations. However, I would highly recommend anyone who is tempted to think it would be an easy or simple matter to enforce this to go on Youtube and look for the 2012 V8 Supercar races at Surfers Paradise, to see how big a hole the stewards can dig themselves if they give out warnings and penalties haphazardly and inconsistently.

 

Let's say there are six corners where people are running wide off the track (at Budhh it's probably more than that), over a qualifying session everybody will do between two and four hot laps, that's up to 576 instances for Q1, 384 instances for Q2 and 240 instances for Q3 of a car passing through a relevant corner on a hot lap, and there needs to be a judge of fact positioned at the corner, or in race control watching a fixed enforcement camara at said corner, making sure every violation is spotted. It's no good if you only enforce the rules when the FOM cameras happen to be watching or when the Race Director happens to notice.

 

Similarly in the race, if everybody finishes and nobody is lapped, there would be 8640 instances of cars passing through the relevant corners, and in each case it has to be decided not only whether the car left the track, but also whether the car left the track without justifiable reason. If it left the track with justifiable reason, it has to be decided whether an advantage was gained. It's borderline unenforceable at the moment. At minimum, a veritable army of official judges of fact are needed, to report off-track incidents as they happen and to ensure the FIA knows exactly how many times a particular car has gone off track. It's not something the stewards can be expected to sort out without systematic monitoring to ensure equal treatment of all competitors.

 

Good post!  :up: It would be far simpler if the track itself discourages going beyond its limits.



#6 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 13:17

Daft thing is, Monza this year on the exit of the.......Ascari chicane (think that's the right 1, it's the 1 leading onto the straight towards the Parabolica) they were told "you can't go all 4 wheels off the track on the exit of that chicane". It's almost like it's 1 rule for 1 track/section of track, and 1 rule for another track/section of track. Stick grass on the outside of every kerb to give at least the tiniest punishment if they do do it, and in quali delete any laptimes where they do it. As for the race, unless it's due to a mistake/forced off track (that sort of situation is generally obvious enough to see), warning for a first offence, drive through for a second offence, black flag for a third offence. Harsh maybe, but it needs to be sorted out. 3 strikes and you're out basically. If you can't penalise for it during the race, then if it happens once then you get a reprimand post race, twice and you get the amount of time a drive through costs added to your time (the stewards would have that info I'd imagine), 3 or more times and it's a DQ post race.


Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 25 October 2013 - 13:19.


#7 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 13:28

Just make a band of artificial grass or something. The subject has been talked about a lot. I can't seem to enjoy a car racing only between white lines, while daring to keep it on track outside gravel traps and the like. Nowadays they go wide and enter a parking lot.



#8 RB1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 13:37

I think the kerbs should be declared part of the track because they all go wide. Plus, the width of the kerbs seem wider than the cars at a lot of the new tracks, so when they use all the kerb, they normally leave the track. 

 

I think there needs to be something very slippery at the far side of the kerb, instead of the astroturf, so they are not tempted go beyond the track limits and would definitely gain no advantage by leaving the track. Grass and gravel aren't apparently safe because they can launch the cars, any other ideas?



#9 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 13:42

Get rid of curbs.  White line defines track limits, then 5m of turf.  Then start the paved runoff.

 

Or we could just go high tech.  90 cm (half the width of the car) from the outside of the white line, a timing loop is in place.  Coupled with a tranceiver on the car's centerline, it records how long each car has had all four wheels of the track.  Accumulate 10s of off track time: reprimand;  20s: drive through penalty;  



#10 Fastcake

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 15:08

Get rid of curbs.  White line defines track limits, then 5m of turf.  Then start the paved runoff.

 

Or we could just go high tech.  90 cm (half the width of the car) from the outside of the white line, a timing loop is in place.  Coupled with a tranceiver on the car's centerline, it records how long each car has had all four wheels of the track.  Accumulate 10s of off track time: reprimand;  20s: drive through penalty;  

 

We just need a strip of grass between the run-off and the track, perhaps also removing some of the excess tarmac. Kerbs are needed on most corners to prevent the edge of the track from being torn apart.



#11 senna da silva

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 16:35

We just need a strip of grass between the run-off and the track, perhaps also removing some of the excess tarmac. Kerbs are needed on most corners to prevent the edge of the track from being torn apart.

 

The problem with grass is that the cars eventually end up kicking dirt onto the track. I always thought they should put a low friction surface on corner exits to prevent any advantage being gained. inlay a 500mm wide plastic strip of UHMW-PE and problem solved.



#12 Fastcake

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 16:46

The problem with grass is that the cars eventually end up kicking dirt onto the track. I always thought they should put a low friction surface on corner exits to prevent any advantage being gained. inlay a 500mm wide plastic strip of UHMW-PE and problem solved.

 

While that's true, maybe they can just learn to not drive wide as much to stop dirtying the track. I don't think the drivers should expect a perfect track anyway.



#13 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 16:47

They should bring in blue and red runoff areas like those used at Circuit Paul Ricard.



#14 redreni

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 16:57

They should bring in blue and red runoff areas like those used at Circuit Paul Ricard.


But that‘s not there to deter off-track driving, it‘s there to provide a high-friction surface to maximise retardation if a car spins across it. If you spin across the red asphalt, particularly, you can easily destroy a tyre. But if you drive across the blue asphalt without putting any excessive load through the tyre there‘s no harm, so it doesn‘t help keep the cars on the track.

#15 KingTiger

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 17:09

Vettel always goes completely wide on that crappy "turn 8" copy corner in India. 



#16 Group B

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 17:14

That's the tarmac runoff for you. With grass or gravel in those places there wouldn't be any problem.

 

This.



#17 Option1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 18:05

Land mines!  And where that's impractical, guided missiles.

 

Neil



#18 andyF1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 18:12

Nails sticking up from the tarmac. That would stop them



#19 SonnyViceR

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 18:19

This problem can be avoided by watching racing happening on tracks located outside Europe and Asia, as those are the areas polluted by FIA sterilization. The only asphalt run-off filled - non street circuit and non oval - tracks outside Europe and Asia that I can think of out of my head are

 

Full asphaltdromes

Austin (Tilkedrome)

Portrero de los Funes (though the walls are rather close so technically not sure if counts)

 

Moderate level of asphalt run off

Mosport (as of 2013)

Gilles Villeneuve

Watkins Glen

Interlagos

 

Some amount of asphalt runoff in few areas / *other*

Road America

Barber
Miller (not so much asphalt, but the safety areas are huge)

 

I think there was some Australian one too but I forgot which one. And then some airfield tracks, such as Sebring but it doesn't technically count... ICAR too

 

Feel free to add more


Edited by SonnyViceR, 25 October 2013 - 18:22.


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#20 andyF1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 18:23

Seriously though why can't we have grass on the outside of corners? I know gravel can launch a car or send it flipping and rolling from time to time, but I'm really struggling to think of an occasion where grass has launched a car and sent it into a serious accident



#21 Garagiste

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 19:17

Seriously though why can't we have grass on the outside of corners? I know gravel can launch a car or send it flipping and rolling from time to time, but I'm really struggling to think of an occasion where grass has launched a car and sent it into a serious accident

 

I'm having to go back a bit and don't recall it perfectly, but was it Heidfeld that put a wheel on the grass, lost it, slid backwards across the corner and rejoined straight into Sato(?) Zanardi's accident too had a strip of grass as a prime cause.

Trouble with low adhesion as a solution is it can't be used anywhere there is a danger of an out of control car re-joining the track. Ideally we need something that quickly yet safely retards the speed of the car. The way that the maple syrup works in Micro Machines.



#22 ANF

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 19:24

Greg Moore...


Edited by ANF, 25 October 2013 - 19:27.


#23 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 19:25

Most boring Red Bull Tilke track. Glad they're leaving this track for good after 2013.



#24 andyF1

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 19:53

I'm having to go back a bit and don't recall it perfectly, but was it Heidfeld that put a wheel on the grass, lost it, slid backwards across the corner and rejoined straight into Sato(?) Zanardi's accident too had a strip of grass as a prime cause.

Trouble with low adhesion as a solution is it can't be used anywhere there is a danger of an out of control car re-joining the track. Ideally we need something that quickly yet safely retards the speed of the car. The way that the maple syrup works in Micro Machines.

 

 

I'm not sure what happened here, looks like a car failure to me. But even if there had of been tarmac on the inside of the corner instead of grass, it would still have been an awful accident.

 

Greg Moore is sadly one accident where grass has launched a car and also Kubica in Canada 2007 was launched by grass now I think about it.

But this was on the outside of a high speed part of the track. What annoys me is that we now often have massive areas of asphalt run off on the outside of low speed corners and low to medium speed corners.



#25 Slartibartfast

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 20:02

Either "Stingers" - the afore-mentioned nails sticking up - or tar pits. Preferably both.

#26 pdac

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 20:08

I'm sure it must be possible to have some sort of electronic mean of determining whether a car has left the track or not. My feeling is that they should use such a system and then declare the lines as walls - and if you 'hit' the wall then your car is no longer drivable and you're out of the race. Drivers and teams would bitch at first, but would very quickly manage to race hard and still stay on the track.



#27 Fastcake

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 20:17

I'm sure it must be possible to have some sort of electronic mean of determining whether a car has left the track or not. My feeling is that they should use such a system and then declare the lines as walls - and if you 'hit' the wall then your car is no longer drivable and you're out of the race. Drivers and teams would bitch at first, but would very quickly manage to race hard and still stay on the track.

 

That's an excellent way to introduce some dirty tactics into racing. Driver one would squeeze driver two off-track to get him out of the race, as the second driver would instinctively turn away into the empty space. 


Edited by Fastcake, 25 October 2013 - 20:17.


#28 pdac

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 20:20

That's an excellent way to introduce some dirty tactics into racing. Driver one would squeeze driver two off-track to get him out of the race, as the second driver would instinctively turn away into the empty space. 

Yeah, I suppose it's different if you think that you're squeezing a driver into a real wall to if you're squeezing them into an imaginary one. Oh well.



#29 7MGTEsup

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 20:22

Greg Moore is sadly one accident where grass has launched a car and also Kubica in Canada 2007 was launched by grass now I think about it.

But this was on the outside of a high speed part of the track. What annoys me is that we now often have massive areas of asphalt run off on the outside of low speed corners and low to medium speed corners.

 

I'm pretty sure Kubica's crash was caused by contact with another car hence he was airborn and a tarmac run off wouldn't have saved him.

 

Edit: Just watched it again and he hit a raised bit of tarmac that caused the lift off.


Edited by 7MGTEsup, 25 October 2013 - 20:25.


#30 Bloggsworth

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 20:34

Put Stingers on the wrong side of the kerbs, that'll stop 'em...

#31 Longtimefan

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 21:08

They should put gravel back, this is really getting silly at some tracks.

 

Hate to say it but Vettel and Alonso seem to be with biggest culprits.



#32 redreni

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 22:04

They should put gravel back, this is really getting silly at some tracks.
 
Hate to say it but Vettel and Alonso seem to be with biggest culprits.


Can‘t blame them; if there‘s a rule in place but no enforcement you can either follow it and get mugged by the others, or you can break it. If nobody is going to tell them to respect the track limits, if they‘re going to set laptimes having been multiple times off the circuit and nobody is going to delete those laptimes, then it leaves the driver no option. He can‘t possibly be expected to give something away to his rivals by following a rule that is honoured more in the breach than in the observance.

Whilst I agree that some circuits are worse than others for encouraging abuse of track limits, and I agree that there may in some cases be ways of redesigning corners so that it‘s better to stay on the track, proper enforcement is needed too. Look at Hamilton‘s pole lap at Spa. Should unquestionably have been deleted (along with a number of other drivers‘ laps). But if you‘re telling me there‘s any way in hell they‘re going to go back to grass and gravel at Radillion, much less put tyre bundles or foam blocks or bits of tekpro or maple syrup or low grip plastic (which would in any event make no difference to a car that has four times its own weight in downforce as it passes through there) then I‘m afraid you‘re off your rocker. If there was proper enforcement you would almost never see a car running off the circuit.

As for the point that there must be an electronic way of telling if a car has gone off, they tried that in Australian V8s and it caught the guys who took marginally more kerb than they were meant to and failed to detect people who missed out the corner altogether. And even if F1‘s automated system worked, it would only tell you which car left the circuit when and where, it would not tell you if they had a justifiable reason or if they rejoined safely and without gaining an advantage, so it wouldn‘t tell you if a car was breaking the rules or not. That‘s why it needs human judges of fact, so they can distinguish between a genuine mistake or act of avoidance leading to an off-track excursion with time loss, and a driver simply carrying too much speed through a corner and exceeding the track limits at the exit as a result.

#33 IPBushy

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:25

If the white line isn't the edge of the circuit, where is it?  If a driver can take his car with all four wheels over the line, how far can he go before Charlie Whiting will declare it illegal? Thin end of a damaging wedge imho.



#34 Shiroo

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:27

I always thought that white lines are for making a circuit more colorful. So they have a meaning? 



#35 Jackmancer

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:29

I always thought that white lines are for making a circuit more colorful. So they have a meaning? 

 

Well white isn't really a colour in the first place.



#36 Andrew Hope

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:32

They only hate that line 'cos he's white.



#37 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:48

Do we need yet another thread on this? http://forums.autosp...track-optional/



#38 IPBushy

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:53

Do we need yet another thread on this? http://forums.autosp...track-optional/

Sorry.  Didn't see the other thread.  Merge by all means.



#39 redreni

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:53

Coulthard just reported that Whiting has purported to override the Sporting Regulations in the driver briefing by telling drivers they can have a "free pass" to go off the circuit and onto the astroturf, the reasoning being there‘s no advantage. Whiting is not a professional racing driver, and as far as I can see the consensus amongst the professionals is that there is an advantage.

Moreover it tells us that Whiting hasn‘t read the regulations very carefully, because there is no carte blanche to leave the circuit even if no advantage is gained. You can‘t leave the track without justifiable reason, full stop. So you can‘t go off systematically and repeatedly, even if there is no advantage. Whiting will be lucky if that artificial turf doesn‘t get ripped up before the end of the race. What an incompetent moron.

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#40 Jackmancer

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:10

Well, if Vettel goes off the track in his pole lap, will they strip him from pole for a better race?



#41 redreni

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:14

Ha ha ha. Webber showing that if you give em an inch, they‘ll take about half a mile. If he ran any wider, he‘d have had to pay to get back in. No way that time can stand.

EDIT: Apparently Uncle Christian had a word and "Charlie was fine with it". Unbelievable.

Edited by redreni, 26 October 2013 - 09:18.


#42 Konsta

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:19

Ha ha ha. Webber showing that if you give em an inch, they‘ll take about half a mile. If he ran any wider, he‘d have had to pay to get back in. No way that time can stand.

EDIT: Apparently Uncle Christian had a word and "Charlie was fine with it". Unbelievable.

Yeah, Flippy was another one who did not even try to keep his car on the track. Pathetic.



#43 Kalmake

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:24

It would be a nightmare to police the white lines. Hundreds of jury calls would have to be made. Better to just let them run wide. It's the same for everyone. Make better curbs next time.



#44 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:31

They even took awat the high curbs on the inside of the chicanes. Watching them go around here is painful.



#45 ZZei

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:35

Pathetic really. You can take the corner at any speed you want, the more speed you want to take and the more you cut the corner, the faster you are.



#46 SenorSjon

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:37

Make the chicane section a graveltrap minefield and they will keep it on the track. The laps look ridiculous when they are all over the place. They can make the corner, but don't want to put to much energy in the tire and just go wide.

#47 Lights

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:41

How can Whiting be so clueless? Of course the drivers gain an advantage, else they wouldn't structurally do it.



#48 johnmhinds

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:45

I'm not going to bother watching the race tomorrow if the drivers are now free to drive well over a cars width off the track for no reason.

 

The track is already a million miles wide, they are just taking the piss at this point.


Edited by johnmhinds, 26 October 2013 - 09:46.


#49 Andrew Hope

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:47

If you made the penalty for going off track mean you had to spend the week following the race hanging out with Charlie Whiting you'd see the drivers learn where the track boundaries are pretty ****ing quick.



#50 redreni

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:47

Make the chicane section a graveltrap minefield and they will keep it on the track. The laps look ridiculous when they are all over the place. They can make the corner, but don't want to put to much energy in the tire and just go wide.


Or, just don‘t come back to Budhh? Just a thought.