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Driving the track optional? [merged]


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#451 spacekid

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 13:14

And that's how it should be, but most of the time it isn't.

I saw people saying in Twitter that Whiting allows going wide because you can't gain time. Maybe it's not faster BUT when you know you can drive wide, you take more risk and you aren't punished for exessive risk. If you couldn't take as much risk, you'd be slower.


Exactly. Put metal spikes on the edge of the track, the we'll see who is brave enough to take some corners flat out.

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#452 August

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 13:16

Exactly. Put metal spikes on the edge of the track, the we'll see who is brave enough to take some corners flat out.

And who's foolhardy to go flat out when it's impossible.



#453 johnmhinds

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 13:30

So frustrating to see Charlie Whiting rewriting the rulebook every other weekend for no reason.

 

How hard can it be to make the drivers stay on the race track...



#454 jcpower13

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 13:37

Whiting should not be making these sort of decisions when he clearly has no idea, if it's faster to exceed track limits then the drivers will exceed track limits. What did they do today? They exceeded track limits consistently, Nico's fastest lap in Q1 and Q3 were both done with him exceeding the track limits. He should make the rule enforceable at all races, not just when it takes him on a whim to enforce them.



#455 RonnyRonny

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 13:38

Total joke today after Silverstone and RedBullring.

#456 spacekid

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 15:50

And who's foolhardy to go flat out when it's impossible.


Yes, that too. For what it's worth, I'd also like to see the cars too powerful and with not enough aero to take certain corners flat out. What's the point in Eau Rouge if everyone can just floor it?

#457 swintex

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 17:01

What's the point in Eau Rouge if everyone can just floor it?

Somewhat OT, but the point of Eau Rouge, is that 's the way the road went as it crossed the stream at the bottom of the valley.

 

It wasn't created as a challenge, it just happened to be one.



#458 AustinF1

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 18:07

Yes, that too. For what it's worth, I'd also like to see the cars too powerful and with not enough aero to take certain corners flat out. What's the point in Eau Rouge if everyone can just floor it?

Exactly.  The inconsistency in F1 rule enforcement is tiresome. Once you say it's ok to exceed the limits, then how far off track is too far off? There's clearly an advantage, or nobody would be doing it. 

 



#459 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 18:13

Glad they were allowed to do their thing.

It hurt nothing whatsoever.

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#460 PlatenGlass

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 18:17

Glad they were allowed to do their thing.

It hurt nothing whatsoever.

The problem is the inconsistency. I personally don't really care if drivers go wide. It's a little bit weird that going wide off the track can sometimes be an advantage, but they need to design the tracks so it isn't. Then they won't need to penalise drivers for going wide - which they never did for the first 100 years of motor racing anyway!!!

#461 Gyno

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 18:26

Either enforce the rule at every single track or remove the rule.



#462 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 18:27

What I found most ridiculous was FOM's pointlessly dramatic super slo-mo shots of cars leaving the track when nobody cared. CW probably forgot to tell them that this weekend it would be ok



#463 turssi

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 18:29

I'd like to see all the drivers respect the white lines or all cross them. Now it's difficult to compare. Really strange to make an item out of this and then ignore it. I'm looking at you, Charlie Whiting.

#464 jestaudio

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 18:37

If anything is going to put me off F1 its Whiting and his bullshit, either exceeding the track limits is ok or its not, ditto for Fric and every other bullshit decision he,s made in the last god knows how many years, i have no problem with F1 evolving and cars changing but this is a turn off, i want to see consistent rules consistently used, this sort of crap is starting to put me off F1 ,  :mad:



#465 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 19:03

Either enforce it at every corner on every track or don't enforce it at all. This tosh about "no advantage is gained by running wide at corner a/b/c/etc" is rubbish. The track is defined as being between the white lines. If you go all 4 wheels outside those white lines, get a warning/penalty or whatever. You can't pick and choose where to enforce it as far as I'm concerned.



#466 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 19:04

The problem is that this should have been a non-issue.

 

Just get your ass down and design a proper kerb and runoff, and then let the drivers tackle it as they wish.

 

As simple as that



#467 AustinF1

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 19:08

The problem is that this should have been a non-issue.

 

Just get your ass down and design a proper kerb and runoff, and then let the drivers tackle it as they wish.

 

As simple as that

Agreed.



#468 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:43

The FIA has clarified the track limits situation for the German Grand Prix, having decided against the zero tolerance approach it had for the Austrian and British rounds.

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115055

 

These people need a decent public communications person. It would all not have been so bad if they had explained their reasoning and detailed the approach they would take prior to the events in Spielberg and Silverstone as well as Hockenheim.  And if they had told FOM not to get all so excited with the off track slomos in Hockenheim



#469 turssi

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 15:31

What a divided sport. FOM, FIA, race organizers, teams all disconnected from each other and the global audience. Following the sport seems to take more and more devotion. I hope it gets easier soon.

#470 ExFlagMan

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 16:03

According to Autosport web site, Vergne has been given a  5 sec penalty and a licence point for exceeding track limits during the race (actually for gaining an advantage by exceeding track limits).



#471 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 16:08

According to Autosport web site, Vergne has been given a  5 sec penalty and a licence point for exceeding track limits during the race (actually for gaining an advantage by exceeding track limits).

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



#472 johnmhinds

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 17:41

According to Autosport web site, Vergne has been given a  5 sec penalty and a licence point for exceeding track limits during the race (actually for gaining an advantage by exceeding track limits).

 

wtf-is-this-shit-mr-bean-.jpg



#473 DaddyCool

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 18:13

If they had given a 5 sec penalty for eveyone who abused track limits today for each offense, Rosberg would be 2 laps down on Kamui Kobayashi.

 

But I guess nobody gives a shit because it's Jean-Eric Vergne.



#474 chipmcdonald

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:23

FOM is worried about lap times.  It's the only explanation.

 

Of course nobody gains an advantage if everyone is allowed to do it.

 

But it completely fraks up the nature of the circuit.  If it meant 2 corners had to be taken 15 mph slower, and further below a maximal aero efficiency - there would be an increase in hysteresis. 

 

What happens when all of the cars are in lift-and-coast, and suddenly for the second half of the race lap times drop from being not only a second slower than they were today, but even 2-3 more seconds because you've got 2, maybe 3 corners that now either require braking or impact the momentum carried to the next corner? 

 

Even slower lap times, fuel limit implications.  4 wheels off is ok this year, really.....?



#475 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:34

FOM is worried about lap times.  It's the only explanation.

 

Of course nobody gains an advantage if everyone is allowed to do it.

 

But it completely fraks up the nature of the circuit.  If it meant 2 corners had to be taken 15 mph slower, and further below a maximal aero efficiency - there would be an increase in hysteresis. 

 

What happens when all of the cars are in lift-and-coast, and suddenly for the second half of the race lap times drop from being not only a second slower than they were today, but even 2-3 more seconds because you've got 2, maybe 3 corners that now either require braking or impact the momentum carried to the next corner? 

 

Even slower lap times, fuel limit implications.  4 wheels off is ok this year, really.....?

 

But the problem is that apparently Vergne is not allowed to, and FIA mad a big show the previous 2 events that it is not ok



#476 chipmcdonald

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:36

Meanwhile, In Russia it appears one won't have the option:

 

Sochi-Autodrum_3175155.jpg

 

 

... so, a driver goes in there at around 160+ mph?  What happens if he has a puncture at the apex, he knifes into Tecpro at a nearly perpendicular angle...?  4 wheels over there is going to be interesting.  Or maybe they'll have some Donetski militia there to enforce track limits?

 

 

(sorry, that turn looks extremely non-FIA approved-dangerous IMO...)



#477 chipmcdonald

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:39

But the problem is that apparently Vergne is not allowed to, and FIA mad a big show the previous 2 events that it is not ok

 

I think that is a token gesture.  Suddenly this year it's ok to put 4 wheels over, except for Vergne?  "Something isn't right".  Slow laps, low momentum/efficiency is a concern.



#478 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:43

I think that is a token gesture.  Suddenly this year it's ok to put 4 wheels over, except for Vergne?  "Something isn't right".  Slow laps, low momentum/efficiency is a concern.

 

In Hockenheim, but not in Austria and Silverstone - sometimes.

Edit: I obviously don't get the "token gesture" part


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 21 July 2014 - 06:52.


#479 chipmcdonald

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:09

In Hockenheim, but not in Austria and Silverstone - sometimes.

Edit: I obviously don't get the "token gesture" part

 

 

Meaning, they obviously feel they need to be seen as being "conscientious" about it, but for some reason this year they obviously have taken a different attitude about it.  JEV was a whipping boy.

 

Alonso was right about Vettel at Silverstone - Vettel was carrying more momentum going off track,  Alonso wasn't.  That would never have happened like that before this year - it's why Alonso was going as wide as Vettel, I'm sure he's thinking "*I'm* not going to get a penalty...".  

 

The Powers That Be are letting them run wide this year for some reason, but don't want it to appear there is "some reason" that is different this year than previous.  If this is going to be the case, track owners should be up in arms for even bothering with paying to kerb, rumble strips and multicolored paint to show where the track "ends".   That stunt Rosberg got away with this year everybody is going to do next year, and while this year it's being done "tastefully" - as if it were unintentional, somebody at some point is just going to start cutting everywhere by default.  And why not? 



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#480 johnmhinds

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:59

I really don't see how they can go from saying it's a none issue at the track because there was no advantage to be had anywhere to then later giving a driver a 5 second penalty and a licence point for it.

 

Vergne got a licence point for running wide? Can anyone explain the thought process behind that?

 

What the **** is going on behind the scenes...



#481 PlatenGlass

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:09

I don't know exactly what Vergne did, but maybe he overtook Grosjean in a similar manner to how Vettel passed Button a couple of years ago. Despite what we saw at Silverstone, I think even if they don't generally care if a driver runs wide, it still matters if they do it to overtake.

#482 Bleu

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:19

I don't know exactly what Vergne did, but maybe he overtook Grosjean in a similar manner to how Vettel passed Button a couple of years ago. Despite what we saw at Silverstone, I think even if they don't generally care if a driver runs wide, it still matters if they do it to overtake.

 

Timing of the incident (14:33) fits well with the fact that Vergne overtook Grosjean on lap 21.

 

5-second penalty sounds right but penalty point seems harsh for that.



#483 chipmcdonald

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 15:53

I really don't see how they can go from saying it's a none issue at the track because there was no advantage to be had anywhere to then later giving a driver a 5 second penalty and a licence point for it.

 

Vergne got a licence point for running wide? Can anyone explain the thought process behind that?

 

What the **** is going on behind the scenes...

 

 

Because they've told the drivers "look, we want to keep lap times down and don't want fuel to appear to be an issue, so you can run wide here and here to maintain momentum, but nowhere else".  They called a "non-important" driver to the table because they obviously think they need to maintain appearances.  Brundle kept saying ".. if you pass (para) and gain a "lasting advantage"" over and over - where did he get that statement from?  First time I've heard that, and on the grid he was talking about not everything Charlie says to you is meant to go on air exactly....

 

They didn't allow it before, they are this year, so it has to be related to what is different about this year.  What is different are the regulations and slower cars.  Bad enough to have a lousy turnout, "someone" is probably concerned people will start talking about lap times being the same as GP2. 

 

They've messed up F1.



#484 Clatter

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 17:21

Because they've told the drivers "look, we want to keep lap times down and don't want fuel to appear to be an issue, so you can run wide here and here to maintain momentum, but nowhere else".  They called a "non-important" driver to the table because they obviously think they need to maintain appearances.  Brundle kept saying ".. if you pass (para) and gain a "lasting advantage"" over and over - where did he get that statement from?  First time I've heard that, and on the grid he was talking about not everything Charlie says to you is meant to go on air exactly....

 

They didn't allow it before, they are this year, so it has to be related to what is different about this year.  What is different are the regulations and slower cars.  Bad enough to have a lousy turnout, "someone" is probably concerned people will start talking about lap times being the same as GP2. 

 

They've messed up F1.

Glad you reminded me of that one as it was new to me as well.

 

Checked the rules and it's new for this year.

 

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

 

Previously read

 

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.


#485 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 17:26

According to Autosport web site, Vergne has been given a  5 sec penalty and a licence point for exceeding track limits during the race (actually for gaining an advantage by exceeding track limits).

Perhaps he was doing it excessively?

Its possible that it was a case of the stewards being inconsistent though, sure. I would just want to hear the steward's thoughts on the matter before declaring 'BULLSHIT'. Too many people never want to hear both sides of a story.

They've messed up F1.

Haha no. Everything is fine. You guys are just acting like nanny-state governments.

Its hurting nothing to let them race.

Edited by Seanspeed, 21 July 2014 - 17:28.


#486 noriaki

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 17:57

Could be wrong, but I seem to recall the live feed showing JEV's track line infraction. He was attempting to pass Grosjean around the outside of T13, but went wide onto the kerbing. It initially seemed Romain kept his place, but to me, it seems probable that Vergne eventually completed the pass shortly after the infraction and was eventually deemed to have gained advantage of the track violation earlier. 

 

The rule which FIA seems to go by at the moment, appears to be that you do not gain an advantage from violating the track limits apart from very obvious places, like cutting chicanes, and the select corners set in stone in drivers' meeting. The general public may or may not get informed of those corners. As an exception to that, you are deemed to gain an advantage in all corners if at the moment of track violation, you are be passing another car or another car is passing you. 

 

FIA are consistent with their rules, mostly. 

 

I don't have the required vocabulary to describe how stupid their rules are. 

 

According to this rule, a driver could take a corner wide every lap of the race and have it not deemed to be an advantage - except when there's a slower car in the said corner whom he passes, it magically becomes an advantage and gets penalized. Waiting for drivers to actually make use of this - when defending from drivers foolish enough to attempt pass around the outside, you just have to push them off the track and let them complete the pass, because according to FIA that's going to be a 5 second penalty for the overtaker. 

 

:drunk:

 

I mean... I could understand them having the track violation rules strict at all times. I could understand having them totally lenient at all times - I would actually prefer having them strict when driving alone and lenient when in a battle, because in a battle track limits can often get crossed for a valid reason, like avoiding another car, and they can well be just to the detriment of a battle. See Gilles vs Arnoux - you know what I mean.

 

But nothing, absolutely nothing explains the way FIA has chosen to enforce track limit violation. 

 

---

 

If still in doubt: Watch this. Imagine Massa isn't there. 

 

 

Is it worth a penalty? 

 

Well, watch that corner this week. Count the times a driver puts four wheels over that line when driving alone. Count the times he gets a penalty for that. You should get my point.  



#487 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 18:13

Meaning, they obviously feel they need to be seen as being "conscientious" about it, but for some reason this year they obviously have taken a different attitude about it.  JEV was a whipping boy.

 

Alonso was right about Vettel at Silverstone - Vettel was carrying more momentum going off track,  Alonso wasn't.  That would never have happened like that before this year - it's why Alonso was going as wide as Vettel, I'm sure he's thinking "*I'm* not going to get a penalty...".  

 

The Powers That Be are letting them run wide this year for some reason, but don't want it to appear there is "some reason" that is different this year than previous.  If this is going to be the case, track owners should be up in arms for even bothering with paying to kerb, rumble strips and multicolored paint to show where the track "ends".   That stunt Rosberg got away with this year everybody is going to do next year, and while this year it's being done "tastefully" - as if it were unintentional, somebody at some point is just going to start cutting everywhere by default.  And why not? 

 

Thanks. I see your point, not sure I agree, but we do agree that it's a frackin' mess :)


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 21 July 2014 - 18:13.


#488 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 18:15

I don't know exactly what Vergne did, but maybe he overtook Grosjean in a similar manner to how Vettel passed Button a couple of years ago. Despite what we saw at Silverstone, I think even if they don't generally care if a driver runs wide, it still matters if they do it to overtake.

 

Vettel vs Alonso in Silverstone seems to suggest otherwise