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Delage 2LCV 1923-1927


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#1 prseagerthomas

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 21:12

I'm looking for information regarding these cars. I already have plenty but am in particular looking for post works information, especially regarding chassis numbers, though of course any information is welcome.

 

I would mention that I have already been in contact with Daniel Cabert and Philippe Schram, who have been most helpful.

 

The following pcture is by courtesy of Philippe and the Le Zebre website. Paul Torchy, 1925 San Sebastian GP.

 

andre20morel20036c20dpriortorace.jpg

 

Surviving cars;

 

I believe the 1923 car survives in re-created form, based around the original chassis. Rebuilt circa 1927 as the Becquet Delage. V8 Hispano engine.

 

I believe Lukas Huni has a 1924 car in partial 1925 form. For the Belgian GP of 1925 three of the cars entered were uprated 1924 cars, supercharged and rebodied.

 

I believe Julian Mazjub has a 1924 car in 'later guise'.

 

I am aware of the history of some cars in Argentina as related in Fuerza Libra, and also of the snippets gleaned from this and other forums.

 

W Scott with the ex-Per Nas car circa 1928, the same car racing at Brooklands and so t'is said, bought by Adrian Conan Doyle and disasterously blown up after sleeving to 1500cc (voiturette size).

 

Probably another car was fitted with the 2-stoke supercharged Jamieson engine and entered with Dudley Froy as driver for a few events, but never actually raced. reference was made to this in a 750MC mag, but i cannot find it. The same publication suggested that a car was fitted with the Bellamy (used by Allard) IFS.

 

Thanks for all information recieved, whether known or unknown. I would be delighted to be corrected in any errors!

 

Peter.


Edited by prseagerthomas, 27 October 2013 - 10:22.


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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 16:41

My understanding is that four cars were built in 1924. One was sold to M Bequet in 1925 and fitted with a V8 Hispano-Suiza aero engine, and the others presumably retained by the factory.

Four or posibly five cars were raced in 1925, reportedly all new cars but some perhaps being updated 1924 cars. In 1926 the factory raced three cars, a fourth having been crashed by Carlo Masetti in practice for the Targa Florio with fatal results for the driver and possibly for the car too.

I am not sure how much of the following conflicts with what appears in Fuerza Libre

One of the 1925 team cars was sold to Juan Malcolm in Argentina for 1927, but was in the UK by 1931. It was this car that got the four-cylinder two-stroke Jameson engine, which was subsequently replaced by JAP engines and, in the 1940s, by a V8 Riley Autovia engine. It was last seen in a scrapyard in Scotland in 1975

At least two other cars were raced by Italian amateurs in the late ’20s, but nothing is known of their fates

Per Nás bought his car direct from the factory in 1929, and it was acquired two years later by W B Scott then passed to the Conan-Doyle brothers, who fitted LMB independent front suspension and sleeved the engine down to 1500cc for an unsuccessul attack on voiturette racing. This car reappeared with John Rowley and a 2-litre engine in VSCC racing in the 1950s, and after some time in the USA was repatriated to the UK by Faud Majzub around 1992.

Malcolm is also reported as having two 1924-spec cars in Argentina in 1927, one unsupercharged and the other supercharged. The former found its way to Chile and then the US, and was with Lukas Huni ten years ago. The other was acquired from Argentina in 1991 by Julian Majzub.

A second ex-Chile was reportedly in the US in 1986

Sorry, can't help with numbers

#3 prseagerthomas

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 20:17

Hello David, thank you for your comprehensive reply.

 

One car was certainly built in 1923 and raced in the French GP. The chassis was very different to the 1924/1925 cars, and reputed to be from a 1922 Strasbourg car. This I thought was the  basis of the Becquet. This car does not seem to have a 2LCV chassis.

 

In 1924 only three cars were entered in the French and Spanish GP's, so unless a spare was available, I'd guess only three cars were built.

 

There seem to be many variations in cars raced during 1924.

 

Spa. 1924 cars entered, easily identified by the lack of levers on the end of the brake cross shaft. neither the Majzub nor the Huni car has this cross shaft, suggesting both are 1924 cars. Daniel cabert suggests that only Divo raced in a 1925 spec car.

1925 spec cars also seem to be distinguished by the outboard steering arms. It seems the cars were all rebodied for San Sebastian, with the cambox clearance teardrops being replaced by small blisters, presumably due to a wider radiator and accompanying bonnet.

there must certaily have been 5 1925 chassis' as that crashed by Torchy must have been un-repairable in view of the damage done.

 

The post Jamieson ex-Malcolm history is quite new to me, thank you for that. I wonder if this would be the Forest-Green car shown in Fuerze Libre? An old 750 MC article suggested this was the same car as the Conan-Doyle one, so a mystery cleared up here.

 

Furze Libre suggests the chassis number of the 1925 Malcolm car to be 15347.

 

There appear to have been 3 2LCVs entered for Monza in 1928, only that of Guilio Aymini actually competing. Achille Varzi is meant to have come 7th in Rome that year...

 

In 1929 there were two competitors, including Aymini at Allesandria.

 

The next race I have listed is Brooklands in 1931, the Scott car.

 

Thank you for your help David, you help to confirm details, bring others into question and have provided fresh data.

 

I will have to write to Julian for clarification on the Majzub cars.

 

Peter. 



#4 David McKinney

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:16

Perhaps my figure of four 1924 cars includes the 1923 prototype

Yes, the ex-Malcolm car which became Jameson-engined had passed through Forest-Greene's hands. As mentioned in my earlier post however, the Conan-Doyle car was a different one

Two cars wre non-starters in the 1928 Monza race, which doesn't prove they existed as separate entities :)
Only Aymini's started. Aymini and Valpreda also raced at Alessandria in 1929 and one car was entered, with no driver nominated, in that year's Monza GP. Also in 1929, Albert Broschek raced a car at San Sebastian

I've no idea which of these cars was which, or what happened to any of them

As far as chassis numbers are concerned, apart from the Fuerza Libre reference to Malcolm's 15347, the only number I have ever seen quoted is for the Malcolm/Forest-Greene/Jameson etc car - 4

#5 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 17:44

I believe the Masetti car wasn't damaged much in the accident. Also, I have five entries for San Sebastián in 1924, not three! One DNA, though. And Valpreda raced at Alessandria in 1928 already, presumably in the same car that Varzi later raced at Rome, and perhaps the same also as raced occasionally by Serboli.

One mystery entry I have for a 2LCV is Miramas in early 1925, one Jules de Segovia (or: Julio Segovia?), DNA. Maybe the prototype, before it went to Becquet?? Also, is there any evidence that the Strasbourg car(s) were actually built? I don't recall the source, but I too have Divo alone in a 1925 car at Spa.

Not mentioned so far is the car Filippo Ardizzone raced in the early thirties with one cylinder bank disabled, for 1100cc racing.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 28 October 2013 - 17:52.


#6 prseagerthomas

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 18:10

Michael, your reply, as with David's is exactly the response I had hoped for.

 

I have Morel, Divo and Thomas for San Sebastian 1924.

 

The Filippo Ardizzone car I have not heard of. More information please if you are able, and what is the source?

 

Peter.



#7 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 19:38

San Sebastián:

# 4 Divo
#11 Benoist
#15 Morel
#18 Thomas
#20 N.N. (DNA)

For Ardizzone I have:

1931-04-26, Alessandria: DNA
1931-06-07, Roma/Littorio: 3rd in class
1931-08-16, Acerbo/Pescara: 5th in class
1931-09-06, Monza: DNA
1932-04-24, Roma/Littorio: 6th in class

Main source: A Record of GP & Voiturette Racing, plus bits and pieces here and there (sorry, I'm no good at keeping track of sources :()

As for the Masetti accident, I distinctly recall reading about how the car was almost unscratched, and I think I have seen a picture - maybe it was even discussed on this forum. Have you tried a search?


EDIT: All right, I did a little search myself, and this post http://forums.autosp...26#entry2332932 by respected historian Jean-Marc Giglieux suggests that the Ardizzone car was, in fact, Masetti's!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 28 October 2013 - 20:16.


#8 antonvrs

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:17

I'm looking for information regarding these cars. I already have plenty but am in particular looking for post works information, especially regarding chassis numbers, though of course any information is welcome.

 

I would mention that I have already been in contact with Daniel Cabert and Philippe Schram, who have been most helpful.

 

The following pcture is by courtesy of Philippe and the Le Zebre website. Paul Torchy, 1925 San Sebastian GP.

 

andre20morel20036c20dpriortorace.jpg

 

Surviving cars;

 

I believe the 1923 car survives in re-created form, based around the original chassis. Rebuilt circa 1927 as the Becquet Delage. V8 Hispano engine.

 

I believe Lukas Huni has a 1924 car in partial 1925 form. For the Belgian GP of 1925 three of the cars entered were uprated 1924 cars, supercharged and rebodied.

 

I believe Julian Mazjub has a 1924 car in 'later guise'.

 

I am aware of the history of some cars in Argentina as related in Fuerza Libra, and also of the snippets gleaned from this and other forums.

 

W Scott with the ex-Per Nas car circa 1928, the same car racing at Brooklands and so t'is said, bought by Adrian Conan Doyle and disasterously blown up after sleeving to 1500cc (voiturette size).

 

Probably another car was fitted with the 2-stoke supercharged Jamieson engine and entered with Dudley Froy as driver for a few events, but never actually raced. reference was made to this in a 750MC mag, but i cannot find it. The same publication suggested that a car was fitted with the Bellamy (used by Allard) IFS.

 

Thanks for all information recieved, whether known or unknown. I would be delighted to be corrected in any errors!

 

Peter.

There is video on Jay Leno's website of Lukas Huni at Pebble Beach describing his car and firing up the motor. It was restored when owned by Bob Sutherland some years ago.



#9 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 15:36

Automobile Quarterly Vol 14 no. 2 contains an article by Griffith Borgeson on Delages in competition.  He says that there were four cars at Lyons 1924, three new ones for the race and the 1923 car as a practice 'mule'.  At the end of the section on the 2LCV he says: "If one totals up all the allegedly new 2LCVs mentioned in contemporary press accounts it would seem that eight cars were built in all.   It is more likely, however, that no more than five complete machines really were constructed, the seeming others being explicable as facelifts,  two were sold to private owners in Italy, two in Argentina, and one in Sweden, this latter being brought to England in 1930 by Adrian Conan Doyle".  This was, of course, written in the 1970s.

 

Karl Ludvigsen's the "The V12 Engine" says that the car entered for the 1922 GP de l'ACF (dna) which is often shown as a 2LCV was, in fact a four-cylindar car.  I know nothing of this car.

 

Maurice Planchon, designer of the 2LCV, was sacked by Louis Delage after the failures of 1922 and '23 and Albert Lory appointed in his place.  Borgeson says: "Before the start of the 1924 seasonLory had time to design, build, test and abandon a supercharged straight-eight two-cycle GP engine" before deciding to develop Plancon's V12.  However, Ludvigsen implies that Delage experimented with the eight-cylinder two-stroke before building th V12 in 1923.



#10 prseagerthomas

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 17:40

Roger, thank you for the extracts from Automobile Quarterly. Older material must always be considered since in that period, many original memories might be put down on paper. I have a pretty open mind about the whole project. A fact may be confirmed perhaps half a dozen times, but if the confirmations all have the same source, they are open to debate.

 

Eight cars is entirely possible, though I fully believe there were only four official identities. It seems likely that the Benoist car in 1924 at San Sebastian shared the same registration as its 1925 counterpart. I don't think the 1925 spec cars were facelifts. The chassis' were different, as were the bodies. I have read (!) that there were lubrication problems with the 1924 spec engines, leading to a redesign for 1925.

It would be interesting to compare details of the blown engine in the Turin museum and the unblown examples in the two existing complete cars.

 

I had not heard of the 2-stroke engine. Somewhere I have details of an Itala FWD two stroke. I imagine many were experimenting with such ideas at the time.

 

Thanks again for all contributions.

 

Peter.



#11 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:03

I had not heard of the 2-stroke engine. Somewhere I have details of an Itala FWD two stroke. I imagine many were experimenting with such ideas at the time.

Thanks again for all contributions.

Peter.

I don't know about a two-stroke Itala though they did build (but not race) a front wheel drive V12 for the 1926-27 formula. Fiat built (but didn't race) a six-cylinder, twelve-piston two-stroke at the same time.

Edited by Roger Clark, 30 October 2013 - 10:04.


#12 prseagerthomas

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:30

I knew I'd read something somewhere.

 

http://forums.autosp...m-the-twenties/

 

Not a two stroke, but the charge introduced by the piston uncovering ports. Another reference suggests that the blower(s) fed the crankcase. Hmmm.

 

Peter.



#13 humphries

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 16:03

Just a few extra details.
 
Aymini finished 3rd in his class in his 2LCV at the Susa-Moncensio hillclimb on 8.7.1928.
 
Ardizzone in his modified car finished  6th in class at Pontidecimo-Giovi on 28.06.1931, and 4th in class at Susa-Moncensio on 5.7.1931; in both cases slowest in the class.
 
A query - but didn't Valpreda attain 2nd place overall in his 2LCV at the IV Circuito di Pozzo, Verona on 2.6.1929? This was by far the best result for this car whilst in private hands.
 
This race has been classified by some as a sports car race but the entry list would suggest it may have been for F.Libre as were the first three editions. Photo evidence would help.

Edited by humphries, 30 October 2013 - 16:04.


#14 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:04

The Delage 2 LCV was raced from 1923 to 1925, while in 1926 and 27 Delage raced the 15-S-8

Where was the 2 LCV raced in 1926 (except T.F.) and 1927 and entered by whom?


Edited by Hans Etzrodt, 03 November 2013 - 03:40.


#15 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:26

Posted by David McKinney on Oct-27: Also in 1929, Albert Broschek raced a car at San Sebastian.

 

At the 1929 San Sebastian Grand Prix, Albert Broschek raced his T35B Bugatti, not a Delage as reported in some places.


Edited by Hans Etzrodt, 03 November 2013 - 04:34.


#16 David McKinney

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 06:08

Thanks Hans. That makes more sense

#17 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 17:09

The Delage 2 LCV was raced from 1923 to 1925, while in 1926 and 27 Delage raced the 15-S-8
Where was the 2 LCV raced in 1926 (except T.F.) and 1927 and entered by whom?


1926 Spanish GP, and I believe Wagner won at La Baule in one. Presumably works entries, all. Don't know about '27.

#18 prseagerthomas

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 18:54

1927. Edmond Bourlier took part in the following hillclimbs.

 

Mont-Agel  4th

La Turbie    1st

 

He was also entered for the La Camp event, but whether he competed I do not know. Since Bourlier was a works driver at the time, it seems likely that the car was in fact a works entry. There is of course evidence that the 2LCVs were at about this time being sold off.

 

Peter.